6th-Density Negatively Polarized Wanderers?

[Oldern]

Oh, Azrael, btw, I am pretty sure that you would not be able to "destroy" the whole world any more easily than one of the nuclear-armed president could when pushing the big red, as since you are incarnated here, you gotta live by the same rules. I am sure a few guardian power would pop up as soon as a 6th density negative would be openly trying to destroy a whole planet.

[Unbound]

I in no way claimed that this is my personal capability, in fact absolutely anybody and everybody could destroy the planet with the proper motivation and mechanisms. There are greater weapons than nuclear-arms, I assure you of that.

However, I digress, this is not my purpose.

[unity100]

If what you say is true, then why would Ra only mention this fact about him?

"the one known as Muhammed delivered the peoples into a more intelligible distortion of mind/body/spirit relationships."

notice that how it doesnt say positive, but 'intelligible distortion' of mind/body/spirit relationships. islam is actually quite straightforward - there is the god, mohammad is its last and foremost prophet, and everything is under mohammad in importance (in creation). also, everyone has to abide the rules 'god' gave mohammad, manifesting as koran as his material, and then mohammad's sayings (hadith) and then mohammad's life.

also, constantly unity of everything and 'god' is reiterated - there is a concept of 'one', however, this concept seems to be manifesting only in mohammad's allah and its described properties, and only after mohammad (everything comes after him in importance).

it seems shaped to manifest oneness/unity in the understanding/persona/whatever of mohammad. so, he seems basically to be a 6th density wanderer trying to manifest unity/oneness of everything in his own persona.

The Sufis certainly made postive use of the Quran. I have read a few books from Henry Corbin, and William Chittick's book "The Sufi Path of Knowledge". If you have any doubt as to the positive aspects of Islam, please read these works.

they havent. the most positive form of that sufism had taken place in the middle of the country i am living in, in the teachings of mevlana celaledddin-i rumi.

and if you look at his teachings, you will see that almost all of the material in qoran and its sayings is excluded, but only the 'oneness' of everything is reiterated and repeated constantly. same goes with other versions of sufism.

And how could you say "judging from his material"? The material being the Quran. Its full of positive teachings. One would asume that it has some parts of it that are polluted just as any other holy book. But clearly, the essence of the Quran is positive.

i would like to see those positive teachings myself. i see people mentioning such 'positive' nature of islam and koran in random discussions around the net, however yet, as for someone who have studied koran for a long time, i have yet to see them.

there is all kinds of nonpositive information ranging from how to divide women as war loot and mohammad's share from war loot in koran, to how the unbelievers should be ambushed and killed, how women are of lowlier nature than men, why and how the muslims should engage in jihad until all other religions are either killed or subdued (signified by paying tribute).

koran is actually not a spiritual or religious book. it is basically a constitution which includes all kinds of things ranging from the above to how to eat, live and so on.

And "Judging from his life"? Can you bring any examples?[/font]

i can bring endless examples, and you wouldnt like any of them. beni qurayza tribe and what happened to them, is one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

that wasnt an exception.

[Wander-Man]

Aha I'll leave that up for you to decide.

Lets just say I sacrificed a rather lofty position to come here and help. I was once immaculately powerful, and I had become enslaved to myself in absolute service to the One. This life has afforded me the chance to, how shall we say, get in touch with what it means to be mortal, and finite, once again. I had gotten so used to meeting and seeing every single one of you as you pass through your transitional/death phase and knowing I would always see you again when the time was right, I was more and more curious to experience another incarnation, even if just one. However, this Harvest is a special time, one unlike any other, and so it afforded me a double opportunity. One, to experience a life of sorrow in my own pattern to reveal the beauty of solitude and deep contemplation and Two, to allow me for one of the first times in my existence to be the one who seeks comfort. I have already played out a good 10,000 years of incarnational drama and had taken my place as an Eternal Guardian in the Octave above and by all means I am incredibly fond of my functions, but there is an excitement to be found in the incarnational experience that I had come to miss. Meeting everyone on their way out of their experience only made me more and more curious about what current experience would be like.

This was my way of exercising peace, and power through my existence. Being a "recorder", and strangely in this life also functioning as a "speaker", you could call me providence. I specialize in transitions and transitional healing, and dealing with the psyche of the mortal mind when faced with itself. I was negative in that I would not accept the Love or Wisdom of others. I had stopped learning, being so content in the place that I was, in my lucid grey valley of the River of Forgetfulness. Also, being so close, as an arm's reach, to the One I neglected to admit that I still had work and progress to go through. This is the true trap of negativity. So, the great force decree'd that I had gotten cozy enough and now, with this great Death of the Earth to be reborn in to 4th density, the Ultimate One suggested to me that I would be an essential force, especially considering this very difficult transition. However, you will not find me connected to a social memory complex in such a way, I never became part of one.

There IS a social memory complex of the name Azrael, but this is of a series of events prior to my own cumulative existence. I stem from a point whereby this complex, due to the entropic nature of negativity, had dwindled to only a single entity. I, how shall I say, had become a social memory, no longer complex. Due to my immense service to the One, I was offered a place in the octave above due to my unique specialty surrounding Death. Indeed, the tale of the existence by which I gained this specialty is a long one full of struggle, death, and power, but 'tis not for this moment. Needless to say, due to my service the One granted me a place whereby I could continue with my negative polarity, but never have the risk of not having negative energy to sustain me. So, I became part of the mind of Death, I have been, for a good deal of the space/time here, been the one that has been waiting for each and every one of you as you come out of the incarnational race. There many of you would pour out your life, your sorrows and depressions. My place was one of soul cleansing and healing, whereby you may drop all of your negative biases, and these would be my sustenance. My power, or thus, enslavement of otherselves would come through my authority, my comfort, my sensuality. It was not proper enslavement, as it was in fact designed only to extract the negativity from each, which in fact serves the One by allowing its souls to be lightened and be ready to pursue further learning. Needless to say, it was a rather comfortable set up for myself, and I had become so intertwined with the mind of the One that I had no longer the external view on myself by which I could examine my situation. Now, here I am, looking at the source of my work, and I am disheartened. What have I been doing in such comfort, reaping the suffering of others? Although it is necessary work, after being in this realm the prior existence leaves a bitter taste in my heart. I realized, all at once, that I was ready to move on, to explore new types of force and concepts. So, in the same way I am here also looking at a potential... heir, you could say. (Interestingly there has been frequent occurrence of a story theme in my life whereby the Grim Reaper is choosing and training the next in the line, very peculiar the synchronicity.)

I admit, at the time I was terrified of the forgetting, did I really want to give up my perfect existence? I had felt so useful, although now I'm realizing more and more its transience. You could see me as one Death coming to learn the Dance of Life. I had mastered Death, or transformation, and felt near infinite with my outreach, yet over time I had lost the taste of the human experience. I began to lose my compassion as I encountered so many souls which were experiencing such pain, and knowing it was all a game I began to question the moral nature of the whole Death situation. Realize that our current nature of Death is due to the veil, that Death is a mystery because of this fact, and now in this time of the transition the veil is going to be lifted! Ah, this is the moment of glory I have been waiting for! This time is not only a time of the lifting of the veil, but also a time of the absolute transformation of Life.

