Silence implies consent vs acceptance of what is

[Diana]

I guess I'm just baffled that we're still here arguing over "picking sides".

Because, that's part of what has been happening. Certainly it seems so to me as I read the posts. It may not be intentional, but to demand agreement will necessarily divide.

To me, this isn't about men vs. women. This is about someone who was abusive to a segment of the population of the Bring4th forum. And whether or not I was triggered by the hateful words personally, other people (victims who did not solicit this) were extremely upset and I heard the call to defend them. I have already stated that this could have been said about any marginalized group of people and I would have found it equally inappropriate.

I get that. Especially when female guests are reading the threads. However, following this thought of guests reading, how do you think they might feel reading the arguing and misunderstanding on both "sides"? I imagine that maturity and kindness toward an ignorant view would be far more empowering than defense and attack based on victimhood.

This is only my opinion. I have observed, here at B4, that to have any hope of bridging a gap of understanding, open-mindedness and tolerance—even of crazy ignorance—is the only way. Because someone who is stuck in ignorance, as our world has been for millennia on one issue tor another, is stuck. If a person wants change, then the person must nurture that change.

I know people eschew the idea of a "safe space" but I believe this is exactly what Bring4th should be. I don't think anyone should feel scared or ostracized because of their physical appearance/body. Yet, here we are.

Maybe I am not seeing what you see. But do you really think women might feel this way? Scared? As far as ostracized, well, yes, a lot of people come here for that very reason I think, because they may feel ostracized from society. But can we force this forum into a safe place? What is a safe place? And where does one draw the line between that and denial of catalyst?

It is a sketchy balance to maintain - free speech and protecting others. Obviously we don't want to stifle the blue ray, but if we're only in the lower rays anyway, some speech is less equal than others. I don't think you get to say "All women are lazy!" with immunity from anyone speaking back to you, or without someone trying, in the blue ray, to articulate why what you said lacked balance or a grounding in reality.

But it hasn't been "gotten away with." At this point you are trying to get people to agree with you. That's fine. But let's not call it something else. Certainly e_s has been called out for pages on these threads. It's up to him what he does with that catalyst. There have also been numerous apologies.

The words weren't just that women were lazy. They were specifically that "women are too lazy to provide any real value to society" amongst many other hateful things. I have also said what was especially jarring in his post were the blog links that were endorsed. The more we downplay what was said, the more we say it's okay to feel hatred and hostility towards each other. The fact that some people refuse to acknowledge that it's okay to be upset by such hateful words is also baffling.

It's okay to be upset, definitely.

One thing I think is a part of the main theme that is encouraged on this forum is that emotionality is unspiritual. I think people tend to side with the person who is displaying less emotions because they perceive that as more balanced. Earth_spirit's post was calm and collected and Glow's response was heated and angry - it's obvious which person has the "problem", right? Many people have spent many words trying to placate Glow and defend earth_spirit, instead of just validating her that what was said was inappropriate to say to people you are supposed to love, which is an assumption I believe we make when we enter Bring4th: that here we are loved.

Earth-Spirit's words seemed heated to me as well. But that was just my perception.

Being loved doesn't have only one interpretation. I won't lie to Glow just to make her feel better. How is that helpful? I must be who I am, and Glow seems capable of seeing beyond the surface. We are who we are.  You are asking that people be who you want them to be. An alternative is to work with what we have, and go from there, exhibiting patience, tolerance, and being proactive.

On the other hand, letting this whole can of worms explode is probably a great thing to move the energy.

This isn't saying that those who didn't jump right up and defend women did something wrong. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that it's shocking that the forum SUPPORTS this rhetoric much more than it abhors it. And I don't think this same type of rhetoric would have been supported and might have been much more likely refuted if it were about a different demographic.

I think you are pigeonholing reactions into two categories: supports and abhors. This only reinforces "sides."  

I obviously agree with Aion's Ra quote about too much order being negative. It's a personal mantra in fact. And if anyone thinks I get any enjoyment from a power trip of being a Bring4th mod, you are completely wrong. I would love to be on the other side to constantly, and naively, advocate for no censorship.

I'm sure no one here thinks you are on a "mod" power trip.

Not everyone outside the scope of moderation is naive when it comes to censorship. I'm quite sure there are those who understand how difficult the task is here to maintain some sort of balance and quality of standard.

Aion uses the metaphor of a sandbox. I've been trying to think of the metaphor of the garden. You can let a plot of land do its own thing, harmonize itself, all beings working with/against each other as they do, and you will still have something beautiful. But if you're going to make something intentional, as in, say a plot of land to harvest food, then you must take special care to encourage the beings (plants, microbes, bugs) you want to grow and harmonize and discourage the weeds that will choke out the plants/etc that are beneficial.

And yet, to follow this metaphor: The reason you need to garden is because humans have overridden this planet and caused an imbalance in the whole ecosystem. If we hadn't done that, then wild growth will have still been feasible. So, my only point is, there is always another way to see things.

This is something I truly struggle with in real life - pulling the weeds from my garden is literally painful. Who am I to judge what gets to live and die?

Yes, I feel the same. It can be so very difficult sometimes in this world.

But if I don't do it, then all the work I put into cultivating delicious vegetables is totally wasted by the end of the year. The extreme form of this is to grow a monoculture of crops and spray pesticides on absolutely everything that doesn't belong. Obviously it's about finding a balance. But in finding the balance there will always be errors on either side of the spectrum.

And that is what we are doing here in this conversation, teetering back and forth seeking balance.