Why I am not a vegan

[Matt1]

Self-awareness is perfectly obtainable in a 2nd density vehicle. And whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, our current food system is creating plenty of 3rd density harvestable entities within a slave system. This is not my favorite thing.

Can you imagine an entity of 4th density to look upon us humans and say, "I am unable to project compassion upon these lesser ones, as compassion is of 4th density and these beings are of third."?

Self awareness is only available once second density entities reach 3rd density, this has already been shown previously. You can still be compassionate and thankful for the service animals give by providing fuel for the body complex. Many enlightened cultures such as Shamans eat meats in the context of rituals.

These actions are not mutually exclusive, and your definition of "torture" differs from mine.

I agree, there cannot be considered a universal view about such things but only ones developed by personal catalyst.

Most laws facilitate a "look the other way" mentality, like all the ag-gag laws that make it illegal for vigilantes to go undercover to expose abuse. Those who expose the abuse are considered the criminals. If you don't think animals are tortured in our food system, I would bet that Monica has a few hours of footage that can show you what hell looks like.

This isn't about vigilantes , lets keep it in context. You are confusing 3rd density catalyst, with 2nd density. The processing of Animal is logically as I have previously mentioned monitored by laws which makes sure that any unnecessary suffering is limited.

I agree that everyone is unique and benefits from different paths, but our closest biological relatives eat very, very little meat. "Needing" meat is purely psychological, shoot "needing" food can be considered psychological, too. It does very well to examine how many hours of our lives we've been bribed with delicious images of food telling us what to eat (advertisements) and then the secondary effect of family equating food with comfort. The threads run deep.

Yes its logical that we are all unique and have unique diets. Sure fast food ads can cause problems, however good produce is not in the same category as this. I am not talking about biological relatives, I am talking about human beings, in 3rd density.

Sure, but I don't think this is the case for everyone. When I feel the need to consume I just prefer to consume things that reflect the highest level of energy back at me, and dead bloodless animal tissue doesn't do it for me. Sure, it used to, but there was no denial of any part of myself when I gave up meat (considering our most recent primal nature does not descend from carnivores). If you felt as if you were denying yourself when you attempting veg, this is reflective of your own belief systems. I eat what I want, when I want, and every meal surprises me with how delicious it is. Whatever you feel you deserve to consume is your own path to decide.

Yes, everyone has unique catalyst that we work with and learn to accept/balance. If one does not have the desire towards meat produce then so be it, if one does then its an fully natural experience and development in 3rd density for that individual.

[AnthroHeart]

Grabbing pigs by their back legs and slamming their head into the ground doesn't sound like limited suffering to me.

[Matt1]

Grabbing pigs by their back legs and slamming their head into the ground doesn't sound like limited suffering to me.

Doesn't sound like that method is accepted by regulations/law.

[Monica]

Yes Animals are only moving towards self awareness,

Apparently you've never had a dog or cat...? and apparently you haven't watched the videos...their self-awareness is obvious.

Did you know that more and more video footage is becoming available of animals showing compassion towards other animals?

Yeah, no kidding! Swans feeding goldfish...bears saving drowning birds...birds picking up human trash and putting it in the trash can...dogs trying to put a dying fish back into the water...cows helping other cows escape or drink water...rats would rather give up food than cause suffering to other rats...rats help other rats before feeding themselves...the list goes on and on.

There are LOTS of incidents like these being caught on camera. Not only are animals self-aware, but some of them are becoming increasingly aware of other animals too, even across species!

Ask any psychologist: It is well known that even human children aren't very aware of others. Toddlers go through the 'me me me' phase which any mother knows is the age of self-awareness and selfishness. Toddlers are notorious for being very self-centered and must be taught to share.

These animals are demonstrating more self-awareness than human toddlers!

It is well documented. I started a thread about it awhile back: Animals Helping Other Animals or something like that. (Or maybe it was the '2D Animals Evolving'...not sure.)

they haven't yet reached the level of 3rd density, and cannot therefore be considered to be at that vibrational level of awareness of thought/emotion, as you or i.

Doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that they have a nervous system and pain receptors. They feel pain and they feel emotions. I started a thread about that too: Something about the complex emotions of animals. This demonstrates self-awareness.

I assume most of those videos are highly bias.

No, not at all. Only commentary can have bias. There is very little commentary. It's simple video footage.

Videos can't be biased. Watch the videos and see for yourself if you don't believe me!

This doesn't directly relate to torture , the farm animals here simply stay in open fields and go through a strict process that is over seen and regulated.

That is rapidly changing. Here in the US, and in other countries too, more and more family farms are being bought by big corporations, and millions of animals are literally tortured - yes tortured - on a daily basis. Please watch the videos and open your eyes.

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[Monica]

Doesn't sound like that method is accepted by regulations/law.

It is absolutely accepted and in fact is normal procedure. What's more, there are laws prohibiting people from documenting and reporting abuses. Even more heinous, farm animals are exempt from animal cruelty laws. In other words, someone can go to prison for abusing a dog, but farmers can abuse cows, pigs and chickens all they want, without fear of penalty. It's standard practice.

It's impossible to understand unless you actually SEE it. The videos will show you what I'm talking about.

