What does "The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions" mean?

[zedro]

My parents always used that saying in order to say that you can't just say you're going to do good, you also have to do it. So "intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action".

Its the actions that actually pave the road to hell. The missing ingredient is understanding what your actions are leading to, so in other words, understanding the results/consequences.

So they should have said, you just can't say your going to do good, but you have to know that it actually is. Then do it.

This reminds me of the giving homeless drugs thread. Your intent on positive action may signify your polarity, but the actual consequences of acting on those intents is what produces karma.

As far as I'm aware, it's the intent that causes the karma. Could be wrong though.

No because action causes consequence on the other, hence karma, which is external. Intent is polarity, which is internal and only affects the self.

[AnthroHeart]

My parents always used that saying in order to say that you can't just say you're going to do good, you also have to do it. So "intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action".

Its the actions that actually pave the road to hell. The missing ingredient is understanding what your actions are leading to, so in other words, understanding the results/consequences.

So they should have said, you just can't say your going to do good, but you have to know that it actually is. Then do it.

This reminds me of the giving homeless drugs thread. Your intent on positive action may signify your polarity, but the actual consequences of acting on those intents is what produces karma.

As far as I'm aware, it's the intent that causes the karma. Could be wrong though.

No because action causes consequence on the other, hence karma, which is external. Intent is polarity, which is internal and only affects the self.

Interesting. So how do the negatives here on Earth not have to face their karma for millennia?

[zedro]

Interesting. So how do the negatives here on Earth not have to face their karma for millennia?

Karma is basically a negotiation between otherselves to balance experience/the logos. Creating catalyst for each other is part of the evolutionary requirement. Karma isn't about punishing bad behavior, it's not about morals/ethics, or payback/consequence, it's simply an agreed upon balancing of experiences. Karma is like a type of force.

So everyone faces karma, it just not be what you expect it to be. Ra pointed this out, that determining what the exact karmic effects would be is impossible to determine. It can only be truly evaluated in hindsight in the final merging of all selves (end of the octave).

So karma doesn't equal 'bad', it's just a connection created between another entity to be resolved/balanced, instantly or in time, in the original relationship or through successive experiences with others.

For instance, me writing to you has a function of my polarity (service), it is my intent. If you never read it, well nothing happens karmically, no experience on your side was generated. Once you read it however, a karmic link is established as it now affects your experience. Now there may be an instantaneous dissolution of that karma if the effect on you is minimal, but if I catalyze you in some way (affect your evolution), we can get karmically entangled, and we may not be aware. While that doesn't mean we owe each other anything and may have no further engagement in this life or others, it may mean that we need further lessons elsewhere to understand how we created that entanglement in the first place, to understand our function in the creation itself. So if I wrote something that triggered you in a less than optimal way, I may need further lessons from interactions with others to optimize that aspect of myself (my karma). Conversely you may need further experience to balance yourself to optimize your learning (your karma). Trying to balance those karmic systems with further experience will generate other karmic systems, keeping that wheel turning until that evolution is resolved.

[Patrick]

My parents always used that saying in order to say that you can't just say you're going to do good, you also have to do it. So "intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action".

Its the actions that actually pave the road to hell. The missing ingredient is understanding what your actions are leading to, so in other words, understanding the results/consequences.

So they should have said, you just can't say your going to do good, but you have to know that it actually is. Then do it.

This reminds me of the giving homeless drugs thread. Your intent on positive action may signify your polarity, but the actual consequences of acting on those intents is what produces karma.

As far as I'm aware, it's the intent that causes the karma. Could be wrong though.

It's not the intent alone. Karma requires the action, BUT the karma resulting from an action is supremely affected by the intent behind the action.

Karma is not a stupid calculation only based on actions. It is an exquisitely precise calculation where your intent has a very heavy weight.

[zedro]

It's not the intent alone. Karma requires the action, BUT the karma resulting from an action is supremely affected by the intent behind the action.

