Free Will Infringement, what is it?

[Minyatur]

Sorry Minyatur, just out of curiosity, where did you see at the beginning that Ra quotes that they are not those of the Love or of the Light ? Just curious,

It's quite literally at the very beginning:

1.1 Questioner: It seems members of the Confederation have a specific purpose. Is this true with you, and if so, what is your purpose?

Ra: I am Ra. We communicate now. We, too, have our place. We are not those of the Love or of the Light. We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized, the complexities are simplified, and the paradoxes have their solution. We are one. That is our nature and our purpose.

We are old upon your planet and have served with varying degrees of success in transmitting the Law of One, of Unity, of Singleness to your peoples. We have walked your earth. We have seen the faces of your peoples. This is not so with many of the entities of the Confederation. We found it was not efficacious. However, we then felt the great responsibility of staying in the capacity of removing the distortions and powers that had been given to the Law of One. We will continue in this until your, shall we say, cycle is appropriately ended. If not this one, then the next. We are not a part of time and, thus, are able to be with you in any of your times.

Does this give you enough information from which to extract our purpose, my brother?

To me the first session is where the material went somewhat off track from Ra's intent. If you take into account that their purpose with us truly lies in sharing the Law of One, then at question 7 in this same session they have asked Don if they have his permission to enunciate this law in more detail and in an inaudible manner they seem to have been denied the ability to do so.

So although a lot in the material resonates with the Love and the Light, I think this type of information being provided is more of a deviation of their original intent. Their purpose really was the Law of One, Unity and Singleness. Everything else I believe simply makes use of the exchange that was opened for that specific purpose at first but could deviate elsewhere by extension also. They did not want to control the exchange afterall, but they also did state their purpose clearly.

I'd love to know how they would have enunciated the Law of One in more details. That description already is my favorite part of the material and the one I believe is the most meaningful, yet what could have followed might've been even better. Oh well.

[Glow]

Thankfully I feel like they did broach that later when talking about how it is all rectified and the path that is not is equally valid.

At some point beyond paths there is just unity.

[flofrog]

Sorry Minyatur, just out of curiosity, where did you see at the beginning that Ra quotes that they are not those of the Love or of the Light ? Just curious,

It's quite literally at the very beginning:

1.1 Questioner: It seems members of the Confederation have a specific purpose. Is this true with you, and if so, what is your purpose?

Ra: I am Ra. We communicate now. We, too, have our place. We are not those of the Love or of the Light. We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized, the complexities are simplified, and the paradoxes have their solution. We are one. That is our nature and our purpose.

We are old upon your planet and have served with varying degrees of success in transmitting the Law of One, of Unity, of Singleness to your peoples. We have walked your earth. We have seen the faces of your peoples. This is not so with many of the entities of the Confederation. We found it was not efficacious. However, we then felt the great responsibility of staying in the capacity of removing the distortions and powers that had been given to the Law of One. We will continue in this until your, shall we say, cycle is appropriately ended. If not this one, then the next. We are not a part of time and, thus, are able to be with you in any of your times.

Does this give you enough information from which to extract our purpose, my brother?

To me the first session is where the material went somewhat off track from Ra's intent. If you take into account that their purpose with us truly lies in sharing the Law of One, then at question 7 in this same session they have asked Don if they have his permission to enunciate this law in more detail and in an inaudible manner they seem to have been denied the ability to do so.

So although a lot in the material resonates with the Love and the Light, I think this type of information being provided is more of a deviation of their original intent. Their purpose really was the Law of One, Unity and Singleness. Everything else I believe simply makes use of the exchange that was opened for that specific purpose at first but could deviate elsewhere by extension also. They did not want to control the exchange afterall, but they also did state their purpose clearly.

I'd love to know how they would have enunciated the Law of One in more details. That description already is my favorite part of the material and the one I believe is the most meaningful, yet what could have followed might've been even better. Oh well.

Oh right ...SO sorry I read it and managed to not see !!!! I am a dork

[Minyatur]

Thankfully I feel like they did broach that later when talking about how it is all rectified and the path that is not is equally valid.

At some point beyond paths there is just unity.

Also 4.20, in regards to healing, does give a deeper explanation of what it means to realize deeply the Law of One.

Healing occurs when a mind/body/spirit complex realizes, deep within itself, the Law of One; that is, that there is no disharmony, no imperfection; that all is complete and whole and perfect

[Spaced]

Thanks so much for the responses everyone, this conversation has really broadened my thinking.

I find free will a fascinating topic and it's very interesting the way that Ra discusses it. I admit it's absolutely possible for people's wills to clash here on Earth, but one thing that interests me is the ideas of the guardians, the council of nine and the quarantine being related to the Law of Free Will. It seems to me that Ra is referring to that situation in most of the discussion of free will in the books. The cases that Ra mentions being done by earthlings seem to involve some level of adeptness, like the evangelists in Diana's quote or sacred fools quote regarding viewing a magical working. Do adepts draw the attention of the guardians? What's the threshold?

I liked Glows posts, the idea free will in terms of a sort of unconscious drive in interesting in connection to the idea of adepthood as Ra mentions magical ability as "the ability to consciously use the so-called unconscious." Is that what raises these "workings" to the level of infringement that Ra was talking about? The idea that Adepts have access to the unconscious and are those able to better know and alter their will and act accordingly rather than being under the veil of confusion?