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[Monica]

Self awareness is only available once second density entities reach 3rd density, this has already been shown previously.  

Tell that to my cats and dogs, or to the swans feeding the goldfish, or the bear who rescued that bird.

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[AnthroHeart]

My dog killed and ate part of a cat once. He killed another that he didn't eat.

Is this cruel action from a self-aware being?

[Monica]

My dog killed and ate part of a cat once. He killed another that he didn't eat.

Is this cruel action from a self-aware being?

Probably not, since killing other animals for food is still part of the dog's instinct. Domesticated dogs and cats are rather confused, I think, because they still have the instinct to hunt, but don't need to hunt anymore because we feed them kibble. So they hunt, but don't quite know what to do with their prey, so they end up playing with the dead animal.

Self-awareness has to happen before compassion. Your dog is self-aware, but hasn't yet developed compassion for the cat.

Some animals are developing awareness of others, even compassion, as shown in those videos of the swans, bears, etc. but those are exceptional. I just mentioned that to show that animals are capable of not only self-awareness (criteria for 3D) but even some compassion (criteria for 4D) in some instances. So it simply isn't accurate to say that they don't have self-awareness when some are even going beyond self-awareness and showing awareness of and consideration for others as well.

They still do have some animal instinct too though, so I don't think it's cruelty when their 'animal' nature comes out, as it did with your dog. It's a mixture.

I suppose it's possible, though. Since some are displaying compassion and love, then it stands to reason that some might intentionally be cruel.

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[Minyatur]

This is Ra's description of the Law of One, I don't see how any action could be considered as disonant with the Law of One (although like any other I do have my own biases in responding to others' words/actions). The judge is the self as a relative window unto the Creator of Himself among infinite other windows. All things will be forgiven with time as it will be known that there never was something to forgive.

When Ra says not consonant with the Law of One, I do see that as not consonant with one's relative view of it.

Well gosh, why bother reading the rest of the book? It's all summed up right there. The fact that you left out 99.99% of Ra's words...nah...doesn't matter.

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Because the quotes you had that supported your own distortions that were consonant with some of Ra's didn't leave out 99,99% of the material?

[Monica]

Because the quotes you had that supported your own distortions that were consonant with some of Ra's didn't leave out 99,99% of the material?

You misunderstand. I don't cherry-pick selected quotes to support a preconceived idea. When discussing complex issues such as this, I have gone to great lengths to include all the relevant quotes together. Does this mean that I never miss anything? No, of course not. I sometimes miss quotes and am delighted when others find them. Does this mean that my own interpretation is THE 'Truth' or THE only valid interpretation? No again.

But an example of what I mean by taking multiple quotes into consideration, in order to form a more well-rounded analysis, is this:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=10590

This is just an example, about a particular topic.

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[Matt1]

Apparently you've never had a dog or cat...? and apparently you haven't watched the videos...their self-awareness is obvious.

Did you know that more and more video footage is becoming available of animals showing compassion towards other animals?

Yeah, no kidding! Swans feeding goldfish...bears saving drowning birds...birds picking up human trash and putting it in the trash can...dogs trying to put a dying fish back into the water...cows helping other cows escape or drink water...rats would rather give up food than cause suffering to other rats...rats help other rats before feeding themselves...the list goes on and on.

There are LOTS of incidents like these being caught on camera. Not only are animals self-aware, but some of them are becoming increasingly aware of other animals too, even across species!

Ask any psychologist: It is well known that even human children aren't very aware of others. Toddlers go through the 'me me me' phase which any mother knows is the age of self-awareness and selfishness. Toddlers are notorious for being very self-centered and must be taught to share.

These animals are demonstrating more self-awareness than human toddlers!

It is well documented. I started a thread about it awhile back: Animals Helping Other Animals or something like that. (Or maybe it was the '2D Animals Evolving'...not sure.)

I used to have a Dog, he was disabled and we had to carry him places. I was fond of him. However this is similar to the idea of 4th density entities working directly with 3rd density. In such a case we help the animals grow and progress. This cannot be said about all animals outside of domesticated house pets.  
Those aren't signs of true self awareness, any animal can go pick up something and move it about. I am not talking about toddlers nor have I heard that as a proven psychological fact. I am talking directly about the eating of meat and self awareness. Being self centred doesn't make a toddler on par with the consciousness of an animal.

Doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that they have a nervous system and pain receptors. They feel pain and they feel emotions. I started a thread about that too: Something about the complex emotions of animals. This demonstrates self-awareness.

Animals can feel pain I agree, however the process for killing animals for food as I have said is regulated here to cause the minimum degree of suffering possible. The emotional awareness of an animal, cannot be the same as an entity in 3rd density, else they would not be a 2nd density entity.

No, not at all. Only commentary can have bias. There is very little commentary. It's simple video footage.

Videos can't be biased. Watch the videos and see for yourself if you don't believe me!

Videos can be edited and directed in certain ways to be biased, this is fairly obvious.

That is rapidly changing. Here in the US, and in other countries too, more and more family farms are being bought by big corporations, and millions of animals are literally tortured - yes tortured - on a daily basis. Please watch the videos and open your eyes.

