________

[GentleWanderer]

_______

[YinYang]

hold in high regard by many

By whom exactly, GentleWanderer? She was a rabid anti-semite who considered the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima as "a wonderful day for humanity" and "the greatest spiritual event which has taken place" - her own words. You just know how to pick 'em don't you? First Gurdjieff, then Castenada and now Bailey...

[Infinite]

She was a rabid anti-semite who considered the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima as "a wonderful day for humanity" and "the greatest spiritual event which has taken place" - her own words.

What's the source to this?

First Gurdjieff

What the problem with him?

[YinYang]

I guess you just have to do your own research, I'm kind of over intellectual laziness...nothing in this world is for free. And if you find them all to be just your cup of tea, I say BRAVO!

[GentleWanderer]

_______

[YinYang]

No teacher is perfect indeed, but I scratch someone out completely for certain things, things like rabid antisemitism (in her own words in her own books) and elation over the atomic bombs (in her own words in her own books). And let's not recapitulate the Gurdjieff saga, but if someone manipulates, terrorises and traumatises others his entire life, and is the teacher of Karl Haushofer, who in turn is Rudolf Hess' mentor, Hitler's "magician", and one of the architects of the holocaust, and you still admire him... then I just don't know...

Castenada has also been covered...  

You just seem to be attracted to one negative adept after another... but as I said, if that's your cup of tea, then so it is.

[Nau7ik]

I didn't comment because I have never looked into Bailey. I haven't heard such great things about her though. That's why I liked YinYangs post.

To be fair, GentleWanderer was only asking what we thought because he is a little skeptical. (I'm assuming correct me if I'm wrong.)

If one can navigate through negative distortions then I do believe there are valueable bits of information here and there. I'm studying one of Crowley's works right now, the Book of Thoth. I think he was a master with qabalah, but he was of mixed polarity. So one just has to be careful. But I have heard S Mandelker mention that some of Bailey's metaphysics are helpful.

May Love and Light be with you, my brother, and may your aim be true!

[YinYang]

There is a lot to learn from these individuals, their wisdom was immense, they were adepts after all. As Carla would say: "wisdom without love is a wicked thing".

I guess if I have to be honest, I just find it a curious thing that GentleWanderer parades them out one after another, on a forum dedicated to positive philosophy. He doesn't say "please tread carefully" or something to that effect, he says things like "I believe he was STO" (Gurdjieff), "held in high regard" (Bailey)...

That's when I get that "snake in the grass" feeling, but I might be wrong.

[Nau7ik]

There is a lot to learn from these individuals, their wisdom was immense, they were adepts after all. As Carla would say: "wisdom without love is a wicked thing".

I guess if I have to be honest, I just find it a curious thing that GentleWanderer parades them out one after another, on a forum dedicated to positive philosophy. He doesn't say "please tread carefully" or something to that effect, he says things like "I believe he was STO" (Gurdjieff), "held in high regard" (Bailey)...

That's when I get that "snake in the grass" feeling, but I might be wrong.

I absolutely agree that wisdom without love is a wicked thing. It's always nice to hear Carla's loving wisdom She makes my heart smile. Anyway, that's the problem I find with many negative adepts or those of confused, mixed polarity: the element of Love is missing.

So, that's a good standard for judgment: with love or without love.
Wise love and compassionate wisdom in discernment for the positive seeker, in my opinion.

[Fuse]

For anyone sincerely interested in the original question, here is what I know about Alice Bailey. As a preview, what I know about Alice Bailey isn't good.

Theosophy was a spiritual movement founded, formally, in November 1875 by a Russian woman named Helena Blavatsky, who after worldwide travel and a lifelong sequence of events I'll let you study on your own, vanished to Tibet. (And apologies Gentle, if you know all of this already.) Her family thought her dead for a long time, but they received a letter back from a Tibetan Buddhist master informing them that she was well. When she finally returned, she founded the Theosophical Society in New York City. The movement she founded was a big part of bringing Buddhist teachings from the East back into the West, a crucial move in seeding Western consciousness with teachings about meditation, chakras, etc.

