Why I am not a vegan

[Matt1]

Its interesting to note that Ra suggests that we experience and accept all desires rather than suppress them. If one has an enjoyment of eating meat and suppresses this desire in order to be of greater service to others , it could in turn have a trait of subtle martyrdom. However in turn you could also suggest that the harming of animals in order to forfill the desires of the self is also an negative action. Base on this action i can only assume that we will never have a direct answer to the issue while in physical incarnation, only the work of bias and faith of what we believe to be the just course of action. Both sides of the argument have equal merit in different points. I tend to go for the middle ground of being a vegetarian thus still using animal by-products but not eating any meats or fish. Although not prefect or free from suffering it seems to hold some what of a balance between the two view point. A balance of compassion and wisdom.

[Diana]

Okay everyone, I give up trying to make myself understood. And for those omnivores who think they understand me, I feel that for the most part that understanding is very limited in nature. 

Whoever thinks it's okay to participate in the perpetuation of animal suffering, for whatever reason and whatever end goal, it is your choice and I do honor free will.

I feel I have gone above and beyond to understand everyone's ideas and viewpoints. In this I am very grateful, as it has stretched my understanding and efforts to communicate clearly. I can't say the same for most who post here in favor of consuming meat/dairy. In fact, I really don't want to parry the blows anymore, such as vegans being extremists.

I will leave you with the many many posts I have made in the many threads on this subject. I have definitely widened my perspective (and I would like to state here that I always understood there are bigger pictures and higher perspectives), but my basic views have not changed for me. This is not because "people don't really change" or that I am incapable of changing my perspectives and opinions. On the contrary, I am open to evolving as I am basically of a scientific bent, and all scientists, and historians, know that new information changes ideas. 

Au revoir, at least on this subject. 

[Minyatur]

What is it that you feel being misunderstood about?

[Nicholas]

Whoever thinks it's okay to participate in the perpetuation of animal suffering, for whatever reason and whatever end goal, it is your choice and I do honor free will.

What if a human defended their right to participate in this suffering process because in actuality, they are an incognizant part of it? What if it was perceived more as a necessity, rather than a free will choice (as you perceive it to be), in an emotional sense rather than a physical, or ideological one? What if the reason for such voluminous efforts into these threads (and other related threads) is really the manifestation of our inability to communicate to, and understand ourselves? And instead we attempt to understand ourselves through proxy?

More to the point, why do we feel compelled to return to threads that we feel exhausted by? Why do we feel burnt out by them?

Indeed (and I do not mean anything by this personally), why do we have to return to this juncture at all?

[Monica]

OK you win. I surrender.

Our Vegan Diet Almost Killed Us – No, Really

[Night Owl]

Such deep level of sarcasm. Much suffering I sense here excluding the suffering of animals.

[Nicholas]

Such deep level of sarcasm. Much suffering I sense here excluding the suffering of animals.

You have also sensed it. The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become vegan? I think the healing of an incarnation is too easily brushed aside, and too easily not brought into consideration during the discussion of such personal matters, such as this one. 

[Night Owl]

If you take reality for what it is I'd say even with the best intents people have to focus their energy somewhere. Some focus on animals, some focus on themselves and some focus on others. There is so many area of life that needs love. What pains me is the lack of compassion every side has for each other. One have yet to realize that each has his karmic wheel spining. Some have too much to deal with themselves to deal with animals. And some have too much to deal with animals to deal with themselves. I don't think people who eat meat are not conscious of the suffering they cause. They just like to put back the lack of compassion of vegan people back in their face just like vegan people like to do with meat eaters. If both sides focus on healing themselves instead of healing others who do not seek it themselves there would be much more understanding. The vegan/meat eaters thread always seem like the most delusional STO work possible. Both sides are just fighting themselves.

[Nicholas]

 Some have too much to deal with themselves to deal with animals. And some have too much to deal with animals to deal with themselves.

That's a very good way to frame the debate as a whole. It seems totally nonsensical to empathise with someone who is clearly contributing towards harm, yet that seems to be the key to understanding.

[isis]

The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become vegan?

