Socialism of 4D, Capitalism, Is Money STS?

[Monica]

but, taking more than you give, will always be a negative energy flow.

Agreed. However, I don't think it is so easily categorized as to whether it is a negative flow.

Scenario A

Mr. X develops an herbal cure for cancer. It costs him pennies to make, but he sells it for millions. From Mr. X's perspective, this is greed. He doesn't care about healing other people. He just wants to exploit their illness. Many people cannot afford his expensive treatment so they die.

Scenario B

Mr. Y develops an herbal cure for cancer. It costs him pennies to make, but he quickly runs out of herbs and needs to purchase more of the plants, in order to make more of the healing formulas. He meets Mr. Z, who has terminal cancer. Mr. Z is willing to pay $1million for a cure. Mr. Y tells Mr. Z that he doesn't have to pay that much, since the formula only cost $5 and a few hours of his time to make. Mr. Y decides to make a little profit, but not anything unreasonable. He charges Mr. Z $1000 for the formula. Mr. Z is healed and very, very happy. Mr. Z only paid $1000 but got his life and health back. He thinks he got a bargain! Meanwhile, Mr. Y invests that $1000 into more plants, and now has enough herbs to make thousands of the formulas. He makes them and sells them for $20 each, saving thousands of lives while being allowed to earn an honest living. Everyone is happy.

Are both of these scenarios negative flow?

In Scenario B, since Mr. Z would gladly have paid much, much more than the $1000, he actually got MORE value than what he paid! Same with the later customers who got healed for only $20. Is negative flow based only on the cost of the physical materials? Or is it based on the value the person puts on the exchange? How does one measure something like life and health?

henry ford's intent in serving others, does not change the fact that he took more than he gave. moreover, it doesnt change the fact that his workers didnt get equal share from what they worked on.

moreover, it doesnt change the fact that, after henry ford is gone, that big company he created, stood as just another big company for minority shareholder benefit, and acted accordingly.

This is true. But it's equally true that the invention of cars is a double-edged sword. What is the overall net value of the car? On a positive note, it has made life easier. We can visit friends and relatives who live far away, very quickly. How do we measure the value of that? This is a positive benefit and should be factored into the equation. On a negative note, cars have contributed to people getting more lazy, experiencing more stress, more accidents and fatalities, and of course pollution of the planet. These too must be factored into the equation.

Let's replace the car with the refrigerator. Surely, there are more poitive benefits (food lasting longer, less waste) and fewer negative effects than a car, since refrigerators don't cause accidents or pollute the Earth (or at least not nearly as much as cars do). But the model is the same. Whoever invented the refrigerator surely created an empire and made profit.

My point is that the value of something isn't so easily measured. And a value must be determined, in order to figure out whether the energy flow is negative or positive.

The flow also doesn't happen in an instant. It is set in motion and keeps flowing, for years or even centuries. The big picture must be taken into account. In the end, what is the result? Is the world a better or worse place because of it? This question is not so easily answered. It varies with the item being discussed, even though the mechanism might be the same.

in addition, at no point i am receptive to being enslaved to any minority, regardless of who that minority happens to be.

Well I agree with that.

a negative flow, is a negative flow. intentions, do not matter, in regard to negative flow. even if one is the purest of all entities that have come and passed from this universe, a negative flow, is still going to remain a negative flow.

What makes it a negative flow? In the example you gave, what I understood was that it was negative because it was out of balance. The person received more than they gave. But are you taking into consideration the factor of time? At what point is the equation measured? Perhaps the balance might be skewed in one direction initially, but over a period of time, the scale might tip in the other direction.

[unity100]

Agreed. However, I don't think it is so easily categorized as to whether it is a negative flow.

Scenario A

Mr. X develops an herbal cure for cancer. It costs him pennies to make, but he sells it for millions. From Mr. X's perspective, this is greed. He doesn't care about healing other people. He just wants to exploit their illness. Many people cannot afford his expensive treatment so they die.

Scenario B

Mr. Y develops an herbal cure for cancer. It costs him pennies to make, but he quickly runs out of herbs and needs to purchase more of the plants, in order to make more of the healing formulas. He meets Mr. Z, who has terminal cancer. Mr. Z is willing to pay $1million for a cure. Mr. Y tells Mr. Z that he doesn't have to pay that much, since the formula only cost $5 and a few hours of his time to make. Mr. Y decides to make a little profit, but not anything unreasonable. He charges Mr. Z $1000 for the formula. Mr. Z is healed and very, very happy. Mr. Z only paid $1000 but got his life and health back. He thinks he got a bargain! Meanwhile, Mr. Y invests that $1000 into more plants, and now has enough herbs to make thousands of the formulas. He makes them and sells them for $20 each, saving thousands of lives while being allowed to earn an honest living. Everyone is happy.

Are both of these scenarios negative flow?

yes. it doesnt matter whether the intention of mr Y is great and pure as the blowing winds.

the mechanics of the act there, is negative. he takes more than he gives. even if he made pennies, he received pennies' worth of extra in return.

In Scenario B, since Mr. Z would gladly have paid much, much more than the $1000, he actually got MORE value than what he paid! Same with the later customers who got healed for only $20. Is negative flow based only on the cost of the physical materials? Or is it based on the value the person puts on the exchange? How does one measure something like life and health?

the valuation of goods and services is a different factor here. but there is no need to incorporate it. we are assuming that it is measurable, to make an analysis. the concept is taking more than you give. it may be much cheaper in china, much more expensive in america. but, in the subset you are, if you are taking more than you give, that is a negative flow in the end, regardless of the intent.

it would still make no difference as to Mr Y making pennies' worth more than he gave away as an effort.

This is true. But it's equally true that the invention of cars is a double-edged sword. What is the overall net value of the car? On a positive note, it has made life easier. We can visit friends and relatives who live far away, very quickly. How do we measure the value of that? This is a positive benefit and should be factored into the equation. On a negative note, cars have contributed to people getting more lazy, experiencing more stress, more accidents and fatalities, and of course pollution of the planet. These too must be factored into the equation.

Let's replace the car with the refrigerator. Surely, there are more poitive benefits (food lasting longer, less waste) and fewer negative effects than a car, since refrigerators don't cause accidents or pollute the Earth (or at least not nearly as much as cars do). But the model is the same. Whoever invented the refrigerator surely created an empire and made profit.

My point is that the value of something isn't so easily measured. And a value must be determined, in order to figure out whether the energy flow is negative or positive.

The flow also doesn't happen in an instant. It is set in motion and keeps flowing, for years or even centuries. The big picture must be taken into account. In the end, what is the result? Is the world a better or worse place because of it? This question is not so easily answered. It varies with the item being discussed, even though the mechanism might be the same.

that is similar to saying 'but who emitted the first photon of light ? who was the first positive' and then saying that the energy flows are complicated and if 5% of entities acted negatively, there would be more balance and 50% entities would be able to polarize positively, this and that and its hard to determine and so on.

none of these change the fact that, taking more than you give, will be negative. the results of the action even do not change that fact. even if taking more than you give, saves one's life and leads to that entity going to octave in just 2 days' time, the act of taking more than one gives, will still remain a negative act.

profit, is, a negative concept. doesnt matter it is hard to determine the value of services and goods, or it being complicated and that. if, at the end of day, one is receiving more, its negative.

even if the entity, with that act, causing countless daisies to flower upon the cheeks of billions of kids, the act will still be negative in nature, and will act accordingly. billions of kids' smiles may be offsetting its results. or, may not. that is a separate concept.

this may seem unemotional. it actually IS unemotional. there is no emotion relevant to a mechanic :

light travels in a straight line, and heats up, energizes the surface it falls on.

you may hate it. you may love it. you may want the light not to do so. you may have objections about it. henry ford, may have written a treatise about how light can be used to do this and that. some may worship it.

none of these will change the fact that, light travels in a straight line, and it will heat up the surface it falls on.

that is the wisdom/light side of existence, the mechanics/rules underlying the manifestation in this universe. as long as this ruleset stays, it will keep being as such.

What makes it a negative flow? In the example you gave, what I understood was that it was negative because it was out of balance. The person received more than they gave. But are you taking into consideration the factor of time? At what point is the equation measured? Perhaps the balance might be skewed in one direction initially, but over a period of time, the scale might tip in the other direction.

as said before, in any given timeframe, in any given period, in any given measurement, if one takes more than one gives, it becomes a negative flow.

profit, therefore, becomes as such. it doesnt matter if you divide it into years, to decades. profit means, at the end of measurement period, you took more than you gave, from the other parties.

Have you actually read Ford's book?
How much do you know about him and his business?

In my own personal opinion, this book is one of the greatest devotional books of all time. I believe it is a profound, deeply thought, carefully worded and thoroughly inspiring example of how the individual person can aspire to a greatness of spirit, through serving others in business.

He also discusses how his personal vision of reduced pain in farm life may have saved England in WWI. I did not know either of these aspects of his work with tractors until I read his book. Do you already know all about these things?

first of all, a person or millions of persons' ideas, deeds, opinions, including mine, will not change the fact that some mechanic, is what it is, in a billion years. if you take more than you give, it becomes a negative energy flow. just like the light example above. its a mechanic.

therefore, henry ford is irrelevant to this mechanic.

however, to ease up your mind, i have been educated as an industrial engineer, and have gone through the lives and deeds of many a scientist and industrialist, both due to professional needs and lessons and due to my hobby of history. not to mention that, actually having to learn and pass through many courses that teach many of the practices they have brought.

there has been great kings in the history of the world, who have done great deeds for mankind and helped it. great aristocrats too, actually a lot of early scientists and philosophers, have come out of aristocrat or well to do circles.

however these doesnt change the fact that, aristocracy is an elitist, negative control mechanism, and its core mechanic and nature makes it act as a negative mechanic.

i will address your key points, for ease of your mind, and also to offer important different perspectives :

He discusses product development as a form of service to others, to help lessen the burdens of this imperfect world.
He discusses manufacturing operations as a form of service to others, further lessening burdens of this imperfect world.
He discusses the need for ever lower prices so that service can be provided to more people. He rocked the world with his insistence on this point.
He discusses the transformation of a luxury for the few idle rich, into a huge relief of a painful burden of life for the masses.

yes. just like the 200 year wave of wanderers who incarnated to the planet in order to free the entities from daily life's burdens and to allow them the time to be able to ponder about life and Law of One.

in the end, it turned out so that, the extra time gained has have only enabled the machine to work better, people working harder in more detailed, mentally and emotionally and physically tolling jobs, in order to produce more for the masters they have been working for.

the average individual of 21st century as of now, is much more worn-out, tired, sometimes mentally broken, stressed than an entity of 18th century, due to the increased pace of life.

you now have cars to travel faster. but you use them to travel faster to your job, to work more. moreover, due to that effect being everywhere and the world becoming faster and faster in regard to production and its activities, you work in more stressful, intricate jobs.

whereas, the masters who were at the top before, and in ford's time, earn EVEN more, thanks to those.

nowadays people dont even have the time to visit their relatives anymore. leave that aside, they dont even have the time to properly be with their kids anymore. and thats not even counting the people working for minimum wage in wal mart and alike.

all thanks to the increased pace of life, brought to us by the industrialization and mechanization, WITHOUT changing the core system of elitist, exploitative society.

people are not living in thatched roof huts anymore. however, the 'luxury' of the times, accordingly have become being able to take supper in paris and dinner in new york with a private jet.

so far, in comparison, nothing changed. just, people work even more, and worn, torn out even more, and we have much more diseases and conditions stemming from these. compared to the problems we have today, the days of 18th century, in regard to health-wise, seems even more sane.

He discusses retail distribution, sales, and service as a form of service to others, with the same purposes.
He discusses financial management as a form of service to others. He is quite outspoken and direct about what is right and wrong for investors to expect or claim from a business.
He discusses the need for ever higher wages so that service can be provided to more people. He rocked the world here as well.

yes, better financial management as a form of 'service to others', so that the mechanism will work even better, and the exploited masses working for a minority group will be working more efficiently.

increased wages, so that the masses will spend more, there will be more economic activity, and more goods and services will be traded. which, will in the end end up going to a minority's pocket. actually, even this didnt come into being at any given point.

Of course he made mistakes. Of course he had to learn from others. The moving assembly line came from suggestions of others in his company. His excessive opposition to unions only broke because of what his wife said to him. The important thing here is that he did seriously consider what other people had to say, and at times modified his point of view as he learned new perspectives.

If you're just going to dismiss all of this, we can't have much of a productive conversation.

you are trying to exonerate an entire SYSTEM, over a single entity's deeds and opinions.

with your approach, i can take any enlightened despot from 18th century, and make a treatise for absolute monarchy over them.

The key point is the definition of value. I suppose it might be a tenet from Marx and Engels that the value of a good cannot possibly exceed its immediate manufacturing cost. I do not believe Marx and Engels were divinely inspired, infallible, or consistently seeking to be of service to others. I do believe they are less reliable guides to a life of productive service than Ford.

Your claim that profit and wages are inherent forms of slavery are specifically addressed and debunked by Ford's book, and more importantly, by his life's work. I feel that I am inviting you to a dialog, and you're continuing to repeat secondhand opinions of others about what profit, wages, work, and business can really mean in this imperfect world.

I believe that if more businesses were run according to Ford's principles, there would be less minority enslavement possible.