Later, some of Blavatsky's students, a man named C.W. Leadbeater and a woman named Annie Besant, in particular, more or less caused a rift within the movement and splintered off a faction. The teachings and practices of this faction were roundly denounced by Blavatsky and the rest, and for damn good reasons. I'll let you investigate Leadbeater and the accusations of criminality that swirl around his name on your own, but suffice it to say that he and Besant are surmised to have been Jesuit plants inserted into the Theosophical movement in order to bastardize and disrupt it, which they successfully did. The dark wizards that [used to] run this planet are purportedly the original founders of the Jesuit order, and perpetuate their movement through pedophilia and, evidently, child sacrifice. I'll let you investigate Leadbeater and Besant on your own, as I said, but as a clue, start with the allegations of child rape.

Alice Bailey stood on their shoulders and furthered their work.

If you want to see real Theosophy, check out: https://blavatskytheosophy.com/

These are the people who hold the uncorrupted Theosophical tradition. Read "The Secret Doctrine," and the "Key to Theosophy." (Maybe not in that order. "The Secret Doctrine" is...high density information.)

I get the appeal of Bailey and Besant's writings. They did present some [highly distorted] truth about our spiritual makeup in a Christian context. But "The Law of One" and the rest of L/L's meeting transcripts contain VASTLY more Christian Truth than anything you'd find in "pseudotheosophy" as Blavatsky called it, derisively.

Blavatsky's writings are fascinating, but they served their purpose a century ago, and MUCH has changed since then. My advice is stick with the work of Saint Carla the Voice and her colleagues.

[GentleWanderer]

_______

[anagogy]

If one can navigate through negative distortions then I do believe there are valueable bits of information here and there. I'm studying one of Crowley's works right now, the Book of Thoth. I think he was a master with qabalah, but he was of mixed polarity. So one just has to be careful. But I have heard S Mandelker mention that some of Bailey's metaphysics are helpful.

This is exactly it. And also why it is a grave mistake to fall prey to black and white thinking, which I'm seeing become increasingly prevalent in the world today.

Every single person has flaws in their perspective.

If a fly lands on a piece of cake, does that mean we throw out the whole cake? No, just throw out the part the fly landed on.

[GentleWanderer]

________

[YinYang]

Yin i understand and respect your approach. It's essential protect oneself and others.

Then why aren't you protecting yourself and others, GentleWanderer? If you consider it "essential"?

I doubt you've read any of the books or links I provided you with in the Gurdjieff thread. You might as well say "I don't care how many people he has brutally manipulated, abused and destroyed, I get a good vibe from him..." (same as the Castenada crowd)

Ra: The negative polarity is clever.

As for Castenada? Why don't you read Amy Wallace's book? It's that intellectual laziness I mentioned earlier, you open a thread asking about a particular individual, and when someone assists you, you reject it. That's what I find curious about your "enquiries", I get the impression only the rave reviews are welcome. It's easily one of the most disturbing cult memoirs I've ever read. George R.R. Martin, author of Game of Thrones, gave the best review on the book:

Truth hurts … and so does Sorcerer’s Apprentice. Amy Wallace’s harrowing account of her years as Carlos Castaneda’s lover and disciple is a cautionary tale for our times, the story of a woman whose search for meaning took her to the brink, and damned near cost her everything. In this painfully honest memoir, she takes us deep inside the Castaneda cult and shows us the mind games, ego trips, and petty cruelties that wore the guise of wisdom. ‘Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!’ the Wizard once tried to tell Dorothy. Amy Wallace has ripped the curtain down, and laid the wizard bare for all to see.

She's a hero in my eyes (she has passed away recently), and she has used her painful experience to help others. He was a psychopath, as was Gurdjieff, as was Bailey, if you haven't quite put two and two together yet... Are you familiar with abductive reasoning? "If it looks like a psychopath, swims like a psychopath, and quacks like a psychopath, then it probably is a psychopath."

And while we're on Castenada, read these too (if you are sincere in your enquiries):

Castaneda's Journey: The Power and the Allegory

The Don Juan Papers: Further Castaneda Controversies

The dark legacy of Carlos Castaneda

You also haven't answered my initial question in this thread. Who holds Bailey in high regard? I want to know why you inserted that in your "question"? Rather say "I hold her in high regard", which rings closer to the truth, due to the pattern I have now observed with you.

I am kind of over these "truth crusades" of mine, people just detest seeing their gurus exposed... it results in major mud-slinging contests, as you've seen in the Gurdjieff thread, which I detest...

[YinYang]

a man named C.W. Leadbeater and a woman named Annie Besant

The only positive thing that has come from that unholy alliance, is Jiddu Krishnamurti. This is still one of the best speeches in history, when he dissolved the cult. I can read it again and again and again...

