Silence implies consent vs acceptance of what is

[Agua del Cielo]

There are points made well on both sides, but IMO Bring4th really needs to ...

For me it's not about "sides" to start with, it's about a Common issue we Share at the moment...

I guess I'm just baffled that we're still here arguing over "picking sides". To me, this isn't about men vs. women...

Not sure what my mistake here could be...

One thing I think is a part of the main theme that is encouraged on this forum is that emotionality is unspiritual. I think people tend to side with the person who is displaying less emotions because they perceive that as more balanced...

very very very unfortunately i agree here!

I think there's quite some denial as well as fear involved.
And, i think, this is the basic problem, especially in the threads in question.
I made tons of suggestions in this as well as many other threads, apart from speaking openly about what i feel and what kind "background" (biographical, in Order to explain where my emotional difficulties are), which i feel i do often, there is nothing more that i could do.
As i already stated, These posts usually dont get much resonance if at all :/

Im caught between sharing what i feel is lacking here (Forum in general) and feeling, this is not the place where i can offer something that is of any value to the members, not sure if you can understand this.

[Diana]

I guess I'm just baffled that we're still here arguing over "picking sides".

Because, that's part of what has been happening. Certainly it seems so to me as I read the posts. It may not be intentional, but to demand agreement will necessarily divide.

To me, this isn't about men vs. women. This is about someone who was abusive to a segment of the population of the Bring4th forum. And whether or not I was triggered by the hateful words personally, other people (victims who did not solicit this) were extremely upset and I heard the call to defend them. I have already stated that this could have been said about any marginalized group of people and I would have found it equally inappropriate.

I get that. Especially when female guests are reading the threads. However, following this thought of guests reading, how do you think they might feel reading the arguing and misunderstanding on both "sides"? I imagine that maturity and kindness toward an ignorant view would be far more empowering than defense and attack based on victimhood.

This is only my opinion. I have observed, here at B4, that to have any hope of bridging a gap of understanding, open-mindedness and tolerance—even of crazy ignorance—is the only way. Because someone who is stuck in ignorance, as our world has been for millennia on one issue tor another, is stuck. If a person wants change, then the person must nurture that change.

I know people eschew the idea of a "safe space" but I believe this is exactly what Bring4th should be. I don't think anyone should feel scared or ostracized because of their physical appearance/body. Yet, here we are.

Maybe I am not seeing what you see. But do you really think women might feel this way? Scared? As far as ostracized, well, yes, a lot of people come here for that very reason I think, because they may feel ostracized from society. But can we force this forum into a safe place? What is a safe place? And where does one draw the line between that and denial of catalyst?

It is a sketchy balance to maintain - free speech and protecting others. Obviously we don't want to stifle the blue ray, but if we're only in the lower rays anyway, some speech is less equal than others. I don't think you get to say "All women are lazy!" with immunity from anyone speaking back to you, or without someone trying, in the blue ray, to articulate why what you said lacked balance or a grounding in reality.

But it hasn't been "gotten away with." At this point you are trying to get people to agree with you. That's fine. But let's not call it something else. Certainly e_s has been called out for pages on these threads. It's up to him what he does with that catalyst. There have also been numerous apologies.

The words weren't just that women were lazy. They were specifically that "women are too lazy to provide any real value to society" amongst many other hateful things. I have also said what was especially jarring in his post were the blog links that were endorsed. The more we downplay what was said, the more we say it's okay to feel hatred and hostility towards each other. The fact that some people refuse to acknowledge that it's okay to be upset by such hateful words is also baffling.

It's okay to be upset, definitely.

One thing I think is a part of the main theme that is encouraged on this forum is that emotionality is unspiritual. I think people tend to side with the person who is displaying less emotions because they perceive that as more balanced. Earth_spirit's post was calm and collected and Glow's response was heated and angry - it's obvious which person has the "problem", right? Many people have spent many words trying to placate Glow and defend earth_spirit, instead of just validating her that what was said was inappropriate to say to people you are supposed to love, which is an assumption I believe we make when we enter Bring4th: that here we are loved.

Earth-Spirit's words seemed heated to me as well. But that was just my perception.

Being loved doesn't have only one interpretation. I won't lie to Glow just to make her feel better. How is that helpful? I must be who I am, and Glow seems capable of seeing beyond the surface. We are who we are.  You are asking that people be who you want them to be. An alternative is to work with what we have, and go from there, exhibiting patience, tolerance, and being proactive.

On the other hand, letting this whole can of worms explode is probably a great thing to move the energy.

This isn't saying that those who didn't jump right up and defend women did something wrong. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that it's shocking that the forum SUPPORTS this rhetoric much more than it abhors it. And I don't think this same type of rhetoric would have been supported and might have been much more likely refuted if it were about a different demographic.

I think you are pigeonholing reactions into two categories: supports and abhors. This only reinforces "sides."  

I obviously agree with Aion's Ra quote about too much order being negative. It's a personal mantra in fact. And if anyone thinks I get any enjoyment from a power trip of being a Bring4th mod, you are completely wrong. I would love to be on the other side to constantly, and naively, advocate for no censorship.

I'm sure no one here thinks you are on a "mod" power trip.

Not everyone outside the scope of moderation is naive when it comes to censorship. I'm quite sure there are those who understand how difficult the task is here to maintain some sort of balance and quality of standard.

Aion uses the metaphor of a sandbox. I've been trying to think of the metaphor of the garden. You can let a plot of land do its own thing, harmonize itself, all beings working with/against each other as they do, and you will still have something beautiful. But if you're going to make something intentional, as in, say a plot of land to harvest food, then you must take special care to encourage the beings (plants, microbes, bugs) you want to grow and harmonize and discourage the weeds that will choke out the plants/etc that are beneficial.

And yet, to follow this metaphor: The reason you need to garden is because humans have overridden this planet and caused an imbalance in the whole ecosystem. If we hadn't done that, then wild growth will have still been feasible. So, my only point is, there is always another way to see things.

