Share your vision for the harvest

[native]

see, your perspective has not budget a bit right from the start, despite your responses changed with the information provided. the fixation of having a harvest that is prolonged so long to an extent that it would not matter in a person's lifetime in a direct, all encompassing and discomforting fashion always remains there and seeks a way out.

My perspective has not budged because my opinion is based on my understanding of time, the function/experience of the octave as a whole, and the comments Ra has made about the present moment. Which is why I refrain from the harvest discussion because this opinion doesn't directly translate to what you believe to be strictly defined. My opinion on the harvest of a year ago would agree with you, because I translated everything directly. I think there are underlying metaphysical concepts to discern. My metaphorical explanation before was vague, I'll explain it differently.

For instance, I believe all of our third density space/time moments to essentially be seen as one moment in time. The third density is an illusion of experience as time as we perceive it. All of third density is one moment, and indeed, in 17.2 they emphasize how third density is for the purpose of the choice of entering into the present. They also say the experience of third density is not necessary, which means it's irrelevant because the split of positive/negative created by third density all ends up as one in 6d and on up.

The octave experience is the working backwards towards a greater accumulation of present moments that at the octave level, all of which is experienced as one moment or a timeless state. Densities 1-2, 4-7 experience time differently. Ra says 3d is unnecessary, but a choice, and that third density has past/present/future, but the experience of it is an illusion. If I'm correct, the other densities are different in that there is only the present, as Ra says they don't experience history as we understand this concept, and that their learning remains graven in the present.

Third density is used for the purpose of interaction which creates a split so that the Creator may experience itself differently in this octave. This is how the choice is able to be made. But from the viewpoint of Ra, all of third density is one moment. That is why it is said that seeking begins and ends in a moment, and you step through the gate to the present. Because you're stepping out of this illusion into a density where once again the experience exists as a present moment state; as a 4d entity there is no ability to ever visit your 'historical' experience of 4d itself if I understand correctly..only those octave wanderers or whatever can do that. If you don't make that choice, you remain in the illusion.

Debating how long the harvest happens misses the point entirely. Because once you've made the choice in the incarnation, which is contact with intelligent infinity, you've been harvested in the metaphysical sense, you've made the choice and stepped through to the present metaphorically, and is why there have been examples given where entities were capable of harvesting themselves. 'The harvest is now' from this perspective makes more sense. The harvest mechanic approaches and is done in a moment, but we don't experience it that way. When Ra says the harvest will occur in 2011, they simply mean it approaches and is ready and waiting for the entities to die so that they may make the transition.

The timing of the cycles described in 9.3 is a rhythm. It seems to be an outward/inward pulse. If third density is but one moment metaphysically speaking, and the pulse is coming our way in space/time (inwards or outwards), those moments intersect and those that can be harvested, are. Confining the harvest to irrelevant conceptions of past/present/future misses the point. The harvest is but a moment, yet we don't experience it that way. Ra never explains it as such because through free will, we all interpret it differently. Ra gave us everything that was necessary to understand, but as a puzzle to figure out and accept in our own time. Understanding can't be taught, so they don't lay it out as such. They only answer what was asked of them.

All of this is intuitive perception informing intelligence. My perspective of a year ago changed when I grasped these intuitive concepts that Ra has imparted throughout the material, and is why the Law of One can't always be reduced to definitive statements in regards to harvest.

And yes, forget the 900 year period. I was theorizing out loud trying to translate the above as to why the harvest would occur over a period of time. It was simply a logical guess related to the life-span that the Logos allotted for incarnation.

[unity100]

Ra does not define these limits, so we have to define them ourselves. You define your's more logically than someone who would still be waiting after 50 years, but since the limits are not defined in the material, it is personal judgement. And it would simply be opinion to call that other person's judgement flawed.

ra defines these limits, sometimes explicitly by telling them, according to our timescale, because they are talking into OUR perception of time and measurements.

ranging from orion entry into planet being corrected after the mistake they made, to 100-700 years given for a transition, every time unit or scale or probability given were given in our scales. not theirs. they were not told to be left to the discretion of the reader either.

ra knows what they say when they speak about a 'year'. they are neither lacking capacity or non-caring as to miss mentioning a period of 'a few years'. wherever there is ANY kind of probability, they have mentioned it. there are no exceptions. this even goes for the case of potential futures for this planet. there were probabilities, and the most likely ones were talked about.

Do any of these rule out the possibility that harvest happens in a certain moment, but entities incarnated in space/time will not experience it until they die? I think I might have a different idea of what "gradualist" might mean than others. To me, a "gradual" harvest is one that simply allows for the entities within incarnation to die a natural death before they are harvested. So harvest happens, entities not in incarnation are harvested at that moment, and then as the entities within incarnation die, they are harvested...so it only lasts as long as it takes that generation to die. And it's possible that 3D entities were done incarnating years ago, meaning that the last of the pure 3D entities would be gone in less than a life-time. New entities being born would be harvested entities in 3D/4D bodies. That is as gradual as I see the material allowing for. Besides the "probability/possibility" thing, that is the ambiguity I talk about.

what's ruling out the possibility you speak of - apart from intelligent infinity contact not being something passing by unnoticed - is the choice of words used when referring to entities harvestable, and harvested in the past. as i mentioned there, word 'harvested' used for any entity which undergoes process of contacting intelligent infinity and dying and getting placed in a 4d continuum, or, any entity that dies, gets harvested through harvest method at the end of cycle, and then gets placed in a 4d continuum. for ALL others, 'harvestable' wordage was used. there is no exception to this as far as i read. even the entities which were harvestable at the end of 4d, are named as harvestables. when you queue the information that says 'all are harvested regardless of progress' at the end of 3rd cycle, the potential of not dying, leave aside getting affected by harvest is minimized. that is totally leaving out the fact that how to depopulate a 7 bil planet goes unexplained. these together made me change my perspective.

I'm talking about what happens at the "moment" of harvest, or when harvest "starts." Basically, the description Ra gives of harvest as the testing to see what incarnation nexus is appropriate. I'm not talking about the mechanisms surrounding harvest, I'm talking about harvest itself and how it is experienced, and whether it is experienced by people in incarnation.

what people experience, is a direct result of mechanism of harvest. it is not a subconscious event that goes unnoticed.

#1 for any entity to be deemed harvestable DURING incarnation, the entity needs to have made contact with intelligent infinity in its conscious self. it doesnt need to contact intelligent infinity by trying for it consciously - but the entity should be conscious when it made the contact.