The other thing I find interesting is the quote steppingfeet posted where Don asks whether it is against the the Law of One to infringe one someone's free will and Ra basically says "well that depends, just try to do good and remember the Law of One." This seems to imply that there are times where infringing on the free will of another is consonant with the Law of One.

This part of the quote which was clipped out also raises an interesting point:

The area or arena called the societal complex is an arena in which there are no particular needs for care for it is the prerogative/honor/duty of those in the particular planetary sphere to act according to its free will for the attempted aid of the social complex.

Does this mean that within one's societal complex there is no need to worry about infringing on the will of others as long as you are trying to do good?

I am once again reminded of Hatonn's story of their graduation to 4D.

I am Hatonn, and I am again with you. We have adjusted our being and we feel that we are more closely aligned with this instrument. At this time, we would like to share with you a story of our past.

At one time, we of Hatonn were a warlike nation in that, although united as one planet, we were divided into many sects that strove to dominate or control the planet. We chose to combat one another in our efforts to achieve this control, however, none were able to dominate and all were weakened by the struggle. Finally a point was reached in which we of Hatonn were destitute. We had destroyed all of the resources that our planet had to offer and were unable to kill one another simply because we no longer possessed the raw materials from which to construct further weaponry. At this point, we had also destroyed our food chain and were near starvation. In many ways we were, at that time, very similar to you as your planet is today, fixed upon oblivion.

We discovered that our survival as a priority superseded all other priorities and that the requirements for survival became very obvious: regard each man or woman as one’s own brother and share with that brother as you would with your wife or husband or child. Our decimation became, in this manner, our strength. In our choice, in our choosing to reduce our planet’s ability to support life, we inadvertently chose a very strenuously spiritual path, that of loving through forced sharing. Perhaps this may not sound very spiritual to those listening to our words, however, then we learned that sharing was more valuable than surviving. We obtained a vibration level that enabled us to both sustain our bodies and at the same time, progress beyond physical needs.

We share this story with you not in pride, obviously, but in encouragement.

The idea of "forced sharing" sound to me like a case of a society infringing on the individual wills of it's members, yet that is what it took to get them to 4D positive

[MrWho]

I find free will a fascinating topic and it's very interesting the way that Ra discusses it. I admit it's absolutely possible for people's wills to clash here on Earth, but one thing that interests me is the ideas of the guardians, the council of nine and the quarantine being related to the Law of Free Will. It seems to me that Ra is referring to that situation in most of the discussion of free will in the books. The cases that Ra mentions being done by earthlings seem to involve some level of adeptness, like the evangelists in Diana's quote or sacred fools quote regarding viewing a magical working. Do adepts draw the attention of the guardians? What's the threshold?

https://www.lawofone.info/s/65#19

Questioner: [chuckles] Thank you. The forgetting process was puzzling me because you said that the fourth-density activated people who were here who had been harvestable did not have the same forgetting problem. Could you tell me why the Wanderer loses his memory?

Ra: I am Ra. The reason is twofold. First, the genetic properties of the connection between the mind/body/spirit complex and the cellular structure of the body is different for third density than for third/fourth density.
Secondly, the free will of third-density entities needs be preserved. Thus Wanderers volunteer for third-density genetic or DNA connections to the mind/body/spirit complex. The forgetting process can be penetrated to the extent of the Wanderer remembering what it is and why it is upon the planetary sphere. However, it would be an infringement if Wanderers penetrated the forgetting so far as to activate the more dense bodies and thus be able to live, shall we say, in a god-like manner. This would not be proper for those who have chosen to serve.
The new fourth-density entities which are becoming able to demonstrate various newer abilities are doing so as a result of the present experience, not as a result of memory. There are always a few exceptions, and we ask your forgiveness for constant barrages of over-generalization.

The guardians maintain quarantine from outside forces. Within the quarantine all things are possible for the disciplined adept. Though not always "proper".

[Sacred Fool]

The idea of "forced sharing" sound to me like a case of a society infringing on the individual wills of it's members, yet that is what it took to get them to 4D positive

The way I read the story, once they realized that bellicosity led them to utter deprivation, there was some degree of consensus that sharing in order to survive was the best way forward.  They don't explain the "forced" aspect, but it seems there was a general consensus that a system of mutual constructive collaboration beats mutual annihilation.  Our own planet, alas, has not yet realized this simple fact.  Funny, isn't it? 

Okay, not so funny.  Yet, here we stand with either outcome before us.

Each of us finding within us the truth of which outcome we would work towards and aligning our energies accordingly is a potential blessing for the planet.  For what it may be worth, I would argue that chatter about free will infringement in the face of such high stakes is a less valuable way of expending energy.  But I'm sure others see this differently.

   

[flofrog]

The chatter about free will may be less valuable but Sacred Fool it also brought us your post which is in fact pretty cool : indeed some degree of a general consensus for a mutual constructive collaboration is really what is needed now... I have a feeling that we all, inward, desperately want this, so it will happen.

[confusedseeker]

The chatter about free will may be less valuable but Sacred Fool it also brought us your post which is in fact pretty cool : indeed some degree of a general consensus  for a mutual constructive collaboration is really what is needed now...    I have a feeling that we all, inward, desperately want this, so it will happen.

Hmm. Imo we are now divided than ever.

[Ohr Ein Sof]

The chatter about free will may be less valuable but Sacred Fool it also brought us your post which is in fact pretty cool : indeed some degree of a general consensus  for a mutual constructive collaboration is really what is needed now...    I have a feeling that we all, inward, desperately want this, so it will happen.

