In regards to eating meat

[Ankh]

Can you define extremist?

Someone with an unbalanced view which is clouding this person's mind and makes him/her to go to the extreme when sharing that view with others, such as infringing and/or being disrespectful towards other selves.

Do you think someone who believes passionately that animals are our younger brothers and sisters, and tries to save them from being tortured and killed, is an extremist?

It depends on what this person does.

Would you agree that tone is something that is very difficult to assess, when we have only typed words on a computer screen, and lack being able to see facial expressions or hear the tone of voice?

Yes.

Would you agree that we all sometimes misperceive tone, because of our own preconceived ideas, biases, and distortions?

Yes.

What do you think is actually causing the separation?

Among many things, disrespect.

How can the vegetarians be true to their convictions?

By being vegetarians.

Apparently, the only way *some* of the meat-eaters will accept the vegetarians, is if the vegetarians give up their convictions!

Is this what you would like to see happen, in order to restore harmony? Must we give up our convictions, Ankh?

To be honest with you: I perceive the above kind of statements as an "attack". They do make me to go into a defensive mode. I am consciously aware of that. But I want to be honest with you, that I personally don't find the above kind of statements helpful in this discusssion.

In my opinion, the harmony is restored by respect.

Must we censor ourselves? Or is there any other solution?

My opinion on the solution is respect.

We wonder whether we've done 'enough' for them, whether we could have spoken up more, and we chastise ourselves for letting what others think of us be more important than those we are called to help. We sometimes lie awake at night, hearing their cries, while struggling with our own guilt - the guilt of not having done enough...the guilt of of selfishly caring more about our popularity with other humans then we do about the suffering of our other-selves...the guilt of selfishly keeping our mouths shut, rather than being willing to endure ridicule.

I am starting to understand it now, Monica. In my own view it wouldn't present any problems, if not these opinions were so passionately disseminated to a point where I personally have been *afraid* of speaking here, in the past. I know I am not alone on this.

One example: some days ago, a member asked about something in this thread, and you, among others, gave advices to this member. So I thought - why not? And I made a post, *quoting* this member. But instantly, there was reply by you, diminishing what I had to say. I wish that we all would be able to play along here, nicely, while respecting each other.

I understand that, for whatever reason, you are unable to grasp the reality of their pain, and the reality of the pain of those who feel that pain. Please know that we do feel that pain very acutely, and this is what drives us. Please, even if you cannot understand it, perhaps you can have compassion for us in that respect.

Are you speaking to me personally now, or just in general?

Can you have compassion for our dilemma?

I admit: I have problems with compassion when I am lectured, taught, and informed like I was a kid standing in front of a teacher. If you wish to teach, Monica, you have to learn. I believe that you would do much more effective teaching, if you could find a method of how to convey your conviction with an understanding and compassion towards whom you are speaking with. THAT would also solve your polarity question, in my fallible opinion.

Can you possibly have compassion for what it's like for those of us who do?

I am starting to understand it.

The questions that I have now is: how shall we play along with each other in this thread? As I said, this is probably a most disharmonious thread in this forum. Why do you think it is so? What does it depend on? What is the reason for that? And how shall we solve it?

[Monica]

Someone with an unbalanced view

According to whom? who gets to decide that the person's view is unbalanced?

which is clouding this person's mind and makes him/her to go to the extreme

Can you give an example of anyone going to an 'extreme' in this thread?

when sharing that view with others, such as infringing.

Speaking only of a discussion forum wherein everyone is there voluntarily of their own free will, Is honestly sharing one's views, even though they might be unpopular, infringing on other-selves?

being disrespectful towards other selves.

Is calling someone a name like zealot or fanatic disrespectful?

It depends on what this person does.

If the person hears the cries of the oppressed, and sincerely thought there might be a chance to trigger some compassion in some spiritually oriented people, and thus speaks honestly, openly, and passionately, begging for compassion for the oppressed brothers and sisters, is that extremist?

Would you agree that tone is something that is very difficult to assess, when we have only typed words on a computer screen, and lack being able to see facial expressions or hear the tone of voice?