#2 for any entity that is harvested, the entity is placed in violet body after death. im at a loss to see why some of you are missing to delve into these seemingly tiny bits of information despite they being critical and then getting sidetracked by other things. here :

there is great possibility in order for an entity to be placed in violet body, to have died. the entity will be placed in entirely violet body in order to access its harvestability. an entity in incarnation, with its 3d body active, and the proper astral counterpart active for that body, is very likely not to be able to be placed in violet body. therein lies the necessity of introducing the harvest 'anomaly' after death, so that entity is placed into violet body even before it is placed into indigo body.

as you can see - there is no way for harvest going unnoticed. you either contact intelligent infinity DURING incarnation in conscious state, which would be VERY consciousness-altering for you, leave aside noticeable, or, you die and get placed into violet body and then judged for harvestability. you would also notice if you have died, if i may add.

Wouldn't the discussion with Icaro only reveal Icaro's own biases? And isn't it presumptuous in either case to assume you can define these biases? I don't think one case can be applied to the whole other side of the debate.

the biases people hold towards this particular subject is common. they are not too hard to define. for a time i have been thinking of making a list of their elements, but havent gotten around to it yet.

What explicitly in Ra is denying the idea that this event that happens will force entities out of incarnation to be harvested? While the major event happens in a moment, and all the entities not in incarnation at that moment are harvested (which is what Ra explicitly stated), and then, as a result of that event, entities leaving incarnation will have the opportunity to be harvested.

"Regardless of progress" could easily just mean that the entities who have not polarized enough to experience the next density will also be harvested, because they wouldn't have been affected by the first two harvests. Basically it would mean "we take the 3D entities out of here because this ships turning 4D and they can't handle it." Do you feel the only option is that the 3D entities incarnate now are forced out of incarnation to be harvested?

leaving aside the important factors i explained in #1 and #2, harvest at the end of third cycle is an all encompassing event that is of cosmic level. it is not something that you can have 'options' with. 'all are harvested regardless of progress' is what was told. its not something that is left to choice of the entity. and if all are harvested in that fashion, #1 and #2 apply.

I figured the 3D entities who had not become harvestable would probably live the rest of their lives in a state of "depression," or scared...their ability to function waning with 3D vibes and 3D thoughtforms.

what you speak of would be more a reason to take them out of incarnation, because the situation you describe would destabilize their balance in ways that would require a few incarnations to rebalance. that, is basically torture.

I again thought the "fast" change was a part of the gradualist standpoint. Just not an instant change. 3D thoughtforms and ideas are purged from society in the next 100-700 years, which the 3Ders are long-gone by that point, because none were incarnating even before harvest actually happened. The dual-bodies are left to change society. That was my view of gradual.

and that gradualist perspective falls in many respects. the simplest being the population decline rate necessary to accomplish that. and for that they assume that 3d entities are being born into 3-4d bodies (which was a wrong misconception due to what i mentioned) in the rates of 60 million, along with harvested entities.

But Ra said starting with 3D bodies, gradually becoming 4D bodies. In a gradual standpoint, they could easily become more and more aware of the 4D plane as they evolve. The body evolution will likely mimic very closely the mind evolution of society. The 4D sphere could seamlessly replace the 3D sphere as seamlessly as bodies evolve. An entity at either end of the transition would notice a major difference.

Would the body be directly related to what the mind perceived? Perhaps an entity could perceive 4D just as well as their "more evolved" daughter, and with each generation 3D is shed a bit more as the societal mind perceives 4D more and more.

therein lies the problem - you are still seeing the dimension differences from a perspective of 'awareness'. it is not just 'awareness' anymore. these are real, physical stuff. there are real physical implementations of this change. ranging from genetics of the bodies to the dimensionality properties of 4d sphere. just 'becoming more aware' would not be the case. there will be physical issues. it is not something that is just relevant to mind or awareness. at one point, the genetic properties of a transitional body will be different than the already born generations before it to a major extent. ranging from their food necessities to how they react to various different substances eaten.

Why is depopulation necessary? If everyone born now is a 4D entity, and they continue to reproduce as they get older, the population could stay the same as 3Ders die naturally.

what you speak of would require 7 billion newly harvested 4d entities ready to inhabit THIS particular planet, being compatible with it. the numbers to supply this were examined, and it is improbable. moreover, a 3-4d body will live longer than a 3d body. since it shows more 4d properties. and even more 4d bodies would approximate the 4d lifespan even longer. so, entities born into these bodies will increasingly stay much longer than the normal lifespan of 70 years or so that is the standard with 3d. this means more numbers of 4d entities would be necessary to maintain this population.

What I mean is they're all harvested beings.

60 million harvested 4d entities per year is not a number that can be maintained with the best of harvest rates, and potential numbers of populations that can be fielded by planets, as i put forth with generously ranged calculations.

there is a point to incarnating in 3d as a senior 3d entity at this point in time - for the event of harvest. and it would continue until harvest is over. but, the 3d entities that were alive after end of harvest, would NOT stop reproducing by themselves. so then who would inhabit these 3d bodies being born, would become a matter in itself.

Questioner: I make the assumption that if maximum efficiency had been achieved in this 25,000 year period the entities would have polarized either toward service to self or toward service to others, one or the other. This would have made them harvestable at the end of that 25,000 year period in which case they would have had to move to another planet because this one would have been third density for 50,000 more years. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Let us untangle your assumption which is complex and correct in part.

The original desire is that entities seek and become one. If entities can do this in a moment, they may go forward in a moment, and, thus, were this to occur in a major cycle, indeed, the third-density planet would be vacated at the end of that cycle.

It is, however, more towards the median or mean, shall we say, of third-density developments throughout the one infinite universe that there be a small harvest after the first cycle; the remainder having significantly polarized, the second cycle having a much larger harvest; the remainder being even more significantly polarized, the third cycle culminating the process and the harvest being completed.

At the end of the third cycle, harvest is completed, and the 3D planet is vacated. Any questions?

thank you. this is another horizon widening q/a.

it basically says that EVEN if the entities get harvested en masse during a major cycle in a planet BEFORE last cycle, the planet is vacated at 3d. and, at the last cycle, planet, 'is vacated'.

Right, I just assume that since harvest is near, and the Earth is spiralling into 4D vibes and out of 3D vibes (although sustaining the 3D vibes through thoughtforms, etc), a 3D incarnation would not be appropriate. The dual-bodies will "purge" the 3D thoughtforms and vibrations to create a 4D society. It's a likely way I see the 100-700 year transition going.