Karma is not a stupid calculation only based on actions. It is an exquisitely precise calculation where your intent has a very heavy weight.

Of course, intent/polarity is the potential, action/karma is the kinetic. Everything is a push-pull recursive system of potential vs kinetic.

Karma (kinetic energy) then later informs polarity as it creates new potential energy.

Although I don't see it as a calculation, but rather an organic balancing mechanism. But that's just semantics I guess.

[Patrick]

It's not the intent alone. Karma requires the action, BUT the karma resulting from an action is supremely affected by the intent behind the action.

Karma is not a stupid calculation only based on actions. It is an exquisitely precise calculation where your intent has a very heavy weight.

Of course, intent/polarity is the potential, action/karma is the kinetic. Everything is a push-pull recursive system of potential vs kinetic.

Karma (kinetic energy) then later informs polarity as it creates new potential energy

Although I don't see it as a calculation, but rather an organic balancing mechanism. But that's just semantics I guess.

I think it comes from our ability to forgive ourselves. For example, if our intent was to do harm and we do it, we may find it harder to forgive ourselves. But if you do harm without having the intent, then you may find it much easier to bring yourself to forgive yourself.

[zedro]

I think it comes from our ability to forgive ourselves. For example, if our intent was to do harm and we do it, we may find it harder to forgive ourselves. But if you do harm without having the intent, then you may find it much easier to bring yourself to forgive yourself.

That is one aspect/tool, but not everything requires forgiveness, unless you think it does. We are trying to meet our evolutionary potential, and karma is the expression of that motivating force. So I would say a more generalized view is 'learning', forgiveness can be nested inside that. However the paradigm for 3rd density karma appears to be more specifically centered around forgiveness/acceptance, at higher densities the focus would be different.

[Patrick]

I think it comes from our ability to forgive ourselves. For example, if our intent was to do harm and we do it, we may find it harder to forgive ourselves. But if you do harm without having the intent, then you may find it much easier to bring yourself to forgive yourself.

That is one aspect/tool, but not everything requires forgiveness, unless you think it does. We are trying to meet our evolutionary potential, and karma is the expression of that motivating force. So I would say a more generalized view is 'learning', forgiveness can be nested inside that. However the paradigm for 3rd density karma appears to be more specifically centered around forgiveness/acceptance, at higher densities the focus would be different.

I've been pondering this question quite a lot. Only from the 3d veiled perspective though. Does karma requires forgiveness?

So far it seems that whatever one does to balance karma, excluding forgiveness, it never leaves it dead center. It's always balancing from one side to the other in between entities and the self. It seems that every time you succeed to completely stop the inertia is via forgiveness alone. But the process is not always called forgiveness. It may seem for example that you are meditating and pondering and that you reach a point of being able to let go (of some karma) just by doing this work, or breath work, etc.

All the while it could be said that this process was you forgiving yourself and others. There are many ways of achieving this which we may not intuitively think of as forgiveness.

[flofrog]

Totally think so too, Patrick

[zedro]

I've been pondering this question quite a lot. Only from the 3d veiled perspective though. Does karma requires forgiveness?

So far it seems that whatever one does to balance karma, excluding forgiveness, it never leaves it dead center. It's always balancing from one side to the other in between entities and the self. It seems that every time you succeed to completely stop the inertia is via forgiveness alone. But the process is not always called forgiveness. It may seem for example that you are meditating and pondering and that you reach a point of being able to let go (of some karma) just by doing this work, or breath work, etc.

All the while it could be said that this process was you forgiving yourself and others. There are many ways of achieving this which we may not intuitively think of as forgiveness.

You can't necessarily detect all karma, it's an invisible force that applies itself in a variable and contextual way. What you are sensing is what needs to be balanced in the immediate to progress. This is why I see it as a greater system, just not specifically as requiring forgiveness. And it doesn't need to be tracked, it's a pretty academic argument. You just need to respond to the karmic pressures as they present themselves.

