Its murder.

[Ali Quadir]

My point was precisely that you cannot think like that. Just like you cannot drive up a 60 degrees slope. You end up in impossible situations. That's not catalyst it is reality.

Respectfully, Ali, think like what? In the way that you thought he was thinking? If so, then the person clearly IS thinking 'like that.' Which means, one CAN 'think like that.'

This was my opening to my message... So thinking in a way that takes STS and STO to the extremes exactly like the examples I have given.

Another arbitrary measurement of a creatures advancedness is the amount of genes it has in it's DNA...

Admittedly arbitrary? That is a human-based criteria.

Uhhuh, just like I suggest all criteria are arbitrary.

According to humans' criteria for intelligence, much less sentience, plants aren't even on the map. And yet Ra tells us that some trees have attained sufficient sentience to become 3D entities.

Clearly...

There is a flower in Japan that's about 10 times more complex than we are. We suppose it does not think, it has no brain. But it is a highly advanced entity none the less.

Physically advanced does not necessarily indicate sentience.

I gather that sentience is your arbitrary criteria? My point is that all the criteria used are arbitrary. Why would sentience be THE ultimate attribute to measure the value of a life form in? If that were true, fleas would worship us. They do not care about our sentience. Only other sentient beings do.. Therefore sentience is not an objective virtue but a subjective one.

Why do we not pick height? Weight? Speed? Because we don't have those things, as monkeys we value social aptitude and intelligence.

Well, again respectfully, those are the arguments put forth by the scientific community

I would reason that these values of social aptitude and intelligence existed before science. Science just didn't question them.

I object to the notion of seeing Gaia as some sort of anthromorphized ball of clay.

Are you saying you don't consider Gaia sentient? Or do you consider Gaia sentient but way beyond humans' notions of good/evil etc.?

No I am saying I object to pretending she's a human in a big pearshaped form. Gaia does not have our brain, so she clearly thinks differently if she thinks at all I encountered her great wisdom, but I haven't had anything resembling this talk. Trees don't think yet they are sentient. Fungi are probably the lowest life forms we can see. In some cases it's just cave slime. But it is sentient. But that doesn't mean it's like us in every way... Just in some ways.

What I am saying is that although the human form is a common expression it's not the only one.

Most of all creatures on earth die through violence or disaster. To claim that Gaia is innocent, knows nothing about that is in my opinion naive. It discredits the thousands of generations of indiginous people that this planet has known. And is right back in the christian/muslim/jewish mindset. Where God is great and all misery comes from the devil...

We know from Ra that the higher densities have a much better understanding of catalyst and don't view it with the same good/bad simplicity as the religions do.

That's my point really... It is a force of nature, we perceive it from our perspective, but that's not the only perspective.

I don't see Gaia as 'innocent' which implies naivete but do see Gaia as maternal and yet dispassionate at the same time. Gaia has graciously provided a schoolyard for juvenile delinquents to repeat 3rd grade, and at the risk of great peril to Gaia herself.

This choice must be an act of great love on Gaia's part.

Life is love. Love is another one of those nearly universal values. You're presupposing that she doesn't feel us as her self. My body is not me, but when I take care of it this is not an act of selfless love. I'm not saying that that's what it is, I'm only saying you're subconsciously providing meaning to her act from a perspective that is not hers.

Can a creature not be great and terrible at the same time? We are moral, I can deal with that, but why must we impose morality on everything around us? What is the problem in that? It's a fact of life that if you want to walk into the wilderness and eat what Gaia feeds you, survive truly as one of her children. You'd better come prepared. Most of us would not last 2 weeks. Gaia is brutal, no amount of love and light is going to change what she is.

Gaia is also generous and lays out bounty on her table. We just have to understand her and how to partake of that bounty.

Precisely. Now you're acknowledging that she is in some potential way beyond our current understanding.

I don't think thinking about her as we think of ourselves is the answer. A child before two years old has no real self image it doesn't recognize itself in front of a mirror. So even in a human life this enormous change in perspective takes place.

On what are we basing the assumption that she truly lovingly cares about us as individuals?

We have no way of knowing whether Gaia cares about each of us as an individual, but we do have enough data to conclude that she cares about the souls who need such a school, at this point in their development, for Gaia has endured much pain due to offering herself in service to us.

In what way? Gaia has also undergone great changes in her lifetime. Before she even gets damaged we'll long be dead. We could not live in her earlier stages yet she clearly could. We are at any rate more of a threat to ourselves than to her. However if we are part of her. And she perceives our health as her health. Like a mother would. But this still does not mean she is not a savage garden. This is how it has to be. You seem to dislike the idea of the "savage garden" But do you judge the lion who preys on the zebra as well? As souls we entered in this condition under our own free will. We knew we would eventually die here. However from a souls perspective this is simply part of the process.

A birthing process is also the most natural thing in existence. It and the death process are the pillars of our particular creation.