Greetings. Oct282011 Website (quite interesting)!

[zenmaster]

"The change you feel, anticipate, hope for, dream about, look forward, is in fact, the change itself. It is what could be considered a milestone.

Actually hope prevents transformation. It's an identification with an idea which has not yet been accepted. It's a quite nebulous and dis-owned pattern of mind projected into the future.

[3DMonkey]

I'm not so sure. Isn't hope accepting something that hasn't occurred? That's a transformation in the now, in my view.

Now, identifying with it after something different has occurred is hindering transformation in the now. And that really just boils down to indentification=hindrance.

Hope and identifying do not necessarily go hand in hand. Do they?

[zenmaster]

I'm not so sure. Isn't hope accepting something that hasn't occurred?

No because hope is an idea which is not real.

Now, identifying with it after something different has occurred is hindering transformation in the now. And that really just boils down to indentification=hindrance.

Comparison is also not real.

Hope and identifying do not necessarily go hand in hand. Do they?

Yes, identification meaning an attachment to an unnecessary distortion. The stronger the attachment the stronger the identification and the further the idea is from transformation. It's a distancing mechanism for the coping psyche, just like its polarity fear.

[3DMonkey]

I don't see how hope is separate from 'having hope'. 'Having hope' is real, as it pertains to the person. This is a mental transformation which will manifest somehow. Even the "real" stuff is make believe as it enters the mental distortions. You can't ever remove attachment, only replace it with a new link/synapse.

[zenmaster]

I don't see how hope is separate from 'having hope'. 'Having hope' is real, as it pertains to the person. This is a mental transformation which will manifest somehow. Even the "real" stuff is make believe as it enters the mental distortions. You can't ever remove attachment, only replace it with a new link/synapse.

Hope is not a mental transformation. It's a mental attitude. You can't learn with the presence of hope as an attitude any more than you can learn with fear as as attitude. Through acceptance, one can remove distortions which tend to be patterns of mind that foster particular attachment, yes.

[3DMonkey]

Oops. You're saying any attitude cannot foster learning. What attitude should be employed? Sounds like their wouldn't be any fuel in the tank.

[zenmaster]

Oops. You're saying any attitude cannot foster learning. What attitude should be employed? Sounds like their wouldn't be any fuel in the tank.

A non-distancing (projecting) attitude of mind, such as curiosity, is useful for learning.

[3DMonkey]

How is that not projecting? Projecting openness.

It's an attitude.

LOL. Even that starts out with the hope of balance in the end.

[zenmaster]

How is that not projecting? Projecting openness.

It only may become a 'projection of openness' when taken outside of the immediate learning dialog and depicted as 'the idea of curiosity'.

LOL. Even that starts out with the hope of balance in the end.

It's not necessary to have hope of balance to have curiosity. So no, it doesn't start out with hope of balance.

[3DMonkey]

Every move we make begins with hope for something. Even if that hope is for openness or open ended curiosity.

[zenmaster]

Every move we make begins with hope for something.

Obviously not. For example, if one cultivates faith which provides possibilities, then there is no need for hope when making a move. One is an act of unconsciousness, the other of consciousness.

[3DMonkey]

That one hopes to achieve something by doing so.

---

Faith is an attitude as well.

[zenmaster]

That one hopes to achieve something by doing so.

But one isn't always positioned to be hopeful in that manner, not even unconsciously.

Faith is an attitude as well.

Faith is a resource, like experience. Ra calls it a faculty.

[native]

I see we're talking about hope and faith/will again. As I see it, our hopes are ultimately always based on some kind of emotional need. That is, there is an unconscious desire influencing what we hope for. Identifying with what is hoped for satisfies the unconscious emotional need, and it is only distancing itself from moving towards recognizing what is unconscious. All of which has been said already, but I figured I would word it differently.

Hope is always accompanied by the feeling of some amount of uncertainty, whereas faith is affirmation. Hope never has the feeling of wholeness because there is something in the back of your mind that is in disbelief. There is disbelief because you haven't yet fully examined (thus accepted) why it is you're hoping for whatever.