We still have many family farms here in the UK. If there is an issue with the processing of animals, then the regulations simply need a changing or farms given an audit to allow for the best methods to be used. I am sure this happens in most countries. Normally if you have a business in that type of sector you will have laws and regulations to work with.

It is absolutely accepted and in fact is normal procedure. What's more, there are laws prohibiting people from documenting and reporting abuses. Even more heinous, farm animals are exempt from animal cruelty laws. In other words, someone can go to prison for abusing a dog, but farmers can abuse cows, pigs and chickens all they want, without fear of penalty. It's standard practice.

It's impossible to understand unless you actually SEE it. The videos will show you what I'm talking about.

I have watched your PETA videos. The processing of the animals in those video does seem some what over the top, in the UK I don't believe we have those methods. I can see farm animals in fields not far from my house. They stay there mostly all the time. Until they are taken for butchering. However that doesn't stop the eating of free ranged and organic meats as a better means to the mass farming processing.

Self awareness is only available once second density entities reach 3rd density, this has already been shown previously.  

People see only what they which to see in those videos rather than any direct acts of self awareness in the 3rd density sense. House pets are of a higher incarnation or sub density of 2nd density who are close to moving onto 3rd, thus work directly with humans.

Monica, here is a direct question. Do you think someone can graduate into 4th density from 3rd density while eating meats and not being a vegetation or vegan?  

[Minyatur]

Because the quotes you had that supported your own distortions that were consonant with some of Ra's didn't leave out 99,99% of the material?

You misunderstand. I don't cherry-pick selected quotes to support a preconceived idea. When discussing complex issues such as this, I have gone to great lengths to include all the relevant quotes together. Does this mean that I never miss anything? No, of course not. I sometimes miss quotes and am delighted when others find them. Does this mean that my own interpretation is THE 'Truth' or THE only valid interpretation? No again.

But an example of what I mean by taking multiple quotes into consideration, in order to form a more well-rounded analysis, is this:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=10590

This is just an example, about a particular topic.

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I don't remember anyone refuting the quotes you posted. (didn't read every threads/posts)

We all are sensitive over different things, that's what I am trying to convey.

[Matt1]

Because the quotes you had that supported your own distortions that were consonant with some of Ra's didn't leave out 99,99% of the material?

You misunderstand. I don't cherry-pick selected quotes to support a preconceived idea. When discussing complex issues such as this, I have gone to great lengths to include all the relevant quotes together. Does this mean that I never miss anything? No, of course not. I sometimes miss quotes and am delighted when others find them. Does this mean that my own interpretation is THE 'Truth' or THE only valid interpretation? No again.

But an example of what I mean by taking multiple quotes into consideration, in order to form a more well-rounded analysis, is this:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=10590

This is just an example, about a particular topic.

...

Minty and i have used different quotes in context today here. Not just one little point. That surely has as much merit as your post and quotes right?

[Monica]

I used to have a Dog, he was disabled and we had to carry him places. I was fond of him. However this is similar to the idea of 4th density entities working directly with 3rd density. In such a case we help the animals grow and progress. This cannot be said about all animals outside of domesticated house pets.

How do you know that? Have you never looked wild animals in the eyes and seen their soul?

Those aren't signs of true self awareness, any animal can go pick up something and move it about.

LOL! Animals have self-awareness, but many humans don't notice. Just like white 'slave owners' didn't notice that the black 'slaves' were aware and intelligent.

I am not talking about toddlers nor have I heard that as a proven psychological fact. I am talking directly about the eating of meat and self awareness. Being self centred doesn't make a toddler on par with the consciousness of an animal.

It's hard to comprehend that animals are sentient, isn't it? Hard to break through societal conditioning that says animals are just 'things' to be used by humans. It's just speciesism that makes it hard.

The older generation paved the way towards eliminating racism. It isn't eliminated yet, but we've made great progress.

It's up to us to do the same with speciesism.

Yes, studies have indeed shown, quite irrefutably, that many animals are just as smart as human toddlers. They are capable of rational thought and even abstract thought! Plus, complex emotions and the ability to form friendships and social structures far beyond mere 'instinct.' They even have been shown to care about others and even sacrifice themselves for the sake of others!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mza1EQ6aLdg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwLdhn0aY...Ia2TFFkDZ3

Animals can feel pain I agree,

What, do you suppose, would be the purpose of having pain receptors if there isn't any awareness to register the pain?  :idea:

however the process for killing animals for food as I have said is regulated here to cause the minimum degree of suffering possible.

Maybe in some areas, maybe where you live, but not in the US. And even if it was, that doesn't make it ok to needlessly kill them.

Also, a lot of that is propaganda. For example, many people mistakenly believe that the 'kosher' label means less cruelty. Not so.

The emotional awareness of an animal, cannot be the same as an entity in 3rd density, else they would not be a 2nd density entity.

It doesn't matter whether they have the 'same level' of awareness as 3D entities. What matters is that they DO have awareness!

Videos can be edited and directed in certain ways to be biased, this is fairly obvious.

It's so much more convenient to assume that they are just CGI.

I am sure this happens in most countries.

Sadly, no.

