A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet

[Monica]

Moderator Note:  This post, along with several after it, have been merged from a separate topic "In Regards to Eating Animals (meat II)".

It's been a long, hard road, fraught with tension and misunderstandings. And yet, the road has provided a rich, scenic view, ripe with opportunity for compassion, understanding, acceptance, and spiritual evolution through efficient use of catalyst as pertaining to the STO path.

Towards the end of this long road, just before the road was blockaded, I had felt encouraged, because we seemed to be finally reaching some understanding, to the point of a couple of 'humane' farmers and I agreeing to work together on the common ground of educating people about the horrors of factory farming, and working together to reduce animal suffering in general.

This was a huge accomplishment! Any time 2 seemingly opposing sides can reach an accommodation and agree to work together on common ground, despite still having strong differences of opinion, that is momentous!

Can you imagine if Republicans and Democrats did this? Or pro-lifers and pro-choicers in the abortion debate? Or evangelical Christians and atheists?

It is my belief that finding such an accommodation is the epitome of acceptance. To accept one whose views or actions are diametrically opposed to one's own, to the point of actually working together with them on a common goal, is powerful indeed.

This is where the power lies...and by power I'm not referring to any sort of self-serving STS power, but to the power that gives impetus to change...the power that creates a 3rd option when before there were only 2 irreconcilable options...the power that forges a new path where before neither path was acceptable to both parties.

I have always contended that if we, who supposedly have the same spiritual foundation, cannot accept those with differing views and work together towards understanding and resolution, what hope is there for the rest of the world?

Seriously, how can we expect peace between Israelis and Palestinians, or between pro-lifers and pro-choicers, or between Democrats and Republicans, if we can't even have a civilized discussion about something that is part of our daily lives - our food - without the vegetarians and meat-eaters getting hostile towards one another?

If a Law of One student who eats animals and another Law of One student who doesn't eat animals can't even find peace, love and acceptance despite their differences, do we really have any basis for complaint when other people in other parts of the world engage in bloody violence?

Does not peace begin with us?

So it was with great sadness that I watched our 3+ years of labor, that had finally culminated in such power, be derailed due to moderator concern about a handful of complaints about the so-called 'discord' in the thread.

Was there discord? Yes indeed. But is love and acceptance about putting on a smiley face and suppressing that discord? Or is love and acceptance about working through such discord and reaching resolution?

I believe it is the latter.

In addition to the progress that was on the verge of being manifest, there was another breakthrough in the making, at the time of the thread's blockade. It was this post by Pablisimo, in which he represented himself, Diana and me, stating:

Dear Meat-eaters and all those interested in this subject:

This post is from Monica, Diana and Pablísimo. We love you all and thank you for the many rich catalysts provided by this marathon discussion.

We have noticed that many of the same questions and comments continue to crop up, and instead of repeating ourselves, we think we have found a better solution. At various times throughout this discussion, we have, along with a few others, attempted to take a multi-stage approach:

1) Deal with the hurt feelings, sadness, alienation, etc in what we hope was a compassionate and loving way, to relieve immediate suffering and clear emotional static so we could talk constructively.
2) Establish the absolute right of all of us to have our own opinions, even if other people don't like those opinions, which we hope was done respectfully.
3) Contrast extremist approaches, such as PETA sometimes uses, with what we vegetarians here had been doing, which was not extremist and predicated upon, among other things, spiritual growth.
4) Using reasonable analogies and words, explain our perspective clearly from a metaphysical Wanderer standpoint on the one hand, and from a compassion-based 3D human standpoint on the other.

At times, we have all -- vegetarians and meat-eaters alike -- gotten frustrated, weary, hurt, and discouraged at the lack of understanding, despite our best efforts. Please know that we, Monica, Pablísimo, and Diana, never intended to hurt, judge or offend anyone, and that we gave it our best effort!

We wish to answer all questions and comments, and since many of the same ones repeat, and we are all busy, this is our solution: We have decided to re-read the entire thread, in segments which we have divided amongst ourselves, and catalog key points according to topic. Hopefully, time allowing, sometime in the next couple of weeks, we will be posting a list of links to the posts which, in our assessment, most accurately reflect the points we have been trying to convey.