To be sure, earlier in my incarnation I felt the only way to deal with the suffering here was with more death, as per my nature. I originally, at the outset, had perhaps endeavored to destroy the world, and frankly it is still within my capacity to do so if I wished to go through with the movements. However, my pre-incarnational plan was set up in this way so that I may begin to appreciate my other-selves, and begin to see in them the same Love I had always been trying to present. For the first time in my existence, my long existence, I was in a situation where I absolutely had to accept help from other-selves. I have removed all of my distortions of power in this incarnation with the exception of my memory, my great Art. For the first time, I am seeing it as desirable to be with other people for an extended period of time. By all means I would meet and see each and every single soul that left incarnation from my position before, but it was short, temporary, and bittersweet. In truth, I was absolutely alone, having opened myself solely to the One.

So, here I am, more alive and full of love than ever, and now able to balance myself and fully understand true compassion which encompasses the self. As strange as it may seem, in this life my service to others is learning to be of service to myself. I came in to this life being absolutely pre-disposed to service to others, I was in the field of martyrdom. For a long time I proclaimed myself as nothing but a tool, a servant for all. However now I have realized that this kind of slavery is just as equally a trap as slavery from another, and that in truth service must be a balanced affair, thus I am learning.

Am I a negative wanderer? Well, that depends on where you're looking from. Do I stem from a negative source? Yes, this is so. However, this life I am living in itself is a symbol, an allegory, to my transformation in to a new state. So, my friend, after all this, I hope that I am no longer going to restrict myself to loneliness, I hope I will learn the value and enjoyment of other-selves, most in particular that they may also have a chance to give Love to me. Except this time, I will accept it with gratitude and humility, rather than reject it. I've realized that it is greedy to keep the power of giving Love for yourself, to accept no others the beautiful opportunity to Love you, and so I am attempting to correct this perception.

As I mentioned, there is an Azrael social memory complex, but I do not stem from it, and this is because it is in this life that it shall be created. That is the mark of the transition, the ability to form social memory complexes, but this time I will not be founded on negativity! What a glorious change of heart, no?

Holy ****

:idea:

[Unbound]

Aha It seems incredulous to me as I read it again now, did those words come from me? This human being sitting here? When I am writing many of my posts I am simply writing as it comes to my mind and when I read it afterwards it seems other than me, or rather, a higher extension of myself. I am present and conscious for it all, but my mind just gains a different sort of feel when I apply myself to certain sections of the overall personality of which I am a part of.

[Crown]

If what you say is true, then why would Ra only mention this fact about him?

"the one known as Muhammed delivered the peoples into a more intelligible distortion of mind/body/spirit relationships."

notice that how it doesnt say positive, but 'intelligible distortion' of mind/body/spirit relationships. islam is actually quite straightforward - there is the god, mohammad is its last and foremost prophet, and everything is under mohammad in importance (in creation). also, everyone has to abide the rules 'god' gave mohammad, manifesting as koran as his material, and then mohammad's sayings (hadith) and then mohammad's life.

also, constantly unity of everything and 'god' is reiterated - there is a concept of 'one', however, this concept seems to be manifesting only in mohammad's allah and its described properties, and only after mohammad (everything comes after him in importance).

it seems shaped to manifest oneness/unity in the understanding/persona/whatever of mohammad. so, he seems basically to be a 6th density wanderer trying to manifest unity/oneness of everything in his own persona.

And how could you say "judging from his material"? The material being the Quran. Its full of positive teachings. One would asume that it has some parts of it that are polluted just as any other holy book. But clearly, the essence of the Quran is positive.

i would like to see those positive teachings myself. i see people mentioning such 'positive' nature of islam and koran in random discussions around the net, however yet, as for someone who have studied koran for a long time, i have yet to see them.

there is all kinds of nonpositive information ranging from how to divide women as war loot and mohammad's share from war loot in koran, to how the unbelievers should be ambushed and killed, how women are of lowlier nature than men, why and how the muslims should engage in jihad until all other religions are either killed or subdued (signified by paying tribute).

koran is actually not a spiritual or religious book. it is basically a constitution which includes all kinds of things ranging from the above to how to eat, live and so on.

And "Judging from his life"? Can you bring any examples?

i can bring endless examples, and you wouldnt like any of them. beni qurayza tribe and what happened to them, is one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

that wasnt an exception.

"Everyone has to abide the rules" Is totally wrong. It is clearly mentioned in the Quran that you would only be a believer if you choose to do so. Nothing is forced upon no one. And also, Notice how ti does not say negative either.

"there is a concept of 'one', however, this concept seems to be manifesting only in mohammad's allah"

- One of the msot basic aspects of Islam is Tawhid allah. Or tawhid al rab, or simply wahed allah. It means to make god as one. Thats unity in my opinion. And no, mohhamad is not invloved in this case.

"it seems shaped to manifest oneness/unity in the understanding/persona/whatever of mohammad. so, he seems basically to be a 6th density wanderer trying to manifest unity/oneness of everything in his own persona"

- Even though this legitemately and relevantly could be true, but i think more in the way of a distorted understanding, and not an attempt of manifestation. The prophet was contacted by a being of light. The human prophet precieved information and expressed it in a way. It is far from what the original channel attempted to descrbe just because information pollution is always there.

"i would like to see those positive teachings myself. i see people mentioning such 'positive' nature of islam and koran in random discussions around the net, however yet, as for someone who have studied koran for a long time, i have yet to see them."

- The exact opposite. People like you, randomly throw around on the net the "Negativity" of Quran. However, these claims are based on disinformation and rumors. Yes the Quran has "primitive" principles, but suiteable to a certain time period. And by all means, positive. As mentioned, polluted information exists in this holy book, but in no way, defines it.

"there is all kinds of nonpositive information ranging from how to divide women as war loot and mohammad's share from war loot in koran, to how the unbelievers should be ambushed and killed, how women are of lowlier nature than men, why and how the muslims should engage in jihad until all other religions are either killed or subdued (signified by paying tribute)."

- I am sorry but alot of this information is incorrect. I am curious as to where have you studied the Quran, and who was your teacher, if you had any.

"koran is actually not a spiritual or religious book. it is basically a constitution which includes all kinds of things ranging from the above to how to eat, live and so on."

- disagreed. The Quran is also and above all, a spirtual religious book.

"i can bring endless examples, and you wouldnt like any of them. beni qurayza tribe and what happened to them, is one."

- First of all, linking wikipedia is not really informative in my opinion. Besides, these are stories of human beings in action. Not the words of any being or entity. Actions that were suiteable to a certain time period in history. Actions which are easily understandable when looking at the specific time frame. By the time these events where occuring, people were commiting much more bizzare acts all over the globe. It was a part of how our conciousness worked.