Truth is a pathless land

The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order. On August 3, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members. Below is the full text of the talk he gave on that occasion.

“We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain. “You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organizations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, please understand this. I would make use of an organization which would take me to London, for example; this is quite a different kind of organization, merely mechanical, like the post or the telegraph. I would use a motor car or a steamship to travel, these are only physical mechanisms which have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Again, I maintain that no organization can lead man to spirituality.

If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it. No one has persuaded me to this decision. “This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this: not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality. “Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussions year after year.

One newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organization in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because, he said: “What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you.” If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of compassion. If you go to a surgeon for an operation, is it not kindness on his part to operate even if he cause you pain? So, in like manner, if I speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection–on the contrary.

As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization of the self.

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole–not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal–I desire those, who seek to understand me to be free; not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears–from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want anything from anyone. “You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers--a miracle–transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyze what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally. When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.

If I talk frankly, please remember that I do so, not out of harshness, not out of cruelty, not out of the enthusiasm of my purpose, but because I want you to understand what I am saying. That is the reason why you are here, and it would be a waste of time if I did not explain clearly, decisively, my point of view. “For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a new encouragement, who would set you free–and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different–not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all the unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every Society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organization of the Star become different? “As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you believe that I am the World–Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World–Teacher– partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths.

You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old–all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying. “This understanding is necessary because your belief has not transformed you but only complicated you, and because you are not willing to face things as they are. You want to have your own gods–new gods instead of the old, new religions instead of the old, new forms instead of the old–all equally valueless, all barriers, all limitations, all crutches. Instead of old spiritual distinctions you have new spiritual distinctions, instead of old worships you have new worships. You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me for eighteen years, when I say all these things are unnecessary, when I say that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organization?

Why have false, hypocritical people following me, the embodiment of Truth? Please remember that I am not saying something harsh or unkind, but we have reached a situation when you must face things as they are. I said last year that I would not compromise. Very few listened to me then. This year I have made it absolutely clear. I do not know how many thousands throughout the world–members of the Order–have been preparing for me for eighteen years, and yet now they are not willing to listen unconditionally, wholly, to what I say.

As I said before, my purpose is to make men unconditionally free, for I maintain that the only spirituality is the incorruptibility of the self which is eternal, is the harmony between reason and love. This is the absolute, unconditioned Truth which is Life itself. I want therefore to set man free, rejoicing as the bird in the clear sky, unburdened, independent, ecstatic in that freedom . And I, for whom you have been preparing for eighteen years, now say that you must be free of all these things, free from your complications, your entanglements. For this you need not have an organization based on spiritual belief. Why have an organization for five or ten people in the world who understand, who are struggling, who have put aside all trivial things? And for the weak people, there can be no organization to help them to find the Truth, because Truth is in everyone; it is not far, it is not near; it is eternally there.

Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern.

How many members are there in it?” That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. “How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false.” I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. As I said, if there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough.

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity.

So you will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.

You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are beautiful or ugly within? Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship–which you do not seem to know–there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So these are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone. I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free."

[Infinite]

Well, every spiritual teacher, guru, master. etc. was discredit. This is of the human nature. Always try discredit someone that think different.

*******************
About Alice Bailey I really don't know her work so I can't judge this negative impressions.
********************

But, who accuse Leadbeater never did read "The Masters and The Path". This book have a higher vibration in your words. It's very perceptible. Here a little passage (that spoke about unity):

REALIZATION OF UNITY

        All that lives is really one, and it is the duty of those who enter the Brotherhood to know that as a fact. We are taught that the Self is one, and we try to understand what that means; but it is quite a different thing when we see it for ourselves, as the candidate does when he enters the buddhic plane. It is as if in physical life we were each living at the bottom of a well, from which we may look up at the sunlight in the world above; and just as the light shines down into the depth of many wells, and yet ever remains the one light, so does the Light of the One illumine the darkness of our hearts. The Initiate has climbed out of the well of the personality, and sees that the light which he thought to be himself is in very truth the Infinite Light of all.

        While living in the causal body, the ego already acknowledged the Divine Consciousness in all; when he looked upon another ego his consciousness leapt up as it were to recognize the Divine in him. But on the buddhic plane it no longer leaps to greet him from without, for it is already enshrined within his heart. He is that consciousness and it is his. There is no longer the “you” and the “I,” for both are one-- facets of something that transcends and yet includes them both.