Here's some possible reasons I could think of:

1: they enjoy the taste & texture of meat/dairy.

2: they're with a SO that really doesn't want to make the change & so consequently it'd be too much trouble for just them to do it.

3: they don't believe they're actually contributing to the problem. In other words, they may feel like their "vote" really won't count. When there's a large amount of voters it really is hard to feel like your vote counts. You can easily imagine the outcome of an election w/o your vote & more often than not it's irrefutable that your vote actually did do nothing bc 1 side never wins by 1 vote. (Sure if everyone thought that & they didn't vote then that'd be a problem but that's never the case.)

4: they think things will change for the better, & at the same speed, whether or not they take action to help make it happen.

5: they feel we shouldn't all have to go vegan to make the killing stop. They wonder: why does that have to be the only way, why can't the murderers of animals just stop killing & start waiting for the animals to die of old age or other natural causes?

6: they want to fit in with their friends & family & etc.

7: they feel like eating the animal is causing some kind of bonding with the eternal soul of the animal.

8: they feel like the animal chose to incarnate & suffer for the sole purpose of getting eaten by them since all is well & meant to be.

9: they find meat/dairy eating to be more convenient.

10: they're convinced their body needs it since it's always had it. they think they'll lose too much weight w/o it or get sick & etc.

11: they find meat/dairy to be grounding.

12: they give zero fcks.

[Night Owl]

The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become vegan?

Here's some possible reasons I could think of:

1: they enjoy the taste & texture of meat/dairy.

2: they're with a SO that really doesn't want to make the change & so consequently it'd be too much trouble for just them to do it.

3: they don't believe they're actually contributing to the problem. In other words, they may feel like their "vote" really won't count. When there's a large amount of voters it really is hard to feel like your vote counts. You can easily imagine the outcome of an election w/o your vote & more often than not it's irrefutable that your vote actually did do nothing bc 1 side never wins by 1 vote. (Sure if everyone thought that & they didn't vote then that'd be a problem but that's never the case.)

4: they think things will change for the better, & at the same speed, whether or not they take action to help make it happen.

5: they feel we shouldn't all have to go vegan to make the killing stop. They wonder: why does that have to be the only way, why can't the murderers of animals just stop killing & start waiting for the animals to die of old age or other natural causes?

6: they want to fit in with their friends & family & etc.

7: they feel like eating the animal is causing some kind of bonding with the eternal soul of the animal.

8: they feel like the animal chose to incarnate & suffer for the sole purpose of getting eaten by them since all is well & meant to be.

9: they find meat/dairy eating to be more convenient.

10: they're convinced their body needs it since it's always had it. they think they'll lose too much weight w/o it or get sick & etc.

11: they find meat/dairy to be grounding.

12: they give zero fcks.

That's a really good summary. This is true compassion as you seek to understand why this is happening and understanding it with love instead of fighting it like it doesn't have it's place in reality. Reality is what it is and meat is being eaten that some want it or not. Fighting it is useless, you can only succeed at fighting yourself. The choice of doing or not is personal and isn't relevant to any level of spirituality. It will be good for some to become vegan to evolve spiritually while some aren't bounded with such catalyst. Maybe one day everybody will become vegan but I feel compassion has a better way of spreading understanding about it than making people who eat meat feel bad about it. So far vegan/meat eaters thread have only been mirrors of lack of compassion. It is better to learn from it's result than suffering from it.

[Jade]

I, personally, do not think the vegan/meat eater threads have been arguments solely lacking compassion. I think throughout the course of time we have all invested a lot of compassion into this discussion. In fact, the discussion is oozing with compassion, maybe too much.

Actually, I would maybe tailor that to say that the arguments suffer from too much empathy. The vegans empathize with the meat eaters and vice versa, which is a large gap to cross, and causes lots of confusion and frustration. But, the only thing we can do to cover the ground between everyone is to continue to share our honest feelings without fear and with open hearts.

[Nicholas]

The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become vegan?

Here's some possible reasons I could think of:

1: they enjoy the taste & texture of meat/dairy.

2: they're with a SO that really doesn't want to make the change & so consequently it'd be too much trouble for just them to do it.