If you actually want to quote specific parts of the Quran and prove your claims, then please go ahead. I will be more than happy to try and offer you different explanations of the text.

[3DMonkey]

I'm seeing that all religions are to join the One, and the basis of this is the One inside us. Joining our Self to be One. This is all derived from the Archetypical Mind. The mind that we all share, in general, creates our world the same way.

All mystery, myth, stories, religion all describe how to reconnect our 'physical' self with our 'spiritual' self. These together become the 'One'.

If there is an actual shift in the Mind, then, technically, the world will change.

Again, this concept was created using the standard Arch. Mind of today. So...." "

[Unbound]

I think these kinds of arguments are exactly why Ra left it unanswered.

[spero]

i have referenced the below before but for those curious about Mohammed, the following Q'uo session describes him as a sixth-density wander working with entities of his own kind. whether he is a positive or negative sixth density wanderer is not explicity mentioned and Q'uo is vague on commenting on the positive-negative ratio of his work, but does concur that orion influence is possible as with any contact.

if nothing else, it is interesting to note that Mohammed was a sixth-density wanderer.

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._1217.aspx

P: Thank you. That was reassuring. My questions concern the history of Islam. Would you be able to comment on the origin of the Koran?

I am Q’uo, and am aware of your query, my sister. We are working with this instrument to give it the image of the answer, shall we say. The means of transmission and point of origin of this holy work is the inspiration that the one known as Mohammed was able to open itself to receive at various times during its life experience which it had offered to the one Creator as a gift or glorification, for this entity had many experiences of the unity of all things and was desirous in a great extent to bring back this inspiration that those of its peoples might also be blessed as it was blessed.
Thus, the information that has been gathered in this holy work was that which was divinely inspired and though difficult to describe in the languages of the time, yet this entity set itself to this purpose and was single-minded in its pursuit of this mission, shall we say.
Is there a further query, my sister?

P: Yes. In the book itself it says Mohammed was inspired and that the message came through Gabriel, that the work itself is the word of God Itself and was absolute and had no flaw. Could you tell me the density of Gabriel and the identity of Gabriel? And what do they mean really when they say this is the word of God and is absolute?

I am Q’uo, and am aware of your query, my sister. We will attempt to respond. The entity, Gabriel, was one of a number of entities that assisted in this transmission, being the focus of the effort, was one which worked with the entity known as Mohammed as this entity had dedicated its life purpose previous to the incarnation to working with those of its own kind, shall we say. Thus, the effort was put forth by those of the density of love and light in balance, that being six, working with those of the same vibratory level who had taken incarnation for the purpose of such a mission.
Is there a further query, my sister?

P: When you say those of the same vibratory level do you mean then that Mohammed was a sixth-density entity who incarnated as a third-density entity?

I am Q’uo, and this is correct, my sister.
Is there a further query?

P: Could you comment on the amount of negative or Orion influence in the book itself?

I am Q’uo, and am aware of your query, my sister. As with all such efforts of light and service to others the power of the polarity puts forth an attraction and is, shall we say, noticed by those in the vicinity. There is often notice by those of the so-called Orion Empire that they be able to utilize the balancing efforts of this planet’s quarantine system to offer some form of their own information wherever possible and to make this offering to appear as the same as that which first attracted their notice.
Thus, with all such efforts there is some infiltration of the signal with other information at odd moments or targets of opportunity that exist in all entities that are mortal. Thus, all such inspirational information has this feature whereby there is attracted to it the balancing efforts by those of the so-called loyal opposition.
Is there a further query, my sister?

P: I wonder where in the Koran it says that the book is the absolute truth and should be followed absolutely instead of giving a way for self-transcendence to the work. I wonder if that part particularly is Orion work?

I am Q’uo, and am aware of your query, my sister. But with this query we find that the response lies beyond the Law of Confusion, for it is at this point that all entities must look at that which is offered and choose for the self that which is at the heart of the work.
Is there a further query, my sister?

P: After Mohammed received the inspirations and came to be of service and delivered the Koran and left the work and left the incarnation would you be able to estimate the balance in the struggle between light forces and the dark, shall we say? In the history of the development of Islam is there a way of saying which force had the upper hand or currently would it be possible for you to estimate the power of the two forces? Which is stronger?

I am Q’uo, and am aware of your query, my sister. And again we find a difficulty in a specific response for this points to the heart of the matter of discrimination and we can only suggest that when even the most holy and pure work of divine inspiration falls to the mortals below there will be human error entered at some point, whether it be by chance or by design, as the various levels of relationship and interrelationship work to bring entities with personal incarnational lessons into touch with that which is divine. Thus, there is opportunity for distortion and the use of the inspiration for purposes other than the original intentions. As the cycles of human reincarnation occur from time to time and culture to culture there are overriding issues of relationships of groups and their purpose for incarnation. Thus, there is always the opportunity for interpretation.
Is there a further query, my sister?

[unity100]

"Everyone has to abide the rules" Is totally wrong. It is clearly mentioned in the Quran that you would only be a believer if you choose to do so.

i am wondering how extensively you have read koran or read it at all.

there is no such thing. it is explicitly ordered for muslims to wage war on nonbelievers :

in Maide/5/35, god orders muslims to go to jihad for salvation.

in Tevbe/9/5, he orders muslims to hide and wait the people who worship idols, and kill them wherever they can find them, jail them, and let them go free if they convert and do daily prayers and give tithe. and than says "the truth is god forgives and he has mercy". very ironic, these two concepts being in the same lines.

in Tevbe/9/29 god orders muslims to fight the other major religions (those who are said to receive books by islam - judaism, christianity) until they submit and pay tithe.

In Tevbe/9/41 god orders every one, whether they want it or not to go to jihad in the name of allah and make war, at expense of their lives and their property.

in Tevbe/9/73 he orders his prophet to make war on the 'deniers' and be harsh against them.

In Tevbe/9/113 he orders it is not acceptable to bless/pray for those who worship idols, even if they are close relatives.

notice - in islam, these are god's words. nothing can precede them. the only proposition that is in line with what you are claiming is found in one of mohammad's hadith, boiling down to a meaning of 'your religion onto you, my religion onto me'. however, since koran precedes mohammad too, this hadith cant be used to argue against what koran orders above.

the highest position a non believer can hold, is a nonbeliever that is conquered and subdued, which is signified by paying tithe. and in that stage, nonbelievers are in a discriminated status.

- One of the msot basic aspects of Islam is Tawhid allah. Or tawhid al rab, or simply wahed allah. It means to make god as one. Thats unity in my opinion. And no, mohhamad is not invloved in this case.

just saying 'everything is one' does not describe the nature of a philosophy/belief. 6d negative entities think that everything is one too. yet, it has to be a one under their control.

and in islam, as evidenced with the description of events in mohammad's ascent to heaven, mohammad is depicted as the entity that is highest than anything else.

moreover, in quran, god says to mohammad that if it wasnt for him, he wouldnt have created anything. (ie, everything was created for his sake).

mohammad is, apparently involved in this case.