This is something I truly struggle with in real life - pulling the weeds from my garden is literally painful. Who am I to judge what gets to live and die?

Yes, I feel the same. It can be so very difficult sometimes in this world.

But if I don't do it, then all the work I put into cultivating delicious vegetables is totally wasted by the end of the year. The extreme form of this is to grow a monoculture of crops and spray pesticides on absolutely everything that doesn't belong. Obviously it's about finding a balance. But in finding the balance there will always be errors on either side of the spectrum.

And that is what we are doing here in this conversation, teetering back and forth seeking balance.

[Diana]

Im caught between sharing what i feel is lacking here (Forum in general) and feeling, this is not the place where i can offer something that is of any value to the members, not sure if you can understand this.

Why not just share? Express your unique self.

As far as any outcome it will have, this is where the problems might arise. Adding light to the sum of light, in my opinion, is enough.

[Jade]

I have been scouring the original thread to find where this call took place.  I just re-read it, because I wanted to see if there was some call I missed.

I could not find any explicit call.  Any call for help was done after the fact, in the form of "Why didn't you help?"  Maybe you can point it out to me, Jade?  Because I really do want to understand what we expect of each other.

Again, I just want to state that I don't think an opinion, however odious, becomes punishable simply because it is written or spoken.  I do think people were surprised and angered that opinions like this were held among the membership.  I do admit to a distaste for people who expect everybody else to agree with them out of the box.

I'm not saying an opinion becomes punishable. I'm saying an opinion can be unpalatable and destructive to a group of people who are trying to harmonize with each other.

And I felt the call for help in both of Glow's posts, mostly when she said she felt no point in contributing to the discussion anymore. Because this is the state that women are put into when they are told, again and again, that they have nothing valuable to contribute to society: they become defeated. They feel like their voice doesn't matter, who's going to listen anyway? Why put in the effort? This is what I felt in her post, and why I felt a call.

I made the analogy earlier for you to decide when you would feel like you were receiving a call: What would your wife have to say or do for you to feel like she wanted your support in an issue? How much outrage would she have to show about something that was said about her, before you felt like you should comfort her?

But this just brings me back to the thing I'm confused about: if these expressions were truly hateful, why didn't you ban earth_spirit, Jade?  I really, really don't get this.  How can earth_spirit be at once dangerous and at the same time not be breaking the rules and need us to rein him in?  Do you see maybe how this doesn't all fit together for me?

Has Bring4th ever banned anybody? Certainly not while I've been on the mod roster, and likely not in the almost 4 years I've been posting here. I feel a little bit like you're being disingenuous by asking this. Do you really think this is the way to harmony? Do you really think that the mods default to this action to bring harmony? I guess by opening up the discussion, we are asking people if that's what they expect from a forum: If someone seems bent on sharing a hateful ideology, do we just censor them occassionally or tell them they are totally unwelcome?

For what it's worth, most of the time, Bring4th protocol is to put a person who is abusing their posting privileges on "mod status", which means they are free to make posts, but a mod has to approve them. The fact that e_s just decided to leave after we removed the post prevented us from taking any more punitive action, because it actually isn't about punishing people for having opinions. I think this is our attempt at "the light touch".

I agree with this.  But I think there's different viewpoints at work here.  I saw Glow's anger as her throwing down the gauntlet to fight, much as SMC has done in the past.  I did not see Glow as a victim of earth_spirits's.  I appreciate you pointing out how you see this because it helps me understand how narrow my vision is of these matters.

And I saw her reaction as one of pain and shock that someone would actually say something like that to her, on this forum. I felt it too. Did you see earth_spirit's post as the one initiating the throwing of the gauntlet? Because I feel like that's a point that's been missed: SMC and Glow were being blamed for the "escalation", when the original statement was so incendiary from the get-go, that I couldn't believe they were being blamed at all for the reaction they were having.

I don't understand how you can conclude that the forum supports those sentiments.  I don't see that at all.  Surely we can bring more nuance to this topic than you're either with the women or against them, can't we?

I said that it seems to support the rhetoric more than it abhors it, I didn't make an absolute statement saying that the forum supports this. And it's not just this, it's the subsequent discussion where I was told my words were more hateful that earth_spirit's, etc. There is an obvious bias in the forum, and it only makes sense because of the demographic skew.

Have you read this Q'uo, Jeremy? http://llresearch.org/transcripts/issues..._0204.aspx How do you feel about what Q'uo has to say about the work we have to do to balance the societal imbalance in gender perception? Do you think you are outside of it? Do we believe Bring4th has risen above this already? Because Q'uo seems to think it's a big deal, and encourages any effort we put into it.

The path of evolution is a path of integration. Integration involves portions of selfhood that have grown, that have developed over the course of a pattern taking place in many lifetimes, in such a way that not all portions of the being grow and evolve at the same rate and in the same way. And that creates a situation in which it is possible for portions of the self to be cut off from the larger whole, and to be forced to exist a kind of satellite existence on the periphery, causing perturbations, if you will, in the main body of the developing complex. In order to reabsorb these elements, one must, first of all, discover that they have in fact been denied admittance into the center. And one must find, first of all, a way to grasp how it has come about that they have been thrust out from that center. And then secondly, they must be loved as that which has been thrust out, and as that which properly belongs in the center.


And so, if we would discover that a significant portion of the female principle has been thrust out from the center of the pattern of spiritual evolution taking place upon a cultural level, there is remedial work of a fairly significant nature that must be done. And so we would agree that in order to take up a relation to this displaced female energy, that it must be brought back into a place of honor, and that is work which will require a good deal of self-reflection, not only on the part of those males which have been party to its repression, but also upon the part of the females that have learned to live within the framework of that repression.

It is a natural expression of this attempt to heal upon a cultural level that those presently embodied in female form might reach out in anger and attempt to claim their rightful place in the center in a way that can seem strident. Sometimes a certain amount of stridency is necessary in order to capture the attention of one who is, shall we say, asleep to a problem, who is not aware of the nature of the problem, of the scope of the problem, of the reach of that problem.