What other people did with Ford's company after his death has nothing to do with the power of his own ideas. Nor do the mistakes of other people, after he died, take away from what I see as a tremendous loving heart of service behind those ideas.

its not about definition of value. its not about what ford, in his mind, debunks, or, what did those came after him do.

its about CORE systems.

no kind of argumentation, opinion, life stories, deeds, approaches will change the nature of something. things, are what they are, mechanically. and, REGARDLESS of what you build on top of them, with what sentiments you approach them, they keep their character.

this, is the reason why the intended mission of the 200 year wanderer wave, did not reach its goal.

they have come and invented a lot of things, made the life much more easier. BUT, because the system was negative, all they have accomplished in the end, ended up being speeding up life, and causing more activity to be made, with RATIOS unchanged.

there are still masters on top, getting most of the value produced. everyone, in wide, works for them. a good example is how 1% top of society gets 52% of wealth. and top 6% ends up getting 72%, with that 1% included.

and, the bottom 80%, gets 15% only.

so, out of 100 value generated, the 80% of society only gets 15.

it doesnt matter whether you bring cars that travel at the speed of light into this mix. mechanic will keep working the same.

the entities were supposed to have time to think about Law of One consciously, yet, not only they dont even have any time fighting for their survival now, but they also have a lot of issues, conditions, diseases, situations to fight against.

in short, what these wanderers did, had only upped the pyramid, and the pyramid of negative hierarchy in this society is now just residing in a higher place, without its geometry being changed, leave aside, its nature.

even the ideological ideals of the 18th century, regarding freedoms and liberties, have become irrelevant, due to the need of having financial power to actually enjoy them. if you dont have the money and time to do anything, you basically cant do it anything. there being a 'freedom' to do things, in THEORY, does not make it a reality.

our system is ideologically positive, but, practically, economically, negative. a travesty.

and same goes with each and every one of us. as long as we dont change the inherent mechanic of this system, regardless of what we do, it will keep acting as it is, and will eventually turn EVERYthing we do, will be shaped by the underlying mechanic of the system, to fit itself.

[Questioner]

We all take more energy from the sun than we give to it. Are we, therefore, profiting at the sun's expense? Shall we all have a karmic obligation to return that excess of energy to the Sun, once we arrive at a density of existing as light? After our 3D bodies die, they decompose and return nutrients that can support plant life; do our souls have a karmic obligation of restitution for every plant we ever ate?

I disagree with your repeated assertion that profit is always taking more than one gives, thus creating a negative imbalance.

Many of the current dysfunctions of today's economic systems were addressed by Ford. He suggested - and in some cases, implemented - more lovingly concerned alternatives.

increased wages... actually, even this didnt come into being at any given point.

Are you claiming that every historical record of Ford's radical increases of wages and profit sharing is a forgery? That he did not actually radically increase the amount of pay for a day's work compared to what everyone was used to and expected at the time? That his book does not describe an approach to pay for a day's work that radically shifted power away from any kind of hoarding or aristocracy, towards the benefit of workers, their families and communities? That he did not implement that approach and did not believe the tenets he claims in his book? If so, whoever could document such a sham would deserve a major prize in history.

light travels in a straight line

I don't believe that either, by the way. While I readily admit I might be mistaken about physics, based on what I've read and studied, I believe electromagnetic radiation spherically spreads outward in oscillating wavefronts. But that's irrelevant to the question of profit. It is, however, another u100 proclamation without disclaimer. No "it seems to me." No "as far as I understand." No "based on what I've read." No "I might be mistaken, but..." No hint of a humble spirit that recognizes wisdom might be distributed across more than one perception, understanding, or conclusion. This makes it easy to encounter speeches from up high on the pedestal, but difficult to sustain a multiple-way dialogue between equals.

You seem to be saying - correct me if I'm wrong here - that the very concept and action of profit is, in itself, inherently evil, destructive, coercive, enslaving. That it embodies STS negativity of master/slave relationships upon all humans involved in the profitable transaction. If this is your point, I vigorously disagree. While I agree you've often stated it, I think you're very far from having proven it. It seems you continue to dismiss any evidence to the contrary without really thinking it through.

[unity100]

We all take more energy from the sun than we give to it. Are we, therefore, profiting at the sun's expense? Shall we all have a karmic obligation to return that excess of energy to the Sun, once we arrive at a density of existing as light? After our 3D bodies die, they decompose and return nutrients that can support plant life; do our souls have a karmic obligation of restitution for every plant we ever ate?

the end aim is to be like a sun actually. so, if one is wanting to progress, it should increasingly become like the sun.

and yeah, we are profiting from it. the less we profit, and use our own inner source, the further we go.

or, we can choose profiting and clog all chakras, taking more and more.

and, we do have a karmic obligation to radiate whatever energy we took, its inevitable, everything needs to be balanced, and it is going to be balanced. we may radiate it here, we may radiate it in other planets, we may radiate as members of another galaxy, it doesnt matter, we will balance it outright, eventually, even if in another octave.

and, nature balances EVERYthing, as a sidenote.

however, these are not relevant to the subject we are discussing.

I disagree with your repeated assertion that profit is always taking more than one gives, thus creating a negative imbalance.

Many of the current dysfunctions of today's economic systems were addressed by Ford. He suggested - and in some cases, implemented - more lovingly concerned alternatives.

profit is not a system. profit is a concept. it means, you give x, but you take more than x in return. no amount of addressing can change that.

if you concentrate on entire system, as long as you dont give all the entities participating in the work, their equal share of the work they did, and if any of them earns more than the work they have done, either as shareholders, or as managers, or anything, it will be a negative structure, because, some entities are working for the benefit of others.

Are you claiming that every historical record of Ford's radical increases of wages and profit sharing is a forgery? That he did not actually radically increase the amount of pay for a day's work compared to what everyone was used to and expected at the time? That his book does not describe an approach to pay for a day's work that radically shifted power away from any kind of hoarding or aristocracy, towards the benefit of workers, their families and communities? That he did not implement that approach and did not believe the tenets he claims in his book? If so, whoever could document such a sham would deserve a major prize in history.

i was talking, system wide. im not fixated on ford, since an individual cannot prove/disprove entire systems regardless of whatever is done.

I don't believe that either, by the way. While I readily admit I might be mistaken about physics, based on what I've read and studied, I believe electromagnetic radiation spherically spreads outward in oscillating wavefronts. But that's irrelevant to the question of profit. It is, however, another u100 proclamation without disclaimer. No "it seems to me." No "as far as I understand." No "based on what I've read." No "I might be mistaken, but..." No hint of a humble spirit that recognizes wisdom might be distributed across more than one perception, understanding, or conclusion. This makes it easy to encounter speeches from up high on the pedestal, but difficult to sustain a multiple-way dialogue between equals.

its not my 'proclamation'. its what Ra says about the creation of light. it is created to travel in a straight line, in order to express infinity.

if the example doesnt fit your taste, lets make another example :

there is gravity on this planet. if you jump, you fall. no kind of emotion, opinion, life story, treatise will change that. the only way not to fall, is to resist and offset gravity, in ANY manner. still, gravity will keep acting, even if you mentally levitate and fly in the air by your own will. you will be just spending enough effort to offset it.

You seem to be saying - correct me if I'm wrong here - that the very concept and action of profit is, in itself, inherently evil, destructive, coercive, enslaving. That it embodies STS negativity of master/slave relationships upon all humans involved in the profitable transaction. If this is your point, I vigorously disagree. While I agree you've often stated it, I think you're very far from having proven it. It seems you continue to dismiss any evidence to the contrary without really thinking it through.

profit, is a negative energy flow. you may dub this evil, or destructive, this or that.

as long as a source takes more than it gives out, it will keep being a negative flow.

coercive, enslaving, master/slave etc, are not part of that. they come with the system that it is plugged into.

but, there are mechanics naturally, if there is a limited amount of resources or entities, and if they are allowed to take more than they give, some will have more than others eventually, and be stronger than the others and rule others, since this matter involves distribution and usage of resources, with ownership concept included.

im sorry but there can be no 'evidence' against a negative energy flow, being a negative energy flow.

if, in a given environment, if some exchange is done, and some amount goes out, but, in the end if there is more than there was before, it means that that environment has taken in more than it had given. for it to have more than it had before, something, outside, must have decreased. that, constitutes a negative flow.

this doesnt need proving.

[Monica]

the valuation of goods and services is a different factor here. but there is no need to incorporate it.

Why not? Why leave it out? Why focus on just the physical substance?

The knowledge of how to use the herbal formula, + the healing it produced, are valuable to the person with the disease. Not just valuable, but priceless. That is an energy exchange. Why leave it out of the equation? Why focus only on mechanics?

I invite you to consider that the exchange is not just physical, and that there are many more factors in the equation. What may appear to be a negative energy flow might not be, once you take all the factors into consideration.

we are assuming that it is measurable, to make an analysis. the concept is taking more than you give. it may be much cheaper in china, much more expensive in america. but, in the subset you are, if you are taking more than you give, that is a negative flow in the end, regardless of the intent.

it would still make no difference as to Mr Y making pennies' worth more than he gave away as an effort.

But it does make a difference. The people Mr. Y sold his herbal formula to, lived instead of died. That is an energetic difference.

none of these change the fact that, taking more than you give, will be negative.

True. I agree on this point. My point is that the giving of knowledge, or healing, or joy, is still giving and thus should be added in to the equation.

Mr. Y might take more money than the actual cost of his herbal formulas, but the actual value of his formulas might be much greater than the cost of the ingredients. How do we put a value on life? We can't. It is considered priceless. Thus, it could be argued that Mr. Y gave far more than he took, because he gave the gift of healing and life, in exchange for mere pennies.

the results of the
profit, is, a negative concept. doesnt matter it is hard to determine the value of services and goods, or it being complicated and that. if, at the end of day, one is receiving more, its negative.

Ah, that is exactly my point! What if you did your analysis at the end of the week, or the end of the month or year or lifetime, instead of the end of the day?

The point at which you do your measuring can make the difference. Flow implies the passage of time. Time may be the missing factor in the equation!

billions of kids' smiles may be offsetting its results. or, may not. that is a separate concept.

Those kids' smiles constitute energy. Energy flows. What is offsetting but an energy flow? If something is offset, that means it is counterbalanced.

this may seem unemotional. it actually IS unemotional. there is no emotion relevant to a mechanic :

Why is it just mechanic?

light travels in a straight line, and heats up, energizes the surface it falls on.

But with more time, it can travel farther.

as said before, in any given timeframe, in any given period, in any given measurement, if one takes more than one gives, it becomes a negative flow.

Takes what? Gives what? Why are there rules about what is counted? Why may only physical material objects and money be counted?

If I spend an hour on the phone counseling my best friend, and at the end of the conversation she feels better, isn't that an energy flow? Knowledge and feelings were shared. Ideas were offered. Emotions expressed and healed. That's energy.

profit, therefore, becomes as such. it doesnt matter if you divide it into years, to decades. profit means, at the end of measurement period, you took more than you gave, from the other parties.

I don't dispute that. I am disputing only what you are counting. I suggest to you that intangibles such as feelings, emotions, knowledge, healing, etc. be counted. They are energy. They are exchanged. They have value. We are spiritual beings. We don't dwell only in 3D physical reality, so why wouldn't we count those intangibles when determining the flow?

so far, in comparison, nothing changed. just, people work even more, and worn, torn out even more, and we have much more diseases and conditions stemming from these. compared to the problems we have today, the days of 18th century, in regard to health-wise, seems even more sane.

There is truth in this. People's lives are much more complex. Rather than having more time, in some ways they have less time, are more stressed, and have many more worries about illnesses, etc.

you are trying to exonerate an entire SYSTEM, over a single entity's deeds and opinions.

with your approach, i can take any enlightened despot from 18th century, and make a treatise for absolute monarchy over them.

Hmmmm....interesting point.

no kind of argumentation, opinion, life stories, deeds, approaches will change the nature of something. things, are what they are, mechanically. and, REGARDLESS of what you build on top of them, with what sentiments you approach them, they keep their character.

This is the crux of the matter. I am curious why you believe their character cannot be changed. Can you share with us why you believe that? Is this based on a philosophy, book, your own experience, your own logical conclusions, or what?

the entities were supposed to have time to think about Law of One consciously, yet, not only they dont even have any time fighting for their survival now, but they also have a lot of issues, conditions, diseases, situations to fight against.

This is true. I know many people whose lives are dominated by their physical illnesses and/or financial woes.

if you dont have the money and time to do anything, you basically cant do it anything. there being a 'freedom' to do things, in THEORY, does not make it a reality.

our system is ideologically positive, but, practically, economically, negative. a travesty.

Why did the Wanderers incarnate? Why did they (we) try to change the system if it can't be changed?

and same goes with each and every one of us. as long as we dont change the inherent mechanic of this system, regardless of what we do, it will keep acting as it is, and will eventually turn EVERYthing we do, will be shaped by the underlying mechanic of the system, to fit itself.

How do we do that? How do we change the inherent mechanics of the system?

---

if, in a given environment, if some exchange is done, and some amount goes out, but, in the end if there is more than there was before, it means that that environment has taken in more than it had given. for it to have more than it had before, something, outside, must have decreased. that, constitutes a negative flow.

this doesnt need proving.

The key here is in the end. At what point is it the end?

I agree with your concept but, respectfully, I believe there is missing piece in your equation, because the factor of time is not taken into account.

If more time is allowed, the balance of energy might change or even reverse. What started out negative might end up positive.

[Questioner]

Let me put it more starkly. Perhaps with sufficient detail about my situation, the love, wisdom, balance and kindness I seem to be missing can be added.