[Patrick]

It's a chance that we are not aware of all the karma. We would probably shrivel on ourselves in hopelessness.

Spoon-feeding it to us is much more workable.

[zedro]

It's a chance that we are not aware of all the karma. We would probably shrivel on ourselves in hopelessness.

Spoon-feeding it to us is much more workable.

Well it simply may not be understood, because some aspects are beyond our current level of knowing/learning/awareness.

For instance Ra would have a strong karmic tie to us because of their consequential interactions in Egypt and and later LOO contact. Now they do not require to forgive themselves and accept their actions, they are beyond that, but they would have a higher level learning requirement to understand the greater impacts thereof. Now they might require that the recipients forgive them for their actions, but that is outside themselves, and invisible to the recipients conscious reality, but the higher selves would be aware. So perhaps forgiving the creation for the present circumstances may by virtue fulfill that role, but that is only a fraction of the equation.

[Patrick]

It's a chance that we are not aware of all the karma. We would probably shrivel on ourselves in hopelessness.

Spoon-feeding it to us is much more workable.

Well it simply may not be understood, because some aspects are beyond our current level of knowing/learning/awareness.

For instance Ra would have a strong karmic tie to us because of their consequential interactions in Egypt and and later LOO contact. Now they do not require to forgive themselves and accept their actions, they are beyond that, but they would have a higher level learning requirement to understand the greater impacts thereof. Now they might require that the recipients forgive them for their actions, but that is outside themselves, and invisible to the recipients conscious reality, but the higher selves would be aware. So perhaps forgiving the creation for the present circumstances may by virtue fulfill that role, but that is only a fraction of the equation.

I think you may be assuming that Ra acquired karma by their interactions with us in Egypt (or maybe I should say, assuming that there still is). But I cannot find anything that substantiate that.

I think they remain with us out of service and love and not because there is any karma left to process.

Questioner: Thank you. Would you define karma?

Ra: I am Ra. Our understanding of karma is that which may be called inertia. Those actions which are put into motion will continue using the ways of balancing until such time as the controlling or higher principle which you may liken unto your braking or stopping is invoked. This stoppage of the inertia of action may be called forgiveness. These two concepts are inseparable.

Everything is always subject to interpretation of course.

But this from Ra has always been very loud in its meaning for me. That forgiveness and the stoppage of karma are inseparable.

So on the other side of this argument where Ra still has karma with us, it could be because we humans have not released/forgiven them completely yet.

[zedro]

They most definitely created karma just by interacting, that's what karma is. Again it's this negative interpretation of karma that seems to be interfering with your analysis, if you reread my descriptions above to Central Sun, you'll understand the context. Karma is not necessarily so specific, there is a much broader meaning. Its the context of 3rd density that would be specific.

[Patrick]

You may be right. Plus I don't believe in good karma, so that might confuse things even more in such discussions.

[zedro]

I probably edited my comment after you responded....reviewing the Ra quote.

[Spaced]

This discussion of Karma is interesting. My personal take is that Ra's view of Karma seems to be in line with the Karma Yoga described by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, which states (I'm paraphrasing here but this is in Chapter 3 of the BG if anyone is interested) that one cannot attain freedom from karma by abstaining from work and renouncing the physical, indeed it is impossible to abstain from action as all beings are constantly compelled to act due to to their qualities born of material nature (represented by the three gunas which, as an aside, some tarot scholars equate with the three creatures pictured on the Wheel of Fortune card). The key to liberation then is not to renounce the physical, but to devote your action in service to others, in accordance to one's inner knowing, with no attachment to outcome. This is seen as the path of liberation from karma and the key here is the detached state. Another dimension of this is the idea of Dharma and seeing work as an act of devotion or sacrifice to the Supreme (i.e. the One Infinite Creator).

To me this seems to match up with what Ra says about karma if you consider forgiveness as a way of achieving a state of acceptance and unattachment. It also seems to me to tie in to the concept of intent being related to karma. This idea of work being seen as an act of devotion also seems to line up with Ra's concept of honor/duty/responsibility.