- Even though this legitemately and relevantly could be true, but i think more in the way of a distorted understanding, and not an attempt of manifestation. The prophet was contacted by a being of light. The human prophet precieved information and expressed it in a way. It is far from what the original channel attempted to descrbe just because information pollution is always there.

we only have mohammad's descriptions and what he says for the above. it is impossible to discern the nature of that initial contact. it may or may not have been an positive entity. it is also questionable that there may have been a contact. mohammad was illiterate, but he spent a lot of time in the ancient monasteries in jordan, palestine and other places in caanan during his trade trips to syria. and learned a lot of things from the monks while staying in those places. curiously, the first thing muslim invaders did in a place they invaded was to burn books, destroy anything reminiscent from the past. a lot of very ancient and secretive knowledge has been lost in caanan and egypt in this way.

even if the contact was real and was not negative at the start, it apparently turned negative later, with the unquestionably negative orders given in entirety of koran.

- The exact opposite. People like you, randomly throw around on the net the "Negativity" of Quran. However, these claims are based on disinformation and rumors. Yes the Quran has "primitive" principles, but suiteable to a certain time period. And by all means, positive. As mentioned, polluted information exists in this holy book, but in no way, defines it.

- I am sorry but alot of this information is incorrect. I am curious as to where have you studied the Quran, and who was your teacher, if you had any.

i dont think there is anything random in the orders of the god that i have included in the above excerpts. since you are able to argue like in the above block, it makes me think that you have never in your life sat and read koran attentively.

i am going to repost these, since it seems that it would help you a lot.

in Maide/5/35, god orders muslims to go to jihad for salvation.

in Tevbe/9/5, he orders muslims to hide and wait the people who worship idols, and kill them wherever they can find them, jail them, and let them go free if they convert and do daily prayers and give tithe. and than says "the truth is god forgives and he has mercy". very ironic, these two concepts being in the same lines.

in Tevbe/9/29 god orders muslims to fight the other major religions (those who are said to receive books by islam - judaism, christianity) until they submit and pay tithe.

In Tevbe/9/41 god orders every one, whether they want it or not to go to jihad in the name of allah and make war, at expense of their lives and their property.

in Tevbe/9/73 he orders his prophet to make war on the 'deniers' and be harsh against them.

In Tevbe/9/113 he orders it is not acceptable to bless/pray for those who worship idols, even if they are close relatives.

- disagreed. The Quran is also and above all, a spirtual religious book.

your disagreement falls short in that koran not only includes how to divorce, how to divide plunder, how to treat women, but also all kinds of behavioral orders on how to treat other people, ranging from muslims to minorities. the levels of nonbelievers are sharply drawn, from idol worshipper to book religion believer.

there is nothing spiritual in these. it is directly a codification of laws. and most of those laws, apparently are based on traditions and laws of quraysh tribe, the tribe in mecca before and in mohammad's time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quraysh_%28tribe%29

- First of all, linking wikipedia is not really informative in my opinion. .

the references are at the bottom of wikipedia. you can verify all references. in addition, no historical or present muslim scholar or historian has any objection as to what has been done to that tribe.

Besides, these are stories of human beings in action. Not the words of any being or entity. Actions that were suiteable to a certain time period in history. Actions which are easily understandable when looking at the specific time frame. By the time these events where occuring, people were commiting much more bizzare acts all over the globe. It was a part of how our conciousness worked

quite. human beings in action. and their actions express their orientation.

i would like to remind you that, treatment of beni quraiza tribe was not the first or last time something like this happened.

If you actually want to quote specific parts of the Quran and prove your claims, then please go ahead. I will be more than happy to try and offer you different explanations of the text.

it is appalling that you can actually say the above, in the wake of what i have shared. anyone who had studied koran or claiming to be a muslim, should have known those verses by memory.

in addition, - no, you cant interpret koran :

- koran says its god's unchanged word. this makes it divine and unquestionable in regard to accuracy according to koran.
- koran also says it is a book that is 'as clear as the light of day', and both 'the shepherd and the scholar' would be able to understand it. this totally eliminates any kind of 'interpretation' attempt. if someone reads it, s/he understands it, period. no interpretation or explanation can be claimed to be necessary, for doing so contradicts koran in regard to its claim to clarity, and therefore it contradicts god, which is told to be koran's author.

therefore simply, it is as written in koran if koran says do something, it means it. not that there could be anything to be explained about 'lying in wait to ambush' unbelievers and killing them on sight either ...

such 'interpretation' attempts to reinterpret koran in order to remove the aggressive aspect was tried in egypt by various islam scholars and activists. the result had been that some had been killed, some had to flee the country.

[Crown]

Yes, i have read parts of the Quran many times. And no im not a muslim. But i still know a thing or two.

First, there is no sura called "Tevbe". I think you mean "Tawbah" or "Tobah" which means repentance. A reget for a past action.

I would also like to start with the fact that yes, you can interpret Quran because evidently there are numerous explanations of the text.



It is true that the Quran has all of those rules that are supposed to guide a person in his daily life. Remember that these rules were sent to human beings in the desert more than a thousand years ago. Back then, people pillaged, raped, killed and commited crazy deeds like slavery and worst. These sort of actions are adressed in the Quran, and especially in "Al-Tawbah" Sura simply for a cause of instilling some order into the minds of men.

When this holy book came and told people that there is order even in what you may portray as chaos, it was a revolutionary idea. Instead of people waging wars and raids randomly, motivated and driven by loot and power only, a form of order came in to try and lessen the distortion of the people at those times in that area and region.


I fully understand why the Quran would tell us how to divide slaves and loot between each other. I can also fully understand why the Quran sets and defines the Women's value and place in society. At those times, like today, the distortion of female inferiority existed, and male superiority too. When you put an outline to those in a way that is no longer as offensive and cruel as before, then yes, it is portrayed as positive.


There is no argue as to whether negative influence was present in the channeling / making up of the Quran. Because it is evidently there. But, there is a point i tend to argue about and that is whether the Quran has positive teachings or not. And it does.


Al Tawbah 9:5
"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."


Eeven though the relationship between a Muslim believer and a polytheist is further explained in earlier ayat and parts of the Quran. This is a good example that you decided to use. It is not a secret that nonbelievers are wrongdoers in the Quran, but if they should repent, then the outcome is totally positive. Clearly, there was a need, in the opinion of the channeling entity, for the instillation of order in the chaotic desert. People who were polytheists back then, were far away from even getting close to acknowledge the Law of One. Islam, is just one step which could be final also, towards the one.


