To Vaccinate or Not

[Shawnna]

You've just stated my point - most do get vaccinated (thank you God!) and never suffer any ill effects.  In doing so, they are also choosing to help support good public health and protect vulnerable others from contracting a potentially lethal disease.

Ah, I guess I set myself up for that, didn't I?  

No - you are simply stating what is absolutely true.  

Actually, I was trying to soften my words, in an effort to not appear judging of your decision. What I really meant was what I said in the last part of the sentence, which you glossed over:

or at least none that have been connected to the vaccines.

I was trying to reassure you that, since you and your children didn't notice any apparent ill effects, you'll likely be fine from here on out. I've been vaccinated myself. I wish I hadn't been. But I was, so I must make the best of it. But just what did I mean by 'fine'? and what is meant by 'no ill effects'?

Thank you Monica, but honestly, I did not ask for nor do I need your reassurance that we will be fine.  This statement comes across as condescending; I hope that wasn't intentional.

It is now a fact that 1 in 2 women, and 1 in 3 men, will get diagnosed with cancer in their lifetime. Children are now getting cancer and diabetes. Some even have hardened arteries. It's now commonplace for children to be on multiple medications, for allergies, asthma, and other chronic illnesses. Just take a drive through any large city and count the children's hospitals, catering mostly to cancer.

Your posting of alleged facts without posting your scientific source material is at best, naive.  At worse, you are attempting to instill fear in others who have grown to admire and/or believe what you say to be gospel.  Frankly, neither is very helpful.

Are these children fine? I think not.

A century ago, cancer was considered an old person's disease. It was very rare for a child to get cancer. Not so today.  

Again, I take great exception to making a blatant, fear-mongering statement without supporting scientific evidence.

How much of that is because of vaccines? It's impossible to speculate, because there are so many other factors: environmental pollutants, hormone disruptors in soaps and shampoos, pesticides, artificial colorings and flavorings, excess animal protein (turns on the cancer gene), excess refined sugar, over-the-counter medications along with prescription meds, a toxic cocktail of drug residues in drinking water, fluoride, chlorine, and other poisons in the drinking water, cancer-causing chemicals in plastic bottles, radiation, lack of breastfeeding, hormones and antibiotics in meat and dairy, household cleaners containing ingredients known to cause cancer, pesticides on cotton clothing, laundry detergents and fabric softeners, and myriad other toxic chemicals that children come into contact with on a daily basis.

Exactly - so for you to bring this up in a dialog about vaccines strikes me as unconscionable.

Cancer doesn't strike at random. The alternative community - who actually HEALS thousands of people with cancer after the medical system has sent them home to die - knows exactly what causes cancer and exactly how to heal it.

It's a combination of toxicity, acidity, and lack of certain nutrients, along with an impaired immune system.

Again, where is your scientific evidence to support such a statement???  

I believe (note that I am acknowledging that this is a belief) that the experiences we have in this incarnation are chosen by our fully conscious Soul who knows exactly what Life Lessons we and/or the Soul Mates that we've partnered with need the opportunity to learn in this lifetime.  Please do not interpret this to mean that I am blaming anyone for acquiring cancer.  I am talking about this from a strictly Soul/Spiritual perspective.  Cancer can also be attributed to certain gene presentations.  Because I believe we choose who our biological parents will be - this is factored into that Soul choice.  Much of this is covered in the Journey of Souls by Newton.

With our children being exposed to so many poisonous chemicals on a daily basis, the single most important weapon to help keep them healthy is an intact immune system.

Vaccines disrupt the normal immune response.

In truth, the idea that vaccines don't cause any ill effects is absurd.

Why?

1. Because each individual ingredient is toxic. No one is arguing that mercury isn't toxic. How about alluminum? formaldehyde?

Here are vaccine ingredients: http://vaxtruth.org/2011/08/vaccine-ingredients/ Would you want your child eating these chemicals?

Again, you are not able to point to unbiased scientific evidence to support your assertion.

2. But here's the kicker: If the child ate these chemicals, they might have a chance of eliminating the toxins, through the normal eliminative channels. But these poisons are injected. Injected! And the poisons are all preserved with formaldehyde. Think about it. The poisons are injected into the bloodstream, along with a preservative, which means that the body can never eliminate the poisons!!!

How could that not cause ill effects?

Of course it does. We just might not associate the child's chronic allergies, asthma, or even cancer, with the poisons we injected into their little bodies years ago.

Again, your fear-mongering emotional-based statement does nothing to move this dialog forward.  Please show me one unbiased scientific paper that supports your assertion that vaccines cause autism, cancer, or any of the other maladies that you've chosen to bring into this dialog.  The fact is, you can't.  

Typically, parents of breastfed, unvaccinated children never experience any of the 'normal' childhood illnesses, ear infections, fevers, allergies, etc. Does this count? Does it indicate anything about the child's immune system? I think it does.

Please show me the unbiased evidence to support this statement.  I understand you "think it does".  Does that make it FACT?  No - it is simply an opinion and that is all.  

Even IF the vaccines prevented certain diseases (and that's a very BIG IF), it's trading 1 problem for a whole slew of other problems...potentially just as deadly, just over a longer period of time. If parents knew that vaccines drastically increased their child's risk of not only autism but cancer too, would they be so quick to inject those poisons?

Really - you still believe that vaccines do not prevent disease and death??  

You will now probably say "but no one has ever proven that vaccines cause cancer". Right. Not in the medical world, where cancer is BIG business...each cancer patient is worth $350,000 to the drug industry. 

This isn't being fear-based. It's being pragmatic, and thinking for myself and doing the math. Consider the source. Who stands to gain?

Those who benefit from vaccines, as well as cancer research/treatment benefit obviously.  Here's a fact for you, cancer has declined in the last 10 years.  And here's the website where I acquired this fact:  http://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/all.html

My heart aches for all who suffer.  Whether it be from a bad reaction to a vaccine or when contracting a potential fatal, preventable disease.

We all want the same thing: what's best for our children.

I also want what is best for other people's children; especially those who are vulnerable and unable to have vaccines.  I'm trying to help my sons know what it means to care as much about the impact our choices have on society as they have on us individually.

Interestingly enough, there was a story on NPR this morning (I don't believe in coincidence!) about the vaccine court and a woman whose 12 month old son became ill at the same time he got the measles vaccine.  She has tried for 15 years to find one doctor - just one doctor - to say that the measles vaccine he received was likely to have contributed (not caused, just 51% chance to have likely to contributed) to her son's disability.  She's never been able to find one doctor that with their training believes that to be the case.

Of course not. No doctor is going to be willing to risk losing his license.

The fact that she couldn't find a doctor to incriminate vaccines doesn't mean none exist. It just means that they aren't willing to lose their license by speaking out.  

She spent 15 years trying to find one doctor - just one - who could say that there was a 51% likelihood that vaccines contributed to her son's malady.  Are you saying she didn't try hard enough?  

Perhaps the better explanation is that the fear-mongering individuals who've taken this issue as their life's cause are simply louder than science when it comes to promulgating information?  

Here's a fact to consider, where did the idea that vaccines cause autism originate?   This is an excellent article that sheds light on the source of the proven false information:

http://www.everydayhealth.com/news/where...come-from/

I sell a device that many have stated has healed their chronic or even 'incurable' conditions, myself included. I did a presentation for 7 MDs and they bought if for themselves and their staff, but told me they wished they could share it with their patients, and use it in their clinic like they do in Japan, but they couldn't...because they might lose their licenses.

Yes - fear is everywhere, even within the medical community.  There are many physicians who have gone against the 'status quo' without 'loosing their license'.  All of the Ayurvedic practitioners are but one example.  It is quite possible to live a life of integrity and bring healing to humanity.  The fact that 7 MDs indicated their unwillingness to do so speaks volumes to the character of those 7 MDs, nothing more.

Is it possible your financial interest in this issue means it is difficult to approach it with an open mind?  Honestly, I think it would be if it were me.

It is clear you subscribe to a school of thought that seems to believe a youtube video constitutes irrefutable proof

WTF???

Here's a video from Mayo Clinic:

Pharmacogenomics at Mayo Clinic

Check it out! Mayo Clinic has - gasp - a youtube channel!

Youtube is just a venue, like the pages of a book. It doesn't make something irrefutable, or legit, or illegit. It is simply a venue.

I totally agree (try not to be shocked!).  

This Mayo Clinic video does not in any way provide proof that vaccines cause autism or cancer or anything else.  It is a good introduction to genome research as it relates to medicine - which is what I've been saying all along.

Did you miss the part about the graph being from the CDC? Did you also miss the part about me seeing that exact same graph elsewhere? and that you too could find it elsewhere if you cared to see for yourself?

But no...you missed all that because someone happened to post that graph...on youtube?

The venue doesn't matter. What matters is content.

No - I didn't miss it.  I simply stated that an individual who creates a powerpoint that includes a graph and posts it on youtube does not constitute irrefutable proof - that is all.  I have not validated the information and frankly, am not inclined to.  I think there could be many reasons that the statistics would indicate a decline in polio immediately prior to the introduction of vaccines.  

Does that mean that the polio vaccine has not prevented disease and/or death for millions?  Of course it doesn't.

By all means, don't bother looking up any of the thousands of people whose voice is heard only on the people's channel - youtube. Unregulated for the time being. Absolutely trust the medical system, since they are 100% irrefutable. Our medical system is shining bright light...with zero greedy people and zero corruption. Absolutely, if they say it's safe, then it must be safe, right? Never mind all those thousands of families who have the courage to speak up...they're not scientists so their observations mean zilch. Never mind when doctors and scientists have the audacity to post their findings - using CDC data!!! - on youtube. Because they chose to post their info on an unregulated channel, they are worthless, right? OK got it.

You know as well as I do that I've never, ever said anything of the sort.  'Nuf said.

- not in my book it doesn't.  I've yet to see anything that constitutes scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism.

Vaccines DO cause autism. If you don't believe that, then you are ignoring the many thousands of families whose children became autistic within hours of being vaccinated. Do you really need an 'authority' to tell you? I really don't understand how you can just disregard those stories.

I most certainly don't need an 'authority' to tell me anything - I have always made my own choices based on the research that I do and what I know to be good medical care, and public health policy.

And I am not disregarding the many stories that are published by those who have had a negative reaction to a vaccine.  I'm simply recognizing that anecdotal evidence does not constitute a solid basis for making a medical choice for myself or my family.  Nor does it make a good basis for public health policy.

It just doesn't happen in every case, obviously. Maybe it only happens if they have a certain genetic predisposition, or some other predisposition not yet discovered.

Until they discover exactly why vaccines cause autism in a certain percentage of children but not in others, then letting them inject those poisons into a child is playing Russian Roulette.

I will ask again, please show me the unbiased scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism.  That really is a pretty simply request.  

I do suggest you read the link I posted above regarding the original of the myth that vaccines cause autism - it is an interesting read for those who prefer to make decisions based on fact, not fear-mongering by those who stand to profit from instilling fear.

Those families played the game...and lost. They are pleading with other parents to listen. Their stories are valid. You can't just make them disappear just because the 'authorities' choose to suppress the data. 

I never said their stories were not valid - in fact - I said my heart aches for all who suffer.  I absolutely agree that there are those who are going to have a negative reaction to some vaccines.  If I haven't made that clear, I apologize.  Medicine simply can't predict (yet!) who will react and who won't, but I'm confident it will in the not-too-distant future.

We don't live in a perfect world - of that we can all agree.  But at some point we have to do what is best for the greater good; rather than operate out of fear of what may happen to a very, very small number of individuals while at the same time making sure that if there is a negative reaction, we support and take care of the individuals and families involved.

That's easy for you to say, since you were one of the lucky ones.

Best wishes to you, Shawnna. My son is 26 so this isn't even an issue for me. So I'm going to bow out of this fruitless conversation. You lost me when you said I "clearly think anything on youtube is 'irrefutable proof'". LOL!!! 

I am indeed blessed (I prefer blessed to 'lucky').  I also own the choices I've made and I will never make a personal choice knowing that doing so could potentially harm another.  

Best wishes to you as well Monica.  My sons are 33 and 29, but I view public health policy as an issue for everyone.  I hope others who may stumble upon this exchange are willing to investigate facts, rather than fear-mongering.

Namaste