Should you wish to revisit this topic, or gain better understanding of the points we have tried to convey, we invite you to read these key posts. We plan to offer them here, arranged by concept/idea, for your convenience. In the meantime, once again, we thank you for your service, for your insights, and for your love and compassion which you have so freely and unreservedly bestowed upon us.

We would also like to take a moment to recognize the Creator in everyone who reads these words. We firmly believe this is an extremely important topic to consider for all evolving Beings walking an STO-oriented path, and thus we speak. Yet we also recognize that this one single consideration -- the meat or vegetable-based diet - does not define anyone's overall Polarity, Harvestability, or "spiritual fitness."

Our intention is not to judge our human-other selves, nor define their Polarity or Harvestability by one single aspect instead of the totality of many choices and aspects. Rather, our goal is to compassionately advocate for what we believe to be a kinder, more benevolent way of meeting our own needs while honoring our younger Brothers and Sisters, our animal Other-Selves. We sincerely hope that, in our ardor to speak out for those who have no voice, our sincere love and concern for our human Brothers and Sisters is also understood. We love all of you, ALL of our Other-Selves, regardless of density.

Bright blessings to you all!

Monica, Diana and Pablísimo

This was momentous because the 3 of us (along with some input from our compadre Pickle), had realized and identified the areas in which the thread had become bogged down, and had begun actively working on a solution for it.

It is doubly ironic that the thread was closed, right on the verge of us posting what we affectionately dubbed our 'autoresponder' which, in our estimation, would have dramatically curtailed any future discordant debates, for the simple reason that most of the vegetarians would have left the premises.

But alas, we never got the chance to post it, until now. So here it is.

Please understand that this is our sincere effort to simply offer our viewpoints, for the benefit of those are interested in understanding them. Since the original thread is shut down permanently, any future discussion is welcome here on this new thread. But please, before engaging in any new discussion, please use this index first, to locate and explore the thoughts that have already been so lovingly (and sometimes not so lovingly, but still sincerely) expressed by all the participants in the discussion, regardless of which viewpoint they were expressing.

We feel that there is a vast richness of thought and insight in the original thread, and we hope that this index makes it easier to access that richness.

As you may have noticed, there are many sub-topics that go far beyond mere 'diet and health' so much of the original discussion doesn't really fit in this new forum. Gary did say we are free to start new spin-off discussions, as long as they're kept on-topic.

In light of this, I've started a new discussion specifically about the question of whether animals are 'other-selves' at all, which I feel is the crux of the matter and highly relevant to any Law of One student interested in polarizing STO. Therefore, if anyone is interested in exploring that aspect of this very complex issue, please do so in the new thread:

Strictly Law of One Material  > What is an Other-Self? Are 2D Entities Other-Selves?

This thread, in the 'Diet and Health' section, is intended to be a continuation of the original meat thread, hopefully without continuing the discord, but instead focused only on any new angles to that which was already discussed.

Below you will find what is essentially an index to the original meat thread. It represents many hours of labor on the part of Pablisimo, Diana and myself. We had to re-read the entire thread (quite a daunting task!) and compile the posts that best expressed what we had been trying to convey, and then consolidate them into a single list, with topic, author and a link to the original post.

In many cases, the discussion following the linked post is well worth reading too, especially if you're interested in seeing other viewpoints expressed.

Is this list biased? Of course it is. It isn't intended to be a comprehensive index to the entire meat thread, but an autoresponder patterned after what Ra put in place, to answer the same call that kept getting repeated over and over.

Each post was carefully chosen because it offered some insight that had not been expressed anywhere else, or because it offered the same insight but in better words, that might better convey the idea where elsewhere it had failed.

On behalf of Diana, Pablisimo, and Pickle, I hope you find this useful as you traverse the maze of rich thought that has accumulated over the past 3 years, and I hope that any future discussion is respectful and fruitful.