And so, there will be friction that one might legitimately anticipate as the female principle—in the persons of incarnate female individuals—wishes to announce that it cannot continue to be pushed to the margins, and that a balanced configuration of the social complex requires a greater integration of its female portion.

...

We will tell you that there will be no passage into fourth density until this work has been, to a large extent, done. That the doing of this work is essential to this passage, and the repair of the dysfunctions in the relations among the sexes is central to the integration of the social energy complex which governs your planet at this time, and which, in seeking its integration, seeks the first entry into a possibility it has not yet realized, which is to say, that it shall evolve into what we have called a social memory complex.

The development of that complex will be the work of fourth density. You presently stand at the entrance to that density, but there is work to be done, and we feel that in your question today, you have managed to put your finger on an essential element of that work, which suggests to us that you are very much about that work at this time. You would not have been able to identify with such clarity the nature of the problem had you not already been working on that problem for some time and at some depth. So we commend you to that effort and we would say that we have seen signs of a lessening of distortions and a beginning of a greater integration which shows promise.

[Aion]

One thing I think is a part of the main theme that is encouraged on this forum is that emotionality is unspiritual.

I wanted to pull this bit out of Jade's post and highlight it because I actually highly agree and not just on this forum but in society at large there is a general mistrust of emotions and a lauding of intellectualism. Even here you can see that more people are concerned with literal, word for word dissection of eachother's posts rather than what seems an attempt to look beyond to the intention of the person. I'm not even really sure what people are trying to prove by it other than some logical comfort of either being right or having 'figured it out'. I guess some people feel more respectful giving a point for point response or feel they are just teaching what they've learned. There's a lot of this 'Ive got you!' kind of attitude going around here it seems at times, like a wave of superiority complex or perhaps a manifestation of the opposite. (Ironically I feel this is the opinion most would try to 'get me' on.) There are some very hurt individuals around the forum. Maybe just ripples in the 'egregore'.

Honestly it's why I have not been participating for some time. It is very easy to feel drowned out in the huge posts of intellectual dissection and that there is this requirement of complexity to 'understand'. I don't think anyone really understands and that's what makes the whole thing kind of ironic. I love a lot of the thoughts here but I find a lot of it is just 'people expressing themselves' rather than 'people communicating with eachother'. That might just be a symptom of online interaction however.

I am speaking generally because it is a thought to 'the forum' and not any individual. I don't detest the state of things, they are just not conditions which always draw me in. I find myself glancing over a lot of posts just because so many people present a ton of ideas and I feel like I would spend my whole life trying to reply to everyone point for point.

[Glow]

I don't really have it in me to discuss this anymore but since I made this particularly mess I likely should at least apologize for said mess.

So sorry for whipping it up in discussion again. I communicated so poorly it didn't even go into the topic I intended but thankfully Jade sort of led it there.

Jade you did read my post correctly on the original thread. You might as well have been in my head so thank you for understanding.

Your comment on emotions being seen as unspiritual is sort of where I originally intended THIS thread to go because I think that runs parallel to being "moved" emotionally enough to step in and get involved.

Anyways I apologize for those I made feel judged, I truely wasn't judging each individual for the silence more feeling as Jade explained. Like I was being shown I had no value so might as well just not bother, poor assumption or not it sucked to feel that here.

I also will say I originally did come here like Austin, Agua, and Jade said many do to be amoung other wanderers and feel safe and embraced by people who get it.

I'm sorry I didn't embrace es when he made those comments, I had tried with a race issue a while back but made no headway, this time it just made me feel embarrassed I had foolishly thought members here were different and they hadn't just been humouring the dumb woman by answered my questions all this time. i know that is an emotional reaction but I swear that feeling was much stronger than any anger I felt for the ideas es promoted. Embarrassed.

Anyways I'm going to sign off for a while. I will be back. Thank you guys for being patient with me.
Like everyone I have real life stuff to deal with and I need coming here to feel like the safe haven it was. So time to let the dust settle for a few weeks.

Sorry again, and thanks to all.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Dear EVERYONE

Hello and welcome to the Law of One Forum hosted by the organization that brought us the Law of One.

In the Law of One there is an exercise.

(10.14) Exercise Two. The universe is one being. When a mind/body/spirit complex views another mind/body/spirit complex, see the Creator. This is an helpful exercise.

Dear everyone who has a problem with e_s's post.  I have an exercise for you.
Dear everyone who has a problem with people who have a problem with e_s's post.  I have an exercise for you.

When you look at e_s's post, see that you are the poster of those words.  See that this is you in another place, in another time, with other experiences, and they have said those hurtful things about others, and all of this, all of it, came from you yourself.  How would you react to your own self saying such things?  How would you talk to your self standing in front of you or sitting (metaphorically in front of you) behind a screen?

When you look at Jade's posts, see that you are her, and you are the one posting what she is saying.  How would you treat yourself(her) if you were talking to yourself(you)?

I don't understand it, Jade.  I don't get it.  I have been hurt and assaulted in ways worse than a sweeping generalization of my gender.  I have been specifically directly attacked verbally with screams calling me fat, lazy, no good, spoiled, rotten, lesser.  But I did not grow angry, I was saddened and depressed.  Yet I see looking back this was creator talking to herself, as she insulted me.  Describing herself in every attack labeled upon me.  I love and forgive.

Why won't you lead by example of the Law of One?  You can take that insultingly and I honestly will say the same thing.

I am you.  You are me.  I will speak to you as I would speak to myself.  I do this with e_s.  I do it with Aion.  I do it with Agua.  I do it.  Many times I discover new things about myself because of it, the depths of my sadness and misery, the heights of my love and my strength to be loving.

I have tried here, and given up on b4 once and stayed away for an entire year.  I am back now, and the catalyst still goes on and the FIGHTING continues.