Hmm. Imo we are now divided than ever.

That we may be, but consider how you or I or another could balance this separation. Not from with-out but from within. It begins and ends with the One; meaning You; or I. We reconcile separation with union. We can only do this Work from within.
This may seem like a lot of abstract mumbo jumbo; but, if we truly want peace, it begins and ends with the Self. If we are to assume that we live in an illusion of separates. Right?

[Sacred Fool]

I have a feeling that we all, inward, desperately want this, so it will happen.

While that may be so, I would guess that for most of us, such a desire is not a clearly held thing, but is pretty well smothered by more immediate mundane concerns.  Ergo, it's maybe not so likely to occur any time soon.  Clarity of purpose is not commonly seen these days, except when comes to amassing wealth or, alternatively, publishing L/L Research materials.  We'll see.
  

[Glow]

Truly forgiveness makes no sense at unity perspective. There is no other, we are one playing different parts behind a veil to experience what couldn't be experienced otherwise. So it is not really forgiveness but understanding it was the path.

Each of our paths shaped us and bring us to each decision and how it is decided, but it was the path that led there, blame the path but not the one, or individuation of the one. We just can't see that here.

Law of confusion. I actually wonder how far that law is carried as at least in early 4D they talk about waring between STS and STO so they still must be pretty confused.

edited for clarity to add;
I am saying no one is to blame, hence why forgiveness stops karma, karma calls us till we learn, once we learn, we "forgive" because we understand in some form and then the lesson is done on that.

[Patrick]

Truly forgiveness makes no sense at unity perspective. There is no other, we are one playing different parts behind a veil to experience what couldn't be experienced otherwise. So it is not really forgiveness but understanding it was the path.

Forgiveness could very well be a harvest of a past Octave.  Or even of this current Octave, since Polarity was invented during the course of this Octave.  Is there a need for forgiveness without the veil of 3d space/time ?  If I remember, we cannot effect forgiveness while in time/space.  We have to be in space/time to affect Karma.

[Minyatur]

I am also wondering what role "forgiveness" has to play in a reality where no free-will infringement is possible. 

To me the idea that free will infringement is not possible is what facilitates forgiveness, either of self or an other-self. In a way it opens the door to the perception of oneness and that we are all in this together. Growing, discovering ourselves, just as making mistakes and learning from them. A lot of our behaviors are rooted in our bodies and instincts, and it takes time to reflect on them and decide on our desired direction of a specie. Wanting to label anything as wrong, or an infringement, ultimately creates separation within perception and in turn within our emotions. If this becomes an absolute within one's perception, then one may never allow itself to forgive.

I believe the foundation of the STO path lies in acceptance because it is the most direct manner in which things will grow. We naturally move upward within the spectrum of our emotions, naturally feeling guilt, shame and so on without requiring mindfulness to experience them. Every time there is a lack of acceptance, it creates a tension within the elevation of our consciousness and in its natural growth. Everywhere you have felt guilt, you need also to realize that your behaviors were normal as part of your development and that turning to better ways is facilitated by forgiving yourself. This does not deny either that in our growth we can want to expand the awareness of others, just that this might be more efficient without any judgment.

So to me the idea that there is no infringement as 3D beings is really about that we are all in this together at the same level, none above nor below another. We are to large extent merely the continuity of our environment in its evolution, with the honor/duty of evolving further as part of it. Still, the term can be purposeful. To respect others' free will, or be consonant with the Law of One, is to be non-coercive in your dealings with others as to respect the flourishing of the infinite intelligence at play within the uniqueness of their being. But this is a high state of balance that is not in any way natural to us and instead can only be learnt. Before learning to be in such a balanced state, we are active actors within the balancing of our environment. This is more natural the less we are entangled with something, no one really seems to judge how different every animal is within nature, because it feels natural to us to see these differences. But in our dealings with other humans, we tend to process them as ourselves and this lesser recognition of their individuality creates in turn expectations upon their behaviors. It is interesting to note that within the Ra cosmology, multiple human souls in fact come from lineages of 2D entities that have had extremely different past experiences. Some may very well feel like sharks among humans, well because they actually used to be sharks, who knows.

This quote came to mind:

The second mental discipline is acceptance of the completeness within your consciousness. It is not for a being of polarity in the physical consciousness to pick and choose among attributes, thus building the roles that cause blockages and confusions in the already-distorted mind complex. Each acceptance smoothes part of the many distortions that the faculty you call judgment engenders.

So to conclude, I believe to recognize the paradox of free will infringement is useful from a spiritual and cosmological perspective to realize unity. In personal and social growth, it is a component of what we will feel as part of our experience of duality that cannot be avoided.

[Glow]

Truly forgiveness makes no sense at unity perspective. There is no other, we are one playing different parts behind a veil to experience what couldn't be experienced otherwise. So it is not really forgiveness but understanding it was the path.

Forgiveness could very well be a harvest of a past Octave.  Or even of this current Octave, since Polarity was invented during the course of this Octave.  Is there a need for forgiveness without the veil of 3d space/time ?  If I remember, we cannot effect forgiveness while in time/space.  We have to be in space/time to affect Karma.

I think you touched on it. The veil. Without it like the poker game Ra speaks of we would see each otherselves' cards, understand exactly why the cards were played as they were.

So forgiveness would be impossible, as without the veil there is no blame for how the cards are played.