I think it'll be appropriate for many 3D natives, as long as there's sufficient 3D catalyst. 3D vibes, of some degree, will likely be here for hundreds of years. I think the end of the cycle will probably see a significant decline, however, due to newly incarnating harvested entities molding the 'noosphere'. 4D is like a logos for 3D in that there is significant leadership or influence from the higher vibration.

you are talking about a population of 7 billion. the 4d harvested ones and wanderers arent a dent in this population. whatever present vibrations there is in the planet in 3d vibration, they would exhaust them speedily. the only measure to maintain 3d vibrations would be to reduce frequency of incoming 4d vibrations. or, use it off of 4d vibrations 3-4d harvested entities provide, by reducing those vibrations.

It just seems to be that it would be incredibly disabling for everybody to have a population where a small minority have access to "superhuman" powers, while the vast majority does not. I feel like a broken record, having stated something to this effect several times and nobody has really responded. But I think it is an important point which ties directly into the heart of the matter.

Unless the abilities are slowly learned and the potential for them is slowly gained. Also, why is that disabling? What do you think superhuman powers means? Are you thinking about something you saw in a movie or something less imaginary? We're told that there will seem to be a new breed of transitional bodied people. They still have to learn their abilities - that involves discipline and takes awhile, especially in a society that does not teach such things.

your approach to this is too simple and totally ignores the spiritual basics.

an entity which is subjected to higher vibrations than its mind/spirit can stand, gets imbalanced seriously. an entity which is subjected to higher vibrations than its body can handle, at the minimum develops health issues.

My perspective has not budged because my opinion is based on my understanding of time, the function/experience of the octave as a whole, and the comments Ra has made about the present moment. Which is why I refrain from the harvest discussion because this opinion doesn't directly translate to what you believe to be strictly defined. My opinion on the harvest of a year ago would agree with you, because I translated everything directly. I think there are underlying metaphysical concepts to discern. My metaphorical explanation before was vague, I'll explain it differently.

.........

all is well and ok but Ra was talking based on the perception and definition of time as it is known at large in our population. a year, is a year in that timescale. and whenever something erred in OUR count of time, they corrected it.

and things 'metaphorically' evaluating to aeons in time/space, may take just months in space/time.

there is not THAT much 'metaphorization' exists in our existence. things must work, incarnation must happen, death must come by, people must eat, digest, crap, breathe for existence to continue. there is nothing metaphorical about these.

same goes for harvest. regardless of what meanings and metaphors you load onto harvest, the process of harvest as defined as a mechanic at the start of creation of this octave, will act as it was planned to act.

It happens after they die....

On what basis is the claim being made that one must be disincarnate to be harvested?

for any entity labeled as harvested in the material, we see that the act of dying and getting placed in a 4d continuum has happened. for any entity labeled as 'harvestable' in the material, EVEN if they are dead as of present time, we see the word 'harvestable' used. rasputing and genghis and taras bulba are named as harvested. they are incarnated in different places, and even different continuums that are out of our continuum to a point that giving the exact locations of their placement in regard to astronomy/geometry is impossible, as we are told.

others, himmler and goering, are dead, but, they are named as possibly harvestable. meaning, they are waiting for harvest to happen.

150 2nd cycle harvestables are named as harvestables. not harvested. despite they died and reincarnated on this planet numerous times.

all these end up loading different meanings to harvestable, and harvested. one (former) is a status that is either gained by contacting infinite intelligence during incarnation consciously, or, having the violet balance that shows potential for harvestability if placed in violet body DURING harvest.

the other (latter) is a status that is gained by actually getting harvested and placed in a 4d continuum.

[βαθμιαίος]

Well if the population is not plummeting, then it is either staying the same or increasing.

Why do you say the number is not plummeting? What basis do we have to conclude anything about the number of entities that will be here in early fourth density?

So, based upon your reading of the Ra material, you believe that the evidence is exactly equally weighted on both sides?

I believe it's a puzzle that we haven't found the key to yet. I think it's one of those things that, after it happens, will be obvious -- "Oh, of course, that's what they meant." Beforehand, it's very hard to work the puzzle.

If it didn't matter, why would Ra have brought it up?

My point was in reference to the never-ending sudden vs gradual discussion. How does the fact that the harvest is going to be sudden (if that's what you believe) or gradual (if that's what you believe) change the way you live?

[native]

all is well and ok but Ra was talking based on the perception and definition of time as it is known at large in our population.

Well I'm glad we made some headway, and I understand your point on metaphor and it's differentiation as to the mechanics of harvest. Can you understand the communication process of trying to explain understandings to be fruitless a lot of the time? I rarely ever argue over peoples understandings on specific details. Because usually they're saying what they mean incorrectly, saying it in a different way that another misses the point entirely, or they simply aren't seeing what you see.

My complex explanation above clearly outlines how I fully understand the concepts of space/time and time/space, yet a few pages ago when pressed and flustered, I was unable to articulate it. Which is what I was saying earlier about accepting misunderstanding, and why we should reserve judgement.

[Ruth]

Icaro - I completely agree with you that individual understandings about various topics are not worth arguing about. We often try so very hard to "define" things and set limits on them so that we can cope. But it isn't necessary. All we need is love. Judgements and definitions are just an illusion. And whether we see it or not, or understand it or not, we are all connected, it is all now, and I can't really articulate what I'm thinking/seeing, but somehow I think you'll intuitively understand. Thank you for sticking with it, and also for moving your post.

[Tenet Nosce]

Why do you say the number is not plummeting? What basis do we have to conclude anything about the number of entities that will be here in early fourth density?

Eh? I'm lost now. Maybe we need to back up. Let's take this one step by step and see where the difference in understanding comes in. I am really trying to understand this perspective.

3D harvest is the process by which entities are separated from one another, based upon polarity, and placed into a new sphere of experience. The options are: repeat of 3D, 4D negative, or 4D positive.

Are we on the same page so far?

I believe it's a puzzle that we haven't found the key to yet. I think it's one of those things that, after it happens, will be obvious -- "Oh, of course, that's what they meant." Beforehand, it's very hard to work the puzzle.

Well, OK that is fine and maybe even true. However, you are an intelligent person with considerable time spent studying the material. So you are certainly qualified to offer an opinion as to which view you think is best supported by the evidence. Of course, you are free not to do so. But you didn't really answer the question directly even if to state that you do not want to answer it.