3: they don't believe they're actually contributing to the problem. In other words, they may feel like their "vote" really won't count. When there's a large amount of voters it really is hard to feel like your vote counts. You can easily imagine the outcome of an election w/o your vote & more often than not it's irrefutable that your vote actually did do nothing bc 1 side never wins by 1 vote. (Sure if everyone thought that & they didn't vote then that'd be a problem but that's never the case.)

4: they think things will change for the better, & at the same speed, whether or not they take action to help make it happen.

5: they feel we shouldn't all have to go vegan to make the killing stop. They wonder: why does that have to be the only way, why can't the murderers of animals just stop killing & start waiting for the animals to die of old age or other natural causes?

6: they want to fit in with their friends & family & etc.

7: they feel like eating the animal is causing some kind of bonding with the eternal soul of the animal.

8: they feel like the animal chose to incarnate & suffer for the sole purpose of getting eaten by them since all is well & meant to be.

9: they find meat/dairy eating to be more convenient.

10: they're convinced their body needs it since it's always had it. they think they'll lose too much weight w/o it or get sick & etc.

11: they find meat/dairy to be grounding.

12: they give zero fcks.

I am not a vegan because I love to eat eggs, primarily. Isis, number 6 nails it for me personally because I don't like to go over old ground where my in laws are concerned. My father in law (soon to be) is a catering lecturer and effortlessly creates a 3 course meal while sipping on red wine. I once told him that I don't intend to be a bricklayer my whole life and he argued what was wrong with it. Obviously there is nothing wrong with building structures that protect against the wind and rain, but my lack of enthusiasm baffled him. So trying to explain to him that fruit, nuts and seeds are my favourite 3 course choices would merely invite more questions that I have yet to muster the energy to answer. 

So I opt for eating what he places in front of me instead.

[Night Owl]

I, personally, do not think the vegan/meat eater threads have been arguments solely lacking compassion. I think throughout the course of time we have all invested a lot of compassion into this discussion. In fact, the discussion is oozing with compassion, maybe too much.

Actually, I would maybe tailor that to say that the arguments suffer from too much empathy. The vegans empathize with the meat eaters and vice versa, which is a large gap to cross, and causes lots of confusion and frustration. But, the only thing we can do to cover the ground between everyone is to continue to share our honest feelings without fear and with open hearts.

I'm not saying there is an absolute lack of compassion, but the arguing over eating eat being good or bad is the reason those threads have 45 pages. I appologize though for almost implying this involves everybody. Only a few members are involved in this. There is in fact a majority of compassionate people in every thread.

[Aion]

Such deep level of sarcasm. Much suffering I sense here excluding the suffering of animals.

You have also sensed it. The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become vegan? I think the healing of an incarnation is too easily brushed aside, and too easily not brought into consideration during the discussion of such personal matters, such as this one. 

Personally I think this way of thinking is... I'm not quite sure, evangelistic?

If I was to alter your sentence here slightly - "The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become [Christian/Buddhist/Muslim/etc]?"

Now I'm sure it will be said that this discussion is totally different from religion but I don't think it is. It is an ideology based on a philosophy which often ties back to morals or logic. It is an attempt to alter or choose one's behaviours to be more in alignment with the fundamental philosophy one has. Therefore, however, its success is founded upon that foundation of philosophy.

In other words I think if someone ate vegan but hated every moment of it they would probably become very unhealthy, maybe much worse than otherwise. Unless, perhaps, they have absolute faith that it works regardless of any enjoyment.

[Night Owl]

Such deep level of sarcasm. Much suffering I sense here excluding the suffering of animals.

You have also sensed it. The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become vegan? I think the healing of an incarnation is too easily brushed aside, and too easily not brought into consideration during the discussion of such personal matters, such as this one. 

Personally I think this way of thinking is... I'm not quite sure, evangelistic?

If I was to alter your sentence here slightly - "The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become [Christian/Buddhist/Muslim/etc]?"