Namaste and Blessings to All

Monica

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Why Vegan/Vegetarian food is a superior diet
Post #2 yossarian
Post #149 unity100

Raw Veganism
Post #6 yossarian
Post #8 yossarian
Post #11 yossarian
Post #35 yossarian
Post #91 Bring4th_Monica

Evolution of food requirements through densities
Post #37 ubergud

Monica's story
Post #40 Bring4th_Monica

Merging of the life force when plant eating
Post #49 Bring4th_Monica

But other animals eat meat! (3D Humans have a different path)
Post #25 Pablísimo

Meat eating and the STO Path
Post #50 Bring4th_Monica
Post #110 Bring4th_Monica
Post #111  Pablísimo
Post #177  Pablísimo

Less cruel meat production
Post #52  Lorna

Abstaining from meat eating is not a spiritual litmus test
Post #53  Bring4th_Monica
Post #2363 Pablisimo

Disconnect from what meat actually is
Post #59  Lorna
post: #1818 Monica
Post #2763 Diana
Post #2770 norral
Post #2637 norral

Discrimination and harrasment of vegetarians
Post #67  Bring4th_Monica
Post #74  Ali Quadir
Post #79  Will

Discussing meat eating in a discussion forum
Post # 76  Bring4th_Monica
Post # 108  Bring4th_Monica

The Ethics of Plant Eating
Post #86  Bring4th_Aaron

2D Entities & Suffering
Post #87  Bring4th_Monica

Leather clothing and other meat-derived items
Post #89  Bring4th_Monica

Rape & other analogies / Relative value of animals vs humans / Meat-Eaters NOT being compared to rapists! But killing animals compared to killing/raping humans from the victim's perspective / Do we wish to emulate higher STO (drinking nectar) or higher STS (mutilating cattle and abducting lower density entities) entities?
Post #96 Bring4th_Monica
Post #111  Pablísimo
Post #146  Bring4th_Monica

Extremism
Post #113  Bring4th_Monica
Post #118  Pablísimo
Post #130  thefool
Post #139  Bring4th_Monica

Factory Farms
Post #125  Lorna
Post #143  Pablísimo

Health effects of meat consumption / Benefits of vegetarian diet
Post #126  Peregrinus
Post #173  Bring4th_Monica

Animal sentience
Post #132  Bring4th_Monica
Post #140  Bring4th_Monica
Post #141  Ali Quadir
Post #144  Bring4th_Monica

Pre-incarnational choice
Post #152  unity100

STS and eating animals
post: #155 Monica

Don't we need to keep the ecosystem and animal population in balance?
post: #158 Unity100

Where is eating headed; what does a sun "eat"?
post: #160 Unity100

Is kosher meat cruelty-free?
post: #177 Pablisimo

Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian?
post: #178 Pickle

Don't plants feel pain, too?
post: #188 Monica

B-12 deficiency
post: # 190 Monica, Pickle

Unusual benefit of vegan diet . . . no sunburns
post: #191 Pickle

Eating raw locally
post: #203 Monica

A little-known reason why raw beef is dangerous
post: # 208 Pickle

Amazing story of local plant offering itself for healing
post: #223 Monica

My reasons for being vegetarian
post: #224 Pablisimo
post: #227 Lorna
post: #255 Crown
post: #386 Monica

Meat increases risk of cancer
post: #236 Monica

You Tube video: 87% of all agricultural land in the US is used to feed farm animals; plus success at raw vegan clinic with major illnesses
post: #237 Monica

If every American gave up meat for 1 day a week . . . quirky facts
post: #253 Monica

Eggs, dairy, and the life-force of plants
post: #263 Monica

Possible signs of evolution away from predator/prey even in 2D?
post: #274 Monica

Plant devas
post: #328 Monica

The transition from meat-eating to vegetarian
post: #405 Monica

The transition from ingesting meat to ingesting light
post: #455 Ra, Monica

Animal treatment compared to human treatment by Orions
post: #497 Ra, Pickle, Monica

We kill to eat because we can, not because we need to
post: #404 Pickle

"World Peace Diet" excerpt and review
post: #331 Monica

Catalyst, rape, murder (human), and slaughter (animal)
post: #261 Monica

Philosophy on the divine nature of sustenance through densities derived from the Ra Material
post: #165 Unity100