Secondly... you say after it happens, it will be obvious. So, am I correct in understanding you to mean that if harvest happened tomorrow, all of us here in this forum would probably agree that "it happened"? Because so far what I have seen from those forwarding gradualism is the idea that it will pass "unnoticed" and that only after we die would we be able to look back and say, "Ah yes, harvest clearly happened/started on 02 September 2011."

My point was in reference to the never-ending sudden vs gradual discussion. How does the fact that the harvest is going to be sudden (if that's what you believe) or gradual (if that's what you believe) change the way you live?

A solid question. Personally, the current state of affairs in my life has been carefully constructed such that it can be easily adapted to either possibility. So I really don't have any "stake" in it either way.

The primary reason in making such a determination, at least for me, is to understand the material. Seeing as how such great efforts were made to bring these words to my eyes, I think the very least I can do is attempt to understand it. Again, Ra brought up harvest, right there in session one, completely unprompted, and in response to a query about earth changes. Again, Ra could have said, "Earth changes are trivial, and we would rather not discuss them." But they didn't. They threw the word "harvest" out there for a reason.

If the effects of harvest were confined to time/space only, what would be the point of talking about it to us here in space/time? If there is nothing for us to understand in the HERE AND NOW then the only possible outcome of such a communication is greater confusion. This would seem to run directly contrary to Ra's stated purpose.

So there seems to be some kind of disconnect going on when somebody wants to sum up the whole of the Ra material as a simple admonition to "live in the moment" and yet wants to relegate the majority of the content to "things we cannot understand in the moment".

If the whole point is to BE HERE NOW, then every last word in the Ra material should be something that we can understand in our current state.

[3DMonkey]

The "opening" or the "gate" is inside you. Just like everything else of this nature, if the entity lacks sufficient awareness then when the gate opens, they may hallucinate an external gate or portal to pass through- or whatever other perceived scenario is acceptable to their consciousness.

This is the "subjective" portion of the event that I think some people keep referring to. But that doesn't mean that there isn't an actual, literal, physical and energetic change occurring that would be consistently observed by an onlooker watching the whole thing go down from afar with the proper state of consciousness and scientific framework from which to interpret events.

Tenet, many times in this thread you have stated what I find to be the truth of the subject. IMO, it is as if you know the answers but are not looking for them in what you are saying/intuiting.

For example, see the above. Do you see?

If the onlooker is looking on then they aren't looking inside, which means what they see will be whatever they find acceptable to see. If the opening is inside, then an onlooker lacks the sufficient awareness. And if we are sitting here trying to determine what the onlookers are going to be looking at, then we are spinning our wheels into a deep rut.

I have found many of your statements to coincide with my understanding, but then you say something that make me go "huh?" because it is like you didn't look at what you just wrote.

[Tenet Nosce]

I typically side with unity and zen on the idea that death is necessary. But now (with my handy tarot deck), I might be able to see that time/space can be entered metaphorically, especially since death is in every incarnated moment.

Actually, I think you are pretty close.

3D appears continuous to us. It "looks" like one moment flows into the next. But that is really not the case. What we experience here is more like a film. It is a sequence of discrete images, strung together and passing so quickly as to create the illusion of continuity.

And yet, there is space between each moment of time. Time/space. The only reason we don't perceive the "space in between" moments is because we do not have a sufficient level of awareness.

So, yes, we do die in every moment. And we recreate ourselves anew. The only thing I think you have "wrong" here is taking it to be only a metaphor, and not a literal description of the way things actually are.

So the only missing link here is the misunderstanding that entities are "now" in space/time and "will be" in time/space after they die. This is incorrect. Incarnated entities are in BOTH space/time AND time/space.

The images are space/time, the screen is time/space, and the entity is the projector. How is that for metaphorical?

[unity100]

all is well and ok but Ra was talking based on the perception and definition of time as it is known at large in our population.

Well I'm glad we made some headway, and I understand your point on metaphor and it's differentiation as to the mechanics of harvest. Can you understand the communication process of trying to explain understandings to be fruitless a lot of the time? I rarely ever argue over peoples understandings on specific details. Because usually they're saying what they mean incorrectly, saying it in a different way that another misses the point entirely, or they simply aren't seeing what you see.

My complex explanation above clearly outlines how I fully understand the concepts of space/time and time/space, yet a few pages ago when pressed and flustered, I was unable to articulate it. Which is what I was saying earlier about accepting misunderstanding, and why we should reserve judgement.

i would like to mention that none of what you have metaphorized in that post, changes mechanics of the harvest. for example being placed into violet body upon death, an entity may be at a timeless state. but, it wont change the fact that in the 3d continuum it just left, he would have died.

So there seems to be some kind of disconnect going on when somebody wants to sum up the whole of the Ra material as a simple admonition to "live in the moment" and yet wants to relegate the majority of the content to "things we cannot understand in the moment".

precisely. if things were meant to be loaded into metaphors, and entities used their 'intuition' to get knowledge and wisdom, there would not be need for any such kind of work at all.

same people are, for some reason, studying energy centers, meditation etc given in the material. they are not metaphorizing these, or loading them with intuitive meanings and leaving them as their psyche prefers them. that is hypocrisy.

if one wants to learn, one needs to be open to information in all respects and regards. studying advanced information that was meant to be advanced information for people seeking advanced information to learn. when met with uncomfortable things, dodging with 'intuition' and ''metaphor' is contradictory for such seekers.

If the whole point is to BE HERE NOW, then every last word in the Ra material should be something that we can understand in our current state.

yes. there would be no point to all that information to be given in this state if we could not understand it.

[Raman]

Interesting. This was always my view since I read the material. But every time I brought it up, "you have projections/you are projecting" and things like that were always the normal responses.

If 7 billion people must be harvested, then there must be a mechanism so this is not an exercise in torture on the part of the Logos ( I am thinking this is a Galactic Logos's job more than the sub-Logos). Some type of built in so that it makes death painless and non-traumatic.

[zenmaster]

Some type of built in so that it makes death painless and non-traumatic.

Um, like the normal death process?

[Raman]

I do not think you have much experience dealing with death/dying process. It could painful traumatic.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Ra does not define these limits, so we have to define them ourselves. You define your's more logically than someone who would still be waiting after 50 years, but since the limits are not defined in the material, it is personal judgement. And it would simply be opinion to call that other person's judgement flawed.

ra defines these limits, sometimes explicitly by telling them, according to our timescale, because they are talking into OUR perception of time and measurements.

ranging from orion entry into planet being corrected after the mistake they made, to 100-700 years given for a transition, every time unit or scale or probability given were given in our scales. not theirs. they were not told to be left to the discretion of the reader either.