I am helping to take care of someone who has two of the most seriously damaging illnesses known to mankind. Either major medical condition could result in this person's death any time in the next few years. That death would likely come after a long time of extreme pain while the body collapses in on itself. If there is enough money for health care, the last part of the end would likely be drugged to oblivion as the only way to manage the intense pain of the body's collapse. In addition, the person has several large and chronic medical conditions that are unlikely to shorten lifespan, but they do seriously reduce quality of life.

This person is unable to work. There is some insurance from a previous employer and from the government.

Several times a day this person needs my help on an unpredictable schedule. Sometimes a simple remark or reminder is enough for them to take care of themselves. Sometimes several hours of my help are required. The person has repeatedly commented that without my help, they almost certainly would have reached that sad and terrifying end a few years ago.

Insurance covers very effective treatment for one of the major conditions. The other major condition and the minor conditions have no treatment of any kind. The major condition is well controlled by a medical miracle that has come through science in recent years. Regular introduction of an engineered chemical into the person's body makes possible correct processing of a crucial protein that is not correctly handled in their disease.

The insurance company has indicated that they may drop coverage of this chemical at the start of next year.

Over the counter coverage of that chemical is about $10,000 per month.
Treatment of the other major condition would almost certainly require "medical tourism" to a distant country, where political manipulations of the medical establishment are less ruthless in some ways than where I live.
The other four specialists needed are available close to home and would also be expensive.

I live where there is a mixed economy, with considerable room for business and entrepreneurial profits, and also considerable government regulations at several levels.

I want to make enough money to save a life and improve quality of life for this person I care about with great love and devotion.

I have had to drop out of the workforce, because no job related to my skills and talents could give me the flexibility to take care of this person throughout the day. Also, no job I could conceivably get could pay for someone's help to take care of this person at home, so that I could be out making enough money to pay for that home health care.

In the process, all savings, assets, and credit available have been completely consumed.

This is why I have had so much time throughout the day to read spiritual information and participate in these online discussions.

This is only scratching the surface. There is a cascade of other issues just as serious.

Now I have been driven to ponder ways to find meaning in life. I cannot recall any supernatural experiences beyond some remarkable coincidences now and then.

99% of the Law of One material resonates with my intuition as true, and my valid path. I freely admit the remaining percent might be just as excellent for me, limited only by my reading comprehension or by flaws in my intuitive guidance.

In addition, about 80% of "galactic federation" type material such as Salusa and Bashar resonates for me.

If these materials are indeed true, in 4D+ there will be no more health or money problems. The question is what to do until then, especially if Ascension only occurs after a normal lifespan's end.

Most of the current problems could be solved in today's imperfect world by more money.

Some of my skills could realistically be used to build a business, and make a profit which could quite realistically save a life. With enough money, all the medical problems could most likely be handled well enough to extend this person's life expectancy from a few years of hell to a few decades of comfortable or even abundantly vibrant life.

If one studies the history of business, it is hard to find people who started with less and became more successful in business than Ford. Rockefeller made more profit, but much of it was unethical, his book was a cynical cover-up of his real techniques, and he also had to rely on a lot of good luck. I know of nobody else who has, in one book, a more concise and useful example of business as service than Ford. His book is, of course, not the only one I have read about entrepreneurship. I know of no other single person who has had a more profound transformative effect on economy, society, and business, from a perspective of service to others.

If one wishes to learn how to step up to higher ground as far as possible, the best place to start is someone who has scaled Everest and written a how-to book explaining what it means to put one foot in front of the other. If one wishes to start from nowhere, with nothing, and make a business profit through service to others, in my humble opinion there is no more finer guide to the whole process than Ford's book.

I want to use EVERY technique from Ford's book that I can.
I aspire to take what is now a luxury for the elite, and for large corporations, and bring it to everyday people everywhere. Because of a recent technological breakthrough which I was involved in, when I worked for large corporations, I see how this can be done. Just like Ford did with cars.
I aspire to design something useful for 95% of everyday people, just like Ford did.
I aspire to continuously improve operations, lower costs, lower prices, involve more experts in the production and continuously pay them better, just like Ford did.
I aspire to provide ongoing excellent service with upgrades at production cost, just like Ford did.
I aspire to provide the maximum of service and earn a small profit from the largest number of freewill transactions, just like Ford did.

The only problem with this is, according to you, unity100, this is at the cost of my soul.

Please continue to explain to me how I will go to hell for making this profit. Prevent that tragedy. Correct my awesome sin of wanting to use the resources available to me to serve my fellow man, get paid more than the cost of materials, get rewarded for my courage and ingenuity, and put the money into a better life for someone I seek to serve with love.

Go ahead, tell me how I should watch their pain never end, because profit is wrong.

[Monica]

Questioner, I am so sorry to hear about your friend. What a blessing you have been to this person!

Over the counter coverage of that chemical is about $10,000 per month.

I'm glad to hear that science has been able to offer a treatment that has helped your friend. But, I think the price tag of that treatment is obscene. Knowing what I know about the drug industry, I believe their primary objective is to exploit the suffering of those like your friend. (Note: I am referring to the industry as a whole, not individual researchers and doctors who generally are very STO motivated and earnestly trying to help others.)

This is such a complex issue. On the one hand, it's wonderful that medical advances have been made. On the other hand, it's an illustration of the very STS nature of the monetary profit system taken to the extreme, in which life-saving products are prohibitively expensive for most average people, and wipe out the life savings of an individual in the blink of an eye.

In the US, the #1 cause of bankruptcy is medical bills. The top 10 pharmaceutical companies' combined income is more than the other 490 Fortune 500 companies put together! This is outrageous when considered that oil companies are included in those 490 companies.

The US spends more on disease management than on all other industrialized nations put together, yet ranks #38 in the world for health and longevity, according to WHO statistics (right below Cuba!).

It's a travesty.

[unity100]

the valuation of goods and services is a different factor here. but there is no need to incorporate it.

But it does make a difference. The people Mr. Y sold his herbal formula to, lived instead of died. That is an energetic difference.

Why not? Why leave it out? Why focus on just the physical substance?

The knowledge of how to use the herbal formula, + the healing it produced, are valuable to the person with the disease. Not just valuable, but priceless. That is an energy exchange. Why leave it out of the equation? Why focus only on mechanics?

I invite you to consider that the exchange is not just physical, and that there are many more factors in the equation. What may appear to be a negative energy flow might not be, once you take all the factors into consideration.

we are talking about the end result, evaluated condition.

because, evaluation is a long process, especially in a supposedly 'free' market which is also fragmented by countries and other various divisions, detailed evaluation of some price is extremely detailed.

and, the cost i have been considering, includes every kind of cost regarding to the physical manifestation of the concept, including overheads, depreciation this, that.

if we get into energy business, it becomes more complex, however against the concept of profit -> by giving health to 1 million entities, the entity will have enabled 1 million entities to manifest fully, and these entities would energize the planet with their activity and energy, and it would affect everything in the end, including, the general energy situation of the entity producing that treatment. that is, not even counting the positive energy that will manifest towards that entity, in the form of gratitude.

if we count these in, that entity would have taken not only the light, wisdom side of the aspect, the mechanic, but also will have received these. so, it will benefit even further, not even offsetting the negative flow in regard to mechanic.

.......................

if you bring in the 'knowledge of the formula' is priceless concept, it becomes even worse :

no knowledge belongs to noone. no invention is actually 'invented'. the simplest invention, if we look at the 200 year wanderer wave, happens to be either things wanderers long planned before incarnation, and in incarnation, and created together with other entities, getting the information to create these things either from their societal complex, or other disincarnate sources. if, the entity is not a wanderer, the inspiration to do something is acquired through similar means.

this is mentioned in regard to various inventions or inventors or wanderers in Ra text, like 'this entity got its information from confederate sources'.

so, who's peddling the information to who ? who's selling whose information, to whom ?

this entire civilization, all civilizations that have come and passed, are results of collective works of entities. any invention or idea brought, are based and built on others'.

this is totally leaving out the fact that, information is not invented, or discovered, but merely becomes revealed/available, through allowance of various spiritual mechanics and subconscious, which belongs to any given level of tree of mind. may be societal, may be a group, may be totality, may be universe.

i havent entered these parts, because they are detailed subjects in themselves. and with that kind of logic, one could easily purport 'but who emitted the first proton' and defend any kind of extreme negativity, and argue for it.

this is a concept relating to light/wisdom, or mind, or mental. it is a negative flow. EVEN if, the overall result in the end, due to whatever reason, ends up being positive, due to people not dying, this that, this particular act will still be a negative flow, and will do its effect in time/space accordingly.

it is not about whether it can be offset, or in the end its a good thing overall or not. what im saying is, regardless of the end result, a negative flow, is a negative flow. it cant be changed, because, it is the nature of flows.

Mr. Y might take more money than the actual cost of his herbal formulas, but the actual value of his formulas might be much greater than the cost of the ingredients. How do we put a value on life? We can't. It is considered priceless. Thus, it could be argued that Mr. Y gave far more than he took, because he gave the gift of healing and life, in exchange for mere pennies.

again, we are calculating the total cost of all the production, delivery, everything, and then saying that if there is excess it is a negative flow.

actually, considering the time/space sensitivity, even the intent of making a profit, would affect a situation similarly, to the extent of the intent.

Ah, that is exactly my point! What if you did your analysis at the end of the week, or the end of the month or year or lifetime, instead of the end of the day?

The point at which you do your measuring can make the difference. Flow implies the passage of time. Time may be the missing factor in the equation!

i cant even understand the difference. at the end of any given period, if one took more than what was given, it will be a negative flow. doesnt matter when you calculate. the situation at the time of calculation, will be valid.

Those kids' smiles constitute energy. Energy flows. What is offsetting but an energy flow? If something is offset, that means it is counterbalanced.

it still doesnt matter. like in the gravity example, the kid's smiles may be offsetting the flow of red energy towards the entity (since finance/money is generally charged with red energy in our society, or, you can place in whatever energy it becomes an agent for, or energies), but, it still wont change the fact that the entity, whenever does profit, creates an energy flow in EXCESS of what it is giving out, towards itself.

'a thousand kids' smiles have put me in the positive karmically and energetically !' -> yes, but the entity was, and still will be creating a negative energy flow towards itself with profiting.

Why is it just mechanic?

because, we are discussing the mechanic side of things. because, even if a billion kids' smiles are created by selling some medicine, the mechanics of things, when taken into global scale, synergistically, changes the overal situation into what we have in front of us in the end.

not every profit's negative connotations and energy flow is offset by a thousand kids' smiles.

But with more time, it can travel farther.

i dont even see the relevance ?

given time or not, the light still will be traveling in a straight line. no emotion, act, argument can change the fact that, light travels in a straight line. 'my light traveled even further !' -> yes, but it still traveled in a straight line UNLESS you have exerted various influences and forced it to follow a non straight path. even in that case, light was still traveling, forcing its way in a straight line. that is the nature of a mechanic.

Takes what? Gives what? Why are there rules about what is counted? Why may only physical material objects and money be counted?

If I spend an hour on the phone counseling my best friend, and at the end of the conversation she feels better, isn't that an energy flow? Knowledge and feelings were shared. Ideas were offered. Emotions expressed and healed. That's energy.

again, offsetting does not change the mechanics of an act. you may have charged your friend for your time and your phone #, even for your calories lost, even for the depreciation or opportunity cost, even for lost vibrations AND still your friend's happiness may offset that.

but, it still wouldnt change the fact that, if you have charged your friend more than you spent, you have made a profit, and created a negative flow, first systematically, mechanically, in concerns of light/wisdom, and then in regard to whatever energy that that medium (money) was charged with and carrying.

This is the crux of the matter. I am curious why you believe their character cannot be changed. Can you share with us why you believe that? Is this based on a philosophy, book, your own experience, your own logical conclusions, or what?

why their character cant be changed ?

you cannot change the character of a mechanic. once a rule, a mechanic is created, it acts always accordingly. ie, the laws of nature governing manifestation, spirituality, energy flows, whatever you can count, ie, the means and ways this particular existence was set with for its manifestation to happen. these are mechanics. wisdom side of things.

you cant change their nature. if you were able to change them, you would just be changing them into a different mechanic, yet, the mechanic you have created would STILL act the same.

moreover, we are talking way in a higher level here, we are talking about very simple concepts. like, taking more than giving is a negative flow. it can be said that this is beyond the mechanics of this particular octave, universe even, its an existential concept. you cant change the nature of this. whenever a focus takes on more than it gives out for any kind of thing, there will be a negative flow in regard to that thing, for that focus.

Why did the Wanderers incarnate? Why did they (we) try to change the system if it can't be changed?

there is a word mixup here. with 'system' in that context, i meant the political, social system of the planet. not, 'system' as in mechanics of anything, laws of nature, light, spirituality etc.

the wanderers' unwisdom was that, they attempted to bring a positive environment over a negative ruleset. it only went as far as what we see today.

How do we do that? How do we change the inherent mechanics of the system?

we need to change the system itself obviously. if mechanics of a system is changed, its no longer the same system.

all that is being discussed here, inequal distribution of results of work, ownership of entities over means of generating results, etc etc, are all properties of the system.

The key here is in the end. At what point is it the end?

I agree with your concept but, respectfully, I believe there is missing piece in your equation, because the factor of time is not taken into account.