But you feed meat to your cats and dogs, don't you? Isn't that hypocritical?
Post #643 Aaron
Post #644 Monica
Post #647 Monica and Oceania (and continues in post #656)

Love and joy towards plants
Post #668 Pickle

Developed compassion towards animals AFTER becoming vegetarian
Post #703 Pickle
Post #970 Pickle
Post #1096 Pickle & Diana

Fear hormones in meat
Post #718 Monica
Post #734 Diana (Also:

Feeling better on a plant-based diet
Post #737 Conifer16

But...but...Ra told Carla to eat meat!!! That means Ra favors the eating of meat, right?
Post #740 Monica
Post #1442 Monica
Post #2915 Monica

WHY be an activist for vegetarianism? And is vegetarianism a ticket to 4D?
Post #742 Monica
Post #721 Monica

'Free Range' Eggs and Dairy
Post #2938 Monica

What do 4D entities eat? Living foods / How do we get from Point A (meat) to Point B (living nectar)?
Post #818 Pickle
Post #883 Monica
Post #1360 Pickle
Post #1362 Monica
Post #1374 Monica
Post #2797 Monica
Post #2916 Pickle
Post #2513 Diana

Science shows that plants feel pain too! Therefore it's ok to eat animals!
Post #224 Pablísimo
Post #825 Monica (and a heated debate ensues, which continues for several pages)
Post #2675 Monica (plants communicating psychically - what does that signify?)
Post #2680-2682 Monica (group consciousness)
Post #2684-2692 Pickle
Post #873 Monica
Post #912 Namaste
Post #957 Monica
Post #2642 Monica
Post #1327 Diana
Post #1398 Pickle & Monica

Trying to justify one's self regarding the consumption of meat, by using
plants as a counter argument, holds no valid ground. And...what kind of
entities will cows be when they graduate to 3D?
Post #1405 Namaste
Post #1497 Monica
Post #1149 Monica - on Ra's statements about trees developing sentience
Post #2786 Monica
Post #2650 Diana
Post #2657 Diana

When Ra said "living foods" in 4D, did they mean bloody animals?
Post #1401 Monica

Is a farmer who has humanely raised his livestock for food guilty of murder and war against animals?
Post #2524-2528 Diana

Saying that eating meat is incongruent with STO path is NOT judging those who eat meat
Post #2547 Monica

Why is the animal left out of the equation?
Post #2560 Monica

Helpful resources for being veg in a meat-eating household, and nutritional info
Post #867 Monica

But I once knew a vegan who was sickly! And anyway, Carla eats meat!
Post #877 - 879 Monica

But...but...Ra said we could eat meat!
Post #881 Monica
Post #978 Oceania

Don't animals and humans have a mutually beneficial relationship? Cows and chickens want to be killed and eaten, right?
Post #903 Monica

Denial?
Post #927 Diana
Post #969 Monica
Post #1005 Austin (also views on 'humane' and 'sustainable' farming)

You vegetarians are infringing on our 'right' to eat animals, by expressing your views.
Post #947 Pickle and Monica

Free-range eggs not cruel...fish less cruel?
Post #973 Monica
Post #976 Oceania

Eating plants saves more plants!
Post #975 Monica
Post #1012Diana

Would you eat the animal if you had to kill it yourself? Is killing an animal as easy as plucking a carrot from the ground?
Post #991-993 Oceania & Monica
Post #1034 Oceania

What about killing trees for lumber?
Post #1008 Diana
Post #1018 Monica (also about plants being sentient...carrots vs trees)
Post #1025 (also a response to being told I think I know more than our Logos!)