People see only what they which to see in those videos rather than any direct acts of self awareness in the 3rd density sense.

?? Not sure what you mean. The animals in those videos are being horribly tortured. It's quite obvious. They are struggling to get away, wailing, moaning, and showing many obvious signs of distress. Why should it matter whether they are dogs or cows? Cruelty is cruelty.

House pets are of a higher incarnation or sub density of 2nd density who are close to moving onto 3rd, thus work directly with humans.

Maybe some are. That doesn't make it ok to needlessly kill other animal who obviously want to live, or to rape and torture them, raising huge numbers of them only to rape and torture more of them. It's obscene. We're not having a contest here. It doesn't matter whether dogs are 'more highly evolved' than cows. What matters is that cows have self awareness and complex emotions, and they feel pain and fear. That's all we need to know. End of story.

Monica, here is a direct question. Do you think someone can graduate into 4th density from 3rd density while eating meats and not being a vegetation or vegan?  

If they did so unconsciously, then yes, surely. But once they are aware of the cruelty and do so anyway, then their callous disregard for the suffering of others, and intentional contribution to that suffering, would surely affect polarity, just as any other callous disregard would affect polarity. Would it affect it enough to inhibit harvestability? That's not for me to say. No one can assess the harvestability of another.

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[Monica]

Self Awareness is of 3rd density, not second.

Self-awareness is perfectly obtainable in a 2nd density vehicle. And whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, our current food system is creating plenty of 3rd density harvestable entities within a slave system. This is not my favorite thing.

Can you imagine an entity of 4th density to look upon us humans and say, "I am unable to project compassion upon these lesser ones, as compassion is of 4th density and these beings are of third."?

We are not torturing second density animals, we are using them as a food source to fuel the body.

These actions are not mutually exclusive, and your definition of "torture" differs from mine.

If one was to torture an animal it would be consider animal abuse by law in most countries, this isn't the case.

Most laws facilitate a "look the other way" mentality, like all the ag-gag laws that make it illegal for vigilantes to go undercover to expose abuse. Those who expose the abuse are considered the criminals. If you don't think animals are tortured in our food system, I would bet that Monica has a few hours of footage that can show you what hell looks like.

The humans are unique i wouldn't over generalize in saying that nobody will benefit from eating a meat based diet. Sure you can be Veggie or Vegan and survive, that doesn't mean it will work for every bodies unique needs.

I agree that everyone is unique and benefits from different paths, but our closest biological relatives eat very, very little meat. "Needing" meat is purely psychological, shoot "needing" food can be considered psychological, too. It does very well to examine how many hours of our lives we've been bribed with delicious images of food telling us what to eat (advertisements) and then the secondary effect of family equating food with comfort. The threads run deep.

Could the rejectment of enjoying meat be consider not accepting and experiencing a part of the self?

Sure, but I don't think this is the case for everyone. When I feel the need to consume I just prefer to consume things that reflect the highest level of energy back at me, and dead bloodless animal tissue doesn't do it for me. Sure, it used to, but there was no denial of any part of myself when I gave up meat (considering our most recent primal nature does not descend from carnivores). If you felt as if you were denying yourself when you attempting veg, this is reflective of your own belief systems. I eat what I want, when I want, and every meal surprises me with how delicious it is. Whatever you feel you deserve to consume is your own path to decide.

All very well said, Jade!

[Matt1]

How do you know that? Have you never looked wild animals in the eyes and seen their soul?

I have farms here and I have had a pet before. I have looked into the eyes of animals.

LOL! Animals have self-awareness, but many humans don't notice. Just like white 'slave owners' didn't notice that the black 'slaves' were aware and intelligent.

Your using an exterm example out side of the context of the debate to justify your point. I am not talking about slave owners, I am talking about animals being used for food. That's like saying because a police officer pulls you over for speeding, that makes him/her a Nazi. Its not logically to jump to such exterms to try to justify an argument. You still haven't given any direct academic proof that animals are self aware like Human beings are. Ra disagrees with that statement(animals are self aware like humans) as I have previously shown. This was shown within the contexts of the all of the material and not just picking one simple quote out of context, as you previously put it.

It's hard to comprehend that animals are sentient, isn't it? Hard to break through societal conditioning that says animals are just 'things' to be used by humans. It's just speciesism that makes it hard.

The older generation paved the way towards eliminating racism. It isn't eliminated yet, but we've made great progress.

It's up to us to do the same with speciesism.

Yes, studies have indeed shown, quite irrefutably, that many animals are just as smart as human toddlers. They are capable of rational thought and even abstract thought! Plus, complex emotions and the ability to form friendships and social structures far beyond mere 'instinct.' They even have been shown to care about others and even sacrifice themselves for the sake of others!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mza1EQ6aLdg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwLdhn0aY...Ia2TFFkDZ3

Again, your bringing in subjects that have nothing to do with this topic. I have previously pointed this out above, so I won't do it again. Those videos aren't real scientific studies that have been accepted. One video is someone’s bias view and the other is a short experiment by the BBC. The Toddler was able to pick the ball up because that's the natural functioning of a human being. I am sure if you asked any scientist to compare the biological human/toddler vs the animal, you will obviously find which shows true self awareness. Not simply a growth towards it. After all it took us billions of years to reach that point.