        Yet in all this strange advance there is no loss of the sense of individuality, even though there is an utter loss of the sense of separateness. That seems a paradox, while yet it is obviously true. The man remembers all that lies behind him. He is himself, the same man who did this action or that in the far-off past. He is in no way changed, except that now he is much more than he was then, and feels that he includes within himself many other manifestations as well. If here and now a hundred of us could simultaneously raise our consciousness into the intuitional world, we should all be one consciousness, but to each man that would seem to be his own, absolutely unchanged, except that now it included all the others as well.

        To each it would seem that it was he who had absorbed or included all those others, so we are here manifestly in the presence of a kind of illusion, and a little further realization makes it clear to us that we are all facets of a greater consciousness, and that what we have hitherto thought to be our qualities, our intellect, our energies have all the time been His qualities, His intellect, His energy. We have arrived at the realization in actual fact of the time-honoured formula : “Thou art That.” It is one thing to talk about this down here and to grasp it, or to think that we grasp it, intellectually; but it is quite another to enter into that marvellous world and know it with a certainty that can never again be shaken.

        When this buddhic consciousness fully impresses the physical brain, it gives a new value to all the actions and relations of life. We no longer look upon a person or object, no matter with what degree of kindliness or sympathy; we simply are that person or object, and we know him or it as we know the thought of our own brain or the movement of our own hand. We appreciate his motives as our own motives, even though we may perfectly understand that another part of ourselves, possessing more knowledge or a different view-point, might act quite differently.

        Yet it must not be supposed that when a man enters upon the lowest sub-division of the intuitional world he at once becomes fully conscious of his unity with all that lives. That perfection of sense comes only as the result of much toil and trouble, when he has reached the highest sub-division of this realm of unity. To enter that plane at all is to experience an enormous extension of consciousness, to realize himself as one with many others; but before him there opens a time of effort, of self-development, analogous at that level to what we do down here when by meditation we try to open our consciousness to the plane next above us. Step by step, sub-plane by sub-plane, the aspirant must win his way; for even at that level exertion is still necessary if progress is to be made.

        Having passed the first Initiation and consciously entered the buddhic plane, this work of developing himself on sub-plane after sub-plane now lies before the candidate, in order that he may get rid of the three great fetters, as they are technically called, which embarrass his further progress. He is now definitely on the Path of Holiness, and is described in the Buddhist system as the Sotapatti or Sohan, “he who has entered the stream”; while among the Hindus he is called the Parivrajaka, which means “the wanderer,” one who no longer feels that any place in the three lower worlds is his abiding-place of refuge.

*****************
Gurdjieff is a more complicated case. First, it's necessary separate your teachings of your person. Many things that he talked was real and really works. But, he had a strange way of act with your students. G. already was seen with prostitutes, drunk and another things like that. But, when he was confronted showed that was a encenation. (This is wrote in some books written by your students). G. was an actor. This was the way that he acted with your students. It's very strange but TO YOUR SPECIFIC TEACHING, this was necessary. Also, was a manner to separete who wanted learn and who don't.

******************
I don't talking that every guru was wronged (for example, Osho really was a negative guru) but this type of person every is constantly attacked by the Dark Forces.

[GentleWanderer]

_______

[YinYang]

First, it's necessary separate your teachings of your person.

Don't agree. I have said it before on this forum, it matters who the person was/is, it always matters.

In some of his writings Scott Mandelker talk about her.

Okay, that explains it. Scott Mandelker shouldn't teach. And now that some people's gurus have been criticised, the inevitable mud-slinging contest will ensue, right on cue.

Adios amigos!

[rva_jeremy]

You just seem to be attracted to one negative adept after another... but as I said, if that's your cup of tea, then so it is.

This is why I really don't like attributing polarity to people.  I can like what I like and dislike what I dislike about a person, and both of those feelings can exist without any contradiction.  But once you slap a label on a person, suddenly there's a kind of inconsistency that emerges if you do anything but treat them as the exemplar of the label.  Human beings are complex and I personally do not feel I occupy the vantage point to see polarity without distortion and bias.

[YinYang]

I'm sorry, GentleWander, if I have made incorrect assumptions. It's a jungle out there...

[YinYang]

This is why I really don't like attributing polarity to people.

We will have to disagree on this, rva_jeremy, as these just happen to be individuals I have studied intensively. I practically had a whole bookshelf with their books, and the memoirs of their disciples.