I know that alot of muslims support this method of thought whch you emphasize on, that the Quran is god's unchanged words and that everythign written in it, is 100% true and relevant. I also know alot of muslims who think differently. I am not inclined and limited to believe in a manner and way that seem primitive to me. Just as the old testament, i know that its full of horror and negativity, but i also know that it is full of positive teachings too.


All the parts that you quoted are totally positive in my opinion. If again, you look at the time period of which they were more relevant to.



No matter what, the Quran is full of positive teachings. I can provide examples perhaps later or in another thread.


Oh and i do want to note something that you have opened my eyes to. It is totally probable that Mohammad was a negative 6d wanderer as you said and which was the cause of our arguement. But then we went on to argue about the positivity of the holy book itself. I would have attempted to "defend" any other teaching that was positive in my opinion. I dont take the Quran lightly. In my opinion, the Quran has EVERYTHING in it. And i do mean everything. Even explanations about planes of existance and extraterrestrial life. Light frequencies, astral entities, social and philosophical ideas and also, society rules that are the "negative" part of the Quran which is not negative in my opinion if you consider the time frame.





I would also like to note that disinformation about "Jihad" is much too common.



Thank you.

[Tenet Nosce]

It seems to me that whenever a 6D Wanderer gets involved in earthly affairs in a public way, their efforts eventually become turned to the exact opposite of their intention. Especially so when it comes to telling others how to live. IMO, a 6D Wanderer would do well to exercise more discretion in their methods.

[unity100]

Yes, i have read parts of the Quran many times. And no im not a muslim. But i still know a thing or two.

only parts of the quran wont suffice. even if you attempt to read entirety of koran slowly, by cross referencing the surah with hadith, and what was happening at the time when that surah was supposedly sent by god, it still wont suffice in preventing the negative orders and nature of the material thats in there.

that is despite there is no need to do as such - koran says it is sufficient by itself.

First, there is no sura called "Tevbe". I think you mean "Tawbah" or "Tobah" which means repentance. A reget for a past action.

yes, there is a surah called tevbe. it is its name in turkish.

I would also like to start with the fact that yes, you can interpret Quran because evidently there are numerous explanations of the text.

no you cannot interpret koran. period. it goes against what koran itself says. whomever reads it, and understands something, is true. noone else can interpret anything over that person's own understanding. so, if someone read and saw that god orders him to kill christians and jews, he is right.

'numerous explanations of the text' all are there because of various islamic scholars coming and going over the course of history and doing scholarly work on it. however, this was something that should never have happened, since koran says there can be nothing in between god and the subject, eliminating the means and potentials for any kind of priest caste in the religion.

however as a result of the traditions and regional culture, inevitably a caste of imams have been produced in islam too.

It is true that the Quran has all of those rules that are supposed to guide a person in his daily life. Remember that these rules were sent to human beings in the desert more than a thousand years ago. Back then, people pillaged, raped, killed and commited crazy deeds like slavery and worst. These sort of actions are adressed in the Quran, and especially in "Al-Tawbah" Sura simply for a cause of instilling some order into the minds of men.

When this holy book came and told people that there is order even in what you may portray as chaos, it was a revolutionary idea. Instead of people waging wars and raids randomly, motivated and driven by loot and power only, a form of order came in to try and lessen the distortion of the people at those times in that area and region.

I fully understand why the Quran would tell us how to divide slaves and loot between each other. I can also fully understand why the Quran sets and defines the Women's value and place in society. At those times, like today, the distortion of female inferiority existed, and male superiority too. When you put an outline to those in a way that is no longer as offensive and cruel as before, then yes, it is portrayed as positive.

There is no argue as to whether negative influence was present in the channeling / making up of the Quran. Because it is evidently there. But, there is a point i tend to argue about and that is whether the Quran has positive teachings or not. And it does.

yees. an order was needed for raping and pillaging and distribution of loot. that is something quite positive.

are you aware that you are basically appreciating and rationalizing institutionalization of negative behavior as positive ?

so, you are basically saying that there was too much negative behaviors in an environment of chaos, and koran, whatever its source was, brought an order to that chaos.

that is what 5th d negative entities do -> bring order to the undisciplined, wanton negativity of 4d negative. in case you remember, ra has told that 5d negative entities see the universe as something that is to be put in order.

Al Tawbah 9:5
"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Eeven though the relationship between a Muslim believer and a polytheist is further explained in earlier ayat and parts of the Quran. This is a good example that you decided to use. It is not a secret that nonbelievers are wrongdoers in the Quran, but if they should repent, then the outcome is totally positive. Clearly, there was a need, in the opinion of the channeling entity, for the instillation of order in the chaotic desert. People who were polytheists back then, were far away from even getting close to acknowledge the Law of One. Islam, is just one step which could be final also, towards the one.

so you are basically portraying killing of people who were thought to be 'wrongdoers' as something positive.

on top of that, you are accepting and rationalizing killing of people, who believe in polytheism, and not the 'one'.

instead of acceptance of those entities, the 'order' that is needed takes the extreme of killing them ?

I know that alot of muslims support this method of thought whch you emphasize on, that the Quran is god's unchanged words and that everythign written in it, is 100% true and relevant. I also know alot of muslims who think differently. I am not inclined and limited to believe in a manner and way that seem primitive to me. Just as the old testament, i know that its full of horror and negativity, but i also know that it is full of positive teachings too.

those muslims who dont think 100% of koran is true wont be able to voice their opinion in any muslim country.

moreover, what they say contradicts koran itself. it says its unchanged, and the word of god.

again, i would like to see that part 'full of positive teachings', if you dont mind speaking about. i have read koran in the manner i described above 4 times, yet, i havent seen any 'positivity' in it. if you are talking about how 'there is one' being a positive thing, the mention of that doesnt make any part of koran positive.

All the parts that you quoted are totally positive in my opinion. If again, you look at the time period of which they were more relevant to.

excuse me, you are proposing that institutionalization of pillage, slaughter, suppression of entities who believe other religions under pain of death, as positive.

you cant. there is nothing positive about 'putting an order' to pillage, slaughter, suppression. regardless of the time and circumstances it happens, it is institutionalization of such acts.

No matter what, the Quran is full of positive teachings. I can provide examples perhaps later or in another thread.

please do. it would be good to have it in this thread, since its relevant to the topic extensively.

Oh and i do want to note something that you have opened my eyes to. It is totally probable that Mohammad was a negative 6d wanderer as you said and which was the cause of our arguement.
But then we went on to argue about the positivity of the holy book itself. I would have attempted to "defend" any other teaching that was positive in my opinion. I dont take the Quran lightly. In my opinion, the Quran has EVERYTHING in it. And i do mean everything. Even explanations about planes of existance and extraterrestrial life. Light frequencies, astral entities, social and philosophical ideas and also, society rules that are the "negative" part of the Quran which is not negative in my opinion if you consider the time frame.

excuse me but you are teaching a former muslim who had studied koran extensively.

all the propositions and arguments you have used up to this point are the arguments which islamists use to defend islam or koran here.

all the stuff that you think that is there in koran, are taken from occult egyptian, judaic and christian sources that were kept in monasteries in caanan for thousands of years. this includes the tree of life (the tree which mohammad passes as last before reaching 'god') to other paranormal teachings that go back to egypt.

and again, there can be no justification of institutionalization of murder, slaughter, pillage, looting and suppression to make them positive. it is just an institutionalization of these negative acts, just in the manner in which a negative 5d entity would do.