Yes.

Would you agree that we all sometimes misperceive tone, because of our own preconceived ideas, biases, and distortions?

Yes.

Then how can you be so sure that you have detected disrespect in someone tone? since you have only their written words... Is it possible you were simply wrong in your perception of their tone?

What do you think is actually causing the separation?

Among many things, disrespect.

Can you provide an example of this disrespect?

How can the vegetarians be true to their convictions?

By being vegetarians.

Apparently I have failed to convey what is driving many vegetarians.

It isn't enough to just be vegetarians ourselves, when our younger brothers and sisters are being oppressed, to the point of torture and slaughter, by the millions each day.

Therefore, our convictions require that we do what we can to raise awareness among those who are contributing to this torture and slaughter.

How, then, do we honor our own convictions, while still honoring the free will of our 3D other-selves, who, in our view, are violating the will of our 2D other-selves?

To be honest with you: I perceive the above kind of statements as an "attack". They do make me to go into a defensive mode. I am consciously aware of that. But I want to be honest with you, that I personally don't find the above kind of statements helpful in this discusssion.

Then you have perceived incorrectly, for it wasn't my intention to 'attack' you in any way!! It was simply an honest question.

You have spoken of disrespect, and you have spoken of your desire for peace and harmony in this thread.

So I ask you an honest question: Would you prefer that the vegetarians give up our convictions, in order to have peace and harmony?

Would you prefer that we censor ourselves, like we do at the grocery store and at Christmas dinner?

Are we asking too much, to ask that we be accepted for who we are, including our convictions?

Are we expecting too much, to hope that we might be able to speak openly and honestly, in a discussion about this topic, in a forum dedicated to the tenets of the Law of One, including Acceptance of other-selves? Are we wrong to hope that we might be accepted without censoring our deepest convictions?

Are peace and harmony more important than honoring our own personal convictions? If that is the only way the meat-eaters will accept us - if we surrender our convictions and keep our mouths shut - then would you prefer that we do that?

Honest questions, Ankh.

In my opinion, the harmony is restored by respect.

This has been proven false. This thread has been fraught with disharmony, regardless of how 'nice' and respectful the vegetarians were. Some vegetarians, including myself, apologized almost to the point of groveling, for having the audacity to express our viewpoints.

It didn't help at all.

Can you consider, Ankh, that the meat-eaters won't accept the vegetarians no matter how nice and respectful they are, as long as they continue to express their convictions?

Can you consider, Ankh, that it is the meat-eaters' lack of acceptance of the vegetarians' convictions, that is causing the discord?

This lack of acceptance is displayed in plain sight, for all to see. I have asked several times whether any meat-eater has increased their compassion of vegetarians because of this discussion. Two people came forth privately, but none have come forth publicly.

The vegetarians cannot express who they are, without being ridiculed, judged, and labeled. As a stark example, I just poured out my heart and soul in my last post. I almost begged for compassion, if not understanding.

So far, you are the only one who has answered. And you chose to completely ignore all the important points I made, in favor of being offended by the honest question I asked of you.

I am starting to understand it now, Monica. In my own view it wouldn't present any problems, if not these opinions were so passionately disseminated to a point where I personally have been *afraid* of speaking here, in the past. I know I am not alone on this.

This is a single thread, among hundreds, in a single forum, among thousands on the internet.

In contrast, we vegetarians are 'afraid' of speaking openly and honestly, on a daily basis, with virtually everyone we meet.

We are censored, in everyday life, all the time.

I'm sorry you felt restricted, Ankh, but there is really no comparison between the minor restriction you felt, and the major restriction and censorship we must endure, on a daily basis.

One example: some days ago, a member asked about something in this thread, and you, among others, gave advices to this member. So I thought - why not? And I made a post, *quoting* this member. But instantly, there was reply by you, diminishing what I had to say. I wish that we all would be able to play along here, nicely, while respecting each other.

So your example is that I posted my opinion?

???