Ra never said "whenever we say 'approximately' regarding a date, it means within 5 years." Yes, they're using human time, but many people have different ideas of what approximately might mean. It's a relative term. If the limits were defined, the response would have been "Yes, the moment of harvest will happen sometime between 2010 and 2015." THAT is definition of the limits. Approximate limits are relative.

wherever there is ANY kind of probability, they have mentioned it. there are no exceptions. this even goes for the case of potential futures for this planet. there were probabilities, and the most likely ones were talked about.

Right, exactly, "most likely" probability does not mean "definitely." It explicitly leaves room for other probabilities. Not probabilities regarding the mechanic of harvest, but the date of harvest, which is what I'm talking about.

Do any of these rule out the possibility that harvest happens in a certain moment, but entities incarnated in space/time will not experience it until they die? I think I might have a different idea of what "gradualist" might mean than others. To me, a "gradual" harvest is one that simply allows for the entities within incarnation to die a natural death before they are harvested. So harvest happens, entities not in incarnation are harvested at that moment, and then as the entities within incarnation die, they are harvested...so it only lasts as long as it takes that generation to die. And it's possible that 3D entities were done incarnating years ago, meaning that the last of the pure 3D entities would be gone in less than a life-time. New entities being born would be harvested entities in 3D/4D bodies. That is as gradual as I see the material allowing for. Besides the "probability/possibility" thing, that is the ambiguity I talk about.

what's ruling out the possibility you speak of - apart from intelligent infinity contact not being something passing by unnoticed

Unless this contact only happens once one passes into time/space.

is the choice of words used when referring to entities harvestable, and harvested in the past. as i mentioned there, word 'harvested' used for any entity which undergoes process of contacting intelligent infinity and dying and getting placed in a 4d continuum, or, any entity that dies, gets harvested through harvest method at the end of cycle, and then gets placed in a 4d continuum. for ALL others, 'harvestable' wordage was used.

I'm still not quite grasping how this would inhibit the scenario I proposed. Entities will be harvested upon death, and will be harvestable in incarnation. In this harvest, one doesn't have to be "harvestable" to get harvested, they'll simply be placed in another 3D continuum. How does the difference between being harvested and being harvestable prevent one from being harvested only once they die naturally?

I'm talking about what happens at the "moment" of harvest, or when harvest "starts." Basically, the description Ra gives of harvest as the testing to see what incarnation nexus is appropriate. I'm not talking about the mechanisms surrounding harvest, I'm talking about harvest itself and how it is experienced, and whether it is experienced by people in incarnation.

what people experience, is a direct result of mechanism of harvest. it is not a subconscious event that goes unnoticed.

Right, of course if one is harvested they would know, but in the scenario at the moment harvest happens, the masses of unincarnated souls are harvested, and then the souls in incarnation are harvested upon natural death. Harvest strikes in a moment, and it would not be possible to not be harvested after the generation alive during harvest dies.

#1 for any entity to be deemed harvestable DURING incarnation, the entity needs to have made contact with intelligent infinity in its conscious self. it doesnt need to contact intelligent infinity by trying for it consciously - but the entity should be conscious when it made the contact.

#2 for any entity that is harvested, the entity is placed in violet body after death. im at a loss to see why some of you are missing to delve into these seemingly tiny bits of information despite they being critical and then getting sidetracked by other things. here :

there is great possibility in order for an entity to be placed in violet body, to have died. the entity will be placed in entirely violet body in order to access its harvestability. an entity in incarnation, with its 3d body active, and the proper astral counterpart active for that body, is very likely not to be able to be placed in violet body. therein lies the necessity of introducing the harvest 'anomaly' after death, so that entity is placed into violet body even before it is placed into indigo body.

I'm definitely not disagreeing that death is necessary for harvest. I'm just wondering why the death would have to be forced instead of natural.

What explicitly in Ra is denying the idea that this event that happens will force entities out of incarnation to be harvested? While the major event happens in a moment, and all the entities not in incarnation at that moment are harvested (which is what Ra explicitly stated), and then, as a result of that event, entities leaving incarnation will have the opportunity to be harvested.

"Regardless of progress" could easily just mean that the entities who have not polarized enough to experience the next density will also be harvested, because they wouldn't have been affected by the first two harvests. Basically it would mean "we take the 3D entities out of here because this ships turning 4D and they can't handle it." Do you feel the only option is that the 3D entities incarnate now are forced out of incarnation to be harvested?

leaving aside the important factors i explained in #1 and #2, harvest at the end of third cycle is an all encompassing event that is of cosmic level. it is not something that you can have 'options' with. 'all are harvested regardless of progress' is what was told. its not something that is left to choice of the entity. and if all are harvested in that fashion, #1 and #2 apply.

It's basically what I said, "we take all the 3D entities out of here because this ships turning 4D and they can't handle it." I'm not trying to say anyone has a choice to stay with Earth after they die. I'm saying when Ra says "all are harvested regardless of progress," "harvested" possibly happens after they die naturally, whether ready for 4D or not.

I figured the 3D entities who had not become harvestable would probably live the rest of their lives in a state of "depression," or scared...their ability to function waning with 3D vibes and 3D thoughtforms.

what you speak of would be more a reason to take them out of incarnation, because the situation you describe would destabilize their balance in ways that would require a few incarnations to rebalance. that, is basically torture.

I think it would simply halt their progress rather than destabilize their balance. The instreaming 3D vibrations are nearly non-existent as it is, so it wouldn't be much different after they disappear completely. There still plenty of 3D vibrations here in society to allow them to survive without completely shutting down. 4D would cause them to face aspects of themselves and others that harvestable entities have already faced and accepted in universal love. This wouldn't be comfortable, but it wouldn't be torture. Besides, if the Logos was worried about torturing entities, it's already messed up pretty bad with this reality.

I again thought the "fast" change was a part of the gradualist standpoint. Just not an instant change. 3D thoughtforms and ideas are purged from society in the next 100-700 years, which the 3Ders are long-gone by that point, because none were incarnating even before harvest actually happened. The dual-bodies are left to change society. That was my view of gradual.

and that gradualist perspective falls in many respects. the simplest being the population decline rate necessary to accomplish that. and for that they assume that 3d entities are being born into 3-4d bodies (which was a wrong misconception due to what i mentioned) in the rates of 60 million, along with harvested entities.

I don't think that population decline as an act of synchronicity would be out of the question, if population decline is really necessary.