I would also like to note that disinformation about "Jihad" is much too common.

so is the disinformation against 'disinformation' about jihad.

however, koran's god openly ordering muslims to make war against jews, christians is not something that is open to discussion. if you take koran seriously, it is as clear as day, it is god's own word, and it is directly understandable. and it is ordering muslims to wage constant war against these groups until they are either converted or subdued.

this is negative.

[3DMonkey]

Yeah, isn't the discretion on the listener? I mean, they wanna teach something. Short of doing nothing, what amount of discretion doesn't effect others? Discretion becomes dis-creation ;-) hardy har.

[Crown]

Yes, even if a thing migt be portrayed as negative to an entity, it does not mean that the vibration of the act itself is not positive or at the least, balancing. Balance is positive in my opinion, even if it balances te positive polarity down a bit.

I dont view the Quran as one defenite explanation and truth. And i dont care if you cant voice these opinions in any muslim country because tat does not mean anything. Today, the biggest and "most important" muslim country, Saudia, is lthe worst country ever, ethically.

So now ou are saying that Mohammad is a 5d negative wanderer?

I have to go now, but yes, i will continue this discussion by bringing examples of the positive teachings of the Quran.

Peace.
I would like to repeat that yes, the Quran is an attempt of balance. It is positive in my opinion. If i'd go visit a planet where people randomly kill each other whenever they felt like it, i would try and discipline them into killing each other only like once in a while, and try to make rules for them to not kill children or pregnant women. That is balancing and it is positive in my opinion. Who said that the loss of a physical body is negative? I would say that it is, only if the entity commiting such an act, is thinking (vibrating) in a way that accomodates the act itself.

[unity100]

Yes, even if a thing migt be portrayed as negative to an entity, it does not mean that the vibration of the act itself is not positive or at the least, balancing. Balance is positive in my opinion, even if it balances te positive polarity down a bit.

according to what we have been given in the material we are studying as of now, these acts fall under the category of negative.

lawless pillaging and looting and suppression turning into organized, orderly pillaging, looting and repression does not constitute positive.

leave aside it is just further organization of these acts to be more efficient (unfortunately as evidenced by the conquests of islamic hordes following mohammad's era), foremost it is an acknowledgement and acceptance of those acts - practicing of negative acts are made the basis of the society, just in an orderly fashion. so, basically discriminating against other beliefs or people, forcing them to convert, invading them, pillaging them, enslaving them have been codified.

it is as negative as negative goes. just orderly negative. and that is not a 'good thing', if one looks from positive respect.

I dont view the Quran as one defenite explanation and truth. And i dont care if you cant voice these opinions in any muslim country because tat does not mean anything. Today, the biggest and "most important" muslim country, Saudia, is lthe worst country ever, ethically.

actually it means a lot. the only places in which you can voice these opinions are countries in which islam is in a small minority. even in the places islam is in noticeable minority, there is pressure from islamic circles in any form they can, from political pressure in mildest cases to death threats (and often following up of those threats) against anyone expressing such opinion.

this being consistent throughout societies basically says that the nature of the material is negative, and it is providing a good grounds for effecting negative behaviors and inspiration into the entities subscribing to it.

So now ou are saying that Mohammad is a 5d negative wanderer?

he was probably 6th. seeing creation as 'a place to be put into order' is a negative 5d trait. when the entity is in 6d, this wouldnt just go away, just like how wisdom doesnt go away when positive 5d entities go into positive 6d.

I have to go now, but yes, i will continue this discussion by bringing examples of the positive teachings of the Quran.

please, it shouldnt have been too hard.

I would like to repeat that yes, the Quran is an attempt of balance. It is positive in my opinion. If i'd go visit a planet where people randomly kill each other whenever they felt like it, i would try and discipline them into killing each other only like once in a while, and try to make rules for them to not kill children or pregnant women. That is balancing and it is positive in my opinion.

that is a negative 5d approach. making killing, enslavement orderly.

the positive approach would be to refuse enslavement or killing of other entities. i dont even know why i am having to give examples from this, but, here :

- patton wasnt able to qualify for harvest just because he kept on battling. leave aside institutionalizing that killing like you are proposing, he was supposed to totally refuse to kill. he didnt. he reincarnated.
- jeshosuah as a positive entity didnt even resist his murderers

Who said that the loss of a physical body is negative? I would say that it is, only if the entity commiting such an act, is thinking (vibrating) in a way that accomodates the act itself.

loss of physical body is not negative, institutionalizing entities killing each other for their own profit, is negative.

[Ankh]

in addition, - no, you cant interpret koran :

- koran says its god's unchanged word. this makes it divine and unquestionable in regard to accuracy according to koran.
- koran also says it is a book that is 'as clear as the light of day', and both 'the shepherd and the scholar' would be able to understand it. this totally eliminates any kind of 'interpretation' attempt. if someone reads it, s/he understands it, period. no interpretation or explanation can be claimed to be necessary, for doing so contradicts koran in regard to its claim to clarity, and therefore it contradicts god, which is told to be koran's author.

Could you please provide quotes from Quran where the above is stated?

(This is an extremely interesting discussion that you have here. I hope that you can both continue it, without getting too defensive/offensive/negative on each other. I am following it with interest.)

[3DMonkey]

17.2
....We cannot offer shortcuts to enlightenment. Enlightenment is, of the moment, an opening to intelligent infinity. It can only be accomplished by the self, for the self. Another self cannot teach/learn enlightenment, but only teach/learn information, inspiration, or a sharing of love, of mystery, of the unknown that makes the other-self reach out and begin the seeking process that ends in a moment, but who can know when an entity will open the gate to the present?

[unity100]

in addition, - no, you cant interpret koran :

- koran says its god's unchanged word. this makes it divine and unquestionable in regard to accuracy according to koran.
- koran also says it is a book that is 'as clear as the light of day', and both 'the shepherd and the scholar' would be able to understand it. this totally eliminates any kind of 'interpretation' attempt. if someone reads it, s/he understands it, period. no interpretation or explanation can be claimed to be necessary, for doing so contradicts koran in regard to its claim to clarity, and therefore it contradicts god, which is told to be koran's author.

Could you please provide quotes from Quran where the above is stated?

(This is an extremely interesting discussion that you have here. I hope that you can both continue it, without getting too defensive/offensive/negative on each other. I am following it with interest.)