This is all your prerogatives but to speak of this place being or not being a safe place when we all offer fuel to the flame of violent reaction to another whether it be physically or verbally or mentally, is just...  Please stop.  Stop and listen...

The only person here I'd say has their heart most purely in the right direction, is Diana.  We should consider listening to what she has to say because at the heart of her posts there is one, very, simple message.  Can anyone see it?

I will say what the heart of my posts is.  See another as self, accept them, forgive them, love them.

Whatever your reason or excuse, this is the heart of all matters.

Can we attempt to do this towards each other when we see someone saying something that hurts us?  I'm sure no one here on b4 intends in a post to attack anyone specifically.

I am serious, stop with all of your arguments and get to the point, here, on b4, someone expressed a powerful opinion and was basically censored and denied instead of accepted and forgiven.

Is the Law of One about censorship and denial?

I don't think so.  Why are any of you still arguing?  JUST LISTEN.

I
AM
YOU

YOU
ARE
ME

HOW WOULD YOU DEAL WITH YOURSELF IF YOU SAW YOURSELF SHARING SUCH STRONG OPINIONS AND BELIEFS THAT ARE HURTFUL?

Sorry for the assertiveness, but I see as far back as 2009 this forum has had this issue, this lesson reoccurring, this catalyst that once again has propped up here to be worked with... And all anyone did with few exceptions is argue and debate and fight.

Next time this happens, if anything less than acceptance is given (not even forgiveness and love, JUST acceptance), I'll make sure to show you all your inability to see other as yourself and your failure of Living the Law of One.  It seems we all need to be reminded the way we are here to learn to handle such things, at least on a forum environment.  It's a good test place to offer love to an anonymous stranger basically, and if you can't even do that, how can you consider yourself any better in physical life???

I reiterate.  Treat another as you would treat yourself.

Remember?  The Golden Rule?  Would you censor and deny yourself if you saw yourself saying the things e_s(((You))) said?

And don't say "'I'd never say those things!'" because you already have, from the nexus of e_s who, again, is you.

Sorry for the assertion, again.  It's very upsetting Jade seeing you fight when I feel you especially are the one most capable to see e_s as self and treat his opinions with love and mutual respect for it's being free to be shared, and not so much a love and respect of the opinion itself.

This forum isn't anything you people think it is, because compared to others forums, this place is a sanctuary.  If you cannot see that, then you have not attempted to make it so and that is no one's issue but your own.  There are no trolls here.  There are no flamers here.  There are a lot of spiritual people from many walks of life all with a similar interest.  How that isn't the closest god damn thing to a sanctuary on the CESSPIT of the internet is nothing more than impossible.

Accept, Forgive, Love your (other)self.

Why aren't we doing this?  What's the reason?  Why can't you?  What is wrong?  Talk to us, discuss with us, but for real.  Approach me as if I were you, or don't approach me at all. If you can't, then don't censor and deny others for your inability to see them as self.

Lets talk about the Law of One, I am you and you are me, how would you treat me if I were you saying these things?

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Sigh.  I'm sorry, its just so frustrating.  Why can't we just love each other like we were each other?

We're all important, Why can't we treat each other like this is true?

I'm sorry for my outlash but I'm so greatly filled with so many emotions here...

Why won't we just forgive?

Why not??!

[Aion]

I understand what you are saying, my friend, but I admit I see some irony because through all your speech of acceptances you are also lamenting the actions of other people, while at the same time telling people to accept others. Do you see how this might be a little contradictory?

Perhaps you need to practice your own exercise? Are you capable of perceiving yourself as separate, hurt and unable to forgive?

I think for myself I very much am able to see why others would have such a hard time forgiving because pain doesn't just go away at the convenience of others or often even at your own convenience. Maybe just brushing the conflict under the 'love carpet' isn't actually the most honest approach?

I would like to see more peace, absolutely, it is literally my magical motto - "In Peace" but you cannot force peace to happen, it comes about through the gradual process of balancing and equilibriation. I think that you have to deal with where you are. Peace, compassion, love, these are things to practice but they are also things which come gradually. I don't think you can just jump from a place of inner turmoil to a place of peace and forgiveness just because 'the Law is One'. There is more to it than that and a heck of a lot more emotion is involved.

It's easy to rearrange things in the mind for some people, it's easy for others to rearrange the heart, very rarely have I ever met anybody who has an easy time with both.

Rather for myself, I won't pretend that I live in some magical unity state where I am unbothered by anything ever. I also won't pretend that I don't have critical and sometimes judgemental states of mind. Most people face this with 'yes, I am also a hypocrite' but I don't think that way. I think 'yes, I am human' and believe that of us all.

Instead of characterizing the process of a person as this check and balance of their actions and words against themselves instead I see everybody as 'on going' and so when someone contradicts themselves or changes their mind on something I see it as a sign of progress. By that same token, when someone expresses a side of themselves they never have before I also see it as progress.

However, what does trip me up is seeing endless 'circles' and then when I start to get baffled and judgey in my own way because its like watching pain get pushed back and forth. I think it makes me most happy when people can agree to disagreement. I think that may be the peaceful resolution to most conflict on this forum.

[Minyatur]

I guess I'm just baffled that we're still here arguing over "picking sides". To me, this isn't about men vs. women. This is about someone who was abusive to a segment of the population of the Bring4th forum. And whether or not I was triggered by the hateful words personally, other people (victims who did not solicit this) were extremely upset and I heard the call to defend them. I have already stated that this could have been said about any marginalized group of people and I would have found it equally inappropriate.

Since I spoke of it being about picking sides, I want to say that to me what you wrote just here falls into exactly that. While its not about men and women, you are clearly still picking sides in-between other-selves based on those you resonate more with. So while it is not about women, its still always about a ressemblance to the energy you are distilling.

I personally don't think anyone is in the wrong, each is expressing where they are at in their path and ultimately, through the Law of One, they can only show you a portion of yourself you can integrate with in acceptance or reject.