[Patrick]

What I find interesting is that Karma existed before the veil.  For example, positive 4d is about 98% harmonious.  So that is about 1 out of every 50 thoughts that are not harmonious.

[Glow]

My perception of karma is just lessons unlearned, or things we are still pulled to so we have something to learn from. I guess that is the reason for life being called a school or test.

It makes sense that even without the veil we would have these things we seek to learn/experience. Maybe there is just a lack of blame, just the distortions.
Then we go to school to take on the karma, forgive it behind the veil and graduate to new material.

Law of confusion of course.

[Sacred Fool]

 
If we can swing back towards the intended theme of this thread, I would add a sentiment often expressed by Confederation sources which has some bearing on this.  Namely, each of us is an embodiment of the Creatrix.  Each of us is on an unique path to discover Spirit and bring forth some sui generis sense of self which may be discovered therein.  The infringement which Confederation sources try to avoid, it seems to moi, is interference in the individual's discovery process. Thus, they discuss personal areas where they feel the individual is already somewhat knowledgeable and avoid personal areas where they feel the individual is uncertain.  The same goes for humanity in general.

The violation would be my contaminating your experience of your forays into spiritual experience and learning by telling you what you should find or devaluing your work in this area or something of that sort.

As I see it, physical, emotional or mental infringement is problematic, but the real concern is infringement of an entity's spiritual sprouting and flowering.
 
   

[Patrick]

Please note that I have split the discussion on freewill and the monetary system to this new thread:

https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthre...?tid=18926

[Diana]

As I see it, physical, emotional or mental infringement is problematic, but the real concern is infringement of an entity's spiritual sprouting and flowering.
 
   

Let's say that spiritual development is the cake. Physical development is the flour; emotional development is the sugar; and mental development is the butter. The flour, sugar, and butter get transformed when you bake them together, and the result is the cake—spiritual development. 

I can't see separation of these things. To me, it's all important and as we all are presumably part of the OIC, then all aspects of self are part of the whole self which is part of the OIC.

What is problematic to me is the idea that "we are spirit not the body" mindset. We are both. We are mind, body, spirit, as is reflected in the Archetypes. The body is finite and short-lived, but no less important in this reality than the other aspects of self. The attitude toward the body and how it is cared for cannot be brushed aside; I think it matters to spiritual development. The bodies of all entities in this reality matter, and how we interact with them. If we don't honor our bodies, minds, and emotions, there are consequences which must be dealt with. They may be seen as fleeting in the great scheme of things, but the attitude one has for even the small things is part of the whole consciousness and evolution of spirit.

I do get what you are saying SF. I can imagine being a discarnate entity, looking down at 3D, seeing us all running around here in the maelstrom. While the bigger picture is out there, infinite and awesome. And the path wihich might be compared to a lightyear for the sake of a thought experiment, of which we can see only a few feet, would loom so much more important, and the few feet we see be such a tiny part of it. But it matters a lot what we do here:

76.16 ▶ Questioner: Third density, then, it appears, is, compared to the rest of the densities, all of them, nothing but a uniquely short period of what we consider to be time and is then for the purpose of this choice.

Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is precisely correct. The prelude to choice must encompass the laying of the foundation, the establishment of the illusion and the viability of that which can be made spiritually viable. The remainder of the densities is continuous refining of the choice. This also is greatly lengthened, as you would use the term. The choice is, as you put it, the work of a moment but is the axis upon which the creation turns.

[Sacred Fool]

As I see it, physical, emotional or mental infringement is problematic, but the real concern is infringement of an entity's spiritual sprouting and flowering.

I do get what you are saying SF. I can imagine being a discarnate entity, looking down at 3D, seeing us all running around here in the maelstrom. While the bigger picture is out there, infinite and awesome. And the path wihich might be compared to a lightyear for the sake of a thought experiment, of which we can see only a few feet, would loom so much more important, and the few feet we see be such a tiny part of it. But it matters a lot what we do here:

1.  I never said 3D life is unimportant.  (If I felt otherwise, I would move on from here now.)  But I would say that 3D life absent spiritual consciousness, life only immersed in and interactive with the physical, emotional, mental levels of consciousness, is life lived in an unfortunately limited fashion.

2.  In order to really make the Choice, I would argue, one must needs have a relationship of some sort--whatever sort--with spirit, and this is very difficult to do if you happen to live in a culture which only values the physical, emotional and mental aspects of consciousness.  This makes spiritual infringement especially corrosive, compared to the other levels of infringement.

3.  Why is 3D life important?  Because the spiritual work we do here can have an effect upon our soul stream and further our work in offering and honestation to the Creatrix.  This is why I would aver that spiritual infringement is of a higher concern than infringement at lower levels.

  

[flofrog]

As I see it, physical, emotional or mental infringement is problematic, but the real concern is infringement of an entity's spiritual sprouting and flowering.

I do get what you are saying SF. I can imagine being a discarnate entity, looking down at 3D, seeing us all running around here in the maelstrom. While the bigger picture is out there, infinite and awesome. And the path wihich might be compared to a lightyear for the sake of a thought experiment, of which we can see only a few feet, would loom so much more important, and the few feet we see be such a tiny part of it. But it matters a lot what we do here:

1.  I never said 3D life is unimportant.  (If I felt otherwise, I would move on from here now.)  But I would say that 3D life absent spiritual consciousness, life only immersed in and interactive with the physical, emotional, mental levels of consciousness, is life lived in an unfortunately limited fashion.