But once you slap a label on a person, suddenly there's a kind of inconsistency that emerges if you do anything but treat them as the exemplar of the label.  Human beings are complex and I personally do not feel I occupy the vantage point to see polarity without distortion and bias.

I agree with you on this in everyday life, I don't do it in everyday life. These are not everyday life examples, they were extreme cases. If we reach a point where whistle blowers are silenced, where does that leave us? No one can open their mouths anymore and say "be careful, that person is a master manipulator and deceiver, and here's the evidence."

[Infinite]

Don't agree. I have said it before on this forum,

Yes. I know your opinion from another threads. But, I don't see the world as black or white. Discard or accept. As I said, while we don't have FACTUAL PROOFS (like the case of Osho) we can't discard teachings because rumors. This is my humble opinion.

[YinYang]

I don't see the world as black and white either, Infinite. With all these individuals, we HAVE "factual proofs" as you call it, thanks to their prolific disciples. No man is an island, and public figures are open to public scrutiny.

[YinYang]

PeacefulWarrior, since you liked rva_jeremy's post about not attributing polarity to people, I was wondering what makes you so sure that Ayn Rand was negative. You've used her as an example of negative polarity numerous times on this forum, and I agree with you, she is another good example. Is it possible that you have just aquanted yourself with the matter, as I have with the above individuals, and there is simply no other conclusion to come to?

[Infinite]

With all these individuals, we HAVE "factual proofs" as you call it, thanks to their prolific disciples.

It's necessary caution with "anecdotal proofs" derived from reports. These reports never are numerous but so few and no enough to accuse someone. For example, no one acusation against Leadbeater was proofed. Gurdjieff, many times, admited that was pretending (just read the books of your disciples). These negative information generally are motived by ego and jealousy. Yet, many information of their is compatible with "Ra Material". So, it's really necessary caution to judge someone that can't defense yourself anymore.

[rva_jeremy]

PeacefulWarrior, since you liked rva_jeremy's post about not attributing polarity to people, I was wondering what makes you so sure that Ayn Rand was negative. You've used her as an example of negative polarity numerous times on this forum, and I agree with you, she is another good example. Is it possible that you have just aquanted yourself with the matter, as I have with the above individuals, and there is simply no other conclusion to come to?

I don't mean to contradict you all the time, YinYang, but this is a topic I've given a lot of thought to.  I think our sentiments are largely aligned even if what we're willing to say diverges.

It's much easier to attribute polarity to a given act or thought than a person. It's not a cakewalk since we don't always see intent clearly, but it definitely is a judgment we can make that carries less weight in dealing with another portion of the Creator.  For example, Ra's explanation of Moses and the Ten Commandments.  Moses could not have brought those through if his distortions were not energized in some way, so nobody is saying he's a perfect being.  At the same time, Ra does describe Moses as very positive.

Personally I find this approach highly liberating because it casts the choice of polarity as something we make in each and every moment.  It means everybody is capable of changing, and most of all for me, it means I'm capable of changing.  Being STO is something we decide in every moment--at least in our illusory ego minds--and not something we have previously accomplished and need no longer think about.  And therefore, that applies to everybody else, too, even people who are typified by negative acts: they could change, and if I were to miss that I would miss a crucial opportunity to serve.

[Glow]

By the way, in any domain it's very usual that to see that people who were brillant had also strong human weaknesses.

No idea who they are at the moment but gotta say ain't that the truth.

[Glow]

a man named C.W. Leadbeater and a woman named Annie Besant

The only positive thing that has come from that unholy alliance, is Jiddu Krishnamurti. This is still one of the best speeches in history, when he dissolved the cult. I can read it again and again and again...

Truth is a pathless land

The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order. On August 3, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members. Below is the full text of the talk he gave on that occasion.

“We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain. “You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organizations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, please understand this. I would make use of an organization which would take me to London, for example; this is quite a different kind of organization, merely mechanical, like the post or the telegraph. I would use a motor car or a steamship to travel, these are only physical mechanisms which have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Again, I maintain that no organization can lead man to spirituality.

If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it. No one has persuaded me to this decision. “This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this: not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality. “Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussions year after year.

One newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organization in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because, he said: “What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you.” If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of compassion. If you go to a surgeon for an operation, is it not kindness on his part to operate even if he cause you pain? So, in like manner, if I speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection–on the contrary.

As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization of the self.