Now I'm sure it will be said that this discussion is totally different from religion but I don't think it is. It is an ideology based on a philosophy which often ties back to morals or logic. It is an attempt to alter or choose one's behaviours to be more in alignment with the fundamental philosophy one has. Therefore, however, its success is founded upon that foundation of philosophy.

In other words I think if someone ate vegan but hated every moment of it they would probably become very unhealthy, maybe much worse than otherwise. Unless, perhaps, they have absolute faith that it works regardless of any enjoyment.

I firmly believe in what you just said.
I came across this today and I think it pretty much says the same thing as you do. It's a post on keenu reeves FB page. I'll just copy paste:

"My friend's mom has eaten healthy all her life. Never ever consumed alcohol or any "bad" food, exercised every day, very limber, very active, took all supplements suggested by her doctor, never went in the sun without sunscreen and when she did it was for as short a period as possible- so pretty much she protected her health with the utmost that anyone could. She is now 76 and has skin cancer, bone marrow cancer and extreme osteoporosis.
My friend's father eats bacon on top of bacon, butter on top of butter, fat on top of fat, never and I mean never exercised, was out in the sun burnt to a crisp every summer, he basically took the approach to live life to his fullest and not as others suggest. He is 81 and the doctors says his health is that of a young person.
People you cannot hide from your poison. It's out there and it will find you so in the words of my friend's still living mother: " if I would have known my life would end this way I would have lived it more to the fullest enjoying everything I was told not to!"
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Eat the delicious food. Walk in the sunshine. Jump in the ocean. Say the truth that you’re carrying in your heart like hidden treasure. Be silly. Be kind. Be weird. There’s no time for anything else."

[Diana]

Personally I think this way of thinking is... I'm not quite sure, evangelistic?

If I was to alter your sentence here slightly - "The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become [Christian/Buddhist/Muslim/etc]?"

Do you really think this is the same? It sounds logical, and it may be similar in phrasing, but I think there are great differences.

There is great suffering as a result of factory-farmed animals. This suffering includes the planet and its ecosystem. That is the main difference. These animals don't have a choice (unless you want to include the guess/hypothesis/supposition/rationalization that the animals chose it on a soul level.

In other words I think if someone ate vegan but hated every moment of it they would probably become very unhealthy, maybe much worse than otherwise. Unless, perhaps, they have absolute faith that it works regardless of any enjoyment.

This is true. It's true of any conscious disconnect that humans operate by. It is the responsibility of the individual to square his/her decisions with his/her reactions, and not poison the self and the existence of the all with hate.

I think it is an extreme, unrealistic example however. I am vegan out of love. That love I think, would be part of any vegan's decision not to contribute to animal suffering. There is love of self even if the vegan has become so out of self-interest only. Hate is a choice like everything else.

[Diana]

"My friend's mom has eaten healthy all her life. Never ever consumed alcohol or any "bad" food, exercised every day, very limber, very active, took all supplements suggested by her doctor, never went in the sun without sunscreen and when she did it was for as short a period as possible- so pretty much she protected her health with the utmost that anyone could. She is now 76 and has skin cancer, bone marrow cancer and extreme osteoporosis.
My friend's father eats bacon on top of bacon, butter on top of butter, fat on top of fat, never and I mean never exercised, was out in the sun burnt to a crisp every summer, he basically took the approach to live life to his fullest and not as others suggest. He is 81 and the doctors says his health is that of a young person.

There is more to illness than what one eats or does or does not do to exercise the body. There are emotions, attitudes, and possibly the influences of other(past) lives and the concept of karma.

"People you cannot hide from your poison. It's out there and it will find you so in the words of my friend's still living mother: " if I would have known my life would end this way I would have lived it more to the fullest enjoying everything I was told not to!"
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Eat the delicious food. Walk in the sunshine. Jump in the ocean. Say the truth that you’re carrying in your heart like hidden treasure. Be silly. Be kind. Be weird. There’s no time for anything else."

The sentiment here is very sound. I definitely live by this. But I don't just do things on a whim which will harm other beings. It's not as simple as these people, who are now dying, make out. They are speaking from REGRET. Regret is fear. I do these things out of love. And when operating from love, harming others is not part of the equation. And I speak not in judgment, because I realize that most people are acting out of ignorance of the true situation when consuming factory-farmed animal products.