2.  In order to really make the Choice, I would argue, one must needs have a relationship of some sort--whatever sort--with spirit, and this is very difficult to do if you happen to live in a culture which only values the physical, emotional and mental aspects of consciousness.  This makes spiritual infringement especially corrosive, compared to the other levels of infringement.

3.  Why is 3D life important?  Because the spiritual work we do here can have an effect upon our soul stream and further our work in offering and honestation to the Creatrix.  This is why I would aver that spiritual infringement is of a higher concern than infringement at lower levels.

  

Sacred Fool, I have a question for you. Considering spiritual infringement on an entity having been specially corrosive, with whatever consequence, do you feel that once back in time/space, healing may take place and somewhat change the view on choice, for future incarnations ?

I am asking this, because I have always wondered, after reading Michael Newton’s books, how this works in time/ space where ‘healing’ seems to take place after some heavy experience in 3D incarnations.

[Sacred Fool]

Sacred Fool, I have a question for you. Considering spiritual infringement on an entity having been specially corrosive, with whatever consequence, do you feel that once back in  time/space, healing may take place and somewhat change the view on choice, for future incarnations ?

I am asking  this, because I have always wondered, after reading Michael Newton’s books, how this works in time/ space where ‘healing’ seems to take place after some heavy experience in 3D incarnations.

Of course, I have no more information about after-life policies and procedures than you do, but this does bring something to mind which is pertinent to the discussion immediately above.

There's a water colour picture book by an Indo-German guru-type who goes by Mother Meera called Bringing Down the Paramatman Light which is her chronicling of the initial after-life experiences of her former patron, Mr. Reddy.  At first, Mr. Reddy is uncertain and distracted, and this is represented as what looks like a Miro painting with stuff moving everywhere in every direction.  After a time he composes himself and and begins to move from a worldly orientation towards an orientation which is more in line with existence on a spiritual plane, and this is represented by all that random stuff (emotional worries, thought loops and the like) taking the organized form of a smallish tree.  At that point he was ready to begin the healing process.

Arcing back to Diana's concerns that the spiritual should not be elevated to the point of losing track of the value of the more obvious levels of consciousness, what i take from the above is that, while real life is chaotic and unpredictable, if one has is rooted and growing in spirit, this may create for one an underlying organic form which informs the waking life, even if that organic form is not visible to the waking eye.  In other words, if one has a strong spiritual commitment (a/k/a, perhaps, polarity), this creates an underlying flow of an energy structure which helps shape how daily life unfolds in the proverbial real world.

Back to your question now, it strikes me that trauma is a blockage of energy and is treated by alleviating the congestion, generally speaking, with love.  But infringement upon one's path spiritual self-discovery is more of a distortion in the course of developement and thus is much more difficult to "treat" or compensate for.

   

[flofrog]

Yes I feel this very much like that. Thank you Sacred Fool.

[Dtris]

I actually have a certain dislike for calling people 'stupid' or 'idiot' or any other sort of attack upon intelligence, because it first of all is fallacious in light of the philosophy of evolution of consciousness to my eyes, and also because these phrases are both lazy and insulting. It is an essentially meaningless expression that can be interpreted in no way but a sense of superiority.

Second, those types of words and phrases have been used towards other humans especially to batter women, people with disabilities, neuro-atypical individuals, transgendered, different sexuality, etc, etc, etc and otherwise outcasts.

So, maybe I'm being generous, or maybe I just see them as human and not a reduction to abstraction. Who's to say?  

Well, so far as free will goes (to try to stay on topic a little bit), I'd say you're perfectly within your rights to support people who do "foolish" things more than those who call them as they see them. 
   
For my part, well, I guess we're all trying to learn our lessons as best we can, given what we have to work with.  Needless to say, it's abundantly challenging for every one of us.

   

Humans are absolutely silly and do all sorts of ridiculous things, don't get me wrong, and not sure where you've gotten that I've 'supported' anything, more just analyzing. My mind just doesn't work in a way that will reduce things to single word ultimatum identities because it doesn't make any sense to me.

It sort of ties in to free will for me, I do my best not to 'define' people or to make any decisions about other people's identity in any sort of concrete way. So I shy away from any sort of vague wording which does more to muddle than give any clarity in to the human experience. Meanwhile using way too many words to express the simplest of concepts. Naturally, I have things to balance too.

That said, I have no expectation on the minds of others and each is free to choose the words that they feel appropriately expresses themselves. Thus, I've given my preference, but you are free to do what you will with yours.

Assuredly, the "vivid" catalyst offered in this density is the soil we've all buried ourselves in. All the more golden those moments of grasping our own will with great freedom.

I agree with you, I don't like to use those words to describe people. However a person's ACTIONS can certainly be stupid and idiotic, even from otherwise intelligent individuals. I have no problem describing the actions with those words

[unity100]

To start with, free will is not 'i can do whatever i want without any consequences and everyone has to respect it', like the belief of a certain segment of people in spiritualist circles. Which mirrors the 'freedom' concept that is found mainly in US these days. In which people believe they are entitled to do anything they want even if it harms the society and other people, and other people should not take any action towards the person regardless of what.

If a group of people shuts out someone because s/he keeps abusing/harassing the members of the group in a conscious manner, thats not infringement on that person's free will. The other person consciously chose to engage in that act, based own its free will. That does not protect him/her from the consequences and it does not oblige the rest of the social group to keep tolerating it at great detriment to the group.