If more time is allowed, the balance of energy might change or even reverse. What started out negative might end up positive.

yes, and with that logic, you can be an infinitely ruthless despot the universe has ever seen, torment every existing focus of consciousness and even destroy them, and then come up at point infinity and say that, 'see, it all balances in the end'.

yes it definitely does. however, how one comes to that infinite balance point, also matters.

i have taken the example and exaggerated it, however, i think my meaning is clear.

balance always happens in the ultimate end. but, how we come to that point also matters.

The only problem with this is, according to you, unity100, this is at the cost of my soul.

Please continue to explain to me how I will go to hell for making this profit. Prevent that tragedy. Correct my awesome sin of wanting to use the resources available to me to serve my fellow man, get paid more than the cost of materials, get rewarded for my courage and ingenuity, and put the money into a better life for someone I seek to serve with love.

Go ahead, tell me how I should watch their pain never end, because profit is wrong.

i have already guessed that, this was more related to personal situation of an individual in the middle of a negative society, and what s/he can do in it, rather than a conceptual, philosophical argument with the way things are.

we are all in that situation, living in a negative society, trying to act positive. had we been sent into a world that was in war all the time, we would have to also fight and kill other people, in order just to survive ourselves to perform whatever objective we were there for.

we would have to fight, and kill, and succeed in the end, and even gain positive karma instead of losing or gaining negative, according to the end results of the act at the end of incarnation.

but, these would not change the fact that, killing another entity, is something undesirable, and should be avoided. how we feel about this, would not change the situation. even if we save 1 million people by killing a dictator, the act of killing would still happen, and and, whatever wisdom/emotional results associated with that act, would still come into being. depending on entity, these may have little effect on him/her, or, always haunt his/her dreams. depending on results, the entity may gain endless positive karma, or may not. but, the act of killing would still have happened and act as it is.

wisdom is, knowing this fine detail, and navigating one's way with it.

let us bring the 200 year wanderer wave into this, and make an example over them. i will give a long example and then using it bring the matter directly onto your situation, mine, and probably many others' :

these entities came to this world, trying to give inventions to mankind and systems, so that man could have more time to actually think about things. these entities, maybe thought that their intent, what they are giving, could change the world, or change its nature. or, they just accepted the world as it is, and thought that, they could give these things, and then it would be still alright. after all intent was positive, end results would probably be positive, karmically good results would be created. so basically, concepts underlying in the system and deemed useful, or harmless, or a nature of this society, were not challenged and changed. instead, things were built on them.

but, mechanic is a mechanic. it never changes the way it acts, regardless of intent, emotion, will, karma, end results, this and that. mechanics are what they are. they always act as they are.

so, the inherent negative concepts at the bottom of this society system kept on acting as they were. first 150 years, there have come much betterment compared to before. but in the last 100 years, the system, which was constantly applying the force to the mix in its own direction, have changed things, into what we see today. so much that, the health level of an 18th century peasant, is probably now higher in comparison than the health level of an upper middle class individual in general, despite the former was probably working for much less, and had even more time (or mental/spiritual energy) to consider anything consciously.

and the rate we are going is for the worse. so basically not only we are in a worse condition overall than the start of this effort, but we are going even worse.

what was the problem ? the problem was ignoring the base mechanics and their undiscriminating nature. nomatter how one approaches a mechanic, mechanic still acts as it is. there is no changing that. if it is changed, it becomes a different mechanic. it may be offset through OTHER means, its effects lessened or totally offset. but, the effect would still be there. just like how the initial part of the 200 year period was better than how it was before.

what should have been done ? first, realization and understanding of the nature of the mechanics, system, ie 'the dance' that was happening in the given society, sphere, system should have been undertaken. then, the plan to accomplish a given goal, should be built with this realization.

in the case of 200 year old wave, with this realization, changing the basic political and economic system of the world in base, rather than giving inventions, would have been much more fruitful, for example. by changing various aspects of the fundamentals, there could be much more time and freedom provided to entities, since they would work less for survival, if they had more of what they produced. this way, the destructive results of an unready 3d planet being given extreme technology compared to their awareness would also be avoided entirely. if you remember, we have more than 1500 nukes already active still on this planet, most of which with multiple independent warheads that can destroy 6 to 12 cities in one go. and two cities were already blown away. this, is not counting the tesla vehicles, ufos that some countries have. this is not counting the environmental destruction to this planet this technology level and lack of awareness has caused. this is not counting the new illnesses, conditions that are result of increasing pace of life or any similar side results.

in short, if one ignores the wisdom side of things, regardless of intent, will, emotion, the results of an attempted service may turn out worse than before a service was rendered.

if, emotion is the power behind doing things, the driving force, wisdom is the WAY to do things. either lacking, results become either crooked, or, there may be no result at all.

...............

how it boils down to our own situation ?

we are incarnated on this planet, however we are. 3d entities, or wanderers, or 3d entities who are conscious of some things.

and, according to the needs of an incarnation, and the societal implications of it, we have to oblige with various realities of the incarnation to keep it continuing.

there may be disparage in between our nature in our native density, or place, or planet, or whatever, and the necessities of this planet. even with the places our mind and soul can reach, and this planet. some disparage may be so high that, entities who would find eating a physical foodstuff disgusting and unbearable may be having to eat physical foodstuffs on this planet, and subconsciously suffering from its results without knowing why.

these entities will burden this weight. it doesnt matter whether they are here to serve, their intent, their deeds, their actions, their karma. the disparage in between their own nature and the nature of life here, will continually take its toll, even if some other entity, or concept stands in between and totally offsets any kind of results from manifesting, or even from being noticeable.

it is in the price of living on this planet. the entity, if in a relevant level of awareness and seeking, should be aware of its situation, what is happening, why is it happening, for as much as s/he can, and act accordingly.

the example was given from something stemming from the entity's own nature. however, it applies to everything.

so, directly, since you are living in a negative societal construct, and have obligations, you will have to make profit, if your situation dictates you to so. your intent, your karma, your will, your actions will not change the fact that this is a mechanic as such, and it will keep acting as such. the wisdom and responsibility in regard to one's own soul is, knowing what things are, how they act, and minimizing the impact of them with its actions.

first of all, accepting, rationalizing and internalizing the concept of profit, because you have to do it, would become a burden for your own soul. that is of course, unless you intend a negative path. then it may become a necessity, for a while.

else, you need to accept this thing as it is, accept it as a burden, and shoulder it as it is. you should not gratify, attempt to change its nature, exonerate, beautify it or anything like that. it is what it is. and it should be avoided as much as possible, if one intends to manifest as pure as possible. the ideal rule is this.

this could be mitigated with numerous other factors. the entity's service may involve setting up a particular situation, and this may involve creating a corporation, doing profit, this and that. however, this wouldnt change the fact that profit, is a negative flow in nature, and if it is not compatible with the path one is taking at a particular time, it is something to be avoided, like similar things. the specific plans that would involve setting up a corporation and doing something with it could be debatable of course, in the light of the effects of the 200 year wanderer wave. but, if it is a plan brought to this planet in incarnation, it is a plan ... not much to do about such a situation. unless the entity is highly aware, realizes the situation, poses the issue to its spiritual circle and decides to arrange something else with its society complex/guides/higher self, and changes his/her life plan. (and maybe entire reality s/he is in, accompanying it).

your situation seems to be one set up for wisdom. there is someone you cant leave be, for service, you need to acquire resources to be able to continue that service, and render the service.

but, during the process, you need to be wise, and minimize any kind of undesirable physical and spiritual side effects of all these acts, as much as you can. for that, you need to be aware and wise, you should not exonerate, beautify, internalize and ignore anything. but instead should be aware of them, and undertake their burden as much as needed, but not more, according to your own particular view and desire of purity and your particular path. if, you find any way to perform what you aim without shouldering a negative burden, you should consider attempting it, and bring it up with your inner resources, spiritual circle. these all depend on your own path of fate of course.

however, if you are at the level of being aware of something, and you become aware of that thing and its nature, you should be aware of it, nomatter what. it is what it is. things are what they are. having the knowledge of things and dance, and acting accordingly is the way of wisdom. if one is approaching balance from love point, this would be needed.

accepting something as it is would not mean being oblivious to its nature.

[Aaron]

May I chime in here to elucidate one small point...? And that is, as far as we can universally understand due to the Ra material, the mechanics of an energy exchange may be fundamentally negative or positive, as Unity has pointed out. But it is the intent with which we undergo those energy exchanges that makes all the difference to our souls here in 3rd density.

This thread has had a lot of useful information posted in it, and I thank all of you for sharing. Questioner, I wish you nothing but the best in the extremely challenging situation you find yourself in.

[unity100]

what im saying is, intent wouldnt change the wisdom of the situation. a negative system will keep acting negative, until it is changed. and, when all the good intention people are gone from whatever place they were functioning, system will just start manifesting its own nature with all its bareness again, with no bumper to offset its effects.

simply ; henry ford died. f.d.r. died. lincoln died. what happened ? almost exclusively, their efforts and the changes they brought were first negated by the system's nature, and then reverted back by the ones who were comfortable in this system (negative nature entities), with a few exceptions. all we have got, has been temporary reprieves until system readjusted to its nature.

[Monica]

Wow, a lot to ponder!

I'm still confused about how to change it, though. You seem to imply that the Confederation entities can change it. But, do you think WE can change it? Or are you suggesting that we report back that it needs to be changed, when we return to our home density? (along with reporting that war and suffering need to go, as well as fleas on 2D animals!)

I'm still not sure I agree with you that the mechanic can't be changed or the energy flow can't be changed by our intentions and energies. But I really don't know. I will definitely ponder your ideas.

As always, thanks for sharing!

[thefool]

Questioner- My heart goes out to you and I hope you find peace with it, whatever the outcome...
________________________________________________________________

It changes one person at a time. That is the nature of the beast so to speak. trying to make mass changes and transformation is against taking Free Will away from the individuals and putting it another place. However benevolent it might sound in the beginning. That is not the intention of this earth experiment. Now we can always propose a different system when we go back but my feeling it that most of us are going to like this experience once we are out of it. For the the value of experience and accelerated discovery that it would have offered...We have to remember that we have chosen this experiment and ANY experience we bestow upon ourselves; good or bad (perception wise). Trying to blame a system or others is not the answer. We have to handle anything that comes into our lives as Catalysts...

Well I try to keep that perspective in mind.

[Monica]

when all the good intention people are gone from whatever place they were functioning, system will just start manifesting its own nature with all its bareness again, with no bumper to offset its effects.

This is the part I'd like to explore further.

As an example, when President Obama got elected, and I was watching the news coverage, I marveled, to the point of tears, at how strong the feelings were...people were rejoicing! I felt a strong sense of joy and healing in out country, and even the world.

Now this has nothing to do with whether one likes or agrees with Obama or not. It had to do with the major milestone of electing a Black president, in terms of healing for the Black community. I saw this as extremely positive, and could feel the ripples of joy and healing tangibly and palpably.

I surmised that this wave of rejoicing would elevate the country and leave a lasting benefit.

So I was a quite taken aback when the question was asked of Q'uo as to what the effects were from this positive experience. (Again, leaving political differences aside, and focusing only on the racial implications.)

To my surprise, Q'uo downplayed the effects of what I perceived as waves of rejoicing and healing, and suggested that it was temporary and had not really made much of a dent in the overall consciousness of the planet.

I was actually quite stunned at this response. If we incarnated here to raise the vibration, how could such an intense feeling shared by many millions, even if it is for only a few days, not affect the overall consciousness?

Add to the equation that we live in a holographic universe. How does this factor in? I know that my world changes as I change. But that doesn't necessarily mean it changes for others, because they are still creating their worlds with their own free wills.

So I am wondering just how we can change the system, or if it ever will be changed. Maybe it only changes for us, as we change. Maybe there are many alternate realties in the space-time continuum, some of which have a new system and others which still have the old system, still stuck in place for those who still choose it. Because, ultimately, whatever system is in place, must be a reflection of the collective free wills of the society as a whole.

With that as a presupposition (which I realize some may disagree with, as is inevitable whenever a presupposition is suggested, but of course we all have presuppositions, whether expressed or not), then the question is raised: Wouldn't the way to change the system be to help the people whose free wills are being reflected by the system?

Whether the mechanics of the system can change or not, seems to be a presupposition. It may be correct or it may be incorrect. I don't know. But, as I said, I am open to considering it.

What I am wondering is whether maybe, if true that the mechanics of it doesn't change, then how we get around that and help the people to change instead. It seems to me that if we do that, the mechanics of the system can't help but change, if our universe is truly holographic, because the system must reflect the free will of the entities.

This opens up a whole new area of discussion about the nature of the holographic universe, which might best be explored on its own thread.

simply ; henry ford died. f.d.r. died. lincoln died. what happened ? almost exclusively, their efforts and the changes they brought were first negated by the system's nature, and then reverted back by the ones who were comfortable in this system (negative nature entities), with a few exceptions. all we have got, has been temporary reprieves until system readjusted to its nature.

Lincoln left a legacy of having eliminated slavery (although the way in which he did that, and whether that was actually his goal, has been the subject of controversy. I am choosing to trust Ra on that one.) That's huge.

I am seeing slavery as a major part of the system, that was indeed changed largely by Lincoln's efforts. Can you clarify what you are referring to by the 'system' that reverted back after he died? Are you referring specifically to the monetary system, or are you considering any social system as a system? I am seeing slavery as part of a social system that did change and didn't revert back, but continued to change even more, for the better. I'm not sure I understand you on this.