There's a passage concerning the life of Abraham Lincoln that seems to illustrate this view:

35.8 Questioner: Well in that case I would like to know the motivation for this use of Abraham Lincoln’s body at that time?

Ra: I am Ra. This shall be the last full query of this session as we find the instrument quite low in vital energies.

The one known as Abraham had an extreme difficulty in many ways and, due to physical, mental, and spiritual pain, was weary of life but without the orientation to self-destruction. In your time, 1853, this entity was contacted in sleep by a fourth-density being. This being was concerned with the battle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness which have been waged in fourth density for many of your years.

This entity accepted the honor/duty of completing the one known as Abraham’s karmic patterns and the one known as Abraham discovered that this entity would attempt those things which the one known as Abraham desired to do but felt it could not. Thus the exchange was made.

The entity, Abraham, was taken to a plane of suspension until the cessation of its physical vehicle much as though we of Ra would arrange with this instrument to remain in the vehicle, come out of the trance state, and function as this instrument, leaving this instrument’s mind and spirit complex in its suspended state.

The planetary energies at this time were at what seemed to this entity to be at a critical point, for that which you know as freedom had gained in acceptance as a possibility among many peoples. This entity saw the work done by those beginning the democratic concept of freedom, as you call it, in danger of being abridged or abrogated by the rising belief and use of the principle of the enslavement of entities. This is a negative concept of a fairly serious nature in your density. This entity, therefore, went forward into what it saw as the battle for the light, for healing of a rupture in the concept of freedom.

This entity did not gain or lose karma by these activities due to its detachment from any outcome. Its attitude throughout was one of service to others, more especially to the downtrodden or enslaved. The polarity of the individual was somewhat, but not severely, lessened by the cumulative feelings and thought-forms which were created due to large numbers of entities leaving the physical plane due to trauma of battle.

May we ask if this is the information you requested or if we may supply any further information?

I believe Ra's continued involvement here is related to this concept of honor/duty/responsibility rather than karmic bonds. They are here to serve as they feel that is the best use of their service.

23.10 Questioner: Thank you. Then as an overall success, what can you tell me about the relative success of the pyramid in any way at all? I understand that it was— the pyramids for the purpose were basically unsuccessful in that they didn’t produce the rise in consciousness that you’d hoped for, but there must have been some success. Can you tell me of that?

Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to remember that we are of the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow. When one has been rescued from that sorrow to a vision of the One Creator, then there is no concept of failure.

Our difficulty lay in the honor/responsibility of correcting the distortions of the Law of One which occurred during our attempts to aid these entities. The distortions are seen as responsibilities rather than failures; the few who were inspired to seek, our only reason for the attempt.

Thus, we would perhaps be in the position of paradox in that as one saw an illumination, we were what you call successful, and as others became more sorrowful and confused, we were failures. These are your terms. We persist in seeking to serve.

The way a wanderer would become karmically involved is laid out in session 12:

12.28 Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

Ra: I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

12.29 Questioner: What could one of these entities do to become karmically involved? Could you give us an example?

Ra: I am Ra. An entity which acts in a consciously unloving manner in action with other beings can become karmically involved.

This seems to also point to intention being related to karma, as the wanderer must act in a consciously unloving manner.

This is all just my interpretation of things, no doubt there are flaws in my understanding but I felt it to be worth sharing. I also don't wish to use quotes from the Ra material as gospel, I just find them useful in explicating my philosophical views.

[zedro]

Yeah I have to admit the meaning given by Ra (and traditionally) is alot more narrow, so perhaps I'm misusing the term to go beyond the intended scope. But I feel the utilisation could be expanded to other contexts, albeit with expanded mechanisms and solutions for 'neutralizing' it.

For instance, I use the term to also describe balancing principals between positive and negative interactions/interference in this plane, where if a positive entity gets to help, then a negative gets to have their turn to balance the playing field, and vice versa. Maybe I should use another term so it's more clear with the majority interpretation.