One thing I think is a part of the main theme that is encouraged on this forum is that emotionality is unspiritual. I think people tend to side with the person who is displaying less emotions because they perceive that as more balanced.  

Well I think the Ra material is pretty clear on what balance is. I could share quotes but I think you know how it is described and to be balanced might just not be what you seek to begin with.

So I wouldn't say it is more spiritual to not feel anything, but it would definitely be more spiritual to look at your charged emotions as something requiring to be distilled and worked upon. To see the wounds that are contained in them and the the work that has to be done. But then like I said in the other thread, it feels more right to feel outraged than balanced, it feels more right to justify your wounds than seek to be free of them as they became your very sense of identity. So what I think these threads lacked is for each to take a step back after having had a charged emotional response, forget about the thread and in medition distill the energy it awoke in each as something that relates only to you and you alone, until you balance it to some degree, and then come back to the threads and try to look at them outside the scope of your own personal pain.

So emotionality is not imbalance. But emotionality can be both unbalanced and balanced and based on a lot of things you have said so far, I do think you do not value a balanced emotional response as you would not accept yourself to feel that way.

[Aion]

38.5 Questioner: Could you tell me how each of the rays, red through violet, would appear in a perfectly balanced, undistorted entity?

Ra: I am Ra. We cannot tell you this for each balance is perfect and each unique. We do not mean to be obscure.

[Minyatur]

However, what does trip me up is seeing endless 'circles'.

Maybe you should try to view it more as a spiral than just circles, since the spiral is the way of consciousness to advance and change and circles might make it seem like they do not lead somewhere nor that they distill anything at each turn.

[Agua del Cielo]

@Minyatur

I agree with what you said. I think it would ne beneficial for everyone to deal with what i would call old pain that has been triggered.
But even after that has been done, i think it's still understandable to react in a strong and definetly manner. I think besides the obvious old wounds, there arme still quite some things contained in the thread, that make it necessary to speak up against.

I would also say that i think WE ALL are dealing with old pain here that WE arme so much aware of, not only the women.
I think it's also okay to react emotionally, even if there's an amount of old emotions involved.
I just think WE should become aware of it After some Time, so healing can take place.

About that " emotional vs balanced" (no quote,just to give the context), i believe Jade meant (and i agree), some like to believe this is an expression of balance while i think it's just dissociation, the supressing and denial of all the unbalanced and unhealed emotions.
But i dont want to speak for Jade here, this is just my opinion.

[Minyatur]

@Minyatur

I agree with what you said. I think it would ne beneficial for everyone to deal with what i would call old pain that has been triggered.
But even after that has been done, i think it's still understandable to react in a strong and definetly manner. I think besides the obvious old wounds, there arme still quite some things contained in the thread, that make it necessary to speak up against.

I would also say that i think WE ALL are dealing with old pain here that WE arme so much aware of, not only the women.
I think it's also okay to react emotionally, even if there's an amount of old emotions involved.
I just think WE should become aware of it After some Time, so healing can take place.

About that " emotional vs balanced" (no quote,just to give the context), i believe Jade meant (and i agree), some like to believe this is an expression of balance while i think it's just dissociation, the supressing and denial of all the unbalanced and unhealed emotions.
But i dont want to speak for Jade here, this is just my opinion.

Well I personally have no preference over how things are dealt with but I think there are certain contradictions being expressed.

Still I think this is tricky, because what I described is not to repress your emotions but to seek to look at them for what they are. Are you truly distilling your old wounds by projecting them into a situation that triggered them without truly looking at the roots from which they come from? I think there are many ways to avoid working on your wounds and projecting them outwardly on situations that are not the roots of these feelings within you is a mean of that. So a step back and look within probably always is useful.

Personally, unlike what Jade said, I think what was tuly being called out is contradictions and nothing other. e_s was treated with the same kind of energy he was accused of displaying while trying to have it labelled as otherwise. If you want that kind of energy denied, then don't project more of it while hoping it won't get called out.

[Jade]

There will always be contradictions when we speak of paradoxes. I try to allow others to speak contradictions because I know I myself am speaking contradictions. It's very difficult to articulate things clearly and without contradictions. I believe this is why we all love and idolize Ra so much.

And for what it's worth, balance is not a lack of emotions or indifference. It's the state of radiating pure love, which to me, is intensely emotional.

42.5 Questioner: In the illusion that we now experience it is difficult to maintain this response especially if the entity’s attack results in physical pain, but I assume that this response should be maintained even through physical loss of life or extreme pain. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and further is of a major or principal importance in understanding, shall we say, the principle of balance. Balance is not indifference but rather the observer not blinded by any feelings of separation but rather fully imbued with love.

Ra also says that if one is unblocked to the indigo that the person radiates service to others:

The purpose of clearing each energy center is to allow that meeting place to occur at the indigo-ray vibration, thus making contact with intelligent infinity and dissolving all illusions. Service-to-others is automatic at the released energy generated by this state of consciousness.

[Agua del Cielo]

Still I think this is tricky, because what I described is not to repress your emotions but to seek to look at them for what they are.

I know, i wasnt refering to that but to how i perceive the general vibe here on the forum!

[Aion]

However, what does trip me up is seeing endless 'circles'.

Maybe you should try to view it more as a spiral than just circles, since the spiral is the way of consciousness to advance and change and circles might make it seem like they do not lead somewhere nor that they distill anything at each turn.

I think there is both.

[rva_jeremy]

I'm not saying an opinion becomes punishable. I'm saying an opinion can be unpalatable and destructive to a group of people who are trying to harmonize with each other.

So should earth_spirit not have said how he felt?  Is your problem what he thinks, or merely that he said it, or that he said it in the way he said it?

Is harmony a formula that just requires the right people and right opinions, or do we get to harmony through stuff like what we're going through?

And I felt the call for help in both of Glow's posts, mostly when she said she felt no point in contributing to the discussion anymore. Because this is the state that women are put into when they are told, again and again, that they have nothing valuable to contribute to society: they become defeated. They feel like their voice doesn't matter, who's going to listen anyway? Why put in the effort? This is what I felt in her post, and why I felt a call.