[irpsit]

Hey guys, you just remember to feel and to be love.
All politicial models are so biased that we tend to react to them.

Unity, I am also left-wing, but I have learnt not to persuit these discussions for the sake of proving socialism right, even if it is, because some people just react badly, and thus we end creating service-to-self vibrations in both individuals having that political discussion.

In 3D individual tend to be separated. In 4D+ they tend to be united.
Individual souls still exist but differences are blurred in the light of Love.

Hey everyone, please remember that :-)
And bless you

As a new socio-political model, which I think is a embryonic 4D STO structure, are ecovillages, intentional communities, homesteads. People just want to make a difference and be living well and happy, with each other. No matter what religious or political backgrounds. Under the light of Love.

[unity100]

Wow, a lot to ponder!

I'm still confused about how to change it, though. You seem to imply that the Confederation entities can change it. But, do you think WE can change it? Or are you suggesting that we report back that it needs to be changed, when we return to our home density? (along with reporting that war and suffering need to go, as well as fleas on 2D animals!)

i said we cant just change it ourselves on our own. it seems as such.

confederation or wanderers en masse, maybe could have changed things, if a plan for that end was made. whether such a plan was made and in the works or not, we dont know. if it is, it is.

i dont think anything needs reporting back either. if one sees something, everyone does. of course the clarity of the link in between whatever the entity is linked to, may affect its permeability.

I'm still not sure I agree with you that the mechanic can't be changed or the energy flow can't be changed by our intentions and energies. But I really don't know. I will definitely ponder your ideas.

As always, thanks for sharing!

mechanics can be changed for sure. but if they are changed, they are not the same mechanic anymore. just, things that are not suitable/compatible with that mechanic, cant be built on such mechanics, and then expected to last. because, well, incompatible things are incompatible.

This is the part I'd like to explore further.

As an example, when President Obama got elected, and I was watching the news coverage, I marveled, to the point of tears, at how strong the feelings were...people were rejoicing! I felt a strong sense of joy and healing in out country, and even the world.

Now this has nothing to do with whether one likes or agrees with Obama or not. It had to do with the major milestone of electing a Black president, in terms of healing for the Black community. I saw this as extremely positive, and could feel the ripples of joy and healing tangibly and palpably.

I surmised that this wave of rejoicing would elevate the country and leave a lasting benefit.

So I was a quite taken aback when the question was asked of Q'uo as to what the effects were from this positive experience. (Again, leaving political differences aside, and focusing only on the racial implications.)

To my surprise, Q'uo downplayed the effects of what I perceived as waves of rejoicing and healing, and suggested that it was temporary and had not really made much of a dent in the overall consciousness of the planet.

I was actually quite stunned at this response. If we incarnated here to raise the vibration, how could such an intense feeling shared by many millions, even if it is for only a few days, not affect the overall consciousness?

isnt it the same thing again ?

something good happens. but, people will pay bills tomorrow. they will commute to work tomorrow. their kid has school payments. loans. this, that, numerous obligations. fear for their future. fear for the future of their close ones. wear, tear, all kinds of things.

combined with whatever possible traits this 3d population have accumulated from their 2d and earlier 3d experience and habits, in regard to survival, the well being of self, care of self taken to extreme etc.

also combined with the veil, reducing the effect of emotions maybe, or any connections to deeper shared experiences.

it seems to all add up.

had there been a full disclosure with sky being laden with extraterrestrial vehicles, the next morning people would still be thinking about their bills probably. with a new subject to talk around a water cooler.

possible.

Add to the equation that we live in a holographic universe. How does this factor in? I know that my world changes as I change. But that doesn't necessarily mean it changes for others, because they are still creating their worlds with their own free w

as i mentioned before, i dont buy that 'holographic' universe business. i think, all consciousness is connected. noone can create an entire reality with entities having free will in it, totally on their own will. all consciousness is connected, and reality is created together, this is what i think.

So I am wondering just how we can change the system, or if it ever will be changed. Maybe it only changes for us, as we change. Maybe there are many alternate realties in the space-time continuum, some of which have a new system and others which still have the old system, still stuck in place for those who still choose it. Because, ultimately, whatever system is in place, must be a reflection of the collective free wills of the society as a whole.

my opinion with reality changing or changing one's reality is, it happens with limitations.

by willing it and desiring it truly and strongly, an entity may effect a change in its reality. but, the amount and nature of change, would have to be compatible with the entity's own overall violet balance/nature, and the balance/nature of the reality that entity is 'migrating' to. there may be the consideration of the reality entity is leaving too, but this matter is a detailed matter, and it needs debating.

of course, if the entity changes its violet balance/nature, then, this would make the entity fit for another reality too. its another factor.

i say by strongly willing something it is possible entity may change its reality gradually. but, jumps, i think, are probably either impossible, or rare.

With that as a presupposition (which I realize some may disagree with, as is inevitable whenever a presupposition is suggested, but of course we all have presuppositions, whether expressed or not), then the question is raised: Wouldn't the way to change the system be to help the people whose free wills are being reflected by the system?

Whether the mechanics of the system can change or not, seems to be a presupposition. It may be correct or it may be incorrect. I don't know. But, as I said, I am open to considering it.

What I am wondering is whether maybe, if true that the mechanics of it doesn't change, then how we get around that and help the people to change instead. It seems to me that if we do that, the mechanics of the system can't help but change, if our universe is truly holographic, because the system must reflect the free will of the entities.

This opens up a whole new area of discussion about the nature of the holographic universe, which might best be explored on its own thread.

if entities keep attaching to existing system, it wont change. if they want it to change, the system, will have to change.

Lincoln left a legacy of having eliminated slavery (although the way in which he did that, and whether that was actually his goal, has been the subject of controversy. I am choosing to trust Ra on that one.) That's huge.

huge. yet, 90 years later there is rosa parks incident.

it is still debatable that, discrimination has ended.

I am seeing slavery as a major part of the system, that was indeed changed largely by Lincoln's efforts. Can you clarify what you are referring to by the 'system' that reverted back after he died? Are you referring specifically to the monetary system, or are you considering any social system as a system? I am seeing slavery as part of a social system that did change and didn't revert back, but continued to change even more, for the better. I'm not sure I understand you on this.

with a few exceptions, i meant the slavery. however it is also debatable that lincoln ended slavery, because slavery was banned in a lot of countries up to that point already. america was just straggling.

and even with that, what i suggested in the above block also apply. even so much that, in a parallel example, brasilian slaveholders found the way to continue slavery as it is, by using monopolies and financial system to exploit slaves with only a little reprieve from before. it also has been as such in america.

and in grand scale, yes, everyone ended up being slaves of the system in the end, that was something i have expressed before.

[Monica]

i said we cant just change it ourselves on our own. it seems as such.

confederation or wanderers en masse, maybe could have changed things, if a plan for that end was made. whether such a plan was made and in the works or not, we dont know. if it is, it is.

Well, there is a huge movement gaining momentum in the area of referral marketing. It's not eliminating the money system. I agree with you that, ultimately, the goal would be to eliminate the money system (like in Star Trek's vision of the future).

But that would be a huge, radical change. Referral marketing might be a step in that direction. Referral marketing is decidedly of mixed polarity at best, because it still relies on money. However, it has a philosophy of cooperation rather than corporation. (Interesting how these completely opposite terms have only 1 letter different!)

It's all about putting the money into the hands of average, everyday people who care about others, instead of the ruthless, greedy corporations who are short-sighted and poisoning the planet.

At its best, referral marketing can be a beautiful thing. I've seen people come together with a common goal to help many others. In order for the concept to work, people must work together, rather than competing with one another.

I think I understand your viewpoint, so I realize you might not consider it any different, since it still has money at its core.

But in the context of having to live in the current society, since we do have physical needs, it is a perhaps less competition-based model than the corporate model.

Although, of course, just as religions can attract STS entities as well as STO, so too can referral marketing attract those who are greedy. But for those who have needs or the vision to help others, it is a way to reduce feeding the corporate money machine, and put more into the hands of the common people, given our current constraints with the money system. Since we must play the game to some degree in order to survive, this is a way to get our needs met while perhaps taking a baby step towards eventually changing the system.

i dont think anything needs reporting back either. if one sees something, everyone does. of course the clarity of the link in between whatever the entity is linked to, may affect its permeability.

What you just said, is how I view the holographic UniVerse. I don't see it as a single entity creating an entire universe centered around them. I see it as a means for us all to affect one another.

mechanics can be changed for sure. but if they are changed, they are not the same mechanic anymore. just, things that are not suitable/compatible with that mechanic, cant be built on such mechanics, and then expected to last. because, well, incompatible things are incompatible.

Superficial aspects of the mechanic can be changed, which might, over time, lead to the core being changed, when the people are ready for it to be changed.

isnt it the same thing again ?

something good happens. but, people will pay bills tomorrow. they will commute to work tomorrow. their kid has school payments. loans. this, that, numerous obligations. fear for their future. fear for the future of their close ones. wear, tear, all kinds of things.

combined with whatever possible traits this 3d population have accumulated from their 2d and earlier 3d experience and habits, in regard to survival, the well being of self, care of self taken to extreme etc.

also combined with the veil, reducing the effect of emotions maybe, or any connections to deeper shared experiences.

it seems to all add up.

had there been a full disclosure with sky being laden with extraterrestrial vehicles, the next morning people would still be thinking about their bills probably. with a new subject to talk around a water cooler.

possible.

I do see a lot of change, in my neck of the woods. I see people awakening. Even people who were very rigid fundamentalists, waking up! It's a joy to behold.

I agree that the system causes a lot of seemingly unnecessary stress and suffering. I don't like it either. But I don't agree that nothing ever changes. I am seeing changes. For now, while we are here, we must do what we can to nurture those changes.

as i mentioned before, i dont buy that 'holographic' universe business. i think, all consciousness is connected. noone can create an entire reality with entities having free will in it, totally on their own will. all consciousness is connected, and reality is created together, this is what i think.

I agree. When I refer to a holographic UniVerse, I am referring to our ability to connect and thus affect one another, which I believe is very powerful.

my opinion with reality changing or changing one's reality is, it happens with limitations.

by willing it and desiring it truly and strongly, an entity may effect a change in its reality. but, the amount and nature of change, would have to be compatible with the entity's own overall violet balance/nature, and the balance/nature of the reality that entity is 'migrating' to. there may be the consideration of the reality entity is leaving too, but this matter is a detailed matter, and it needs debating.

of course, if the entity changes its violet balance/nature, then, this would make the entity fit for another reality too. its another factor.

i say by strongly willing something it is possible entity may change its reality gradually. but, jumps, i think, are probably either impossible, or rare.

I agree overall but would add to that, that as we connect with and affect one another, one entity's realizations/breakthroughs/enlightenment can ripple out to others, which can trigger a sudden massive shift.

Is it probable? No, but ever possible.

if entities keep attaching to existing system, it wont change. if they want it to change, the system, will have to change.

True. But in order to change the system, people first have to realize that the system needs changing. That is the first step.

Lincoln left a legacy of having eliminated slavery (although the way in which he did that, and whether that was actually his goal, has been the subject of controversy. I am choosing to trust Ra on that one.) That's huge.

huge. yet, 90 years later there is rosa parks incident.

it is still debatable that, discrimination has ended.

Discrimination hasn't ended. That's for sure. But, we are obviously making huge progress. We now have a black president. That could not have happened even 20 years ago.

I know a lot of people who are still very racist and this racism came out of the closet when our president got elected. I was shocked to learn that my own brothers are racist! Having a black president has provided catalyst for them, so that they can deal with that aspect of themselves. Some of them seem to be coming to terms with it, while others seem to be sinking further down into hatred, thus polarizing STS (at least it appears so to me, as an observer).

with a few exceptions, i meant the slavery. however it is also debatable that lincoln ended slavery, because slavery was banned in a lot of countries up to that point already. america was just straggling.

True. Slavery is a good example of a system being changed, over time and in gradual, incremental steps, as people evolved to the point of realizing that it was wrong. It still does exist, but in pockets of the world, not as a whole. At least not blatantly. Society as a whole is disgusted by something that, just a couple of hundred years ago, was considered acceptable by 'educated' people.

I realize that, in a sense, the monetary system promotes a type of slavery. I don't deny that. But for the point I am currently making, I am referring to the blatant 'ownership' of another person. That system has changed for the most part.

and even with that, what i suggested in the above block also apply. even so much that, in a parallel example, brasilian slaveholders found the way to continue slavery as it is, by using monopolies and financial system to exploit slaves with only a little reprieve from before. it also has been as such in america.

True. But in pockets of society, not as a whole. It has not yet been eradicated, but society has certainly made tremendous progress. As long as entities live in 3D, there will always be STS entities who find a way to get around whatever system is in place.

---

and, the cost i have been considering, includes every kind of cost regarding to the physical manifestation of the concept, including overheads, depreciation this, that.

if we get into energy business, it becomes more complex, however against the concept of profit -> by giving health to 1 million entities, the entity will have enabled 1 million entities to manifest fully, and these entities would energize the planet with their activity and energy, and it would affect everything in the end, including, the general energy situation of the entity producing that treatment. that is, not even counting the positive energy that will manifest towards that entity, in the form of gratitude.

if we count these in, that entity would have taken not only the light, wisdom side of the aspect, the mechanic, but also will have received these. so, it will benefit even further, not even offsetting the negative flow in regard to mechanic.