What, do you suppose, would be the purpose of having pain receptors if there isn't any awareness to register the pain?

There is limited awareness in all things , I think that's a fairly standard understanding in the Law of One. However you have different degrees of awareness. Self awareness as I am talking about it, is a 3rd density vibrational complex. Second density is simply moving towards it but it takes a very long time.

Sadly, no.

It does happen here.

?? Not sure what you mean. The animals in those videos are being horribly tortured. It's quite obvious. They are struggling to get away, wailing, moaning, and showing many obvious signs of distress. Why should it matter whether they are dogs or cows? Cruelty is cruelty.

I am saying that a Dog is a domesticated house pet that has reached the higher sub density of second moving onto 3rd. Farm animals are not of that level of vibration. The video does show more intensive farming methods, I have already explained that over here we have better regulations and things can be regulated better.

Maybe some are. That doesn't make it ok to needlessly kill other animal who obviously want to live, or to rape and torture them, raising huge numbers of them only to rape and torture more of them. It's obscene. We're not having a contest here. It doesn't matter whether dogs are 'more highly evolved' than cows. What matters is that cows have self awareness and complex emotions, and they feel pain and fear. That's all we need to know. End of story.

Nobody is raping animals or torturing them. They are being processed to be used as a food source. Cows do not have the same self awareness or the same level of emotion complex as a higher vibrational entity. I agree we are not having a contest, we are using common sense and logical based on the teachings of Ra. Which I have empirically proven to show the difference between the vibrational rates of animals and humans. That's not all we need to know, we can takes things into the context of the teachings of the Law of One and logically see the difference in the densities and evolutions of entities, as I have been doing.

If they did so unconsciously, then yes, surely. But once they are aware of the cruelty and do so anyway, then their callous disregard for the suffering of others, and intentional contribution to that suffering, would surely affect polarity, just as any other callous disregard would affect polarity. Would it affect it enough to inhibit harvestability? That's not for me to say. No one can assess the harvestability of another.

So if someone ate animals without the awareness of your view point on the suffering of animals, they could reach 4th density. Once they are aware of the view point you have and others who share similar distortions, it would affect there polarity of being STO. Based upon the teachings of Ra and the 51% sto polarity, it would be logically for some room for distortions. If one wishes to enjoy meats with full knowledge of the process, I don't consider this to be harmful for reaching 4th density. We can take into consideration that its logically that many who have ate meats and will continue to do so, will have enough polarity to reach 4th density if they have reached that level of STO as stated by Ra. It is well know that Ra even recommended the eating of Meat at one point in the text. I understand that it cannot be said to be true for everyone. But for those who wish to eat meat, it doesn't seem to have any major effects against polarity, nor did Ra seem to have any major issue with it. I am not simply saying that “just because Ra said its so, its ok” as this isn't taking the material out of context, nor is it picking a few simple quotes, its taking into consider all of the material and the logical of what is taught.

[Monica]

I have farms here and I have had a pet before. I have looked into the eyes of animals.

Then I don't see how you could have missed it. I guess the same way the white 'slave owners' missed the awareness of the black 'slaves.'

Your using an exterm example out side of the context of the debate to justify your point. I am not talking about slave owners, I am talking about animals being used for food. That's like saying because a police officer pulls you over for speeding, that makes him/her a Nazi. Its not logically to jump to such exterms to try to justify an argument. You still haven't given any direct academic proof that animals are self aware like Human beings are. Ra disagrees with that statement(animals are self aware like humans) as I have previously shown. This was shown within the contexts of the all of the material and not just picking one simple quote out of context, as you previously put it.

Funny how you use the word 'extreme' to distance animals from humans. What I'm hearing you say is: It's ok to murder animals all we want, but we cannot ever dare to compare their suffering to the suffering of humans! Never! No, humans are above animals...humans are exceptional...there is a clear boundary between lowly animals and 'higher' humans. It's obvious that killing a human is heinous, reprehensible, but killing an animal is A-ok, all because Ra said animals are 2D and humans are 3D. Ah, that explains it!

Never mind that Ra explained that there are sub-densities.

Never mind that we fancy ourselves more like 4D entities than primitive cavemen.

Never mind that humans are a lot more like cows, than cows are like carrots.

Again, your bringing in subjects that have nothing to do with this topic. I have previously pointed this out above, so I won't do it again. Those videos aren't real scientific studies that have been accepted. One video is someone’s bias view and the other is a short experiment by the BBC.

I realize that the videos are painful to watch, so I really do understand why you are trying so hard to deny that they're real. It makes us feel better to think that such atrocities aren't actually commonplace, but only isolated incidents.

But, sadly, that's just not true. You are new to this and just don't know. Don't take my word for it; see for yourself if you don't believe me. Those short videos are only 1 minute long each just to make it more convenient for people to get educated. There are many, many, MANY THOUSANDS of hours of video footage exactly like that.

It's naive to expect 'scientific studies' because scientific studies cost millions of dollars and even with money, factory farms would never allow researchers to waltz in with cameras and document how they operate. In fact, there are 'Ag-Gag' laws that prohibit documentation of what happens at factory farms and abolitionists have gone to jail for sneaking in and doing it anyway!