Since when is posting an opinion somehow wrong? Is it because you didn't like my opinion?

May I respectfully remind you of forum guideline #1:

1) Respect. Compassion. Loving-kindness. Empathy. Trust. Goodwill. Desire to serve. Embracing each other. Opening our heart. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectful at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our knowledge, deepen our understanding, and support one another by reflecting our divinity to each other. We are One being -- we are not here to forget the real.

How could one person's opinion 'diminish' another person's opinion?

I cannot be accused of violating this guideline. I have bent over backwards to consistently insist that no one analyze anyone personally on this thread, despite the countless times others have tried to make it personal.

Just now, you made it personal.

Are you speaking to me personally now, or just in general?

Except for when I addressed you by name, I was referring to anyone in general.

Can you have compassion for our dilemma?

I admit: I have problems with compassion when I am lectured, taught, and informed like I was a kid standing in front of a teacher. If you wish to teach, Monica, you have to learn.

I find this antagonistic. I have always been willing to learn, in many various discussions on this forum.

In the area of animal cruelty, however, I happen to have more knowledge about the topic than many of the meat-eaters here. I will not censor myself or pretend to know less than I do. I won't "dumb myself down" just to be accepted.

If you are unable or unwilling to accept that I happen to have some knowledge about the topic, then just who is it that is refusing to learn from others?

I am happy to learn from you and from anyone else, Ankh, about a lot of things. But I'm not likely to learn much about how to help save the animals, from those who eat animals.

I believe that you would do much more effective teaching, if you could find a method of how to convey your conviction with an understanding and compassion towards whom you are speaking with.

So now you are saying I lack compassion?

I just bared my soul to you, Ankh. I almost begged for compassion from you and the others, and you told me you were unable to give it.

And then you tell me I lack compassion?

THAT would also solve your polarity question, in my fallible opinion.

My polarity question??

WOW. I am stunned.

So now you are questioning my polarity??

You have not only made this personal, but now presume to analyze my polarity???

The questions that I have now is: how shall we play along with each other in this thread? As I said, this is probably a most disharmonious thread in this forum. Why do you think it is so? What does it depend on? What is the reason for that? And how shall we solve it?

Well, for starters, how about having an objective discussion about the topic, without making it personal? How about not analyzing someone's polarity, as if you had the right to do that, or even could do that?

[Ankh]

THAT would also solve your polarity question, in my fallible opinion.

My polarity question??

WOW. I am stunned.

So now you are questioning my polarity??

You have not only made this personal, but now presume to analyze my polarity???

The questions that I have now is: how shall we play along with each other in this thread? As I said, this is probably a most disharmonious thread in this forum. Why do you think it is so? What does it depend on? What is the reason for that? And how shall we solve it?

Well, for starters, how about having an objective discussion about the topic, without making it personal? How about not analyzing someone's polarity, as if you had the right to do that, or even could do that?

I misread the below paragraph:

We wonder whether we've done 'enough' for them, whether we could have spoken up more, and we chastise ourselves for letting what others think of us be more important than those we are called to help. We sometimes lie awake at night, hearing their cries, while struggling with our own guilt - the guilt of not having done enough...the guilt of of selfishly caring more about our popularity with other humans then we do about the suffering of our other-selves...the guilt of selfishly keeping our mouths shut, rather than being willing to endure ridicule. We're no saints. We often selfishly put ourselves first; we avoid speaking up not always because of love and consideration of our meat-eating friends, but sometimes because we want to avoid the backlash of animosity that will be directed at us if we speak up. I am sorry for the many times I have been selfish, and faltered in those convictions I claim to have. It's shameful to admit how many times I have thought of myself, and wished only to avoid the very conflict so prevalent on this thread. In real life, it's much harder.

I just saw it. Instead of reading "selfishly caring more about our popularity with other humans", I read: "selfishly caring more about our polarity with other humans". So I thought that it was a question that you raised *yourself*, and was the reason to why I said: "that it would be something that would solve this question for you, *in my fallible opinion*".