What is Lifeforce?
Post #1051 Monica & Austin
Post #1057 Monica

What meat can do for us, vs. what we can do for the animal
Post #1066 Monica
Post #1163  Austin

Compassion for 3D entities only? Why not for 2D also?
Post #1068 Namaste
Post #1161 Austin

Love the person, disagree with the action
Post #1105 Austin

Progressing to a gentler way
Post #1113 Diana

Love and Acceptance of those with differing views
Post #1124 Austin

I don't like being told I 'should' do anything.
Post #1130 Monica

Loving the torturer while championing the oppressed
Post #1131 Austin

Link between diet and state of being are intrinsically linked...meat lowers one's vibration
Post #1142 Namaste

Is it ok to harm others, as catalyst?
Post #1157 Monica

Compassion for plants...raising carrots as pets!
Post #1165 Monica

Controlling the oppressor vs championing the oppressed
Post #1166 Austin

Supporting the meat industry
Post #1168 Diana
Post #1176 Austin
Post #1182-1184 Austin
Post #1251  Austin

"Appreciating" the sacrifice doesn't stop the suffering
Post #1194  Austin

The reason for suffering...catalyst! and how to respond to catalyst!
Post #1242 Diana

If you feel good about your choice, then our opinions won't bother you.
Post #1245 Austin

What vegetarians have to endure every day - please cut us some slack!
Post #1266 Monica

Is eating animals conducive to polarization? And should we even care about that?
Post #1270 Monica
Post #1366 Monica

But what about bugs and microbes? And do you care about cows more than humans?
Post: #1590 Pickle
Post #1272 Monica
Post #1444 Pickle & Aaron
Post #1461 Diana
Post #1468 Diana
Post #1470 Diana
Post #1472 Diana
Post #1474 Pickle
Post #1490 Monica

Guilt about eating meat
Post #1275-1277 Monica & Diana
Post #148 Monica

Guilt Serves a Function
Post # 78  Bring4th_Monica

Dr. Gabriel Cousens MD has nearly 100% success rate with those who want to be vegans but crave meat
Post #1428 Monica

Darwinian evolution vs Law of One evolution
Post #1430 Monica
Post #1442 Monica

Are vegetarians motivated by compassion, or do they just want to control  society? and aren't they infringing on the rights of others to choose their own diet? and isn't that yellow ray, not green?
Post #1447 Monica
Post #1449 Monica

Does animal torture drag down the vibration of the planet? Is the meat industry holding us back?
Post #1451 Monica

But I only eat 'humanely' slaughtered animals...why are you lumping me in with those who eat at McDonald's?
Post #1454 Monica

The metaphysical significance of blood
Post #1460 Monica & Tenet Nosce

What's easier to do? Trim a hedge or cut the leg off an animal? Cut the throat of a cow or pull a carrot out of the ground?
Post #1477 Namaste
Post #1479 Namaste

Vegetarians are hypocrites because they eat plants!
Post #1483 Monica

When does a 2D entity become self-aware?
Post #1488 Monica

Should an STO entity participate in knowingly causing suffering for
other-selves, since, after all, they're going to die anyway and it's all catalyst anyway?
Post #1492 Monica

What are cows trying to teach humans?
Post #1496 Diana

Bottom line: We must eat plants. We don't have to eat animals.
Post #1501 Diana

Is it 'ok' to kill animals as long as they weren't tortured? (so-called 'humane' slaughter)
Post #1512 Monica

Chlorophyll and Superfoods
Post #1514 Pickle

Be a vegetarian by eating locally, getting acquainted with wild foods,
and sprouting, if you don't have much variety in your local
supermarkets.
Post #1515 Monica (with info from Austin on sustainable agriculture)

How do you 'know' that killing animals is wrong?
Post #1525 Monica

Meat=Genocide
Post #2497-2500 norral

Eating meat requires a suppression of natural compassion
Post #1529 Monica
Post #2496 Monica

Are plants in constant agony?
Post #1532 Monica
Post #1534 Icaro

Plants vs. animals for food
Post: #1542 Diana

On spirituality and meat-eating
Post: #1543 Namaste
Post: #1584 Pickle
Post: #1749 Pickle
Post: #1753 Diana
post: #1823 Pickle
post: #1935 Pablisimo
post: #1984 Diana
post: #2018 Diana
post: #2135 (includes stats on going veg) Monica
post: #2252 Pickle
post: #2343 Pickle

Definition of sentient
Post #2739 Diana

Health and meat-eating
Post #2649 Pickle
Post: #1604 Monica
Post: #1608 Pickle
Post: #1790 Monica
Post: #1793 Pickle