But Ra said starting with 3D bodies, gradually becoming 4D bodies. In a gradual standpoint, they could easily become more and more aware of the 4D plane as they evolve. The body evolution will likely mimic very closely the mind evolution of society. The 4D sphere could seamlessly replace the 3D sphere as seamlessly as bodies evolve. An entity at either end of the transition would notice a major difference.

Would the body be directly related to what the mind perceived? Perhaps an entity could perceive 4D just as well as their "more evolved" daughter, and with each generation 3D is shed a bit more as the societal mind perceives 4D more and more.

therein lies the problem - you are still seeing the dimension differences from a perspective of 'awareness'. it is not just 'awareness' anymore. these are real, physical stuff. there are real physical implementations of this change. ranging from genetics of the bodies to the dimensionality properties of 4d sphere. just 'becoming more aware' would not be the case. there will be physical issues. it is not something that is just relevant to mind or awareness. at one point, the genetic properties of a transitional body will be different than the already born generations before it to a major extent. ranging from their food necessities to how they react to various different substances eaten.

I'm not saying that the 4D is just awareness, I'm talking about becoming more aware of the 4D material. Obviously there will be children born with different genetics and different material, and there's no clear explanation of how this evolution happens in the material. They will probably not react well to foods of lower vibration...they'll simply stop eating them.

How do you interpret the gradual evolution of 4D bodies if not gradual?

[Raman]

Gradual evolution of 4d's have nothing to do with 3d environment.

[βαθμιαίος]

3D harvest is the process by which entities are separated from one another, based upon polarity, and placed into a new sphere of experience. The options are: repeat of 3D, 4D negative, or 4D positive.

Are we on the same page so far?

Yes.

So there seems to be some kind of disconnect going on when somebody wants to sum up the whole of the Ra material as a simple admonition to "live in the moment" and yet wants to relegate the majority of the content to "things we cannot understand in the moment".

I hope you're not implying that that's my position. I don't think you are, but just for the record, it's not. I take Ra's statements literally re: energy centers, pyramids, Maldek, spider bites, harvest, etc., and I try to use and apply what they gave. It's just that in the case of harvest I haven't been able to see my way clear to an understanding of what Ra says in a way that makes complete sense. I don't think it's enough to say, "the preponderance of the evidence is on this side or that." I think there must be a way to interpret Ra's statements that incorporates all of them, gradualist and sudden, into a coherent, consistent narrative. I'm just not sure what it is.

[Tenet Nosce]

3D harvest is the process by which entities are separated from one another, based upon polarity, and placed into a new sphere of experience. The options are: repeat of 3D, 4D negative, or 4D positive.

Are we on the same page so far?

Yes.

OK. Next step.

In consideration of the remainder of the Ra material, along with just plain observations of people we know in our lives, and the masses "at large" as witnessed in how various global events are currently playing out, we should expect that the results of harvest, once complete and tallied, to be:

4D negative - a small, but not insignificant, portion of humanity
4D positive - a moderate proportion of humanity, but not the overwhelming majority
repeat 3D - the largest portion of humanity

Can we agree to this general outline?

I offer this in full understanding that:

A. Nobody really knows, and
B. Anything can happen

What I mean to say is, I am asking this not in a philosophical sense, or in consideration of the grandest scheme of "what is possible". I am asking in the sense of what we can reasonably ascertain as likely, from our vantage point here in September 2011, applying the fullest extent of both logic and feeling that is available to us in this moment.

I hope you're not implying that that's my position.

No, and I do apologize to everybody because I am realizing that I am probably adding to the confusion by my manner of posting.

My posts tend to start out as a specific reply to what somebody wrote, and then get more general towards the end. I could do a better job of delineating where the specific part ends and the general part begins.

I take Ra's statements literally re: energy centers, pyramids, Maldek, spider bites, harvest, etc., and I try to use and apply what they gave. It's just that in the case of harvest I haven't been able to see my way clear to an understanding of what Ra says in a way that makes complete sense.

Given your current situation, what would it take to have that clarity? What piece of information would solve the puzzle? Because if it is indeed a puzzle, then it is meant to be solved.

Trust me, I "get it" about living in the "wonder and mystery" of life. But this means progressively opening up to greater and greater mysteries as the lesser ones get solved. So I am not one to be content with just taking everything at face value and proclaiming myself as to be so utterly small minded as to not be able to understand the larger meaning, even if there is one.

I don't think it's enough to say, "the preponderance of the evidence is on this side or that."

It may not be enough, but nevertheless an assessment can be made at any point along the way. Look, I work every day with people whose bodies are drastically malfunctioning. I need to come up with a hypothesis, based upon the preponderance of the evidence, and make my professional best guess.

Just because I make a best guess does not preclude new information coming along that might demonstrate me to be 100% wrong. That is okay. Nobody is going to run me through the streets because I made a mistake. I simply gave my opinion at a certain point in time, based upon the limited information which was available at that time.

So, again, you are free to not say. But I still would like to know.

I think there must be a way to interpret Ra's statements that incorporates all of them, gradualist and sudden, into a coherent, consistent narrative. I'm just not sure what it is.

I'm totally down with this. In fact, it is why I am here. So we could begin by attempting to define what sort of characteristics that such an interpretation would possess? What are the key elements, or statements, that need to be accounted for?

A great deal of my yammering on here isn't, as you know, aimed at you directly. My frustration is primarily because we can't even seem to agree upon what simple words even mean. Invariably, somebody comes along and offers an "alternative" definition that essentially redefines a word into its opposite. This is pointless behavior.

I get it. I understand. Words are merely symbols for a larger reality. I'm not a dolt. Yet we are all here using words to communicate on an Internet forum. That's what communication is... exchange of information based upon a common understanding of language.

So getting back to the age-old quote, if Ra says that the earth was in fourth density in 1981, then either it actually WAS in fourth density in 1981 OR Ra was wrong.

[START GENERAL PORTION OF MY REPLY]

What I see happening sometimes (and I could possibly be wrong myself) is that somebody is too timid or afraid to come right out and say that Ra was wrong in their opinion. Therefore all manner of contrivances are made to try to piece things together in a somewhat incoherent way. This detracts from the overall potential of the experience we are having here.

[unity100]

Ra never said "whenever we say 'approximately' regarding a date, it means within 5 years." Yes, they're using human time, but many people have different ideas of what approximately might mean. It's a relative term. If the limits were defined, the response would have been "Yes, the moment of harvest will happen sometime between 2010 and 2015." THAT is definition of the limits. Approximate limits are relative.

i dont know what you are even arguing :

- all dates in the material regarding our time has been given with our time scale. corrected if erred.
- ra knows what a year is
- ra knows what does something taking a year, or longer than a year means.
- if the probabilities of it happening in another year than 2011 was sufficiently high, ra would tell it. like they did with transition, and anything else.
- harvest may happen this year. harvest happening in the next years will not change the fact that it will happen within a year.