16:103 -> quran is in clear arabic
2:286 -> on no soul god puts a burden greater than they can bear (including understanding his orders in koran)
34.3 , 10.61 depict koran as a clear book.

ironically, in his effort to make people understand that koran is not ambiguous, someone has done most of the work already at this address :

http://www.quranists.net/2011/04/21/the-...s-details/

some worth including are :

“Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, whose verses are made decisive, then are they made plain, from the Wise, All-aware.” (11:1)
“Ha Mim. By the evidence of the Book that makes things clear . Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you use your reason.” (43:1-3)
“Ha Mim! By the evidence of the Book that makes things clear. ” (44:1-2)
“We have made the revelations clear to you, if you will use your reason. ” (3:118)
“And indeed We have made the Qur’an easy for taking reminder, then is there anyone who will receive admonition?” (54:17)
“Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.” (29:51)

it goes on and on. add to that the constant repetitions and reiterations of the concept 'there can be nothing/noone in between subject and allah', 'allah being closer to you than your veins' etc.

of course, if you leave out the contradictions. koran, despite saying it is clear for everyone, proceeds to say that only allah can know mysteries in the book. then also proceeds to say men of wisdom would understand. 3 contradictions in one shot.

however, and maybe rather unfortunately, this is not enough to argue against koran being clear with its practical orders -> since these mysteries, as it seems, pertain to mystic and otherworldly stuff, not to stuff that involves what someone should or should not do in his/her life. and unfortunately, orders like jihad, suppression of 'infidels', killing of polytheists and so on, are included in those practical orders, along with how to eat, how to clean yourself, how to divorce and all that.

[StormShadow]

Not to throw gasoline on a brush fire, but you guys (Crown and Unity especially) should really check out the Oahspe book's angle on the semitic religions sometime. Brings a whole new perspective to the matter.

[Ankh]

however, and maybe rather unfortunately, this is not enough to argue against koran being clear with its practical orders -> since these mysteries, as it seems, pertain to mystic and otherworldly stuff, not to stuff that involves what someone should or should not do in his/her life. and unfortunately, orders like jihad, suppression of 'infidels', killing of polytheists and so on, are included in those practical orders, along with how to eat, how to clean yourself, how to divorce and all that.

This is the last piece in that link that you provided:

Thus it is by “Shoora”, i.e. mutual consultation that those matters are decided upon which are not given by the Qur’an but which necessitate the prevalent circumstances. However it should be kept in mind that such bye-laws are framed by the whole community, i.e. the organization of Believers and not by any particular individual. Shoora system is the responsibility of the whole Ummah, that under the light of the Qur’anic permanent values they will frame bye laws that are required for implementing the divine values according to the prevailing times and circumstances. These bye-laws are not permanent, but only the Book of Allah is, and changes can be made in these bye laws if the need arises. It is only the Qur’anic Laws that are immutable and timeless.

Do I understand it correct: "Shoora" are the laws that are made by Believers, or the community, and these are not equal to the so called "Qur'anic Laws", and can be changed? It is in Shoora where practical orders and 'how to live the life', like jihad, killing the polytheists and 'infidels', are stated?

What I found interesting in the Ra material is the Ra's choice of words mentioning Muhammed:

When this entity [Ikhnaton] was no longer in this density, again the polarized beliefs in the many gods came into their own and continued so until the one known as Muhammed delivered the peoples into a more intelligible distortion of mind/body/spirit relationships.

I am not that informed regarding relationships in Egypt and surroundings at that time, but if it is as you, Crown, saying:

Remember that these rules were sent to human beings in the desert more than a thousand years ago. Back then, people pillaged, raped, killed and commited crazy deeds like slavery and worst. These sort of actions are adressed in the Quran, and especially in "Al-Tawbah" Sura simply for a cause of instilling some order into the minds of men.

...then perhaps was the delivery of Muhammed's teachings in an alignment with the Law of One? From a 6D perspective it doesn't matter whether these teachings are of negative or positive nature, as long as they teach One-ness, and that is to stop killing, raping each other and similar; either it is done by order/control or love.

Crown, it would be interesting if you could provide positive teachings from the Quran.

[Tenet Nosce]

Yeah, isn't the discretion on the listener? I mean, they wanna teach something. Short of doing nothing, what amount of discretion doesn't effect others? Discretion becomes dis-creation ;-) hardy har.

There's always room for distortion. By discretion I don't necessarily mean withholding. I am referring to more subtle ways of speaking. Using metaphor, parable, or a double/triple/quadruple entendre so that the listener must look within to find the truth, rather than accepting it from without.

BTW, this is a fascinating discussion. Of all the world religions, I am the least proficient at Islam. I did once spend two weeks in Morocco, but the attitude seemed to be pretty lax.

So I will be mostly keeping my mouth shut. (If you can believe that!) But please, do continue...

[Crown]

I would like to start with what i believe to be a clarification:

16:101 - 16:103
"And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.


Say, [O Muhammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims."



And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language.

"

"This Quran is in a clear Arabic language" relates to the fact that "they" (the disbelievers) claim that the prophet is an inventor of lies and that he is taught by a human being only which speaks in a clear Arabic language. Not some "foreign tongue". This whole statment does not devalue the complexity of the way the Arabic language is used in the Quran. It is highly complex and contains many words that are unknown to the average person. An Arab person for an example, that did not study Arabic in a Muslim environment.




The Quranists link you posted may also suggest that there are lost texts from the original Quran...



When you look at the word "Islam" in Arabic, it could mean many things. In english it could be understood as obidience / submission / surrender which can be portrayed as negative somehow. But, in Arabic, these words are different. When you are in a state of Islam, you submit yourself to the one and the all, peacefully. Theoretically, you can be a "Muslim" without being a Muslim, if you take in account that Muslim comes from Islam and it means what it means. A person could achieve that state without being named a Muslim on paper or whatnot. Islam is also safety, security, peace, immunity and freedom from evil.




I feel that i delievered my point which is basically a new and more open minded way of looking at holy books including the Quran. Just like Ra says that you should only take what resonates with you, also in the Quran i believe is the case. Even if it is "clearly stated" otherwise. It is not clearly stated. The Quran is full of mysteries.





From Surat al Israa:

It is clearly an attempt of balance. Something in the style of the ten commandments but different. One could say that this text is somewhat negative, but i would say that it is positive in its attempt to correct things. Atleast, at the time period this text has been brought to us. Read the following with a state of mind that would suite the Ra material for an example. But the difference is that this text has secrets and mysteries in it and thats why every person could understand whatever he wants, positively. Understanding whatever you want does not mean that you changed th emeaning of the texts, but it means that you decide to understand in a way that is also relevant. Since Arabic is such a rich language and each word has more than one meaning.

And your Lord has decreed that you not worship except Him, and to parents, good treatment. Whether one or both of them reach old age [while] with you, say not to them [so much as], "uff," and do not repel them but speak to them a noble word.

And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, "My Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up [when I was] small."

Your Lord is most knowing of what is within yourselves. If you should be righteous [in intention] - then indeed He is ever, to the often returning [to Him], Forgiving.