And certainly any joy one experiences adds to the collective. I personally just would not wish that joy to be predicated upon the suffering of others. This all depends upon what we are or are not aware of of course, in this 3D place (or 4D as some are saying) which seems rife with suffering.

[Night Owl]

[quote]
"My friend's mom has eaten healthy all her life. Never ever consumed alcohol or any "bad" food, exercised every day, very limber, very active, took all supplements suggested by her doctor, never went in the sun without sunscreen and when she did it was for as short a period as possible- so pretty much she protected her health with the utmost that anyone could. She is now 76 and has skin cancer, bone marrow cancer and extreme osteoporosis.
My friend's father eats bacon on top of bacon, butter on top of butter, fat on top of fat, never and I mean never exercised, was out in the sun burnt to a crisp every summer, he basically took the approach to live life to his fullest and not as others suggest. He is 81 and the doctors says his health is that of a young person.

There is more to illness than what one eats or does or does not do to exercise the body. There are emotions, attitudes, and possibly the influences of other(past) lives and the concept of karma.

That's exactly what I was implying. If one would kill every animal he eats and succeed at believe he is doing so out of love then he would be way more healthy than any vegan who doesn't enjoy it's experience. The thing though is that not every entity can enjoy being a vegan once meat has found it's way in his habits. It's about the perspective that entity has towards it and therefore judging any entity for eating meat isn't a compassionate thing to do. I'm not implying that you do, I speak on an external perspective of any previous discussion that included such behaviors.

[Aion]

Personally I think this way of thinking is... I'm not quite sure, evangelistic?

If I was to alter your sentence here slightly - "The heart of the matter for me is why are soo many individuals not ready to become [Christian/Buddhist/Muslim/etc]?"

Do you really think this is the same? It sounds logical, and it may be similar in phrasing, but I think there are great differences.

There is great suffering as a result of factory-farmed animals. This suffering includes the planet and its ecosystem. That is the main difference. These animals don't have a choice (unless you want to include the guess/hypothesis/supposition/rationalization that the animals chose it on a soul level.

In other words I think if someone ate vegan but hated every moment of it they would probably become very unhealthy, maybe much worse than otherwise. Unless, perhaps, they have absolute faith that it works regardless of any enjoyment.

This is true. It's true of any conscious disconnect that humans operate by. It is the responsibility of the individual to square his/her decisions with his/her reactions, and not poison the self and the existence of the all with hate.

I think it is an extreme, unrealistic example however. I am vegan out of love. That love I think, would be part of any vegan's decision not to contribute to animal suffering. There is love of self even if the vegan has become so out of self-interest only. Hate is a choice like everything else.

You can choose to eat meat based on love of self too, or for other reasons of love. Regardless of how many people deny that because of their own justifications for their choices.

I don't think it's different. How many suffer because of religion?

[Jade]

I can agree that veganism can be likened to a religion/philosophical identity if we also agree that carnism can be likened to a religion/philosophical identity. However, what you express is much more likely to happen - guilt and self-loathing that makes one sick - with those who eat meat and feel guilty about it. Really, most vegans are pretty guilt-free about what they eat which is why so many people project self-righteousness upon them. I think the number of people who are sick because of inherent guilt due to the diet they cling to far outweigh those who would ever feel guilty for changing their diet. (I say that with loose definition to 'changing ones diet' meaning in the way that Ra says it's the most simple analogue to changing the way one treats the self)

So if we're talking about possible dangers due to one's thought patterns in relation to their choice of their diet, there is one path that is far more dangerous - maintaining the status quo. Being flexible to change is always the more ideal end-state.