Similarly, if societies start requiring vaccine passports to make sure people who carry deadly diseases do not enter them, that will not be an infringement on the free will of those who chose to put other people into risk. These people chose to be a risk factor for others themselves, and they can be with people who choose like themselves. Its a consequence of their action and they are obliged with the results of that action as well as being able to enjoy the free will of choosing that action.

Same goes with all kinds of other things ranging from not being an a****** when you are watching movies in a theater to not screwing up your neighborhood while living in it.

...

That taken out of the way, lets dive into advanced spiritual nature of the concept:

Free will infringement in Ra material as described in the material itself seems to take the form of influencing an entity's or society's choices and thinking by doing things, revealing information or manifesting self in an unsolicited manner, preventing the entity from making a choice by itself while under effects of the veil.

Ie, Ra revealing information without being specifically asked or related to the topic. In cases in which the mind of the questioner and/or others were already made up by their own accord before the information was revealed and the information was not going to affect anything, this does not seem to pose a problem for free will. This is the case mostly in personal situations.

In cases in which the revealed information could affect the choices and behavior of other people, readers, in a major way without those entities having made any choice in regard to something that is not related to Ra material, it seems to be an infringement even if the question was specifically asked.

However within the context of Ra material and the general spiritual concepts which the specific call involves (apparently people of advanced mental distortions and scientific leanings), whatever Ra reveals does not seem to constitute any infringement of free will.

Simply because this material is in that direction, the questioner is specifically asking information in that direction, and the entities who choose to read this information are specifically choosing to read it.

Even further, there can be little to no free will infringement in a forum like this, where an entity who potentially read Ra material multiple times came here after consciously searching for forums like this, finding this forum and these people who discuss Ra material, and then choosing to read those. Leave aside choosing to participate. Its a kind of triple-down choice making.

What's further, these days people just 'believe' things. Basically whatever they want. So, whatever someone says in such a venue, someone else can just choose to believe whatever, basically negating any potential infringement.

Things get a bit more complicated after this point:

Currently early 4d environment is forming, green ray has been in action since 1934. Or was it 1937.

Green ray reveals the true nature of things, which means reduction of the veil. Which means that things seeping into the conscious, along with all kinds of influences and energies and information.

So it makes defining any infringement even more difficult. People may get influenced without you taking an action, solely through the effects of green ray, and totally vice versa, not noticing anything when they should have.

Then there is the harvest. Which seems to have happened in 2011 per the material, therefore making polarity choice somewhat moot for a sizable number of people who already got harvested. Then there are people who are yet 3d and will repeat it somewhere. Number is unknown but probably the majority, considering how Ra's very successful harvest was something like 5% of the population.

In a planet where harvest is already done, the harvested entities or entities who were already 4d before incarnating on this planet to live here will need to live their normal density and do their normal density stuff. So entities who have not chosen a polarity yet, will be living along with these entities. This may influence those unpolarized entities, but then again there is no curbing the 4d entities who are living their own 4d normally.

Then there are adepts, higher density wanderers who will be an additional factor in all of these. This may not be their home density or home planet, but they have been in 4d and them not being 4d while being in this early 4d planet would not be so fitting. They will readily (and naturally) react to green ray and will act along with it. Leave aside any higher frequency that they are receiving. So they will be a factor too.

...

So basically we are in a hodgepodge of situation.

The best option seems to be honest, clear of one's own deep leanings and polarization and act accordingly while following one's path honestly, openly and to the best one can.

[Dtris]

We have independent will. Individualized creator has a path, no one is “free” though.

Research on this shows the subconscious makes decisions even though the conscious mind thinks it does.

It’s like input in, all collected data leads to choice A or B

Ra adding information not requested changes the subconscious awareness  therefore would change the data, and therefore the individuated consciousness’s path. Infringing on that free/independent will by altering their path with info not sought.

This is yet another reason forgiveness or judgment makes no sense.
Until a consiousness is given new data it can only do as it has been programmed via data.

To me that sounds like only recognizing humans as mind/body complexes rather than mind/body/spirit complexes. Also, it is to note that this is the density in which self-awareness grows and that this is veiled to an extent, so I don't think the power of individuated free will is at its strongest within our experience and instead develops through time. The dynamic that you speak of is because of the veil between the conscious and subconscious mind, which causes both of them to be largely unaware of the other in how we develop through them. Prior to the veil, I believe there was no such dynamics and the part of ourselves we consider conscious, and relate more strongly to, simply had more resources to itself that are now subconscious.

Free will is the most primal component of our experience from which everything stems. Then there are layers and layers of distortions that were generated by free will in weighting it down and constricting it into a more finite and complex experience. So to a large extent on the surface you may seem to merely be your environment, but more fundamentally beneath it all you are free will and the nature of it evolves through the densities.

The fallacy of forgiveness and judgment, which I agree with in terms of perceiving separation, is more rooted in that everything has the One as its source and so reflect what this One is. The circumstances are then holographic and the constant that is reflected is free will.

To go back to the thread, I do not believe it is possible in any way to infringe upon the first distortion of free will. Merely its extension generated by the Logos through the usage of the veil.

Awesome thoughts. I guess I should clarify, 1 I see that which we come in with as part of the "data" of the subconscious. So biases, distortions, energy leanings, ways of perception in born. To most that never awaken to higher energy centers or spiritual communion this is about as much mind/body/spirit as they get access to. So still this fits my understanding of lack of true "free will".