*It is not something I am interested in analyzing or discussing at all.*

EDIT: I will respond to the rest of your post later.

[Shemaya]

Monica and Ankh sisters,

I can't say much because I am off to work and spent the holiday with 30 guests in my home. It's tough to read such difficulty in communicating.

Perhaps , Monica, the largest hurdle for me to overcome when reading this thread is that you seem to have said that vegetarians are making the Right choice, and omnivores are making the Wrong choice in their dietary habits. That is in a nutshell what I perceive to be the basic message that is coming across in these pages. Amidst all the points and counterpoints and info and links, etc.

If I am wrong, please correct.

I appreciate your apology and for the record I do have compassion for you, but not based on what is written here. Ido have compassion for all the abused and oppressed in this world including animals, but not because of what is written here.

My choice of being an omnivore is because of the reasons I have written, I tried to express them as best as I could.

[Monica]

I misread

OK thank you for clarifying that.

---

Perhaps , Monica, the largest hurdle for me to overcome when reading this thread is that you seem to have said that vegetarians are making the Right choice, and omnivores are making the Wrong choice in their dietary habits. That is in a nutshell what I perceive to be the basic message that is coming across in these pages. Amidst all the points and counterpoints and info and links, etc.

I have never said that, and have repeatedly stated that each person must decide for themselves, and have asked only that they consider Ra's words to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism.

I have also specified, multiple times, that aspiring to ideal doesn't necessarily mean we will always be successful in adhering to that ideal, on a daily basis. None of us is perfect, and because of the present state of this planet, it's impossible to 100% avoid animal suffering. But refusing to participate in the atrocity of factory farming, at the very least, is something that is IS doable for most of us.

So yes, the implication is surely there, that I may think it is 'wrong' for spiritually aware people to ignore the reality of suffering of this magnitude, and to contribute to the system of suffering more than is necessary for the individual metabolism.

I think it's 'wrong' for spiritually aware people to wantonly throw their litter on the street too...to steal or kill other humans...do we all agree that those things are 'wrong' for spiritually aware people to knowingly, consciously do?

If the answer is 'yes' to that question, then I am not doing anything different from anything anyone else is doing. The only difference is that we have a disagreement about which things are 'wrong' for a spiritually aware, STO oriented person, to knowingly and consciously do.

So let's say I do think that. So what? If others disagree with me, and feel totally comfortable with their choice, based on their own values and convictions (or lack thereof), then they wouldn't care what I thought. It would just be another opinion, and you know what they say about opinions, right? Everyone has one...

But the very fact that my opinion elicits such a strong emotional response, indicates that maybe, just maybe, people are not entirely comfortable with their choice.

That is for them to reflect upon, if they choose to. But it is not my responsibility as to how they respond to my opinion, when expressed in a courteous manner, which I have done throughout this entire thread, despite others being, shall we say, less than courteous.

Yes, I have been guilty of occasionally showing frustration, but hey, others have too. None of us is perfect. (shrug)

for the record I do have compassion for you, but not based on what is written here.

Are you saying hat I described didn't stir up any feelings of compassion for what vegetarians endure? That is disappointing. I shared that with an open heart, hoping that meat-eaters might at least attempt to see this from the point of view of the vegetarians, even if they don't agree or completely understand.

But I know that I cannot have any expectations from other people, so I accept it.

[Pablísimo]

Pablisímo, thank you, my brother, for your reply. Although I don't agree on some points with you, I believe that I understand them now.

No problem. And thanks to YOU for continuing the dialogue in a respectful and constructive fashion. I think it's more important to understand the other perspective than to agree with it. Agreement is not necessary for peace, but understanding sure helps! Thank you for helping get things back on track... constructively. With honor and respect for all.

This is the kind of issue where people may ultimately have to just agree to disagree. But if we can better understand the opposite perspective, I think our compassion and discernment will grow. That's enough for me.

I've also had some of my views strengthened and expanded by people on this thread who DO agree with me.