Right, exactly, "most likely" probability does not mean "definitely." It explicitly leaves room for other probabilities. Not probabilities regarding the mechanic of harvest, but the date of harvest, which is what I'm talking about.

what im saying is if there were other probabilities that were sufficiently noticeable, they would be named.

Unless this contact only happens once one passes into time/space.

contacting intelligent infinity in conscious form, is free ticket out of a 3d planet. i am not sure if you are missing this or not. it surpasses harvest, harvest cycles, and apparently because harvesters come during harvests, harvesters too. and 'leaving through intelligent infinity' phrase used for these situations. im telling these because you seemed to imply that conscious contact during incarnation was not possible. it is. and it is not something that can go unnoticed.

as for contacting intelligent infinity in time/space, it isnt a possibility that would go unnoticed by the conscious self either. the contact substantially alters the consciousness of an entity when done in conscious form to the extent it is explained in the material and how do entities react. it doesnt matter whether you contact that energy during time/space presence in sleep or else - the energy that is transferred through contact, would still be there.

I'm still not quite grasping how this would inhibit the scenario I proposed. Entities will be harvested upon death, and will be harvestable in incarnation. In this harvest, one doesn't have to be "harvestable" to get harvested, they'll simply be placed in another 3D continuum. How does the difference between being harvested and being harvestable prevent one from being harvested only once they die naturally?

Right, of course if one is harvested they would know, but in the scenario at the moment harvest happens, the masses of unincarnated souls are harvested, and then the souls in incarnation are harvested upon natural death. Harvest strikes in a moment, and it would not be possible to not be harvested after the generation alive during harvest dies.

something that is told to take place within a year, cannot wait for entities' decades or 70 years long incarnation periods to end. harvesters come at the end of cycle in harvest, and apparently, go after harvest is completed. it is not an 'everlasting opportunity' that waits for whims and amusement of entities incarnated. otherwise a harvest period in a NORMAL 3d planet, would need to last a whopass 900 years at the minimum.

I'm definitely not disagreeing that death is necessary for harvest. I'm just wondering why the death would have to be forced instead of natural.

because, harvest is something that happens in cycle ends, upon a gateway opening. if it could accommodate an entity's lifespan, its period would need to be at the minimum 900 years due to normal 3d conditions.

therefore, it cannot be something that allows an incarnation to end for any 3d entity.

in addition, we were told that harvest would happen in a certain YEAR. we were not told that it would be any kind of period that would surpass a year.

I think it would simply halt their progress rather than destabilize their balance. The instreaming 3D vibrations are nearly non-existent as it is, so it wouldn't be much different after they disappear completely.

destabilization is not a result of missing 3d vibrations. its due to exposure to 4d vibrations before an entity's violet balance can accommodate for it. and, if 3d entities stay here, they WILL get exposed to 4d here and there, and it will be impossible to know how and when who will get exposed to it to what extent.

I don't think that population decline as an act of synchronicity would be out of the question, if population decline is really necessary.

what does 'synchronicity' mean ? magic ? will people stop reproducing just like that ?

I'm not saying that the 4D is just awareness, I'm talking about becoming more aware of the 4D material. Obviously there will be children born with different genetics and different material, and there's no clear explanation of how this evolution happens in the material. They will probably not react well to foods of lower vibration...they'll simply stop eating them.

How do you interpret the gradual evolution of 4D bodies if not gradual?

those bodies may be birthing and evolving in the newly shaping 4d physical plane that 3-4d body entities also manifest in. another dimension.

I hope you're not implying that that's my position. I don't think you are, but just for the record, it's not. I take Ra's statements literally re: energy centers, pyramids, Maldek, spider bites, harvest, etc., and I try to use and apply what they gave. It's just that in the case of harvest I haven't been able to see my way clear to an understanding of what Ra says in a way that makes complete sense. I don't think it's enough to say, "the preponderance of the evidence is on this side or that." I think there must be a way to interpret Ra's statements that incorporates all of them, gradualist and sudden, into a coherent, consistent narrative. I'm just not sure what it is.

ominous lack of information regarding what happens at the end of 3rd cycle should make you think. it was not explained in any detail.

[Raman]

Even in the harmonious Venus I still have doubts that 3d to 4d did not happen with sudden shift. Even 100-700 transition is to little to account for such a difference of vibration between 3d-4d..this could only be sustained for bodies already capable of withstand this change in the vibrational state of the atoms. At one point the "evolution" ideas of 3d academia do not fly with the galactic clocks.

[βαθμιαίος]

4D negative - a small, but not insignificant, portion of humanity
4D positive - a moderate proportion of humanity, but not the overwhelming majority
repeat 3D - the largest portion of humanity

That's also my understanding of what Ra said, and it seems like it's probably still basically true.

Forgive my impatience, but when are you going to get to the 7 billion in early 4D?

[zenmaster]

Gradual evolution of 4d's have nothing to do with 3d environment.

Evolution is done with a body. For 4D on earth now, that body is 3D/4D combo, probably for a few hundred years.

[Raman]

Gradual evolution of 4d's have nothing to do with 3d environment.

Evolution is done with a body. For 4D on earth now, that body is 3D/4D combo, probably for a few hundred years.

What do you do with 7 billion people? And probably that is not even the point, it seems you are trying to apply college taught (or high school for that matter) evolution to the transition of 3d to 4d...and it seems it is more complicated than that. Taking into account vibrational states of the atoms in comparison with densities and compatibilities implied.


============================================================================
Regarding the year we have Ra and also the 6d south american group that were much more succesful than Ra themselves.

Now both could be wrong saying 2011 as the date. At this point, knowing the date (if accurate) is not even an issue if positive or negative information. Seems that 3d-4d activated ones are already aware of the changes and knowing this date could apply just to wanderers and harvestable entities.

======================================================================

Dual activated cannot die since they must provide the bodies for coming 4d incarnations. However, I find interesting that they have to die per 3d necessities so I don't know if this refers to life span and these are "3D" ones that remain or refers as unity100 said, another sphere or dimension. in which 3d/4d bodies live in full 4d or...erath is fully 4d activated (meaning 3d in potentiation) and then 3d body is dead but 4d activated (dual) survives. In this last case, the 4d activated earth wil be the new dimension.