Where this changes is like you mentioned when one thins the veil, or starts to awaken and if they do the work, take the reins. This is not really of 3D though this is starting the work of higher energies than green ray activation. To choose catalyst as Ra says, in doing that one chooses what new catalytic experience to seek to change subconscious bias.
Same with the balancing exercises, have a bias toward sorrow or hatred, or anger, or whatever - choose new catalyst to balance it or work in consciousness on the balancing exercises to be less at the whims of the subconscious but instead drive and exert some form of actual FREE independent will.

There are also other ways of seeking to reprogram the subconscious if you utilize certain keys but still it is just adding a step to Ra's instructions on balancing and choosing catalyst. Once the subconscious is made more conscious the spirit can really shine through and though that is not the work of 3D yes more and more one would be able to be FREE.

I hope that wasn't to annoying to read, if you did. It is one of the adventures I have been taking the last year and a half in a more focused way. I wish all selves this freedom from the tangle of subconscious programing. To get to sort the tangle out, (blue ray?) and then choose the direction to take with the knew clearer understanding of self feels pretty wonderful.

Thanks for the conversation, it's ok if it doesn't vibe, it's just my perception, law of confusion of course, it was just kind of cool getting to explore it with another with Ra back ground. Your thoughts were ones I considered but ultimately found still fit the understanding. Add cosmic energies at birth and through ones life and it gets to be pretty beautiful like a tapestry.

In regards to the subconscious making a decision before the conscious, I don't think that has anything to do with the veil. The studies which have looked at that afaik are comparing brain activation to decision making. The problem is that most people are only aware of their conscious thought on the level of inner monologue and are not aware of their conscious thought which occurs without language. That level can be accessed thru meditation and if you can manage to allow the non language based thought to occur without verbalizing it internally you can actually think much faster. This is also one of the keys to speed reading.

Of course the actual subconscious is used in decision making as well and there are also certain actions which bypass the conscious mind completely, so it is not a simple system for any individual no matter how advanced in 3D.

[Dtris]

Finally caught up. Great thread.

Infringement on Free Will is a term which first means the terms need defined. There has been attempts to define infringement, but not free will.

15.21 Questioner: Well, in yesterday’s material you stated “we offer the Law of One, the solving of paradoxes.” You also mentioned earlier that the first paradox, or the first distortion I meant, was the distortion of free will. Could you tell me if there’s a sequence? Is there a first, second, third, fourth distortion of the Law of One?

Ra: I am Ra. Only up to a very short point. After this point, the many-ness of distortions are equal one to another. The first distortion, free will, finds focus. This is the second distortion known to you as Logos, the Creative Principle or Love. This intelligent energy thus creates a distortion known as Light. From these three distortions come many, many hierarchies of distortions, each having its own paradoxes to be synthesized, no one being more important than another.

While most discussions here focus on Love and Light, it is interesting that Free Will is the first Distortion of the Law of One. What this implies is that without Free Will, the further distortions would not be possible as we understand them. The Focus of the Free Will is Love. This means that Love is ultimately about Free Will.

19.12 Questioner: This seems to be a carefully planned or engineered stage of development. Can you tell me anything of the origin of this plan for the development?

Ra: I am Ra. We go back to previous information. Consider and remember the discussion of the Logos. With the primal distortion of free will, each galaxy developed its own Logos. This Logos has complete free will in determining the paths of intelligent energy which promote the lessons of each of the densities given the conditions of the planetary spheres and the sun bodies.

63.30 Questioner: I understand that the Logos did not plan for the heating effect that occurs in our third-density transition into fourth. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct except for the condition of free will which is, of course, planned by the Logos as It, Itself, is a creature of free will. In this climate an infinity of events or conditions may occur. They cannot be said to be planned by the Logos but can be said to have been freely allowed.

Here we can see the crux of what I believe is Free Will, which is the determination of the self. Each Logos basically sets the parameters by which all entities incarnating within it's realm will be subject to. What is fascinating is that while the Sun is a Sub-Logos of the Galactic Logos, and each Planet is a Sub-Sub-Logos, the planets and stars are not entities which evolve thru the octave yet they exist in all densities. This means that Free Will is a concept which is superior (in a literal sense) to the densities.

Each Logos, including us individual humans, has complete determination of the self, within the parameters set by the superior (again literal) Logoi.

72.8 Questioner: The negatively oriented entities who contact us and others on this planet are limited by the first distortion. They have obviously been limited by the banishing ritual just performed. Could you describe, with respect to free will, how they limit themselves in order to work within the first distortion and how the banishing ritual itself works?

Ra: I am Ra. This query has several portions. Firstly, those of negative polarity do not operate with respect to free will unless it is necessary. They call themselves and will infringe whenever they feel it possible.

Secondly, they are limited by the great Law of Confusion in that, for the most part, they are unable to enter this planetary sphere of influence and are able to use the windows of time/space distortion only insofar as there is some calling to balance the positive calling. Once they are here, their desire is conquest.

Thirdly, in the instance of this instrument’s being removed permanently from this space/time, it is necessary to allow the instrument to leave its yellow-ray physical complex of its free will. Thus trickery has been attempted.

The use of the light forms being generated is such as to cause such entities to discover a wall through which they can not pass. This is due to the energy complexes of the light beings and aspects of the One Infinite Creator invoked and evoked in the building of the wall of light.