Can you imagine if people had had video cameras back in WWII and filmed the atrocities of the holocaust, and you said "Oh that can't be true because the Nazis didn't do a scientific study"? Do you see how absurd that is?

The Toddler was able to pick the ball up because that's the natural functioning of a human being. I am sure if you asked any scientist to compare the biological human/toddler vs the animal, you will obviously find which shows true self awareness. Not simply a growth towards it. After all it took us billions of years to reach that point.

Scientists have done just that, and have found that dogs and pigs have the intelligence and awareness of a human toddler. They have also found that pigs are smarter than dogs.

There is limited awareness in all things , I think that's a fairly standard understanding in the Law of One. However you have different degrees of awareness. Self awareness as I am talking about it, is a 3rd density vibrational complex. Second density is simply moving towards it but it takes a very long time.

It takes a very long time, and animals are at the end of that process, just as some humans are at the end of 3D.

I am saying that a Dog is a domesticated house pet that has reached the higher sub density of second moving onto 3rd. Farm animals are not of that level of vibration.

What are you basing on? How did you decide that dogs are at a higher level of vibration than pigs?

That is completely arbitrary. Did you know that they eat dogs in China? Yes, in China, dogs are farm animals!

Did you know that some people have pigs as pets?

See, the line blurs. It's not so neatly demarcated as you think.

The video does show more intensive farming methods, I have already explained that over here we have better regulations and things can be regulated better.

Well that's very nice but irrelevant because no one ever said that all farms are like that. The point is that big corporations are rapidly buying up family farms and turning them into factory farms. This is to supply the rapidly growing human population's demand for meat and dairy. The only way they can keep up with demand is to convert family farms into factory farms. It's happening all over the world. Maybe not yet in your area, but that means nothing. It IS happening!

Nobody is raping animals or torturing them.

Rape is the violent penetration into the vagina of a female, against her will. Dairy cows are routinely raped in order to impregnate them. They must have a baby in order to make milk, see? This is done again and again, every year.

MILK = RAPE

They are being processed to be used as a food source.

Oh so that makes it ok? Because...humans like the taste of bacon?

Our primitive ancestors had to hunt in order to survive. But the bottom line is that we no longer need to eat animals to survive.

THAT is the difference! If it was a survival issue, then sure. But it's not. It's simply an issue of "But I like bacon!"

You might justify killing an animal for survival, but you can't justify killing him/her just because you like the taste of his/her flesh or the taste of her milk. (Yes, the dairy industry is the flip side of the meat industry...they both support the other, so consuming dairy is exactly the same as consuming meat, in terms of supporting the industry.)

You can't have it both ways. Either we're still cavemen and still need to go out hunting and behave like animals (those lowly 2D beings) OR we are evolving to 4D.

Humans can't do both. Humans must make a choice: Stay stuck in the lifestyle of a caveman, or wake up and rise up into 4D.

Which I have empirically proven to show the difference between the vibrational rates of animals and humans. That's not all we need to know, we can takes things into the context of the teachings of the Law of One and logically see the difference in the densities and evolutions of entities, as I have been doing.

Where did you do that? I must've missed it.

So if someone ate animals without the awareness of your view point on the suffering of animals, they could reach 4th density.

Until recent decades, societal conditioning taught that animals didn't have much consciousness. That's what people thought. But remember, societal conditioning also taught that blacks were sub-human, just like animals. And it also taught that human children were to be 'seen and not heard.'

That's the way it was, until recently. Our great-grandparents probably never even questioned these things. Some older people still alive today still think blacks are lower than whites! Even some younger people are still stuck in racism, even today! Look at what just happened with the gay marriage thing. Look at all the bigotry.  My own brother still cannot comprehend why anyone would want a dog or cat because, to him, they are just 'things.' My brother is also a racist and a homophobe. Yet my brother is an otherwise 'good' person and would go out of his way to help humans, even black humans, while secretly thinking he's above them.

It's selective compassion, cognitive dissonance. My brother's brain just isn't wired to understand the contradiction. He thinks he's a very good person. He shows wonderful compassion, love and service, but only selectively; only to those he deems worthy. If anyone ever pointed out to him that he's a racist bigot homophobe, he'd probably be very offended. Or maybe not. He might actually be proud of it! He's of a very low mentality where he still thinks being bigoted is normal! :exclamation:

So, is he harvestable? I have no idea!

Maybe he is doing the best he can, given his limitations. Maybe learning to be compassionate to white humans is already a big step for him. Maybe he has reached the 51% threshold, and the other 49% will kick in once he creates new neuropathways in his brain which can accommodate expanded thinking.

This is all speculation, since we don't have the perspective to assess the harvestability of another person.

Once they are aware of the view point you have and others who share similar distortions, it would affect there polarity of being STO. Based upon the teachings of Ra and the 51% sto polarity, it would be logically for some room for distortions. If one wishes to enjoy meats with full knowledge of the process, I don't consider this to be harmful for reaching 4th density.