[unity100]

Dual activated cannot die since they must provide the bodies for coming 4d incarnations. However, I find interesting that they have to die per 3d necessities so I don't know if this refers to life span and these are "3D" ones that remain or refers as unity100 said, another sphere or dimension. in which 3d/4d bodies live in full 4d or...erath is fully 4d activated (meaning 3d in potentiation) and then 3d body is dead but 4d activated (dual) survives. In this last case, the 4d activated earth wil be the new dimension.

don specifically asked this. ra specifically cleared that the combination body is the 3-4d body and it will die. it happened in 2 consecutive q/as.

[Tenet Nosce]

There was more to my previous post. I hit post instead of preview.

Forgive my impatience, but when are you going to get to the 7 billion in early 4D?

OK, so let's just say for the sake of example we have 5% 4D/neg, 35% 4D/pos, and 60% repeat 3D.

Current earth population at 7 billion. So we have in this example about 4.5 billion people leaving the earth sphere during harvest. Say harvest is over a period of 1000 years (a very generous estimate), that leaves on average 4.5 million people a year that either, die and are not replaced, or are replaced by newly-harvested entities from other spheres.

Still with me?

[Raman]

==================================================================================================================
I think it is very significant at this stage knowing not only about the concept of harvest but an (even if approximate) date. It probably gives hope to wanderers, and even more to 4d and or harvestables. Honestly, I do not think a harvestable entity will feel very comfortable in this 3d environment at this point. (more so for wanderers).

---

Dual activated cannot die since they must provide the bodies for coming 4d incarnations. However, I find interesting that they have to die per 3d necessities so I don't know if this refers to life span and these are "3D" ones that remain or refers as unity100 said, another sphere or dimension. in which 3d/4d bodies live in full 4d or...erath is fully 4d activated (meaning 3d in potentiation) and then 3d body is dead but 4d activated (dual) survives. In this last case, the 4d activated earth wil be the new dimension.

don specifically asked this. Ra specifically cleared that the combination body is the 3-4d body and it will die. it happened in 2 consecutive q/as.

Yeah I remember that and I mentioned in my post. Then what is the point for having 3d-4d dual entities?

[unity100]

your numbers are way off tenet. even Ra's successful harvest was 20%. we were told this harvest seemed to be going to be very small.

[βαθμιαίος]

So, again, you are free to not say. But I still would like to know.

I don't know, and I don't really feel the necessity to speculate. I feel like we'll know soon enough. Whether the time frame is months or 100-700 years, it's still the blink of an eye. I'm not saying harvest isn't important, just that the sudden vs gradual issue doesn't fascinate me. However, I do admit that I'm curious enough to be following this thread (somewhat), but I'm finding my efforts to remain a bystander hampered by your interest in my opinion, and I regret that I'm unable to satisfy you on that.

So we could begin by attempting to define what sort of characteristics that such an interpretation would possess? What are the key elements, or statements, that need to be accounted for?

I'm sure they've pretty much all been given on this thread in support of one argument or another. One example: if the 100-700 year period cannot be accurate due to the volatility of our peoples, doesn't that imply that our peoples (ie 3D natives, not just dual-bodied entities) would still be here in 100-700 years, according to the possibility/probability vortices visible to Ra in 1981?

So I am not one to be content with just taking everything at face value and proclaiming myself as to be so utterly small minded as to not be able to understand the larger meaning, even if there is one.

I don't see that the question of sudden vs gradual harvest has any larger meaning. It's mechanical, as has been pointed out many times.

So getting back to the age-old quote, if Ra says that the earth was in fourth density in 1981, then either it actually WAS in fourth density in 1981 OR Ra was wrong.

What I see happening sometimes (and I could possibly be wrong myself) is that somebody is too timid or afraid to come right out and say that Ra was wrong in their opinion. Therefore all manner of contrivances are made to try to piece things together in a somewhat incoherent way. This detracts from the overall potential of the experience we are having here.

When I first read the material I decided/realized that I needed to take it as a whole: either accept it all or reject it all. Perhaps that was and is unsophisticated and undiscerning of me, but oh well. The material rings true to me on so many levels that I do accept it as a whole. I recognize that's not the case for everyone, though.

[Raman]

There was more to my previous post. I hit post instead of preview.

Forgive my impatience, but when are you going to get to the 7 billion in early 4D?

OK, so let's just say for the sake of example we have 5% 4D/neg, 35% 4D/pos, and 60% repeat 3D.

Current earth population at 7 billion. So we have in this example about 4.5 billion people leaving the earth sphere during harvest. Say harvest is over a period of 1000 years (a very generous estimate), that leaves on average 4.5 million people a year that either, die and are not replaced, or are replaced by nearly-harvestable entities from other spheres.

Still with me?

If harvest happens over a period of even 1 more than a few months is not the idea I have for harvest since the sphere per se cannot accommodate 3d life. Final cycle is that: final. 3d is over. 4d (fully activated is here). This is the whole point of activation and 3d in potentiation.

[zenmaster]

Gradual evolution of 4d's have nothing to do with 3d environment.

Evolution is done with a body. For 4D on earth now, that body is 3D/4D combo, probably for a few hundred years.

What do you do with 7 billion people?

By that I assume you mean that although many are coming from elsewhere to live in transitional bodies, it can't be 7 billion 4D, because why? Because there is a limit to how far they would come to this place vs better opportunity on a closer or more interesting 4D world?

And probably that is not even the point, it seems you are trying to apply college taught (or high school for that matter) evolution to the transition of 3d to 4d...and it seems it is more complicated than that. Taking into account vibrational states of the atoms in comparison with densities and compatibilities implied.

I'm sure you'll find a complicated answer for yourself one day.

[Tenet Nosce]

your numbers are way off tenet. even Ra's successful harvest was 20%. we were told this harvest seemed to be going to be very small.

I'm trying to give a generous estimate, firstly so that the math doesn't work too fully in my favor, and second, to avoid a potential derailment. Point being, with wildly generous estimates, the numbers still don't make sense.

[native]

Icaro - I completely agree with you that individual understandings about various topics are not worth arguing about. We often try so very hard to "define" things and set limits on them so that we can cope. But it isn't necessary. All we need is love. Judgements and definitions are just an illusion. And whether we see it or not, or understand it or not, we are all connected, it is all now, and I can't really articulate what I'm thinking/seeing, but somehow I think you'll intuitively understand. Thank you for sticking with it, and also for moving your post.

Thank you for the kind words. Welcome to the forum by the way!