We can see here that Free Will can be infringed by any entity on the STS path. Since that path exists in Third Density. It is only natural for the infringement on Free Will to exist between third density entities. If each Individual can have it's free will infringed, and also has complete determination of the self, how can both be true? The answer is given by Ra.

11.18 Questioner: Then we have crusaders from Orion coming to this planet for mind control purposes. How do they do this?

Ra: As all, they follow the Law of One observing free will. Contact is made with those who call. Those then upon the planetary sphere act much as do you to disseminate the attitudes and philosophy of their particular understanding of the Law of One which is service to self. These become the elite. Through these, the attempt begins to create a condition whereby the remainder of the planetary entities are enslaved by their own free will.

An act of free will is thus needed to be able to infringe upon the free will of another. Once given away the free will is continuously infringed until a new act of free will restores self determination.

This means that there is layers to Free Will. A person can CHOOSE to be enslaved, the subsequent choices are then no longer their own and they have their free will infringed by the slave owner/controller. A person may make a pre-incarnative choice which subsequently limits their choices in life, including being the subject to free will infringements.

The danger is in thinking that the inferior (literal) Free Will Choices are therefore not just as important as the greater ones. The view that all choices are ultimately made of free will, including infringements might be ultimately true, but that does not invalidate the smaller Free Will Choices as being those of Free Will.

If it is believed that it is impossible to infringe on the Free Will of a living human thru mundane means, that gives license to do all sorts of acts in the name of good. Why not beat your children if they misbehave then, or force them to sit on buckwheat until it grows from their knees? (It actually happened, don't search for it if you are squeamish).

The ability of each individual and each society to determine their own path in all aspects, not just spiritually, is ultimately what free will is about. The STS path is quite literally about infringing on the free will of others. The more a STS individual can do so the more they polarize. If Free Will infringement was not possible in 3D then STS polarization would not be possible either. The STO path is IMO best summed up from a quote from Neal Donald Walsh, "Love Allows".

[Diana]

Arcing back to Diana's concerns that the spiritual should not be elevated to the point of losing track of the value of the more obvious levels of consciousness, what i take from the above is that, while real life is chaotic and unpredictable, if one has is rooted and growing in spirit, this may create for one an underlying organic form which informs the waking life, even if that organic form is not visible to the waking eye.  In other words, if one has a strong spiritual commitment (a/k/a, perhaps, polarity), this creates an underlying flow of an energy structure which helps shape how daily life unfolds in the proverbial real world.

Beautifully put.

I agree with this, and have, in various ways tried to articulate this in other threads. I may have had different ways of putting "spiritual commitment"; but also, I think that one is where one is at at any given moment, so the commitment may not always be the largest determining factor if there are other conflicting imbalances to work out such as subconscious ingrained beliefs, though intention carries its own powerful energy.

[Aion]

Just to poke a random thought in to this thread that popped up as I was reading.

If Free Will is the First Distortion and the first movement away from "true unity", is that a suggestion that Infinity in potential is 'not free'?

Also, this is a good quote for this discussion.

67.10 Questioner: We have a paradoxical situation in that in order to fully serve the Creator at this level in the polarized section, you might say, of the creation, we have requests from those whom we serve in this density for Ra’s information. In fact, I just had one by telephone a short while ago. However, we have requests from, in this particular case, another density not to disseminate this information. We have the Creator, in fact, requesting two seemingly opposite activities of this group.

It would be very helpful if we could reach a condition of full, total, complete service in such a way that we were, by every thought and activity, serving the Creator to the very best of our ability. Is it possible for you to solve, or possible for the fifth-density entity who offers its service to solve, the paradox that I have observed?

Ra: I am Ra. It is quite possible.

67.11 Questioner: Then how could we solve this paradox?

Ra: I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that you have no ability not to serve the Creator since all is the Creator. In your individual growth patterns appear the basic third-density choice. Further, there are overlaid memories of the positive polarizations of your home density. Thus your particular orientation is strongly polarized towards service to others and has attained wisdom as well as compassion.

You do not have merely two opposite requests for service. You will find an infinite array of contradictory requests for information, or lack of information from this source if you listen carefully to those whose voices you may hear. This is all one voice to which you resonate upon a certain frequency. This frequency determines your choice of service to the One Creator. As it happens this group’s vibratory patterns and those of Ra are compatible and enable us to speak through this instrument with your support. This is a function of free will.

A portion, seemingly, of the Creator rejoices at your choice to question us regarding the evolution of spirit. A seemingly separate portion would wish for multitudinous answers to a great range of queries of a specific nature. Another seemingly separate group of your peoples would wish this correspondence through this instrument to cease, feeling it to be of a negative nature. Upon the many other planes of existence there are those whose every fiber rejoices at your service and those, such as the entity of whom you have been speaking, which wish only to terminate the life upon the third-density plane of this instrument. All are the Creator. There is one vast panoply of biases and distortions, colors and hues, in an unending pattern.

In the case of those with whom you, as entities and as a group, are not in resonance, you wish them love, light, peace, joy, and bid them well. No more than this can you do, for your portion of the Creator is as it is, and your experience and offering of experience, to be valuable, needs be more and more a perfect representation of who you truly are.

Could you, then, serve a negative entity by offering the instrument’s life? It is unlikely that you would find this a true service.

Thus you may see, in many cases, the loving balance being achieved: the love being offered, light being sent, and the service of the service-to-self oriented entity gratefully acknowledged while being rejected as not being useful in your journey at this time. Thus you serve One Creator without paradox.