Humanity should respect animals.

[Monica]

But- as we have previously discussed- the examples you offer feature, almost exclusively, mammals. With the exception of the buzzard. Which sort of illustrates my point. Why should the mammals be a bigger concern to humans than any other group of animals?

The animals I listed were all carnivores. I wasn't thinking about whether they were mammals or not.

What about the fish? What about the amphibians? What about the reptiles? And those are just the vertebrates, which again, are most closely related to humans.

What about the sponges? Or the brachiopods? Or the starfish? Or parasitic worms? Don't they have a right to live too?

Humans don't kill those much. It is mostly cows, pigs, chickens and turkeys that are farmed and slaughtered, and make up most of the meat part of humans' diet, at least in the US. (I can't speak for other countries.)

No one has started a campaign to free the lizards, because lizards aren't farmed.

And animal activists typically do include fish in activism, though a greater concern is shown to farm animals, because at least fish have a normal life before they're caught and killed. (Not counting farmed fish.)

Or what about the corals? I could make a fair argument that corals are the most important animal in the ecosystem! Why don't all the animal activists join forces to save the corals, and then figure out what to do about the cows and chickens?

There are movements to save the corals! Though it might be more for environmental reasons. Every person can't take on every cause. There are too many causes. Different activists are drawn to different causes. The cause to take on factory farming has a very clear-cut agenda: to awaken people to the effects of their dietary choices.

But I think the "visible suffering" angle has some severe limitations. Just because a coral doesn't scream or writhe in pain when it is damaged, does that make its suffering any less important than that of a cow?

No, it doesn't. But people don't eat coral. My musings all had to do with using basic observation to make decisions about what to eat. Environmental impact, such as becoming aware of how coral reefs are destroyed, is a whole 'nother issue.

What about the insects? We have brushed on this several times before, but you sort of sidestep the issue. Shall we stand by and do nothing while the locusts devour our crops out of "respect" for their right to life? What about mosquitoes and other vectors of disease which breed in areas that have been flooded out? Just leave them be?

I don't recall sidestepping the issue. I usually answer your posts point-by-point. Maybe I missed some posts...don't remember.

I've never advocated doing "nothing" about an infestation. But there are many measures that can be taken to coexist with insects, without letting them take over. I remember in a previous discussion, we talked about alternative, organic farming methods that allowed sections of the crops for the insects. I think Austin commented on that.

Strong plants don''t get decimated by insects nearly as easily as weak plants. A lot of the problem has to do with mono-farming. The problem is much deeper and the solution requires a complete overhaul of agricultural methods, which is happening, thanks to the growing organic agriculture industry and farmers like Austin.

And we have yet to touch on any of the other kingdoms of life. Algae and cyanobacteria are WAY more central to our ecosystem than the cows, or the chickens, or even the humans! What about the fungi? Do we let the black mold grow in the basement because we don't want to bring harm to it?

I'm all for protecting algae. I had a business for several years selling wild algae, and protecting its natural habitat was a very big deal to us. Its ecosystem was so efficient that if half the algae were removed from the 30-mile-long-lake in the morning, the lake would be full again by the end of the afternoon. It's the world's largest biomass producer. There's enough wild algae in that lake to feed every person on the planet a gram a day, enough to fill in the gaps nutritionally in many areas.

The oceans' algae population however, is rapidly dwindling. That is indeed a huge concern. If the oceans die, the whole planet dies. This is a very big deal that most people are oblivious to.

I'm not sure how this fits into the discussion, though, but maybe I missed something. I didn't read the whole thread.

As for black mold, I'd put that in the same category as bedbugs and cockroaches. It's an infestation, invading one's own home. Infestations don't usually invade for no reason, but because the home isn't kept clean, or maybe got flooded, etc. So prevention is the best solution to that.

That kind of thing doesn't happen on a daily basis. But people choose to kill animals for food on a daily basis.

I think I might know your response to this, and it is: Well why not do what we can? Well yes, I happen to agree with that. But I'm not saying we shouldn't do what we can. I'm not saying we shouldn't respect animals. Not at all!

What I am discussing is the philosophical basis behind doing this. For example, I question the value of generalizing the principle of harmlessness as applied to human-human relationships so as to apply to the relationship of humanity to life in general.

I agree. I think respect should be given to life in general. One can respect black mold without letting it take over their house and cause health problems.

I don't really see how one could respect a cow then kill it unnecessarily.

I think I understand your point, which is why have any sort of boundaries at all?

The reason is that we're stuck here in this physical reality and have to survive. We can't survive in a healthy way while allowing infestations of black mold. But we can survive, and even thrive, without eating animals.

Philosophically, it can reduced to some simple guidelines: When faced with a choice between compassion and cruelty, choose compassion. When faced with a choice between a violent way of solving a problem and a non-violent way, choose the non-violent way. Do what we can to prevent being in a situation where we have to destroy life in self-defense, but if we must do that, then do so consciously and realize that there might be some karma involved. Do what we can to minimize it and compensate if possible. We can't completely avoid harming other lifeforms, but we should do our part to minimize the harm.