OK.  I appreciate that you recognized that.  But I didn't, and it's hard to see how I would have behaved differently having not recognized that.  Since I haven't had those experiences, I didn't feel the triggers that you were able to feel and recognize.

I made the analogy earlier for you to decide when you would feel like you were receiving a call: What would your wife have to say or do for you to feel like she wanted your support in an issue? How much outrage would she have to show about something that was said about her, before you felt like you should comfort her?

To be quite honest, I think my wife would share your criticism of me.  This topic comes up not seldom between us.  I get really confused when I think there's an argument between two people, they're participating vigorously, and all of the sudden one party just needs to be supported and it's not about the argument anymore.  That's definitely what the situation with Glow looks like to me, and while you were able to catch the subtlety of the shift, I have a really hard time with that.  It's a known issue for me.

Has Bring4th ever banned anybody? Certainly not while I've been on the mod roster, and likely not in the almost 4 years I've been posting here. I feel a little bit like you're being disingenuous by asking this. Do you really think this is the way to harmony? Do you really think that the mods default to this action to bring harmony? I guess by opening up the discussion, we are asking people if that's what they expect from a forum: If someone seems bent on sharing a hateful ideology, do we just censor them occassionally or tell them they are totally unwelcome?

I should not have said "banning"; I'm just wondering why moderator action was not seen as needed.  It's not disingenuous; I'm not actually calling for him to have been moderated.  Instead I was trying to get a sense for just how urgent you see this problem.  I totally appreciate that you're trying to open up the discussion and not simply moderate unpleasant stuff away.

I'll just put it on the table: a moderator is telling the rest of the group (those with no moderation role) why they should have checked a member who was behaving badly.  If the behavior was that bad, seems like the administration should have handled it.  If it wasn't that bad, seems like everybody should be entitled to engage with said member as they see fit, no?  It's not that what you're doing is wrong or anything, Jade; I just don't understand how both can be the case.  Either it's unacceptable behavior or its not.

There's this undercurrent to the conversation around the topic of what kind of community we are.  Situations like this are how we find out, I think.  For example, achieving harmony is really important to you, so it makes sense that you would see B4 as a safe space where people shouldn't possibly be triggered.   I value harmony too, but to me it's more a byproduct of other fundamentals: honesty, listening, compassion, etc. and not something we achieve in its own right.  The way to harmony is through disharmony.  So I kind of expect hateful ideologies at some point or another; as I said earlier, I don't consider B4 some island in the internet but part of the continuum.  What differentiates us is not what we talk about but the way we do it, in my opinion.

For what it's worth, most of the time, Bring4th protocol is to put a person who is abusing their posting privileges on "mod status", which means they are free to make posts, but a mod has to approve them. The fact that e_s just decided to leave after we removed the post prevented us from taking any more punitive action, because it actually isn't about punishing people for having opinions. I think this is our attempt at "the light touch".

I think I'd have a hard time looking earth_spirit in the eyes and saying he was not punished for his views.  That said, I agree that moderation at B4 has always aspired for the light touch.  That's why I've been sort of confessing about how I emotionally reacted to the different actors in this thread: because I realize that anything heavier than a light touch comes from a real place.

And I saw her reaction as one of pain and shock that someone would actually say something like that to her, on this forum. I felt it too.

Yeah, we saw a lot of similar reactions on the Trump threads.  "How can people who believe in the Law of One possibly like Trump?"  I get it.  While I think this mindset of "everybody who agrees with me about X should agree with me about Y" is a little entitled and presumptuous, I get it.

Did you see earth_spirit's post as the one initiating the throwing of the gauntlet? Because I feel like that's a point that's been missed: SMC and Glow were being blamed for the "escalation", when the original statement was so incendiary from the get-go, that I couldn't believe they were being blamed at all for the reaction they were having.

I saw earth_spirit as posting inflammatory stuff, definitely.  And I saw folks get inflamed by it.  All parties are equally implicated.  But I do want to point out one thing: everybody was trying to combat his beliefs, to change his mind or tell him why he wasn't welcome.  He wasn't being given any out.  Nobody told him that it's ok for him to think these things but that maybe he shouldn't share them.  No, everybody was preoccupied with changing him or his membership.

You can't have it both ways.  You can either fight the other side and take the emotional toll, or withdraw and be protected.  But you can't get in the fight and claim that you're the real victim.  That's the thing that gets me: when I see Glow and SMC and you taking him to task, I assume that you're choosing to do that and that you accept that it could get messy.  If you want help, ask for it.  If you want healing, don't engage in fights.  And if you're confused about all of this, I think it's unfair to assume that I would have some better read on it than you do!  You see what I mean?

Have you read this Q'uo, Jeremy? http://llresearch.org/transcripts/issues..._0204.aspx How do you feel about what Q'uo has to say about the work we have to do to balance the societal imbalance in gender perception? Do you think you are outside of it? Do we believe Bring4th has risen above this already? Because Q'uo seems to think it's a big deal, and encourages any effort we put into it.

I thought that was a tremendous reading and very valuable.  I think we are doing this work of correcting the imbalance right now, through discussions just like this one.  I think it's precisely because we're not outside of it that it's naive to come to B4 and expect that it would be any more enlightened than the rest of the planet.  No, we have not risen above it at B4 -- that's the whole point!

That said, I think how we play the cards is a different question than what cards we're dealt.  Quite frankly, we should expect to encounter crazy here.  What should distinguish us is how we handle it--our responses, our reactions, our love.  

That doesn't mean anybody handled it wrong here.  Like I said, everybody here did the best they could.  I think integrating Q'uo's insights would entail us appreciating how important these dustups are, and how we should be careful to listen to all the viewpoints.  I don't conclude from Q'uo's sentiments that "earth_spirit = wrong" and that that's the end of the matter (though I disagree emphatically with his views).