[Spaced]

Yeah I have to admit the meaning given by Ra (and traditionally) is alot more narrow, so perhaps I'm misusing the term to go beyond the intended scope. But I feel the utilisation could be expanded to other contexts, albeit with expanded mechanisms and solutions for 'neutralizing' it.

For instance, I use the term to also describe balancing principals between positive and negative interactions/interference in this plane, where if a positive entity gets to help, then a negative gets to have their turn to balance the playing field, and vice versa. Maybe I should use another term so it's more clear with the majority interpretation.

Yeah that is an interesting view, there is definitely a balancing mechanism at work, how that relates to karma is beyond me. I see it as related to the Justice archetype (the matrix of the body) while I see karma as related to the Wheel of Fortune (catalyst of the body). The matrix and potentiator (the Hermit) interact to produce catalyst. So maybe that could be seen as the way one directs their action (that's how I see the Hermit) coming up against the balancing mechanism to create karma.

[zedro]

Yes it could be subdivided into archtypal differences, that would make sense. Ultimately tho, all the higher selves have to 'agree' that the experiences where balanced to achieve system/Logos parity. That's where I see everything finally merging. The simulation has reached is max potential based on the archtypes used and then collapses.

[Sacred Fool]

  
Returning to GCS's question at the top of the page, if those of the darker persuasion can roll merrily along up through the middle densities without hitting a karmic wall, does this mean they are very good at forgiving themselves?
  

[Patrick]

  
Returning to GCS's question at the top of the page, if those of the darker persuasion can roll merrily along up through the middle densities without hitting a karmic wall, does this mean they are very good at forgiving themselves?
  

Maybe we are not forced to process karma until we decide that we want to work with it. So for STS they just accumulate the charge without ever programming anything to alleviate any of it.

[zedro]

  
Returning to GCS's question at the top of the page, if those of the darker persuasion can roll merrily along up through the middle densities without hitting a karmic wall, does this mean they are very good at forgiving themselves?
  

Well I guess this is why the definition of karma=forgiveness feels incomplete, as it seems to be for the positive polarity in 3d, but represents a different mode for negative in 3d. Would the negative catalyser require it to be forgived? Maybe in a delayed fashion, where negative polarity choice gets to defer their karma into a higher density (early 6th?) where they are already forgiven, but need to forgive themselves at the transition point for playing that role, and would that even look like forgiveness, more like understanding?

[Patrick]

I think we are allowed to delay it. But positive entities do not find any value in delaying the processing of it. Yet if only the possibility even exists for a such a thing, I can very well imagine negatives to make good use of that.

[Patrick]

Because at the end of the day, karma is not there to punish us, it's there as a tool for the seeker to help evolution.

[zedro]

I think we are allowed to delay it. But positive entities do not find any value in delaying the processing of it. Yet if only the possibility even exists for a such a thing, I can very well imagine negatives to make good use of that.

I'm thinking it has to be cleared for entry into 4d positive, at least in the context needed.

[AnthroHeart]

A teacher told me the dark ones use black magic to stave off their karma.

[Patrick]

I think we are allowed to delay it. But positive entities do not find any value in delaying the processing of it. Yet if only the possibility even exists for a such a thing, I can very well imagine negatives to make good use of that.

I'm thinking it has to be cleared for entry into 4d positive, at least in the context needed.

Ah yes, that would make sense. Then that may explain why the Logos had to create a different 4d realm (a negative 4d) that can be experienced with your load of karma intact.

[Ymarsakar]

For real black magick, what they seem to be doing is just accelerating the bad karma. So they cannot kill people that have not done evil things.

When it is their turn, they use bribes for 5th density entities to protect them when it is their turn to die. So they do not die. Like adolf.

This is a very unstable oyramid acheme

[zedro]

It would make sense why the negative 95% polarity threshold is so high, only then do you get to delay the karma, but less than that means a tough ride as you don't get the exemption because you aren't migrating to 4d-