My brother could never comprehend the Law of One. That's just where he's at. But we are talking about people who have, presumably, studied the Law of One, and, what's more, claim to be 6D Wanderers!!! If people think they are 6D Wanderers and yet still think it's ok to not only ignore, but to actually contribute to the extreme cruelty of higher 2D beings - beings who feel pain and fear and are intelligent and have complex emotions - beings that Ra has answered the call of! - then, in my humble opinion, they are deluded. Either they aren't really Wanders at all and completely miss the whole point of the Law of One, OR they are simply stuck in the muck and don't even recognize their own denial.

It is well know that Ra even recommended the eating of Meat at one point in the text.

No, that is a myth. A popular myth.

Ra never recommended the eating of meat. When asked about diet in general, Ra said plant foods, and 'animal products' to the extent necessary for individual metabolism.

Notice that animal products doesn't necessarily mean meat. It could mean eggs or milk. Ra always chose their words carefully, so there's a reason they chose animal products instead of meat.

Furthermore, Ra gave a qualifier, a condition: to the extent necessary. It's obvious that this means: If it isn't necessary, don't do it. Ra acknowledged that humans are in transition away from the caveman practice of killing animals, into the 4D-5D practice of drinking nectar for nourishment. We can't get from Point A to Point B instantly. It's a process. We can't expect to keep killing animals, like cavemen, and then suddenly go POOF and get to 4D and drink nectar. A logical process would be to quit eating animals, but only eat plants and animal products, then quit eating animal products altogether, then eat only plants, and then eventually, only fruit, and then go from fruit to nectar.

Yet people here - self-professed 6D Wanderers - argue that they must still eat animals, like cavemen! Then they expect to go POOF and drink nectar???

The only time Ra used the word meat was when asked about Carla's diet, specifically in regards to a particular condition she was dealing with. I think it was allergies, as I recall. But Ra didn't advise Carla to eat meat. Rather, Ra knew that Carla already ate meat! That is a very important distinction that is frequently missed: Carla already ate meat, so Ra was working with her where she was at, and did what Ra always did: Answer the specific question only, without telling her what to do. Ra never gave us rules, like a religion. Ra simply answered questions, always choosing their words carefully so as to preserve free will. Don't you think Ra knows that humans are in the transition away from eating meat? Of course Ra knows that! But Ra couldn't explicitly say "Don't eat meat" because then it would have been a rule, and Ra never gave any rules; only concepts in direct response to questions. Ra never explicitly said "Don't murder humans" either, but that doesn't mean Ra endorsed the murdering of humans! Ra only answered questions!

[Diana]

LOL! Animals have self-awareness, but many humans don't notice. Just like white 'slave owners' didn't notice that the black 'slaves' were aware and intelligent.

Your using an exterm example out side of the context of the debate to justify your point. I am not talking about slave owners, I am talking about animals being used for food. That's like saying because a police officer pulls you over for speeding, that makes him/her a Nazi. Its not logically to jump to such exterms to try to justify an argument. You still haven't given any direct academic proof that animals are self aware like Human beings are. Ra disagrees with that statement(animals are self aware like humans) as I have previously shown. This was shown within the contexts of the all of the material and not just picking one simple quote out of context, as you previously put it.

Why is this an extreme example? Analogies are used to illustrate ideas, when using the subject matter doesn't work. For many people, only human concerns touch them. So making an analogy to humans seems to often be the only way to make some people see the bigger picture.

Those videos aren't real scientific studies that have been accepted. One video is someone’s bias view and the other is a short experiment by the BBC.

It's true that videos, documentaries, and studies can be slanted toward the maker's bias or mandate from the money. But anyone with eyesight can see the suffering food animals go through. And even if they didn't suffer all that much while living (some cows are free range grazers and left on their own until it's time to slaughter), then they still must be slaughtered to be used as meat. Either a person cares about that, or they don't. 

And who cares if it's not accepted? Accepted by whom? There was a time when being accepted by "authorities" or being peer-reviewed mattered and maintained a standard, but not anymore. In the U.S. the meat and dairy industries have great lobbying, marketing, and who-knows-what behind-the-scenes power. I commend any filmmakers who try to expose the truth in a sea of corruption and deception. And I'm sure the U.S. is not the only country corrupted by power. 

 

Do you think someone can graduate into 4th density from 3rd density while eating meats and not being a vegetation or vegan?  

I personally don't care about that. Why should I? I am where I am. Awareness is not something one can force. According to Ra, if a human has not polarized a sufficient amount, then they haven't and apparently won't be harvestable. Just as no one here can change the fact that animals feel pain, that animals feel terror, that animals can develop complex thinking, that animals can even love deeply and unconditionally.

[Diana]

The only time Ra used the word meat was when asked about Carla's diet, specifically in regards to a particular condition she was dealing with. I think it was allergies, as I recall. But Ra didn't advise Carla to eat meat. Rather, Ra knew that Carla already ate meat! That is a very important distinction that is frequently missed: Carla already ate meat, so Ra was working with her where she was at, and did what Ra always did: Answer the specific question only, without telling her what to do. Ra never gave us rules, like a religion. Ra simply answered questions, always choosing their words carefully so as to preserve free will. Don't you think Ra knows that humans are in the transition away from eating meat? Of course Ra knows that! But Ra couldn't explicitly say "Don't eat meat" because then it would have been a rule, and Ra never gave any rules; only concepts in direct response to questions. Ra never explicitly said "Don't murder humans" either, but that doesn't mean Ra endorsed the murdering of humans! Ra only answered questions!