For transformation of the mind to occur, Ra says.."one principle governing the use of the deep mind must be abandoned." The principles being positive/negative..acceptance/separation..conscious/unconscious. Meaning, rather than always keeping yourself at a distance from the unconscious by identifying with a distortion (something involving separation..ignoring what is true), you move towards acceptance and transformation occurs through choice..choosing to recognize what is unconscious leading to the great way. This way distortion is alleviated because you no longer have an unconscious identification with something. The great way symbolizes the spirit moving ever closer to the eternal truth.

[native]

So the key is to always attempt to examine the influences behind your hopes. If you reduce the word hope, it is basically an opinion of what you'd like to see. But what we'd like to see is not necessarily an acceptance of what is real and true. So you must intimately examine your hopes, to see what it is you don't want to acknowledge.

If you look at the concept complexes, which each represent the energy centers, transformation is the sixth, which pertains to the indigo ray, the adept. An adept is able to use its will to manifest, to consciously create, by working with intelligent infinity/energy. The only way this can be done is by crystallizing the centers, which requires acceptance of what is true. That's why Ra says to find love in the moment, where love is truth. The more acceptance, the more polarization. The more polarization, the more power that lies behind the will. Which is why adepts can work with visualization.

You will never manifest anything with hope because you have not stepped past the point of transformation. You cannot create without contacting the great way through acceptance. In this density, transformation is a change in consciousness, which is acceptance. Changes in consciousness leads towards harmonization. Harmonization creates a more loving reality. The outer reality reflects the inner reality.

[3DMonkey]

I don't see hope that way. I think there is projection in your definition of the word.

I think we hope Ra is right. We hope individuating will improve us. We hope to learn something. We hope to find awareness. We hope that we exist after death. We hope aliens are contactable. We hope we will wake up in the morning.

Faith is just the faculty that takes the first step toward something hoped for. 'I hope I wake up in the morning. By faith, I go to sleep to find out if I will'

[native]

Faith is affirmation of the will. Will is action. Hope is is empty belief, because it is belief without action. What we're really talking about is actualization here, which is movement of the spirit. Manifestation. Creation. We actualize our faith through our will, not through empty hoping.

I hope that hunger will end. I hope that I have good health. I hope our country will prosper.

I will work towards ending world hunger. I will take care of my body through personal commitment. I will actively participate in my local government. There is a big difference.

We actualize through changes in consciousness. Change in consciousness will drive us towards more committed service. Service is action. If it was as easy as hoping, then we wouldn't have to do anything. You must create change.

You cannot hope things into existence. You will them with faith in the outcome, knowing that your action will create change. Deep down inside, people really don't believe in their hopes, because if they did they wouldn't be sitting around hoping. They would recognize that they must actively participate in manifesting an outcome.

Transformation is movement of the spirit towards the great way, which is simply creation (action) symbolized in the tarot by wings. The great way is movement, action, doing, creating. Which is why it is sacramental, because it symbolizes the very nature of existence..the process of creation.

[zenmaster]

I think we hope Ra is right. We hope individuating will improve us.

But Icaro's take is a fitting definition.

'We' don't 'hope' individuating will 'improve' us. We know it offers more ability to do work, to take responsibility and ownership of self.
The individuation process is the process of acceptance of self. Part of that self is the logos. Through this experience we see, demonstrably, the process and the outcome as law (of the logos). That's 'faith'. There is no necessity of 'hope' in that regard - it doesn't fit. Hope is invoked as a coping mechanism - it distances self from self through attachment to (identification with) an unreal idea. That idea just hangs around until it becomes obsolete.

[native]

I think what's being differentiated here is that hope goes through a process of transformation. Let's use the example of a parent.

"I hope my daughter gets a college education." This is a fairly large hope, involving a lot of unconscious content.

Many baby boomers have this ideal for their child because it wasn't an opportunity they had. A fine ideal in and of itself, but what if she rejects the notion? The parent may view college as that which affords a more comfortable life, and they may equate it with a measure of success, intelligence, and societal contribution and value as a human being. Those are all projections based on cultural standards however. In the eye of the parent, rejection of college is a rejection of all those things.

The parent will then be presented with all kinds of emotional catalyst. If they are willing, their definitions of comfort, success, and intelligence will all change, and it will probably take years of confrontation with their own values. Eventually they'll realize that what they really hoped for in the beginning, was that they simply wanted their daughter to be happy.