---

In response to the Keanu quote, it has nothing to do with veganism vs. omnivorism. The parable offers two characters, one who is always waiting for the shoe to drop and the other who seems to not have a care in the world. Of course the person who constantly worries about their health will display more indicators of poor health than the person who has no worries about their health. The idea that one should be a hedonist without any regard to others ("bacon upon bacon") is indeed quite a selfish attitude to promote, however. I eat what I want, in copious amounts. I eat lots of "unhealthy" junk food. I just draw a line for my own personal ethical boundaries that says I won't eat something that was tortured before it got to my plate. The idea that I am punishing myself or being ascetic by being vegan is just plain wrong. That's not the point. The point is that I want to see all the cows, pigs, chickens, goats, and turkeys living in an environment where they can thrive, not be exploited. I want that for all of us. So I don't participate in systems that promulgate the opposite.

[Plenum]

I think the issue is that whatever choice of diet one makes, if it's done for the reason of following some external rule, then it's not motivated by understanding and an inner alignment to that choice.  

How often is the argument pushed that veganism/vegetarianism is the most superior/healthy diet?  That's just not true.  One can eat poorly as a vegan/vegetarian, just as one can eat poorly as an omnivore.  It's about balance, and what your particular body needs at that particular life junction.  Diets change as needs change.

[Night Owl]

I didn't said I promote everything in the keenu post, I'm just saying basically your thoughts about it are more important than what you eat. The rest are just characters. And they are certainly unaware of any subjects on the forum. Don't hold that against me. I just didn't censure the rest of the post for the sake of one's understanding the perspective of it. Those words do not come out of my mouth.

[Matt1]

Going vegetarian isn't that difficult to be honest. I think in the spiritual sense its obvious the better choice.

If you want to help animals and the planet then go Vegan or Vegetarian, if not then don't.

[Night Owl]

For someone who likes vedgetables yeah pretty much.

[Diana]

You can choose to eat meat based on love of self too, or for other reasons of love. Regardless of how many people deny that because of their own justifications for their choices.

I don't think it's different. How many suffer because of religion?

You can choose to eat meat out of love of self, yes. But not out of love of others, unless the others are extremely limited to extensions of self such as family, or in other words, only some others. Others by very definition in the LOO is everyone(thing). There may be a rare case such as your own where you are trying to transmute the suffering by way of participating it; aside from the fact that you are contributing to the suffering in order to do this, if you are doing it out of love then why do you feel a need to change it?

I will say now that though I am here discussing the subject speaking my truth to those who consent to these discussions, and though I am appalled by the suffering of animals here, I am not trying to change it. I am very aware of my razor's edge existence here, in that I accept a world I came into (not without challenge) though I do not resonate at all with so much of it. If I affect some humans with my own compassion, great, but it is not my goal.

Religion has indeed caused much suffering and continues to do so. And like eating meat, it is a choice, and I think, an unnecessary one. It's different in many respects, though. Factory farming animals for mass consumption is causing great harm to the planet we live on, our home, to say nothing of the suffering it causes to animals. Religion is human-based, and while some results of its destructive nature may reach to the planet and life on it other than human, factory farming animals has a direct affect on the lives of the animal other-selves and the planet's health.

Religion, in my opinion, is another aspect of 3D which does not align with compassion, so hopefully, it will fade away, as hopefully using animals without compassion will.

[Night Owl]

You cannot eat meat out of love for others? So animals would be the only part of the entire creation that experience an experience they didn't choose? I'm actually impressed

[Diana]

You cannot eat meat out of love for others? So animals would be the only part of the entire creation that experience an experience they didn't choose? I'm actually impressed

There is no need for sarcasm, if that is what the above is.

Please reread my post, which you do not seem to have comprehended in full.

And you might canvass more of this thread and others where the idea of animals choosing the suffering of factory farms is discussed many, many times. But for simplicity's sake, I will just say that regardless if this notion is true—that animals choose this suffering—it is quite another matter whether or not YOU choose to participate in causing the suffering.

[Aion]

This cracks me up. So easy to ignite this argument. The same things said ad infinitum.

[Diana]

This cracks me up. So easy to ignite this argument. The same things said ad infinitum.

Yes that's true. I was trying to be considerate in repeating myself for this conversation. 

But let's not poke fun if that's possible. I really doubt that it's anyone's intention to argue rather than to discuss or debate. This subject matter does however incite reactive emotions. Laughing at it is probably a good way to diffuse situations, but laughing at others might not be.