Revised question: Your country in 3D no longer exists when Earth goes 4D ?

[Ali Quadir]

in my opinion, slavery, is slavery.

I agree of course, my point is only that many people will not trade luxury for freedom. We can declare ourselves freemen, I believe there's law allowing that. But it does not make our lives easier.

but there is a more important catch in this - the wealth of those wealthy in those countries are made a reality by exploitation of the countries they are taking immigrants from, both in the near history of a few centuries earlier, but also throughout this century by use of capitalist domination tools like conglomerates, monopolies, treaties. in the last few decades, exploitation of cheap manpower was also added in the form of outsourcing work to those countries.

All true..

naturally some slave who has a big tv is better off than some slave in another country who does not. however, that tv, comes through a chain of slavery and exploitation.

Yes.. It's the old, all animals are equal, yet some animals are more equal than others story... It was originally a critique on communism. But by now it goes everywhere.

Socialism usually entered those countries after this flow of wealth had started. It should be seen as an attempt by the people to get some of the wealth back...

left wing ideas have been able to stage revolutions in countries which have been exploited to extreme, like eastern europe (thousand year of worse than slavery feudal serfdom, contrary to rest of europe), or colonies, or autocratic cultures like china. even china suffered a lot at the hands of japanese invaders.

all these situations bred grudges and (rather righteous) anger in these societies. the perfect way to create psychopaths.

And these.. Kids really, while growing up decide to make a statement against society, by killing a few other slaves whom no one will ever miss... Well, no one important anyway...

there hasnt been such a major situation in the west, because, the system there offered token upwards mobility. despite the ones moving upward has been low at all times (even in modern age), the system and established elite makes these an example, and if anyone questions it, they are shown the examples of those 'who made it'. for everyone that 'makes' it, however, there are thousands who 'cant make it'. and it is also a matter of interest that, the ones who 'make it', can never make it to the very top or the top 5%, able to take their supper in paris and dinner in bahamas. actually the ones who are going upper than upper middle class are very very rare, and being let to even do it requires acceptance and acknowledgment of existing
power structure and elite already.

Yes. Symbolic politics, give people the idea they can get ahead and they'll run the treadmill so much harder. I see it in my friends. A close one, a really nice guy, who joined a major international with dreams of making it to the top is working 60 hour weeks, he doesn't make more money than I do.. The difference is they hold promotion before his eyes. And you ain't gettin' it if you don't excel... If you do excel there's just a tiny chance of moving up.. He's got good university grades too, but it's not actually buying him much.. He makes less than a self employed plumber would. That is if the plumber can work 60 hour weeks. Which they can but burnout is very real there.

And in spite of the corruption in those countries typical socialist dictators like Chavez and Castro are actually chosen again and again because they do invest in free medicine and education to the ridiculously low level that they can (or want to) afford.

chavez cannot be equated with castro at any point. in his presidency, persecution didnt happen. if im not mistaken, even the right wing part of army which staged the coup against him was not persecuted.

In those politics I agree they're different. But I was referring to broken promises....

I have a colleague who actually fled that country though. The trouble there isn't that the government is intrinsically bad, it's just very corrupt.

currently, with the 59% in favor referendum he had the last time, (authenticated by international observers), and the situation above, i dont believe there is any other government that is more democratic on the face of the planet. especially when some of the g5 member countries' elections have been under scrutiny for fraud.

Well, that colleague of mine would disagree. There's more to living in a country than having a democratically chosen leader. As I said, a lot of broken promises...

Which tends to be a great step up from the former dictators who only invested in themselves. These people don't actually have much choices politics are usually ruled by socialist rhetoric and just a little actual socialism. And you can choose from your little hut between people who basically go yachting together.

what chavez is currently doing, is beyond 'some socialism'. they are actually going on the path of northern european countries.

It's what I said, the socialist promises that are kept have significantly improved life.

unfortunately judging from the bay of pigs incident, various other attempts in cuba, and the cia-instigated coup by the now-ousted elite in venezueal, that 'may end up wanting to take it back' never fails to come to fruition.

They've become efficient at it indeed..

it is appalling that the very people who have been sucking the blood dry out of masses just 10 years ago, have gone on 'protests' against 'dictatorship', giving statements to reporters about 'freedom', just because they werent able to make money that easily anymore, and being taxed of their huge income.

And that's the bottom line, if Venezuela could get it's act together it could end up being the new Sweden. But they're not there yet. Partly because the elected are basically all the same.

They are using socialism to buy votes. You can't blame the voters. They essentially get the choice between health food and education or none of the above.

People don't tend to think long term on an empty stomach.