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole–not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal–I desire those, who seek to understand me to be free; not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears–from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want anything from anyone. “You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers--a miracle–transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyze what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally. When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.

If I talk frankly, please remember that I do so, not out of harshness, not out of cruelty, not out of the enthusiasm of my purpose, but because I want you to understand what I am saying. That is the reason why you are here, and it would be a waste of time if I did not explain clearly, decisively, my point of view. “For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a new encouragement, who would set you free–and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different–not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all the unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every Society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organization of the Star become different? “As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you believe that I am the World–Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World–Teacher– partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths.

You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old–all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying. “This understanding is necessary because your belief has not transformed you but only complicated you, and because you are not willing to face things as they are. You want to have your own gods–new gods instead of the old, new religions instead of the old, new forms instead of the old–all equally valueless, all barriers, all limitations, all crutches. Instead of old spiritual distinctions you have new spiritual distinctions, instead of old worships you have new worships. You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me for eighteen years, when I say all these things are unnecessary, when I say that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organization?

Why have false, hypocritical people following me, the embodiment of Truth? Please remember that I am not saying something harsh or unkind, but we have reached a situation when you must face things as they are. I said last year that I would not compromise. Very few listened to me then. This year I have made it absolutely clear. I do not know how many thousands throughout the world–members of the Order–have been preparing for me for eighteen years, and yet now they are not willing to listen unconditionally, wholly, to what I say.

As I said before, my purpose is to make men unconditionally free, for I maintain that the only spirituality is the incorruptibility of the self which is eternal, is the harmony between reason and love. This is the absolute, unconditioned Truth which is Life itself. I want therefore to set man free, rejoicing as the bird in the clear sky, unburdened, independent, ecstatic in that freedom . And I, for whom you have been preparing for eighteen years, now say that you must be free of all these things, free from your complications, your entanglements. For this you need not have an organization based on spiritual belief. Why have an organization for five or ten people in the world who understand, who are struggling, who have put aside all trivial things? And for the weak people, there can be no organization to help them to find the Truth, because Truth is in everyone; it is not far, it is not near; it is eternally there.

Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern.

How many members are there in it?” That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. “How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false.” I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. As I said, if there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough.

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity.

So you will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.

You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are beautiful or ugly within? Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship–which you do not seem to know–there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So these are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone. I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free."

You don't hear his name much but what an amazing thing to do.

[YinYang]

I don't mean to contradict you all the time, YinYang, but this is a topic I've given a lot of thought to.  I think our sentiments are largely aligned even if what we're willing to say diverges.

It's much easier to attribute polarity to a given act or thought than a person.  It's not a cakewalk since we don't always see intent clearly, but it definitely is a judgment we can make that carries less weight in dealing with another portion of the Creator.  For example, Ra's explanation of Moses and the Ten Commandments.  Moses could not have brought those through if his distortions were not energized in some way, so nobody is saying he's a perfect being.  At the same time, Ra does describe Moses as very positive.

Personally I find this approach highly liberating because it casts the choice of polarity as something we make in each and every moment.  It means everybody is capable of changing, and most of all for me, it means I'm capable of changing.  Being STO is something we decide in every moment--at least in our illusory ego minds--and not something we have previously accomplished and need no longer think about.  And therefore, that applies to everybody else, too, even people who are typified by negative acts: they could change, and if I were to miss that I would miss a crucial opportunity to serve.

We've been on opposite ends of many viewpoints lately, rva_jeremy, which is all good. I don't mind that, differences of opinion is infinity afterall, which is the essence of the Creator. I'm am also well aware that anyone can switch polarity at any moment.

I think let me explain my motivation for coming over so strongly in these type of threads, which, by the way, I also question the wisdom of sometimes. I know the traps these people built, and I have read countless stories of people who 'have' walked into them, and the painful journeys of getting out again. The reason I question the wisdom of my approach, is because no-one can learn other people's lessons 'for' them.

So the least I can do, is just alert someone to tread carefully, I certainly can't prevent anyone from immersing themselves in Gurdjieff et al. I don't mind looking like the bad guy, these guru debates always get very ugly.

Let me pose a hypothetical question to you. If your child walks into the house one night and says "dad, I've joined Scientology"... how will you react?

[YinYang]

You don't hear his name much but what an amazing thing to do.

Jiddu Krishnamurti was just amazing. I can't imagine the courage it must have taken to do that. He should also be added to the positive adept thread, he was a big one!