This is very well put. 

My brother could never comprehend the Law of One. That's just where he's at. But we are talking about people who have, presumably, studied the Law of One, and, what's more, claim to be 6D Wanderers!!! If people think they are 6D Wanderers and yet still think it's ok to not only ignore, but to actually contribute to the extreme cruelty of higher 2D beings - beings who feel pain and fear and are intelligent and have complex emotions - beings that Ra has answered the call of! - then, in my humble opinion, they are deluded. Either they aren't really Wanders at all and completely miss the whole point of the Law of One, OR they are simply stuck in the muck and don't even recognize their own denial.

I have to agree here. I commend anyone here who opens their hearts and speaks openly and honestly without trying to justify their actions (and you will know who you are).

I know how difficult things can be here in 3D. I also know that we aren't born here unveiled and completely aware. I can look back on my life and see where I was blind and unaware about so many things. I lived, and became more aware, and got to where I am now, which is still nowhere near where I'd like to be (and I am fully aware that in saying this I admit freely that I am not in acceptance of myself as I am). But today, with the Internet, and information available on every front, it is harder to remain ignorant of what is going on in the world. I also recognize the need to shelter one's self from so much cruelty and suffering input.

In addition, I recognize the addiction food has over us. But this is where conscious choice comes in. What am I going to choose to do, to eat? And why? These are questions for 3D, which, even for 6th density wanderers must be faced.  

[Matt1]

Perhaps, i will continue my crusade as you continue yours, however at this time, i will let it go.

[Diana]

Perhaps, i will continue my crusade as you continue yours, however at this time, i will let it go.

What is your crusade?

[Matt1]

Its a holy war i guess. A war of spirit. One for truth.

[Aion]

I think a lot of people project on to Ra the ideals they themselves promote. I've seen so many times people saying stuff like 'I'm sure Ra is (blank)' or 'Ra must be aware of (blank)', or 'Ra said this, but they actually (blank)', etc. Shoving their mouth full of words that aren't theirs.

[Minyatur]

I think a lot of people project on to Ra the ideals they themselves promote. I've seen so many times people saying stuff like 'I'm sure Ra is (blank)' or 'Ra must be aware of (blank)', or 'Ra said this, but they actually (blank)', etc. Shoving their mouth full of words that aren't theirs.

Ra is ever changing.

[Aion]

That is a moot point to what I said. My point is that Ra is not here and yet plenty seem to speak for them.

[Minyatur]

That is a moot point to what I said. My point is that Ra is not here and yet plenty seem to speak for them.

Didn't mean to disagree, just add to it.

[Jade]

That is a moot point to what I said. My point is that Ra is not here and yet plenty seem to speak for them.

What makes you believe that Ra isn't here participating? I mean, you've personally confirmed for at least GW just recently that he's of the Ra complex. Just saying, I don't think the other extreme that "Ra is not here" isn't exactly correct, either. I'm also of the opinion that Ra would disagree that any one's personal interpretation of their words is incorrect, but again, what do I know? Anyway, it's all moot eventually. Putting the moot lid on a discussion kind of defeats the purpose of a forum community though, eh?

[Aion]

That is a moot point to what I said. My point is that Ra is not here and yet plenty seem to speak for them.

What makes you believe that Ra isn't here participating? I mean, you've personally confirmed for at least GW just recently that he's of the Ra complex. Just saying, I don't think the other extreme that "Ra is not here" isn't exactly correct, either. I'm also of the opinion that Ra would disagree that any one's personal interpretation of their words is incorrect, but again, what do I know? Anyway, it's all moot eventually. Putting the moot lid on a discussion kind of defeats the purpose of a forum community though, eh?

I just meant in relation to my particular point. I was talking more directly to the point that Ra is not introducing and talking from their perspective. Sure, there are Ra wanderers around, but that's not the same as Ra speaking as a whole.

It's more just a matter of respect in my mind. Like in every day life I think it's rude to speak for others. So far I haven't encountered anyone whom can genuinely and purely channel Ra on their own so I can only assume the words here are not specifically their own. So when people use Ra as an authority figure, I have to question it.

I wasn't trying to put a can on discussion, I was just pointing out that there seem to be a lot of people who try to use Ra's awareness in their argument. Only Ra has Ra's total awareness, so only they can respond to that point.

If anything I just wanted to bring the discussion more towards ourselves rather than always standing behind Ra.

[Monica]

I think a lot of people project on to Ra the ideals they themselves promote. I've seen so many times people saying stuff like 'I'm sure Ra is (blank)' or 'Ra must be aware of (blank)', or 'Ra said this, but they actually (blank)', etc. Shoving their mouth full of words that aren't theirs.

Yes, very true...which is exactly why I object to people saying "Ra recommended eating meat" when Ra never did any such thing.

...

[Aion]

Well, Ra never makes recommendations as it is. That's one of their consistent standpoints is that they won't offer recommendations or 'best options'.