By participating here I now experience an understanding, but not only because of the people who agree with me, but also because of those who do not. I think that I am now able to understand the vegetarians with an extreme approach to the matter, and also the so called "meat-eaters" with an extreme approach to the matter. Your participation added *a lot* to an understanding of those who are VERY strong biased towards vegetarian food choice. Thank you.

Ironically, I received much the same value from this thread, even though my conclusions were different! How interesting, and delightful! I still feel firm in my vegetarian convictions, but now with less judgement and more understanding of other points of view. It makes me happy to know that you've derived some small benefit from this conversation as well, painful though it has been at times. Thank you for sharing your heartfelt perspective as well.

Basically, I consider this an appropriate place for vegetarians and meat eaters alike to discuss and debate our biased views. I look at it as an "OPT-IN" situation because no'one is forced to read the thread who does not wish to participate, which is different than billboards that you drive past and see without intentionally seeking it out.

What are your views on that? Do you consider posts from vegetarians who strongly, strongly, advocate their position and argue against the meat eating position to be too "in your face"? Or do you see a distinction between a conversation in this discussion forum and, say, the PETA billboards? Honestly, I think this thread may well be one of the very few places where it is perfectly acceptable to strongly convey our own views. I feel it is best done with the understanding that we must respect eachother we are all distorted/biased, and that we may not ultimately agree, but here seems like the right place to do it.

I don't know what PETA is, but of course it is different to pass by an add and not have any choice but to look at it, and reading threads in this forum. However, this is a community I am a part of. When there are very disharmonious energies in one place - do you ignore it? Or do you try to look at it and understand? I don't buy the arguments like: if you don't like it here, no one is forcing you to be a member of this forum, it is optional. Or - it is optional to read this thread, so don't do it if you don't like it. Are we not one? Why then create this separation, and foremost by members who are consciously trying to understand the Law of *One*? Do you understand where I am coming from? This is probably the most disharmonious thread on this forum. Why would any member ignore it?

You know, Ankh, I hadn't really thought about it like that before, but now I DO see where you are coming from. Thank you, once again, for expanding my perspective from a more limited state!! I also appreciate you making the distinction between a situation where one is forced to see a shocking ad out of the blue and a discussion forum. However I see now why it's hard for you to ignore this thread even though you aren't forced to read it. You must be sensing the discord and pain throbbing outward from this thread and it is in a place you love and involving a community you care about. How could I fault you for that? I injected myself into a conversation about another topic that was not of great concern to me when I perceived massive tension and discord recently, so I can hardly throw stones given my pretty glass house

This probably is indeed the most disharmonious thread in the forum, and the argument has sadly spilled out into half a dozen different places here. This disagreement has negatively altered the dynamics of several other important topics, as well as forum relationships in general.

Personally, I consider this to be an important issue worthy of discussion, but I find that it's almost impossible to discuss it in a constructive way as long as there are so many hurt feelings. So of course, when you put it like that, I can absolutely understand why it is hard to ignore, even if you don't particularly want to discuss the topic. For me, though, what I'd like to do is for us all to heal the hurt and get the conversation back on track. Maybe if we can turn this back into a constructive conversation, there won't be all this hurt radiating outward and compelling people to jump in who are not interested. That would truly bring it back to a state of "OPT-IN", voluntary discussion of what is admittedly a volatile issue. There are some people who just the TOPIC upsets, all dynamics with people aside. For them, perhaps this thread is not the best place to spend their time. And yet there are other people, all across the dietary spectrum who very much would like to discuss it here. I honestly think it's better to confine the discussion to one place rather than interrupt other threads across the forum with a sub-conversation about meat eating and vegetarianism. I could be wrong about this -- this is just my subjective, biased opinion. But I feel everyone has the right on this thread to say "I believe my way is the right way". Do you disagree? Am I viewing this too simplistically, perhaps?

I still believe it is possible for this to be a place to discuss, and even debate the meat / veg question in a mutually respectful fashion. I also believe it's possible for us to agree to disagree on the topic and still love eachother afterwards. Like I said earlier, if we can better understand eachother, our compassion and discernment will grow, and agreement is in no way necessary.