[Billy]

I would like to see more peace, absolutely, it is literally my magical motto - "In Peace" but you cannot force peace to happen, it comes about through the gradual process of balancing and equilibriation. I think that you have to deal with where you are. Peace, compassion, love, these are things to practice but they are also things which come gradually. I don't think you can just jump from a place of inner turmoil to a place of peace and forgiveness just because 'the Law is One'. There is more to it than that and a heck of a lot more emotion is involved.

This is simultaneously comforting and devastating.

[Aion]

I would like to see more peace, absolutely, it is literally my magical motto - "In Peace" but you cannot force peace to happen, it comes about through the gradual process of balancing and equilibriation. I think that you have to deal with where you are. Peace, compassion, love, these are things to practice but they are also things which come gradually. I don't think you can just jump from a place of inner turmoil to a place of peace and forgiveness just because 'the Law is One'. There is more to it than that and a heck of a lot more emotion is involved.

This is simultaneously comforting and devastating.

Sorry, I have a habit of doing that, lol!

These are things that I have been challenged by in my own journey, particularly a lot of impatience. I think it's really easy to get fed up and exhausted here so you want to give up. However that usually happens because you are expending your energy on your processes, so being worn out doesn't necessarily mean you're not getting anywhere. Healing takes a lot of energy and I think people expect they should be more energized through the healing process but I think it can be absolutely draining and exhausting to work towards. There is a lot of effort that goes in to resolving one's traumas.

[isis]

I would like to offer a few things:

@isis
my first offer is an apology to you!
Thanks for posting the conversation above!
i have to admit i was ready to put you in the "ass-box"

if i fits, i sits. no apology necessary, i sometimes do belong in the ass-box.

[Jade]

So should earth_spirit not have said how he felt?  Is your problem what he thinks, or merely that he said it, or that he said it in the way he said it?

Is harmony a formula that just requires the right people and right opinions, or do we get to harmony through stuff like what we're going through?

Of course harmony is achieved by what we are going through. I guess the question is, how much responsibility does each individual have to helping contribute to this harmony? Is it okay for people to come in with the intention of causing disharmony?

I'll just put it on the table: a moderator is telling the rest of the group (those with no moderation role) why they should have checked a member who was behaving badly.  If the behavior was that bad, seems like the administration should have handled it.  If it wasn't that bad, seems like everybody should be entitled to engage with said member as they see fit, no?  It's not that what you're doing is wrong or anything, Jade; I just don't understand how both can be the case.  Either it's unacceptable behavior or its not.

How can you say that? Obviously there are mixed opinions on this subject of acceptability/unacceptability. I'm not going to take my opinion and roughshod it over the community in an authoritative action. And we did act, we removed the post because to us as a team, it was obviously not conducive to the community we are trying to create, and a clear violation of the (rather lax) guidelines we have in place to attempt to keep this place on track in what can be the gravity well of the internet. And someone reposted the text in full, and we left that. So was anything actually censored? Is there really any hint of authoritarianism in our actions as it seems you may be trying to insinuate?

I know it's ironic to label behavior as "unacceptable" but the fact is that Ra states that "It is not within the limits of possibility to cause disharmony in any way" in fourth density so it seems to me that as we move out of duality and into fourth density positive, there are certain things that are "unnaccepted" as a consequence of the shift. Of course unnaccepted in the sense of a paradox. I accept what earth_spirit said, I accept entirely (and have my whole life!) that there are plenty of people who feel the same way that he does. There are lots of places where he could go talk about these things and feel supported, and loved, and accepted. He even got plenty of that here! Just, sadly, not from me. And maybe that's a failing in my application of the Law of One, I'll admit defeat.

There's this undercurrent to the conversation around the topic of what kind of community we are.  Situations like this are how we find out, I think.  For example, achieving harmony is really important to you, so it makes sense that you would see B4 as a safe space where people shouldn't possibly be triggered.   I value harmony too, but to me it's more a byproduct of other fundamentals: honesty, listening, compassion, etc. and not something we achieve in its own right.  The way to harmony is through disharmony.  So I kind of expect hateful ideologies at some point or another; as I said earlier, I don't consider B4 some island in the internet but part of the continuum.  What differentiates us is not what we talk about but the way we do it, in my opinion.

We have had this discussion before. The goal of this community isn't advanced Law of One - although that is how many of us use it - the original goal of this community was to be a place for lonely Wanderers to feel at home.

Again, I mean, it would be cool if Bring4th was just a free will free-for-all, but I think it can also be very productive to have a stated communal goal that is consciously worked towards by all members. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, is it? Is chaos the ONLY path to enlightenment?

I think I'd have a hard time looking earth_spirit in the eyes and saying he was not punished for his views.  That said, I agree that moderation at B4 has always aspired for the light touch.  That's why I've been sort of confessing about how I emotionally reacted to the different actors in this thread: because I realize that anything heavier than a light touch comes from a real place.

Well, I also agree that I wouldn't state that I believe he wasn't punished. You were asking me why I didn't punish him further/ban him. It's hard having this moderator name and being held to a different standard, I understand that's a responsibility I carry, but I definitely attempted the light touch until I felt completely and thoroughly insulted, to which yeah, I had to react from a real place, which I am allowed to do.  And that insult didn't just come from earth_spirit, I feel like in your staunch defense here of him you are missing some real subtleties of what transpired in that thread after what he said was posted.

Did you see earth_spirit's post as the one initiating the throwing of the gauntlet? Because I feel like that's a point that's been missed: SMC and Glow were being blamed for the "escalation", when the original statement was so incendiary from the get-go, that I couldn't believe they were being blamed at all for the reaction they were having.

I saw earth_spirit as posting inflammatory stuff, definitely.  And I saw folks get inflamed by it.  All parties are equally implicated.  But I do want to point out one thing: everybody was trying to combat his beliefs, to change his mind or tell him why he wasn't welcome.  He wasn't being given any out.  Nobody told him that it's ok for him to think these things but that maybe he shouldn't share them.  No, everybody was preoccupied with changing him or his membership.

