There are points made well on both sides, but IMO Bring4th really needs to work on this "everyone is an island" mentality. This is supposed to be a community. Like, if I was at work, and I saw a customer blatantly abusing one of my coworkers, and they asked for my help de-escalating, would I step in? Of course this is a choice we all make in the moment. We can hold things we see happening to people right in front of us away from us and say, "This is not my fight, this is that person's catalyst" - but do we really believe this comes from a sincere, genuine, clear desire to serve others? Is this how a community works? (Or is it possible that there is a different "community" you feel more beholden to protect?)
What if you were at, say, a family reunion with your mother, or wife, and someone came up to you & her and said "Women are lazy. Mothers only know how to raise narcissistic airheads for daughters and etc etc Please read this really hateful and ideological pamphlet written by this other dude talking about how horrible women are" and your mother/sister/daughter was extremely hurt and/or scared. Would you react? Or would you just tell her smugly that she has the strength to deal with this on her own, and that you feel "weird and sad" that she's even looking to you for help?
The problem in this scenario is that the person who is bigoted against a group of people will not listen to that group of people. When a misogynist makes hateful statements towards women, to have a bunch of women standing up for each other is completely useless and only furthers to serve the "women are irrational/etc" narrative. Sometimes it takes someone "of their type" to speak to them plainly for them to understand, to balance the rhetoric, because they refuse to listen to the object of their hatred. I can recall posts I've made directly to earth_spirit that have gone completely ignored, because he obviously didn't want to hear it from me. This is why any requests for help from others was solicited. And instead of males rallying to say that what earth_spirit said might be a bit extreme, instead, they defended him. Don't you see how this might make the "targeted" group, who is already in the extreme minority, feel a bit marginalized?
So, in this context, I don't believe that that they could have duked it out and "bridged the gap in their differences". Do you think that was likely possible? Do you think if we took a KKK member and sat them down with a black person, that the two of them would be able to resolve their differences in a quick little internet back and forth? Do you think it's possible that some intervention might help benefit the discussion, words and thoughts from other, more balanced view points? Because what earth_spirit said was quite extreme. It wasn't just an off-handed comment, his ideology flat out condemns a whole group of people, more than half of the population in fact. This wasn't the first time he's posted about this either, it didn't happen in a vacuum. And the fact that the majority of this forum seems to think that this is okay and normal and acceptable in their community that has a stated goal of polarizing service to others is baffling to me.
To stop embodying the Story of Separation, we need people who will stand up and say "I'm not going to participate in this anymore." According to Charles Eisenstein, we need groups of people willing to do this to really anchor the New Story. For me, it's no longer okay to make blatant, hateful statements about groups of people, period. Not in my reality. It's certainly okay to disagree, to discuss opposing viewpoints, etc. But I believe this goes beyond a minor disagreement of viewpoints and into ideological territory.
What if you were at, say, a family reunion with your mother, or wife, and someone came up to you & her and said "Women are lazy. Mothers only know how to raise narcissistic airheads for daughters and etc etc Please read this really hateful and ideological pamphlet written by this other dude talking about how horrible women are" and your mother/sister/daughter was extremely hurt and/or scared. Would you react? Or would you just tell her smugly that she has the strength to deal with this on her own, and that you feel "weird and sad" that she's even looking to you for help?
The problem in this scenario is that the person who is bigoted against a group of people will not listen to that group of people. When a misogynist makes hateful statements towards women, to have a bunch of women standing up for each other is completely useless and only furthers to serve the "women are irrational/etc" narrative. Sometimes it takes someone "of their type" to speak to them plainly for them to understand, to balance the rhetoric, because they refuse to listen to the object of their hatred. I can recall posts I've made directly to earth_spirit that have gone completely ignored, because he obviously didn't want to hear it from me. This is why any requests for help from others was solicited. And instead of males rallying to say that what earth_spirit said might be a bit extreme, instead, they defended him. Don't you see how this might make the "targeted" group, who is already in the extreme minority, feel a bit marginalized?
So, in this context, I don't believe that that they could have duked it out and "bridged the gap in their differences". Do you think that was likely possible? Do you think if we took a KKK member and sat them down with a black person, that the two of them would be able to resolve their differences in a quick little internet back and forth? Do you think it's possible that some intervention might help benefit the discussion, words and thoughts from other, more balanced view points? Because what earth_spirit said was quite extreme. It wasn't just an off-handed comment, his ideology flat out condemns a whole group of people, more than half of the population in fact. This wasn't the first time he's posted about this either, it didn't happen in a vacuum. And the fact that the majority of this forum seems to think that this is okay and normal and acceptable in their community that has a stated goal of polarizing service to others is baffling to me.
To stop embodying the Story of Separation, we need people who will stand up and say "I'm not going to participate in this anymore." According to Charles Eisenstein, we need groups of people willing to do this to really anchor the New Story. For me, it's no longer okay to make blatant, hateful statements about groups of people, period. Not in my reality. It's certainly okay to disagree, to discuss opposing viewpoints, etc. But I believe this goes beyond a minor disagreement of viewpoints and into ideological territory.
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