I disagree on this point. Not because you're wrong, because you might be right, but because I don't think we can quantify the end result. We don't have all the data. It is measurable, in the same way that walking the steps of Light is measurable, but we are not currently in the position to be able to measure it. Thus, we can only speculate as to what the net value would be.

So I don't necessarily disagree with your speculation. I just disagree that we can conclusively say what the net result is. We can only speculate.

your situation seems to be one set up for wisdom. there is someone you cant leave be, for service, you need to acquire resources to be able to continue that service, and render the service.

but, during the process, you need to be wise, and minimize any kind of undesirable physical and spiritual side effects of all these acts, as much as you can. for that, you need to be aware and wise, you should not exonerate, beautify, internalize and ignore anything. but instead should be aware of them, and undertake their burden as much as needed, but not more, according to your own particular view and desire of purity and your particular path. if, you find any way to perform what you aim without shouldering a negative burden, you should consider attempting it, and bring it up with your inner resources, spiritual circle. these all depend on your own path of fate of course.

however, if you are at the level of being aware of something, and you become aware of that thing and its nature, you should be aware of it, nomatter what. it is what it is. things are what they are. having the knowledge of things and dance, and acting accordingly is the way of wisdom. if one is approaching balance from love point, this would be needed.

accepting something as it is would not mean being oblivious to its nature.

Given your views on the monetary system, this is a compassionate response. Regardless of whether you are correct about the inherent STS nature of the monetary system, it is a fact that we are currently immersed in it, and must participate, to some degree, in order to survive as well as help others.

I agree on the point that it is wisdom to recognize the nature of something, even if we must, for whatever reason, still participate in it.

We must each decide for ourselves how to best navigate the system, being that we are immersed in it. We all have differing needs as well as resources, and individual catalyst must also be taken into consideration.

For myself personally, while in agreement with you regarding the inherent nature of the monetary system, I am choosing to participate in what I consider a more highly evolved version of it, in the form of a cooperative referral marketing system, as a means to accomplish what I consider a greater good, which is helping people to heal.

[Etude in B Minor]

as i mentioned before, i dont buy that 'holographic' universe business. i think, all consciousness is connected. noone can create an entire reality with entities having free will in it, totally on their own will. all consciousness is connected, and reality is created together, this is what i think.

Holography is just mathematics.

What I think is that there is only one consciousness. So it is not that there are many consciousnesses that are connected. There is only one (that is the "Law of One", right?). This single consciousness merely appears to be fractured into multiples only because our body/minds are so strongly identified with the specific viewpoint provided by our bodies' senses. It certainly appears to us that our senses and hence our consciousness are tie to the body. As we move, so does our specific local viewpoint. But if we could identify with the greater mind we would see that this multiplicity of consciousness is just an illusion fostered by our focusing overly much on a localized sensorium.

The "I" that is conscious of my computer desk here is the same "I" that is conscious of the road that the bus driver is travelling on outside my house.

Somebody mentioned a Quote in another thread that the primary lesson to be learned in all planes of existence is that all is one. Or was it that you should not eat pizza right before going to sleep?

[unity100]

Well, there is a huge movement gaining momentum in the area of referral marketing. It's not eliminating the money system. I agree with you that, ultimately, the goal would be to eliminate the money system (like in Star Trek's vision of the future).

But that would be a huge, radical change. Referral marketing might be a step in that direction. Referral marketing is decidedly of mixed polarity at best, because it still relies on money. However, it has a philosophy of cooperation rather than corporation. (Interesting how these completely opposite terms have only 1 letter different!)

It's all about putting the money into the hands of average, everyday people who care about others, instead of the ruthless, greedy corporations who are short-sighted and poisoning the planet.

At its best, referral marketing can be a beautiful thing. I've seen people come together with a common goal to help many others. In order for the concept to work, people must work together, rather than competing with one another.

I think I understand your viewpoint, so I realize you might not consider it any different, since it still has money at its core.

But in the context of having to live in the current society, since we do have physical needs, it is a perhaps less competition-based model than the corporate model.

Although, of course, just as religions can attract STS entities as well as STO, so too can referral marketing attract those who are greedy. But for those who have needs or the vision to help others, it is a way to reduce feeding the corporate money machine, and put more into the hands of the common people, given our current constraints with the money system. Since we must play the game to some degree in order to survive, this is a way to get our needs met while perhaps taking a baby step towards eventually changing the system.

money itself is not the main culprit. it can be just acknowledged as a 'resource unit' identifier. a measurement tool. even if it is wrong to attempt to dub values to everything as such.

the main problem here, unequal rights, ownership. and profiting.

referral marketing, in these regards do not differ much. in referral marketing, people sell others' stuff and get commission over it. the ownership, rights and most of profit stays on the seller. it is not an equal situation. basically its just another distribution system.

any business that is grown over a certain size through referral marketing, will act as other corporations.

What you just said, is how I view the holographic UniVerse. I don't see it as a single entity creating an entire universe centered around them. I see it as a means for us all to affect one another.

i think, we are all creating this reality together, as an interconnected consciousness furball.

Superficial aspects of the mechanic can be changed, which might, over time, lead to the core being changed, when the people are ready for it to be changed.

that is the mistake 200 year wave wanderers made. even though the things that they changed were more than superficial, because basics were not changed, it didnt have the game changing impact.

I do see a lot of change, in my neck of the woods. I see people awakening. Even people who were very rigid fundamentalists, waking up! It's a joy to behold.

I agree that the system causes a lot of seemingly unnecessary stress and suffering. I don't like it either. But I don't agree that nothing ever changes. I am seeing changes. For now, while we are here, we must do what we can to nurture those changes.

societies dont change if the ones changing do not reach a critical mass. there are 7 billion entities on this planet. and, due to our nature, the ones who are seeking would naturally be attracted to the ones who are seeking, in various levels. however, majority of population still seems to be repeating the same pattern they have been repeating for eons.

I agree overall but would add to that, that as we connect with and affect one another, one entity's realizations/breakthroughs/enlightenment can ripple out to others, which can trigger a sudden massive shift.

Is it probable? No, but ever possible.

and, impractical and infeasible. a lottery to wait.

moreover, it is contradictory to the concept of discovery of multiple beingness.

if one being was let to affect so many others, there would be less reason to be multiple. what we are doing is discovering multiple beingness. with each unit trying to manifest its own nature as much as possible. so, one entity affecting all others in a profound manner and causing anything major, is, undesirable.

True. Slavery is a good example of a system being changed, over time and in gradual, incremental steps, as people evolved to the point of realizing that it was wrong. It still does exist, but in pockets of the world, not as a whole. At least not blatantly. Society as a whole is disgusted by something that, just a couple of hundred years ago, was considered acceptable by 'educated' people.

or has it changed ?

the very period in which slavery started being banned coincides with the industrial/capitalist revolution taking momentum, in mid 1860s. new ways to make people work were found, and with lessening responsibilities. being a feudal lord brought a lot of responsibilities with it, and obligations. however, capitalist system's employee-employer relationship, didnt carry any of those obligations. because it was 'voluntary'. even with a lot of changes to laws, it is still more or less the same.

I realize that, in a sense, the monetary system promotes a type of slavery. I don't deny that. But for the point I am currently making, I am referring to the blatant 'ownership' of another person. That system has changed for the most part.

why own and repress slaves, when you can make slaves work for you willingly, without you taking on any responsibilities of feeding them.

True. But in pockets of society, not as a whole. It has not yet been eradicated, but society has certainly made tremendous progress. As long as entities live in 3D, there will always be STS entities who find a way to get around whatever system is in place.

as long as a negative system is left in place, it will act negative. its not about getting around.

I disagree on this point. Not because you're wrong, because you might be right, but because I don't think we can quantify the end result. We don't have all the data. It is measurable, in the same way that walking the steps of Light is measurable, but we are not currently in the position to be able to measure it. Thus, we can only speculate as to what the net value would be.

So I don't necessarily disagree with your speculation. I just disagree that we can conclusively say what the net result is. We can only speculate.

no amount of measurement can change the fact that, taking more than giving, is a negative flow.

you may be delivering billions of ice creams to kids making them smile. however, the act of profiting, will still be a negative flow, in respect of the mind complex.

the 'energy' results, or karmic in overall, are related to combination of interactions of mind, spirit and body, and the eventual significator.

but, isolated from all these, in the vast darkness of thought, the act of taking more than giving, will always be a negative flow.

thats another particular fine point of wisdom : no facet of existence can be ignored and the end result can come up good; mind, body, spirit are all aspects of life, and their total orientation affects the resulting manifestation.

let me give an example :

had you been a slave owner that treated her slaves excellently like decent humans back in 18th century, it wouldnt change the fact that owning slaves, from the viewpoint and mechanics of mind, wisdom, would be a negative act. energy costs, energy benefits, this that, wouldnt matter. even if your slaves were much more happier than a buzzing bumblebee sucking sweet flower nectar, the act of owning slaves, would be negative.

profiting is as such. you may exonerate the end result with innumerable calculations and justifications, and it may even end up being as such in total.

but, as long as profiting exists, it will keep acting according to its nature, and affecting the overall result according to its nature. no amount of emotions, will, blessings, spiritualism, love, hate, can change that fact ; mechanics, act according to its nature. that is the wisdom part of existence. just like all the other fundamentals, that make this physical manifestation (and its accompanying part in time/space) possible.

What I think is that there is only one consciousness. So it is not that there are many consciousnesses that are connected. There is only one (that is the "Law of One", right?). This single consciousness merely appears to be fractured into multiples only because our body/minds are so strongly identified with the specific viewpoint provided by our bodies' senses. It certainly appears to us that our senses and hence our consciousness are tie to the body. As we move, so does our specific local viewpoint. But if we could identify with the greater mind we would see that this multiplicity of consciousness is just an illusion fostered by our focusing overly much on a localized sensorium.

The "I" that is conscious of my computer desk here is the same "I" that is conscious of the road that the bus driver is travelling on outside my house.

Somebody mentioned a Quote in another thread that the primary lesson to be learned in all planes of existence is that all is one. Or was it that you should not eat pizza right before going to sleep

the 'single consciousness fractured into multiple consciousness' concept you speak of, is, the definition of 'multiple' that is discovered up to this point.

ie ; the concept of being 'multiple', is as you see here. there is no other 'multiple' than this. this is the multipleness that is discovered.

thus, there is indeed multiple consciousnesses manifesting. because, this is the definition that is known as 'being multiple', and multiple consciousnesses are acting all over it.

its not 'fake'. or 'illusion'. this is the extent of 'multiple beingness' goes. ie, this is what it can be, what can multiple being, can be.

[Questioner]

If the Law of One material is basically correct, then it seems to me that there are some certain consequences for one who seeks to polarize to the positive, service-to-others path.

One consequence is that becoming harvestable to 4D+ is of primary importance.

For a positively oriented Seeker, 4D- would be excruciating hell: to be trapped in a circumstance where every moment is confronted with shapeshifting evildoers focused entirely upon enslavement.

For a positively oriented Seeker, missing the Harvest, for another 25,000 years of 3D existence behind the Veil, would be purgatory. To come so close to the opportunity to be free of the limitations of 3D life, and yet to miss it, would be tortuous.

Now it also seems to me that the Choice of polarity is not a single decision, but the sum total of all the conscious and unconscious experiences of the mind/body/spirit complex. Some experiences serve to open the MBS complex to less distorted usage and onward passage of certain colors of experience, catalyst, or energy patterns. Other experiences serve to close the MBS complex's receptiveness to certain colors of catalyst.

Leaving aside the green energy for a moment, the other energy colors must be individually open, and also opened to a balanced extent, for the MBS complex to be harvestable. In addition, green response must be significantly open for a positive harvest and almost entirely closed for a negative harvest.

Ra said, "To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this." I believe a realistic extrapolation is: To a MBS complex which is in physical pain and disintegration, that is preventable by medical treatment, the appropriate response is the medical treatment of the body.

Now I may well have a significant opportunity to ensure the provision of such treatment to one who needs it, and who suffers greatly without it. I believe that I can use money transfer as a means to ensure this provision. Ra mentioned Albert Schweitzer as an example of a spiritually evolved MBS complex along the positive path of service to others.

I've read Schweitzer's book, which I believe is another of the classic inspirational books of all time in terms of describing a life of devoted service to one's fellow man. I have also studied other information about Schweitzer, and I believe I am reasonably well informed about the nature of his life and beliefs.

Ra mentioned Schweitzer's fundraising efforts as an example of vigorous yellow-ray activity within the context of a life successfully polarizing towards service to others. If money donated for medical expenses for others was inherently evil, than Ra would be utterly misguided in this very clear description of Schweitzer's altruistic hospital as a positive expression of compassionate love through the open-hearted green ray.

If I was given the money to, like Schweitzer but on a much smaller scale, fund medical care for someone who needed it; and I chose to spend the money this way: I believe there would clearly be no problem or objection to my spending the money this way. If there was, then Ra is utterly misguided about Schweitzer.

Now here is where we get to the core of my vigorous disagreement with unity100's point of view. I continue to be stunned and shocked by u100's insistence that any form of profit is a form of oppressive evil. I believe this position is a matter of religious faith, which does not hold up to logical scrutiny and is not necessary for a person who seeks to follow the Law of One on a positive path of service to others. I believe the implications of this position, if followed to its logical conclusion, are extraordinarily evil in practice; and that these implications are seldom followed to their logical conclusions.