Avoiding uncomfortable subjects, such as meat-eating
Post: #1618 Namaste

Videos of animal awareness and commentaries on the subject of meat
Post: #1627 (Dog Rescues Kittens) Monica
Post: #1737 (Why love one but eat the other?) Monica
Post: #1761 (Study shows lab rats would rather free a friend than eat chocolate) Monica
Post: #1766 (pigs & hens remarkably intelligent!) Monica
Post: #1787 (Smart cows! And pigs are just like dogs!) Monica
post: #1818 (Not ready to go totally veg? Here are baby steps you can take to eat more compassionately...and a hilarious video of people buying 'fresh' meat) Monica
post: #1844 (elephants reunited) Monica
post: #1845 (orangutan mother and baby) Monica

But we really don't know what cows think. They can't talk to us. Maybe they want to be eaten!
post: #2066 (cows communicating) Monica

Compassion and animals
Post: #1645 Namaste
post: 1872 Austin
post: #2099 (resource to compare compassionate animal farming) Austin
post: #2334 (factory farms) Pablisimo

The connectedness of all things
Post: #1654 Diana

3D vs. 4D
Post: #1656 Monica
post: #2132 Monica

3D vs. 2D awareness
Post: #1660 Diana

Moving toward a plant-based diet
Post: #1663 Oceania
Post: #1670 Diana
post: #2143 Monica
post: #2232 (protein combos) Monica

What Jesus, Buddha, and other spiritual leaders and writers say about meat-eating
Post: #1680 Monica
post: #1864 Diana

Raw foods and enzymes
Post: #1701 Monica
Post: #1707 Pickle

The Native American way of meat-eating
Post: #1732 Diana
Post #2503 Monica

Accepting mainstream thought on nutrition
Post: #1755 Pickle

Decided to be vegetarian based on thread
Post: # 1756 Fr33dom

Raw Vegan info
post: #1995 Monica, Video of raw vegan body builder
post: #1798 Diana, raw vegan wrestler

Sustainability
post: #1809 (growing green with no animal products) Monica

Growing vegetable food
post: # 1811 Monica

The Inuit & their diet of meat
post: #1832 Diana
Post #85  Bring4th_Monica

Most crops grown to feed meat animals - highly inefficient - we could end starvation by feeding people instead of farm animals, + kill fewer plants too!
post: 2026 (80% of corn) Pickle

In response to criticism and vegetarians
post: #2301 Pablisimo

Q'uo on Suffering
Post #2379 Monica
Post #2382 Monica

Is it our task to provide negative catalyst to animals?
Post #2660 Pickle
Post #2843 Monica
Post #2847 Pickle
Post #2371 Diana

Mainstream Documentaries (NOT PETA) and real, verifiable statistics about how meat is produced - please watch these to get educated, if you wish to take responsibility for your choices
Post #2824 Monica
Post #2837 Monica
Post #2848 Monica
Post #2850 Monica

Working on Common Ground
Post #2860 Monica and βαθμιαίος

Acceptance and Compassion: Which is the key to polarizing STO? and...to the extent necessary for individual metabolism
Post #2876 Monica

More on guilt...and...Can eating meat be compassionate?
Post #2741 Monica

Some people need to eat meat, right? What does the medical establishment say? Is eating meat necessary? Can a vegetarian diet be adequate and healthy?
Post #2745 Monica
Post #2612-2620 Monica

America's Mad Cow Crisis
Post #2635 indolering

Compassion for others vs working on self / What's best for the animal vs what's best for self
Post #2386 Monica
Post #2395 Monica
Post #2659 Monica

It's not about controlling others...it's about ending oppression!
Post #2879 Monica
Post #2881 Monica
Post #2892 Diana
Post #2397 Monica
Post #2913 Monica

Raising your own chickens for eggs
Post #2488-2490 Austin

Famous Quotes
Post #2440 Monica

Baby Chick
Post #2442 Monica

EDIT: I have created a new thread, to be kept updated with any new discussions:
MEAT Master Index

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