The hope is continually modified into different ideals until there is acceptance that since she is happy, I am happy. A hope may or may not have as much unconscious content attached to it. Eventually a hope goes through many redefinitions until it's realized what must be done on the minimalist of levels, and then the spirit is compelled to act.

The protestors realized that sitting around complaining wasn't doing anything, so now they are taking to the streets hoping it will change something. It should influence the political environment, and there will be varying degrees of change. They'll realize however that the change won't produce the results that they truly wish to see, because there is still a lot of unconscious content to process. The value of action is that it produces continual feedback, and the realization of what is or isn't realistically viable. Eventually it will all be reduced down to values of the individual, and what must be changed within.

It all comes back to acceptance within, which produces new action. If you can continually be mindful of your ideals, realization of what is necessary is easier.

[3DMonkey]

Faith is affirmation of the will. Will is action. Hope is is empty belief, because it is belief without action. What we're really talking about is actualization here, which is movement of the spirit. Manifestation. Creation. We actualize our faith through our will, not through empty hoping.

I hope that hunger will end. I hope that I have good health. I hope our country will prosper.

I will work towards ending world hunger. I will take care of my body through personal commitment. I will actively participate in my local government. There is a big difference.

We actualize through changes in consciousness. Change in consciousness will drive us towards more committed service. Service is action. If it was as easy as hoping, then we wouldn't have to do anything. You must create change.

You cannot hope things into existence. You will them with faith in the outcome, knowing that your action will create change. Deep down inside, people really don't believe in their hopes, because if they did they wouldn't be sitting around hoping. They would recognize that they must actively participate in manifesting an outcome.

Transformation is movement of the spirit towards the great way, which is simply creation (action) symbolized in the tarot by wings. The great way is movement, action, doing, creating. Which is why it is sacramental, because it symbolizes the very nature of existence..the process of creation.

Faith is an application of the will. All belief is empty. Action is action not faith or hope.

It still sounds like you have baggage within the concept of hope, as if hope were synonymous with attachment to fantasy. If this is so, then this is where we disagree. I've given examples to things I consider to define hope, and it doesn't sound like we agree. I don't put all the weight into hope.

---

I think we hope Ra is right. We hope individuating will improve us.

But Icaro's take is a fitting definition.

'We' don't 'hope' individuating will 'improve' us. We know it offers more ability to do work, to take responsibility and ownership of self.
The individuation process is the process of acceptance of self. Part of that self is the logos. Through this experience we see, demonstrably, the process and the outcome as law (of the logos). That's 'faith'. There is no necessity of 'hope' in that regard - it doesn't fit. Hope is invoked as a coping mechanism - it distances self from self through attachment to (identification with) an unreal idea. That idea just hangs around until it becomes obsolete.

You hope work is important. You hope you have the ability to take ownership. You hope there is a "self" there to work with.

Oh, wow. That is not faith.

I think your definition of hope involves a heavy load of projections that the concept of hope was never designed to bear. I agree that hope CAN be applied in such a way as to create a coping mechanism. I do not agree that this IS hope.

[native]

I'm in alignment with your thoughts my brotha! I hear you. I'm trying to elaborate on concepts. You're equating hope with intention. There is always intention behind will, yes.

I would like society to transform into a communal culture. It's an ideal. You could say it's a hope, but I don't identify with it as a future destination because something either is, or it isn't. There is only the present moment. I don't place myself in the future, rather, I acknowledge and identify with what must be done in the moment. I put all my energy, faith, and will into transforming the moment. There is of course a part of me that contemplates the future, but I don't worry about it (identification). The present is what it is, I accept it. I visualize what I would like to see in the now. That's will. I focus on the present, and what needs to be done now.

If you truly didn't believe something could be accomplished, you wouldn't try. There are times when we go through the motions, but there isn't any faith behind the action. We are always acting on our hopes (what you are saying) until we realize what truly needs to be done (the point I'm making). Once we've polarized, meaning made what was unconscious, conscious, our will is more effective because we are truly working with what is in the present. We truly realize that hey, this is possible. It then becomes faith. It's why spiritual progression involves "..entering a more profoundly, acutely realized present moment."