The logical conclusion of the "profit = evil" mantra is that those who set out to create a profit in business, and succeed at this goal, are always inherently doing evil and harming their fellow man and woman.

Even if those who purchase what is offered do so of their own free will.

Even if those who purchase are delighted, thrilled, grateful, relieved, happy, contented and satisfied with what they purchased, and did so fully aware of the cost structure of the provider and the quantity of profit they provide.

Even if those who purchase say that the opportunity to make the purchase is a Godsend, an answer to prayer, a solution that is far less expensive than any alternative, a solution that they feel is completely satisfying exchange for the life energy they put into acquiring the money in the first place.

Even if all the profit is immediately donated sacrificially to a worthy cause of service, such as reducing the pain and prolonging the life of a person who needs major medical care.

Now this mantra, profit=evil, if true, puts someone in my position into an utterly untenable double-bind.

If I could offer the most positive, appreciated, loving and kind service to those who are totally delighted and thrilled to pay for it, including a profit they are fully aware is part of the price, then I could relieve the suffering of my fellow human being; and thereby open the green ray of open-hearted loving compassion. If I did not do this, I would force my medical patient whom I could help to suffer completely preventable pain. I would also force my buyers to suffer the loss of the solutions or opportunities I could provide, but only if they provided enough profit to recoup initial startup costs and ongoing operating expenses.

Yet if unity100's mantra is true, then the very act of making the profit, of seeking the profit and of accepting the profit, closes the green ray of open-hearted loving compassion, by forcing my customers to suffer.

Therefore, I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. The patient and I have already conclusively proven, through many experiences I will not detail here, that an appeal to alms is utterly inadequate for covering the necessary medical care. So the question is: am I to go to hell - that is, 4D-, or another 25k years of this sh*t, for idly standing by while one person suffers - that is, the patient? Or am I to go to hell for idly standing by and perpetuating the suffering of a different other person - that is, the customer?

Tell me, u100: should I go to hell for declining to request profits that could reduce pain and suffering? Or should I go to hell for requesting and accepting profits from people utterly willing and delighted to pay them, to combine their alms with a practical benefit that fulfills their desires?

I believe the whole dichotomy is false, and the key to breaking this false contradiction is the recognition that "profits=evil and harm" is a statement of religious faith in certain political and economic theories.

If you say that you find that faith to be comforting and sustaining to your own life, and they you live according to it as much as you can, I have no objection.

If you say that this article of faith is a scientific fact, a logically proven certainty, a matter of historical absolute, and a necessary tenet for any sincere follower of the Law of One along the positive path, I say: bulls*t.

I will withdraw from any further discussion along these lines, unless I see a clear willingness to have a debate free of logical fallacies; a debate based on demonstrated goodwill towards my own sincere search for what is loving and kind in life.

I have given quite some detail about my experience with and growing awareness of how cult brainwashing occurs. Based on what I have written in this forum, it should be no surprise that I am unwilling to accept any amount of emotionally intense repetition as proof of a claim about the nature of spirituality and service.

Repeating a mantra or creed (such as "profit is inherently destructive and enslaving, no matter what, even if it's only one cent") is not a logical, scientific, or religious proof.

I see no evidence of a willingness to respect the sincerity, goodwill, compassion and thoughtfulness with which I have diligently sought to understand the meaning of altruism through philanthropy, as Schweitzer demonstrated, and of service to others through ethical business, as Ford demonstrated.

If you repeat the mantra of your own religious convictions, then you at least owe me this courtesy: explain to me how idly standing by while another's body is wracked with preventable pain is the loving certainty I must have as the ticket to heaven.

I don't believe you can, and I doubt you'll respond to this heartfelt essay with goodwill either. Perhaps you might astonish me with a thoughtful, compassionate, respectful, and logically coherent sincere debate that attempts to avoid any fallacies, false syllogisms, or reliance on Marx as though he channeled the infinite light and love of the Creator. If that happens, I ask a moderator to draw my attention this thread; until that day, I'm outta here.

[unity100]

Yet if unity100's mantra is true, then the very act of making the profit, of seeking the profit and of accepting the profit, closes the green ray of open-hearted loving compassion, by forcing my customers to suffer.

firstly, you are confusing the wisdom part of the event, with love part of the event. or, the mechanics part of the event, with the energy part of the event.

there is no direct correlation in between these. one is pertaining to mind, one is pertaining to energy.

regardless of how much your heart chakra is open, a mechanic of the mind, a construct of wisdom, will act in the manner and nature it has. if it is negative, it will keep being negative. this is an emotionless matter. because, it is not related to emotion. a mechanic is created, and it acts according to the nature it is programmed to.

and, also you are, naturally, as a result of the above, intermixing the mechanic, with results of your actions.

i have actually iterated these in response to monica :

your actions' results, may result in a net increase of any kind of higher energy, vibration, emotion you desire to seek. the effect of the mechanic can be offset with any kind of other input. in the end, events and states and results do not get formed with just one factor.

but, this still wont change how the mechanic acts. even if you put 1000 units of love and compassion and energy and whatnot into what you are doing and it creates 10000 units of the same result or even better, if the mechanic is contrary to what you are aiming, and it has, say, (with an exaggerated downplaying) 5 units of negative effect, it will STILL do that negative effect. it wont change its nature.

that is wisdom. it may sound brutally robotic, unforgiving, emotionless.

it is. it has no negative or positive emotion associated with it. it is just a mechanic. and it acts according to its nature. if it is a negative construct, it creates a negative end result. it can be offset, however, it will work it is intended. if it is a positive construct, it will act to generate a positive result.

Now here is where we get to the core of my vigorous disagreement with unity100's point of view. I continue to be stunned and shocked by u100's insistence that any form of profit is a form of oppressive evil. I believe this position is a matter of religious faith, which does not hold up to logical scrutiny and is not necessary for a person who seeks to follow the Law of One on a positive path of service to others. I believe the implications of this position, if followed to its logical conclusion, are extraordinarily evil in practice; and that these implications are seldom followed to their logical conclusions.

i will use this block to reply to rest of your post, for, what i see is, you have reiterated same points, which i have replied to you in the last long post, with the same emotions and arguments.

what i am describing, is something relevant to purity and delicate wisdom. they may or may not be attainable in a given situation. they may be too delicate considerations, for a quite imbalanced society, or planet. however, they are considerations.

the first is about purity : the purest form of activity in this octave, is radiation of entirety of one's own self, without taking anything back. this is not just energetic. it is also mental. social, whatever aspect can be attributed to existence. actually, as this state is approached, it is impossible to separate one from another, for the energetic has to follow the mental, and mental has to follow the energetic activity and be in sync.

in that respect, taking anything back, even if for a good cause, through the mechanic of profit, becomes impure.

that is the extreme end of this consideration. the aim is quite high here. something that is going towards very high density principles. the planet we are in, is very 'worldly' at this moment, socially, quite far from even 4d standards.

yet, if the aim is high, where the arrow hits will also be similarly high.

however, since the circumstances this society is in, is only as what we all know, it is slight chance that the arrow will hit anywhere near the bullseye.

in short, you will have to do business if you live in this current societal system, you will have to fight if you are forced to join a war, or die, you will have to produce harmful gases to the atmosphere if you have to use technology, you will have to go to wc and take a dump and create very low frequency 1d material, if you want to even exist on this planet.

these, are among the burdens one accepts when incarnating in such a planet.

however there being such burdens, does not mean that one shouldnt aim as pure as possible.

but more importantly, such burdens being there, does NOT mean that, and should not mean that, one would have to, or desire to internalize them, and 'somehow', justify them as pure concepts, or exonerate them from their nature.

they are what they are. having to deal with them, does not change their nature. neither does it make one 'evil', or 'sends to hell'. however, internalizing and rationalizing and accepting them into one's inner biases, would be harmful to the positive, or balanced path.

just thinking whether 'profit' or 'ownership' or 'corporation' can have any place in positive 4, 5d, or 6d, gives one the answer.

...........................

then there is the wisdom consideration of the concept. yes, you may cause a billion smiles pop up in the faces of a billion kids, yes, you may donate ALL the profit you get into charities. but, that wont change the fact that there is a profit making organization, and you are making profit.

this is a consideration of delicate wisdom. again, rather on the extreme side, like the purity concern regarding this subject. but, it is present, just like the other.

what happens when everyone profits ? what happens when someone gladly, willingly pay you a profit by being thrilled, and be very very happy about it ? what happens when that person has to pay a profit to everyone he deals with, even if he willingly does it and very happy with the situation ?

eventually his resources will dry out. because, everyone takes more than they give.

it doesnt matter how you value what is given - if, what is given is valued very low, monetarily (ignoring the happiness, energy, this that aspects), then the 'market' will be valued as such, and all the conduct will be valued as such. if, the 'thousands of smiles on children's faces' factor is counted in, and the product is valued as such, everyone will be valuing their products, services as such, and the market will be valued, in entirety, as such. prices will just increase, along with whatever income there is for everyone.

but, the profit situation will still wont change in the end -> regardless of how the market is valued, everyone makes more than they generate.

so then. where does those extra profits everyone make, come from ?

lets say there is X amount of total worth of goods, services, thousands of smiles generated.

and the entire system is built on profit, and, ( lets make up a percentage of profit like, %5), the system does 5% in total.

where does that profit come from ?

lets make it a closed system, and have 100 entities. lets say, these 100 entities generate 1 units of 'smiles' each. a total of 100 units of smiles generated. but, all entities ask for 5% profit for what they are giving.

where will the 5% more, come from ? where will the extra 5 units of smiles, come from, into this system ?

someone will have to give it. it wont materialize from thin air.

in the most ideal situation, either those entities would have to work more, to generate that 5% more, and then, because they had worked more, they would similarly ask 5% more for the 5% more they had to pay into the entire system, and just continually increase the prices in the entire system that way. a self destructive spiral for asking more, having to create more, reciprocating each other.

in another situation, some entities wouldnt have any needs from the system at a given point, others would, so that part of the society would carry the burden of 5% more.

.......................

of course, the above examples assume that everyone acts in the same manner; for the good of everyone, donating, giving what they make, and creating a thousand smiles.

even if there is ONE entity, that is not doing that in that system, due to the mechanic of profit, that entity will keep accruing more and more, eclipsing all others, and become much more powerful than others, due to the nature of 'ownership' system. because the entity now commands more resources than others, he has more power than others. and, he can do what he wants with those resources.

this is the summary of how capitalist system, with ownership and profit, skews democracies. it doesnt matter politically everyone has equal rights and vote or not - the ones with the most resources, make the candidate and the rule.

The above is the perfect example to the 'big picture' aspect of the wisdom concern of this thing. no kind of goodwill exerted by 200 year wanderer wave, or any other influence, has been able to offset it.

even though the ideals of freedom and equality the wanderers like jefferson, franklin et al brought have seemed to stuck at first, eventually they were all undone, through the system's mechanic :

golden rule : the one with the gold makes the rule. or, at least, shapes into what is desired. if anyone has more gold than others, then it means, s/he has more power than others. if, any of those with that amount of gold, are not people with good hearts, everything goes down. because, using their power, they can offset and undo those who have equal power with them and good of heart, and then dominate all the rest.

............................

these are not 'mantra' or 'religious convictions'. these are what everyone discusses in all forums regarding life on this planet. this even includes this forum, its various subforums regrading the life on this planet. everyone complains from it. everyone hates it.

yet, everyone, conveniently or because of conditioning through media and propaganda, misses what mechanic underlies it. as long as they keep doing this, the plight will continue.

the various private interests that have accumulated regrading any given field of life, will keep trying to monopolize and exploit that field of life - the 'insurance industry' will keep trying to exploit patients, block anything detrimental to their interests, the 'finance industry' will keep trying to make money with taking minimum risks, even if that leads to extreme bubbles and total crash of the system, even if it takes playing with papers and creating water vapor assets and frauding the society, the military complex will keep trying to start wars to profit at the cost of people's lives, the private education sector will keep trying to monopolize best teachers, discourage public schools so that they can make more profit, energy sector will try to prevent zero energy vehicles so they will still be able to profit ... examples are endless. name your pick.

.............

as long as there are ones supporting it, the system will keep working. and it will prevent anyone from leaving it, through the means it has.

..............

what perspective i am offering, is the knowledge and awareness of the situation, as it is. depicting everything as they are. and, working through them consciously, by aiming for maximum purity, and balancing love and wisdom.

from the way you react, actually, it is easy to tell that you were already aware of these concerns, even before this topic has come up.

this, from the proceedings of this discussion, seems to be a perfect case of balancing love and wisdom. everyone has their own balancing to do.

as for myself, even taking money for what work im doing disturbs me, however, i have balanced it, and learned to carry the burden of what i cannot balance, while striving for highest purity.

i am not telling what i would do, if i were in your shoes, because, that is your life, your situation, your balancing to do. this is why, i have mentioned about myself in the above block.

as a final word, i see this as a matter of balancing. this, is 'it'.

[thefool]

so then. where does those extra profits everyone make, come from ?

lets say there is X amount of total worth of goods, services, thousands of smiles generated.

and the entire system is built on profit, and, ( lets make up a percentage of profit like, %5), the system does 5% in total.

where does that profit come from ?

lets make it a closed system, and have 100 entities. lets say, these 100 entities generate 1 units of 'smiles' each. a total of 100 units of smiles generated. but, all entities ask for 5% profit for what they are giving.

where will the 5% more, come from ? where will the extra 5 units of smiles, come from, into this system ?

someone will have to give it. it wont materialize from thin air.