You can't have it both ways.  You can either fight the other side and take the emotional toll, or withdraw and be protected.  But you can't get in the fight and claim that you're the real victim.  That's the thing that gets me: when I see Glow and SMC and you taking him to task, I assume that you're choosing to do that and that you accept that it could get messy.  If you want help, ask for it.  If you want healing, don't engage in fights.  And if you're confused about all of this, I think it's unfair to assume that I would have some better read on it than you do!  You see what I mean?

I don't agree this is the right way to look at things, Jeremy. Are you saying that people aren't allowed to stand up for themselves to an attack? Someone pulls a gun on me, and I try to defend myself - it's my fault if I get shot, because I was engaging with them at all? I mean the implication here is that if I just hand over my wallet, "no one gets hurt". Okay.

No one challenged his membership in the forums, in fact most people who were insulted were ready to leave and let him and the rest of the culture of the forum be (myself included). But the lack of conscious discussion about this "problem" is what drew me back in, because I felt like certain viewpoints weren't getting the articulation they deserved. I think the idea that because someone stands up for themselves/others against what is essentially a bully is victimizing themselves is seriously one symptom of what I see as an issue in the ideology interpreted from the Law of One. This is third density, not sixth. We're humans, not full embodiments of our higher selves.

I guess I am confused, because you say if you want healing, don't engage in fights, but in the middle of your posts, you advocate for an adversarial environment because this is how we learn. You said "The way to harmony is disharmony". So, which is it that you truly believe? Do fights heal or does avoiding fights heal?

I don't conclude from Q'uo's sentiments that "earth_spirit = wrong" and that that's the end of the matter (though I disagree emphatically with his views).

That is hardly what I've been implying and such an oversimplification of everything that I've attempted to say, that I feel like you haven't heard me at all.

[Agua del Cielo]

Just to say how i would dream of this place to be:

I'll use ee as an example, since this thread is related, but obviously this could be applied to anyone here
Instead of only reading ee's statement, i would Love to hear his story.
I would like to know what he went through, what his experience was.
I know of the conclusions he draw, but not what his life was like to lead to such.

I think most of us would ne willing to understand, to comfort, to show compassion.
Just imagine a community where you can openly show your wounds.
Where there is understanding, and always a hand teaching out to you!

It would need a lot of courage to do so, but i think it would be worth it.
Once you know the whole story, you understand.

And i imagine everyone acting like this.

Nothing would be hidden, there would ne much more understanding, compassion.
I think that is what happens in 4d.

We could start it right now!

I would also mention " non-violent communication" , maybe some know it.
It's a Great Communication concept.

You basically stay right by yourself, speaking only of your emotions, without blaming anyone.
That concept is really worth checking out!

[AnthroHeart]

If suddenly everything was no longer hidden I'd probably be dead. Everyone would judge me.

[Agua del Cielo]

If suddenly everything was no longer hidden I'd probably be dead. Everyone would judge me.

I guess everybody would understand you and compassionately love you!

[Diana]

I would also mention " non-violent communication" , maybe some know it.
It's a Great Communication concept.

You basically stay right by yourself, speaking only of your emotions, without blaming anyone.
That concept is really worth checking out!

I am familiar with nonviolent communication. It is very effective. One easy example is, instead of saying, "You make me feel x," you might say, "I feel x." It makes a huge difference when speaking within a relationship. And an underlying misunderstanding is bypassed: rarely do people intend to make other people feel badly, so saying "you make me feel x" is essentially not even true.

This approach removes the urge to defend one's self when being accused. It also allows for taking responsibility for one's own reactions and emotions.

[Agua del Cielo]

Maybe you could make a thread about it?
I think many would benefit!

Im lacking to many words in english to effectively describe it

[Nicholas]

This is an interesting 30 minute investigation as to what implies consent. It touches on cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and algorithmic feedback loops, legal definitions, as well as the media and state propaganda attempts to emotionally manipulate consent.

The Age of Consent

[Diana]

Very interesting radio show, Nicholas. What they are talking about, which comes from a very human, political, and cultural perspective, is very insightful and informing. And as I have reiterated so many times here, one of the reasons I think it's so important to unplug from the media, as only then can we disengage from the insidiousness and complexities of media manipulation, which has had decades of developing algorithms and research regarding input and output—action and reaction. And even that has been predicated upon centuries of ingrained and unaware acceptance.

One of the most insidious results of media manipulation is how egos are tapped, making people think they think for themselves, and this is touched on in the radio show when they talk about how your information creates a group of media feedback options that target you specifically, and I see this done with news. It's really crazy.

[Spooner]

There are points made well on both sides, but IMO Bring4th really needs to ...

For me it's not about "sides" to start with, it's about a Common issue we Share at the moment...

I guess I'm just baffled that we're still here arguing over "picking sides". To me, this isn't about men vs. women...

Not sure what my mistake here could be...

One thing I think is a part of the main theme that is encouraged on this forum is that emotionality is unspiritual. I think people tend to side with the person who is displaying less emotions because they perceive that as more balanced...

very very very unfortunately i agree here!

I think there's quite some denial as well as fear involved.
And, i think, this is the basic problem, especially in the threads in question.
I made tons of suggestions in this as well as many other threads, apart from speaking openly about what i feel and what kind "background" (biographical, in Order to explain where my emotional difficulties are), which i feel i do often, there is nothing more that i could do.
As i already stated, These posts usually dont get much resonance if at all :/

Im caught between sharing what i feel is lacking here (Forum in general) and feeling, this is not the place where i can offer something that is of any value to the members, not sure if you can understand this.

Feelings are very hard to communicate over written medium. What one person receives, another does not. We are often just responding to ourselves. And maybe we always are. But moreso than in person, written communication is a mirror. This is where in-person communication would be so much more helpful. But unfortunately we're spread a little thin geographically.