[native]

I realize that what's being said is hope can be spoken of as having ideals. That we must always have ideals and intention that follows. It all comes back to the present moment. Faith is the attitude that there is no trying, there is only doing. Where what needs to be done is focusing on the moment. The reason I keep elaborating is that living in the moment involves cultivating the right healthy attitude. Don't try, do. We have to continually reinforce this mindset.

Think of anytime you decided that what you wanted, you were realllly going to make it happen. That intense feeling inside is the energy of the creative force..it's faith..it's will, but it certainly isn't hope.

My communal hope is meaningless really because there is no future, but the real value lies in the fact that I am always manifesting a giving nature now. The more conscious pull your hopes have on you, the less you are living in the moment. We can't identify with the future, because it doesn't exist.

[3DMonkey]

Faith is simply the faculty of The Fool. It is stepping forward into the unknown in order to know. That's it. There's nothing else to faith than that. IMO.

[native]

Yes, and that's creation. I think what you're saying is that we step forward in order to remember as we work 'backwards' towards the creator. That's true and is a big part of how the octave actually functions, but I would suggest that the creator from the beginning wasn't all-knowing. It was simply awareness, which led to the first three distortions, and then infinite progression. Infinity implies that there is always something new available to experience. So the creator is of course always in the process of discovery, which is what the choice represents.

I think the choice represents more than faith, as Ra says it's only one aspect of it, and that it is the unifying archetype. The desire to know, the creative principle. It's the first distortion..free will. I think the choice also represents those aspects. It is the foundation which brought infinity out of its eternal sleep. If there was no calling of the spirit, no creative principle, it would have never came into being. Which is probably why the choice is paired with the significator.

The creative principle is all there is, its significance is the most meaningful. The spark to move and act. The creative principle in motion..use of the first distortion, will. There is no future. We create it. There is only the present. Don't think (hope), act! Always. You see? Step forward. Continuously be a creator. Become ingrained in the present.

We have to remove hope from our mindset. Actualize what you would like to see. Use your free will.

Consequently, I also think it's interesting to consider 28.15 - "However, it has been impressed upon us by our own teachers that there is a mystery-clad unity of creation in which all consciousness periodically coalesces and again begins. Thus we can only say we assume an infinite progression though we understand it to be cyclical in nature and, as we have said, clad in mystery."

The negative polarity is absorptive. There seems to be an aspect of the creator that wants to remain unconscious, which is what motivates the negative polarity. It's understandable that the unity of creation wouldn't want to be conscious eternally, so its unconscious desire causes coalescence and then comes into being for ever more new experiences.

[3DMonkey]

I'm not talking about returning. I'm talking about creator knowing itself. About infinite expression.

I really don't think you can remove hope, because you are hoping to accomplish something by doing so.

As for The Choice, I think it is all about how we view others. Will we accept other self as self to serve other self, or will we control other self as self to serve self.

[native]

I can understand why there is disagreement. We're talking about something that ultimately can't be described, but only experienced. Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching? It's 81 poetic verses about infinity and its relation to the present moment, which is the heart of what we're discussing. I have Derek Lin's translation. It's a relatively new translation, and is the best in my opinion.

[3DMonkey]

Only what has been posted in The Mysterious Nature of Time thread. I made a few observations this morning.

[Ens Entium]

Let's say I want to play snakes and ladders. I am not fully in control of the game or of the outcomes the other players will produce. Since the attainment of my objective is not certain, I desire that the outcome I choose manifests. So I have the objective. I have then a purpose, my intention is then to fulfil that purpose.

I'm at a loss to see where the non-acceptance comes in. Does hope mean that one has necessarily become attached to the desired outcome. I see hope as just another 'emanation' or personalisable 'object' that one *can* become attached to (or not); not that hope itself indicates an element of attachment or identification.

I'm just curious about what it is specifically that is not accepted or what it is about the self that is distanced from the self. Is it the unrecognised qualities of self and values that have taken form in what the hope is for?

Here, I am hoping that this post will get a response, I have the objective of reaching a clearer understanding. If that doesn't happen though, my intention is still the same. I see what I value in a reply and hence in the increased understanding.

Let me know if I've missed the essence of your guys' points.

[zenmaster]

Tao verse 13

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.

[Oceania]

semantics.