Actually it will materialize from the thin air of capitalism and I will show you how. The key concept is Circulation.

Let say 95 of these are fortunate ones and join the socialist club. They will all keep their smiles together and at the end of the month are given their wages as 1 smile each. So they will sing patriotic songs and can sleep peacefully in exactly same sized and similar looking sleeping quarters with the calm comfort knowing their neighbor has made the same amount of smiles exactly 1.

Now let's say only 5 of these unfortunate ones are thrown to the hell that is capitalism. So these people have to do something fast and innovate. They will figure out that each of them has a unique talent and ability to serve in a way that is needed by others. They all start with 1 smile each. Person A starts teaching yoga to others and gets 2 clients B and C, they give her 1 smile each. Then B starts a comedy show for all the rest they get A and D as clients and earns 2 smiles. C starts an arts class and gets 2 smiles from A and B. Meanwhile D comes up with a business innovation idea and come up with a gadget so you don't have to use the full smile but can use a fraction of it as a payment. He lets everyone use his idea and get .5 smiles each from A, B, C, and E. Now this paves the way for E who immediately opens a bank and lets everyone put the fraction of their 1 smile in bank for a month and then he promises to return 5% more at the end of the year. Meanwhile he buys 50% stocks in D's company with that money.

So what was the earning for A, B, C, D and E at the end of the month.
A earned 1+2=3 smiles, spends- 1+.5=1.5 smiles, saved- 1.5 smiles in the bank
B earned 1+2=3 smiles, spends- 1+1+.5=2.5 smiles, saved- .5 smiles in the bank
C earned 1+2=3 smiles, spends- 1+.5=1.5 smiles, saved- 1.5 smiles in the bank
D earned 1+2=3 smiles, spends- 1 smile, saved- 2 smiles in the bank
E earned 1+5.5=6.5 smiles, spends- .5 smiles, saved- 3 smiles in his mattress, Invested 3 smiles in D's business to earn more.

Total Earning for evil empire- 18.5 smiles

But wait there is more. Since this evil empire now has smiley money and a lots of it they attract the best and the brightest from the socialist club to come over and join them. Reluctantly scores of people come over and help build beautiful buildings and resorts and other forms to increase the overall richness of the society. These immigrants help by bringing their own expertize to the table and contribute. They also expand the market size and now E the rich and evil banker will have more money. Unless one of these new immigrants send their kids to schools and one of these kids open their own bank using the power of free markets. Maybe he will have 25 smiles making his earnings compared to other poor people who only earned 5 smiles; a big 5 times. But then again I would rather have my 1 smile and take comfort in the fact that my neighbor does not make more than me. oh well !!!

[unity100]

your approach fails at the point that, it assumes the cost and output value of a 'gadget' and a 'bank' and an 'investment' is not already calculated into the system. you are looking into the system from a lower point that its whole. and then saying that it materializes 'out of thin air'. it doesnt.

when the cost and output value of every generated value is produced, and entities ask profit over it, you end up with the situation i described above.

the exact nature of the percentages in the system, has no relevance to its output. the system may be producing more, through either working hard, or employing gadgets or any other means. it means that the people who are employing the gadgets and banks you speak of in your example, are producing more and making up for the asked profit. even if you give the gadget to everyone else.

this ends up in the situation that i describe as the system having to create more, to make up for the profit everyone asks. a self reinforcing spiral. it doesnt matter how its done -> when the entire system asks for more than the entire system has produced, either more has to be created, or someone has to pay it from outside the system into it.

[thefool]

your approach fails at the point that, it assumes the cost and output value of a 'gadget' and a 'bank' and an 'investment' is not already calculated into the system. you are looking into the system from a lower point that its whole. and then saying that it materializes 'out of thin air'. it doesnt.

It is the concept of CIRCULATION at work here. The same number of smiles move much faster in your closed system and create prosperity. are they transforming energy at a faster rate, You beccha!!! but since when it became a bad thing. The energy just gets transformed from one state to another. It never gets destroyed. as far as I am concerned they are making more with less while the socialist system is less efficient...All the socialist system start with great promises but end with disasters for people in it as the small elites take over the governance and resource allocation on 3D earth with disastrous consequences. While the only promise an individual based system makes is that you are free to lead your lives in the manner you seem fit. The individual is responsible and individual has the power as well. The role of the government is to stay out of the way other than providing basic services. The individual creativity is unleashed in the process and result is an overall abundance... there are elites in this system as well but the power is fragmented so no one has the absolute authority and of course government is kept very small to do any damage to the freedom and creativity of the people...of the people by the people and for the people...

At this point it is not about convincing you at all. I want anyone who is reading this thread now or ever, to have a fair understanding of the capitalistic system based on individuals. So people are able to choose wisely without misinformation like it is some kind of evil...

[Monica]

The same number of smiles move much faster in your closed system and create prosperity. are they transforming energy at a faster rate, You beccha!!! but since when it became a bad thing. The energy just gets transformed from one state to another.

Great point! Thank you for articulating what was in the back of my mind but hadn't quite formulated. This is precisely why I think we can't be sure of the net result, in regards to energy flow.

What is 3D reality but a manifestation of higher energies? So it makes sense to me that, indeed, energy can be transformed.

I'm not sure about the 'closed system' part (since I'm not sure what you mean by that) but I definitely agree with the point about energy being transformed.

It never gets destroyed. as far as I am concerned they are making more with less while the socialist system is less efficient...All the socialist system start with great promises but end with disasters for people in it as the small elites take over the governance and resource allocation on 3D earth with disastrous consequences.

That happens in capitalist systems too.

While the only promise an individual based system makes is that you are free to lead your lives in the manner you seem fit. The individual is responsible and individual has the power as well. The role of the government is to stay out of the way other than providing basic services.

That is the ideal, but not the reality. Look at our own government. As a former campaigner for Ron Paul, who is a Libertarian believing in extremely limited government, my eyes have been opened to the blatant fascism in our very own government. It is a myth that the people here have freedom to choose their leaders, pursue the American dream, etc. Big corporations are running this country.

The individual creativity is unleashed in the process and result is an overall abundance...

I don't see that at all. I see most average people struggling.

there are elites in this system as well but the power is fragmented so no one has the absolute authority and of course government is kept very small to do any damage to the freedom and creativity of the people...of the people by the people and for the people...

Are you referring to the US? Did you say, small government?

At this point it is not about convincing you at all. I want anyone who is reading this thread now or ever, to have a fair understanding of the capitalistic system based on individuals. So people are able to choose wisely without misinformation like it is some kind of evil...

I think both systems have some high ideals but are susceptible to corruption by STS infiltrators who give the people the illusion of the ideals, but in reality they are running the show.

The idea that people can choose, without misinformation, is also a nice ideal, but I don't see that happening when it comes to politics. I saw this firsthand when I was campaigning for Ron Paul. He was actually censored from the mainstream media. He came in 3rd in the 1st primary and they actually falsified the results. I saw this happen. It is documented. We finally had an honest candidate, who wasn't in bed with big business, and he got censored.

[thefool]

I think both systems have some high ideals but are susceptible to corruption by STS infiltrators who give the people the illusion of the ideals, but in reality they are running the show.

I think most of your questions have been answered right here by you. I agree that we are o where close to the ideal. I believe as you do that this is due to STS infiltration to power seeking and grabbing positions.

But like I mentioned in my last post- The opportunities for total power grab and total corruption is minimized in the system based on individuals while a socialist system lends itself to complete control and dominance by one small elite group.

---

I don't see that at all. I see most average people struggling.
--

There is a difference between struggle and struggle. There is a difference between a person suffering in US and person suffering in another country.

That is a significant question. I think most US citizens who are born in US and have little exposure of the outside world, don't appreciate how good they have it here. People have become complacent and used to having things and comforts so much that they complain about small things. And the mainstream STS media sells the same narrative to them.

I know it is not perfect but all I can tell you is that we are speaking only comparatively. You are not perfect, I am not perfect and nor do I expect anyone including the government to be perfect on this planet in this density.

[Monica]

I think most of your questions have been answered right here by you. I agree that we are o where close to the ideal. I believe as you do that this is due to STS infiltration to power seeking and grabbing positions.

Agreed.

But like I mentioned in my last post- The opportunities for total power grab and total corruption is minimized in the system based on individuals while a socialist system lends itself to complete control and dominance by one small elite group.

Disagree. I don't think the socialist system is any more susceptible to corruption. If anything, it may be less so in certain respects, while the capitalist system may be more or less so in other respects.

I think a lot of this is just that we've been taught to believe the capitalist system is superior. The word socialist has a lot of negative connotations. They typically spit the word (as they do liberal) as though it were the epitome of evil, totally glossing over the fact that BOTH systems have susceptibility to corruption.

This is indoctrination. In order to get even a hint at the truth, I would rather learn from those who live in other countries, as to what their reality is like, rather than just believing what our government and mass media tell us.

Needless to say, the socialist countries have their own indoctrination. I'm just saying it works both ways. I think it's a myth that one system is inherently good while the other bad. Both have certain good qualities. The socialist system has ideals of serving the common good, while the capitalist system has ideals of individual freedom. The former is susceptible to suppressing freedoms, while the latter is susceptible to greed AND suppressing freedoms, with, if anything, even more deception, since it is under the guise of freedom. Most people here in the US are oblivious to the machinations of the government behind the scenes. They are oblivious to the manipulation and control of elections. They have the illusion that they are freely choosing their own leaders. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It works both ways. It's a tossup as to which one has more STS influence. I don't think we can begin to calculate that.

[thefool]

This is indoctrination. In order to get even a hint at the truth, I would rather learn from those who live in other countries, as to what their reality is like, rather than just believing what our government and mass media tell us.

I was born in India and spend the first 28 years of my life in a socialist/democratic system having a completely different picture of than last 12 years have taught me from my own experience.

---

It works both ways. It's a tossup as to which one has more STS influence. I don't think we can begin to calculate that.

It is not a tossup at all. We know from the history who killed millions of their own people, imprisoned them and where there is more media control. You know about these mass killings in Russia and China. Do you not believe those to be the facts?

[Monica]

I was born in India and spend the first 28 years of my life in a socialist/democratic system having a completely different picture of than last 12 years have taught me from my own experience.

OK. I respect that your opinions are based on your own personal experiences. That is true for all of us.

But it's not a given that everyone in a given country will have the same opinion. Look at how polarized the US is. Those with opposing ideologies to the point of venomous hatred. So the fact that they grew up in the same country doesn't predict their views at all.

It works both ways. It's a tossup as to which one has more STS influence. I don't think we can begin to calculate that.

It is not a tossup at all. We know from the history who killed millions of their own people, imprisoned them and where there is more media control. You know about these mass killings in Russia and China. Do you not believe those to be the facts?

I don't dispute those events. Neither do I dispute that there is more media control in those countries. But it's a myth that our media is free, fair and balanced. It is controlled also. And capitalist governments have committed such atrocities too...just on a lesser scale. I see the same in both types of countries...it's just a matter of degree.

The corruption in socialist countries is more blatant; whereas, the corruption in capitalist countries is more clandestine. The clandestine nature itself adds to the corruption, in terms of net result, imo. I just don't see it as one being good and the other bad. I don't think it's nearly that simple.

Many people are fiercely attached to their chosen ideology, as with religion. And, as with religion, ideologies are only as good as the people who live by them.

[thefool]

OK. I respect that your opinions are based on your own personal experiences. That is true for all of us.

But it's not a given that everyone in a given country will have the same opinion. Look at how polarized the US is. Those with opposing ideologies to the point of venomous hatred. So the fact that they grew up in the same country doesn't predict their views at all.

Okey!!! I thought you wanted opinion from someone who lived in another country so I provided credentials.

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I don't dispute those events. Neither do I dispute that there is more media control in those countries. But it's a myth that our media is free, fair and balanced. It is controlled also. And capitalist governments have committed such atrocities too...just on a lesser scale. I see the same in both types of countries...it's just a matter of degree.

I can agree with that. That is what I have been saying as well. It is a matter of degree and we have less issues in capitalistic countries. The reason being the fragmentation of power. It is not concentrated power. it is by design. Founding fathers knew what they are doing. They created checks and balances between different branches of government. You supported Ron Paul so I expect you to know all about this anyways...

[Monica]

Okey!!! I thought you wanted opinion from someone who lived in another country so I provided credentials.

Oh, you're referring to my comment about asking the people directly rather than just blindly believing what governments say. Yes, I did say that. I didn't realize your comment was in response to that. I thought you were backing up your views by the fact that you lived in another country, so that was in my mind when I responded that different people in the same country can have opposing views.

Of course your opinion is valuable! Please tell us more about your experience, if you wish. Thanks for sharing.

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I can agree with that. That is what I have been saying as well.

It is a matter of degree and we have less issues in capitalistic countries.

This is where I disagree. I don't think we have fewer issues. We just have different issues.

We may have less blatant corruption, but, as I mentioned, the clandestine corruption is just as bad. Just in different ways.

The reason being the fragmentation of power. It is not concentrated power. it is by design. Founding fathers knew what they are doing. They created checks and balances between different branches of government. You supported Ron Paul so I expect you to know all about this anyways...

The system is indeed designed to have checks and balances. But that's not what happens in practice.

In fact, that was a huge part of Ron Paul's message...that our current governmnent bears very little resemblance to what our founding fathers envisioned and designed. Government has become bloated and corrupt....actually rather fascist in nature.