I have difficulties with an approach that is of an "extremist" point of view, or as you put it, "VERY direct and biased". I think now that I understand where it is coming from. However, I am still uneased when one "side" uses disrespectful tone when speaking to the "other" side, and pressing their opinions on them. I definitely think that this is something that we should discuss here, and especially if one has a strong and direct bias - this is the place for understanding!

First off, I'm so pleased you see this as a place for understanding -- that is the exact value I put upon it. Understanding, not necessarily agreement. Harmony through differences.

What's not perfectly clear to me yet is what is the appropriate approach to take? How can we discuss this topic and reach understanding unless we directly advocate our respective positions? -- no matter what dietary place we are coming from.

I really think this part is absolutely key to this whole mess. We all have a biased, subjective point of view about many things, that is a given. In a discussion forum, what is the problem with saying "I believe this way is better, and I believe that for XYZ reasons."? Honestly, is that inappropriate in an of itself? Or do we just have a problem with overall tone and delivery -- ie is the problem one of fundamental approach of advocating our belief in the correctness of our view, or just the tone and way it is phrased?

Here's my view...

When a person responds with an opposing viewpoint, I also think it's appropriate for an answer to be given. This is direct, and biased. Even if it is extremist -- which is a really subjective term, and can be perceived as hurtful -- is it inappropriate to advocate your perspective in a discussion forum on one thread? I would feel differently if there were 200 threads opened a day on the topic and dozens others hijacked, as we recently saw in something unrelated. But just one? That seems reasonable to me, so long as it is done in a mutually respectful fashion.

I sense that some (not all) of the hurt feelings from meat eaters centers around the fact that some of us believe we are RIGHT. What I don't understand is why this topic of vegetarianism vs meat eating is different than any other topic where we believe our point of view to be correct? I mean, I honestly think that the Doors is the best rock band ever. Should I hide that fact in a thread discussing which music we like the best? And should I be surprised if other people believe just as strongly that it's really Jimi Hendrix and the Doors are awful? As long as I do it respectfully, is it wrong for me to honestly, genuinely believe that anyone who doesn't see the Doors as the greatest rock band ever is wrong? Even though I KNOW that's just my biased, subjective opinion, it really is what I think! Is it wrong for me to say that? Does my belief in my inherent correctness on the Doors make me or you any less the Creator?

I sincerely want to discuss this dietary issue peacefully, and with respect for all parties and viewpoints. But by definition, in order to argue my case I have to come from the perspective that I'm biased, yes, but I BELIEVE my vegetarian view to be the RIGHT one. Is this not appropriate forum behavior?

Some of the hurt amongst the vegetarians is because our very right to believe as we do is constantly challenged. It has honestly seemed to me, at times, that some of the critics will not be satisfied unless the vegetarians say "We don't believe meat eating is wrong."

To me, expecting that kind of concession is just as unreasonable as to ask a meat eater to say "We believe being vegetarian is better."

I think it's reasonable here to agree to disagree, not for anyone to set aside their convictions. How do you see it?

Never entered my mind that you would trap me, my brother.

Ankh, thank you for that vote of confidence, as it implies a certain level of trust, that I also feel about you. We don't know eachother very well, but I view you as a person worthy of respect, consideration, and even admiration. I clearly don't agree with you on diet, but this fact is far outweighed by my overall view of you as the Creator and appreciation for your Beingness. I enjoy your warm energy and your thoughtful posts, and this colors my perception of you, but in a good way. I think it helps me to "hear" your side of the argument even though I disagree. You see, you gave me the benefit of the doubt -- and I think that part of the reason for that is that there is mutual respect and an overall harmonious forum relationship with me. Would this have been possible if there was tension between us? Maybe, maybe not, but I think an underpinning of respect goes along way towards more constructive conversations.

I wonder if there would have been less misunderstandings on this thread if there had been better relationships between participants?

I believe if all of us working together could RESTORE some respect and harmony in our basic forum relationships with everyone here, that the conversation would get back on track. