Why I am not a vegan

[Monica]

What I see is a misattribution of blame here.  Most people's intent is not to rape and kill animals (though some are).  Their intent is to eat food that will strengthen and nourish their bodies and the bodies of their families,

As we've stated previously, their intentions are different, but from the animals' perspective, it is exactly the same as a human rape/murder victim.

We speak from that perspective, because that is the one usually left out.

I personally don't agree with the idea that everybody can happily thrive on a vegan diet -- bodies are unique and run different fuel at different levels of efficiency

Scientific research shows that the human body doesn't need meat, or even dairy. Biologically, there is absolutely No need for it, at all, though some people obviously think they need it.

Perhaps in the realm of causation there was a certain amount of suffering involved in the actualization of that intent.  And perhaps not.  No one can really know that.  It's an assumption, like many things in life.

No assumption at all, but fact. It is a fact that the animal had to die in order to produce the meat. If we were talking about humans, no one would suggest that killing is ok as long as it was done 'without suffering.'

But did you know that some of the poorest countries in the world are the happiest, despite not having modern conveniences, and living by what many westerners would consider to be deplorable conditions?  Why is that do you think?  Why would they be content with less?  If you were to pluck one of us out of our world and plop them into theirs we would probably hate it, yet here they are, happy as clams.  Perhaps it is because they are content with less, because they haven't yet asked the universe for more.

Yes. Relevance?  

Let's engage in a thought experiment: If animals used for consumption were raised in pristine conditions, and experienced no suffering or pain, not even when they were slaughtered, would you still have a problem with them being consumed for food?  And if so, why?

Yes, because killing them is still a violation of their free will, and it's completely unnecessary.

Our ancestors had to hunt in order to survive. We don't. Therefore, it's unnecessarily ending the life of a sentient being.

Is an instant death after a good life worse than getting sick or disabled by old age and eventually slowly dying?

That is how it happens in the wild, where predators offer swift death to the old and injured. But farm animals are raised specifically for meat and dairy. It's a completely artificial construct.

Is the issue suffering, or eating meat?

Both

Do you realize that if you got rid of the livestock farms you despise so much that you would simply be killing the animals in a different way, as in, they simply would never exist in the first place, because they wouldn't be bred?  Their lives might not seem worth living to you, but would you deprive their 2nd density souls the opportunity for incarnation experience?

Breeding animals for the express purpose of killing them is an abomination. Raising them in miserable conditions, where they are literally tortured every day, is even more of an abomination.

Arguing that we are depriving those souls that experience doesn't hold up. That's like arguing against contraception because...just think of all the human babies who didn't get a chance to be born.

Also, if meat eating is so wrong, how do you reconcile the plethora of spiritual teachers in our world that eat meat?  Do you just assume they are all frauds?

Eckhart Tolle eats meat, Louise Hay eats meat, Esther Hicks eats meat, Darryl Anka eats meat, Adyashanti eats meat, the Dalai Lama doesn't eat meat, but if he's traveling apparently he will.  Hell, even Carla ate meat.  And these are just the ones I can name doing very little research.  There are probably a lot more.  How can people with such seemingly spiritual insight and orientation be completely blind to this if it is the anathema to compassion from your perspective?

The same reason all the other meat-eaters here at B4 do it: Societal conditioning, speciesism, denial, and self-interest. Many otherwise good and spiritual people thought human slavery was ok, because it was socially acceptable. It is the same with meat-eating today. Those spiritual people might be very evolved in many ways and may have offered wonderful contributions, but they still had the same blind spot. I don't put any human guru on a pedestal.

There are many other great spiritual teachers throughout history that saw the truth of meat-eating.

don't fall into the conceptual trap of assuming all livestock are treated badly

You don't think killing someone is 'treating them badly'?

I think people erroneously anthropomorphize animals, and then proceed to assume how a human would feel under a given set of conditions.  The 2nd density animal kingdom has similarities to 3rd density, but are VERY different, and to assume that most people simply don't care whether they cause suffering because they eat animal protein is presumptuous in the extreme.

Animals feel pain and fear just like humans. Animals are much more like humans than they are like carrots. That is simple observation.

You say 'VERY different' ...please tell us how animals are different from humans.

to assume that most people simply don't care whether they cause suffering because they eat animal protein is presumptuous in the extreme.

No, most people are just ignorant. But that is rapidly changing. Once people are aware, and they still insist on satisfying their taste at the expense of sentient beings, then I can only assume at that point that they don't care.

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