And give the relative his right, and [also] the poor and the traveler, and do not spend wastefully.

Indeed, the wasteful are brothers of the devils, and ever has Satan been to his Lord ungrateful.

And if you [must] turn away from the needy awaiting mercy from your Lord which you expect, then speak to them a gentle word.

And do not make your hand [as] chained to your neck or extend it completely and [thereby] become blamed and insolvent.

Indeed, your Lord extends provision for whom He wills and restricts [it]. Indeed He is ever, concerning His servants, Acquainted and Seeing.

And do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Indeed, their killing is ever a great sin.

And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way.

And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported [by the law].

And do not approach the property of an orphan, except in the way that is best, until he reaches maturity. And fulfill [every] commitment. Indeed, the commitment is ever [that about which one will be] questioned.

And give full measure when you measure, and weigh with an even balance. That is the best [way] and best in result.

And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.

I am going to discuss this with a friend and hopefuly come back with some more to say.



Peace.

[Raman]

is there any religion on Earth not Orion based? Taoism, Buddhism and many 'aboriginal' ones not really religions...
Plus all forms of governments are based on Orion's influence...are they not? all forms of oppressive control ...capitalism is an Orion based economic system...and a good Ponzi scheme as well. Law of One is precisely an anti-religion/anti-egotistical (economic, psychological/sociological) philosophy. One cannot advance pass a certain point without considering this philosophy.

[3DMonkey]

is there any religion on Earth not Orion based? Taoism, Buddhism and many 'aboriginal' ones not really religions...
Plus all forms of governments are based on Orion's influence...are they not? all forms of oppressive control ...capitalism is an Orion based economic system...and a good Ponzi scheme as well. Law of One is precisely an anti-religion/anti-egotistical (economic, psychological/sociological) philosophy. One cannot advance pass a certain point without considering this philosophy.

I would not say based. No, not at all. I think all religions are based on pure concepts like the LOO. Every religion, of course, has Orion influence, and we can see that the Ra contact itself was not immune.

---

I think it is pretty obvious that all religion boils down to the same structures Ra gives accounts of.

[unity100]

"This Quran is in a clear Arabic language" relates to the fact that "they" (the disbelievers) claim that the prophet is an inventor of lies and that he is taught by a human being only which speaks in a clear Arabic language. Not some "foreign tongue". This whole statment does not devalue the complexity of the way the Arabic language is used in the Quran. It is highly complex and contains many words that are unknown to the average person. An Arab person for an example, that did not study Arabic in a Muslim environment.

It is clearly an attempt of balance. Something in the style of the ten commandments but different. One could say that this text is somewhat negative, but i would say that it is positive in its attempt to correct things. Atleast, at the time period this text has been brought to us. Read the following with a state of mind that would suite the Ra material for an example.

let me reiterate : the concept of love doesnt change with times. nor the concepts of positive or negative.

the 'those times' excuse is an excuse used to justify brutality and barbarism found in koran to mild muslims. and it is quite a lot used in countries that are predominantly muslim. and, with the societal mindset, this may excuse some of the extremities in koran from the perspective of current society.

however, while working on the Ra material and other similar info, we are not working in the societal mindset. we are working from a purer and base principle level which is valid everywhere. and from that, a negative act cannot be justified, rationalized or explained with the times.

But the difference is that this text has secrets and mysteries in it and thats why every person could understand whatever he wants, positively. Understanding whatever you want does not mean that you changed th emeaning of the texts, but it means that you decide to understand in a way that is also relevant. Since Arabic is such a rich language and each word has more than one meaning.

those secrets and mysteries (claim) is only valid for mystic concepts like god, time, afterlife, this and that. unfortunately, it cannot be applied to clear and plain orders regarding how to live life, and koran directly says that - it says everyone can understand what it orders about life, but the learned can understand what it says about mystic concepts.

[BrownEye]

judging from his life and his material, mohammad seems to be one.

I have personally checked into mohammed, then asked a lot of others to double check my findings. He was an actual prophet and the book does not portray his teachings very well.

I must also mention that I only checked into it looking first at "what" he had communicated with. My first thoughts were negative beings. It appears that my personal bias was completely off on this individual, and we are at the mercy of subsequent manipulations of what he attempted to teach.


Ok to give you guys a better understanding, think of what would happen after this group involved with the LOO had all passed away and the govt took possession of the transcripts, modified them, then released them back out into the public. This is what has happened to every religious text out there. It only takes a couple of generations to forget an incident even happened.

[3DMonkey]

He was an actual prophet and the book does not portray his teachings very well.

Aren't we all?

We can't even seem to communicate with one another in a way that the other portrays what we intend to convey. You even had to check with others to get some kind of self confirmation for your own findings. We don't really need governments to screw stuff up. We just need to be ourselves.

[unity100]

I have personally checked into mohammed, then asked a lot of others to double check my findings. He was an actual prophet and the book does not portray his teachings very well.

what kind of 'checking' are you speaking about here ?

Ok to give you guys a better understanding, think of what would happen after this group involved with the LOO had all passed away and the govt took possession of the transcripts, modified them, then released them back out into the public. This is what has happened to every religious text out there. It only takes a couple of generations to forget an incident even happened.

that is not applicable to the situation. a good amount of koran was recorded in his time, even if partially or memorized and transferred simultaneously to many people at the same time. moreover, we have records of his actions and deeds in his time. these coincide and overlap with what is in the koran. (as koran apparently orders).

[turtledude23]

I am ignoring my temptation to join the Islam discussion because I want to get back on topic.

I liked Zen's point about maybe that 6D entity in need of rebalancing refers in some part to 6D negative entities, I'd like to add that Ra says the vast majority of wanderers are 6D, so maybe the majority of wanderers on Earth, including the majority of people in this very thread, are entities who once followed the negative path.

Reading Chaotikmind's thread on misconceptions about STS (http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=89) made me see that STS wasn't as bad as I thought it was. A few times I contemplated switching paths and wondered what the difference between the 2 paths really is, and I couldn't really find any other than what someone's natural desires are in life. Several days ago I read these 2 "revelations" by supposed elite family insiders (http://www.scribd.com/doc/403303/The-Rev...sider-2005 and http://home.comcast.net/~readingnews/Hidden_Hand.html) and these 2 people sound pretty positive for supposed highly polarized STS entities. Perhaps this analogy could apply: one could walk up either side of a mountain to get to the top, the closer one gets to the top, the more similar the paths leading up to it become. We know this to be true of progression through densities (e.g. 6D polarities converging), perhaps its also true of a 3D entities quest for enlightenment.

I wonder sometimes (and perhaps Zen and Unity can empathize with me on this) why I'm so inclined to rational analysis of everything and having so little emotion, its very hard for me to feel compassion for someone in front of me, but easier to feel compassion for an idea (e.g. a genocide or famine) or an animal. These are traits which serve STS better. I wonder if I was of a negative path in previous incarnations.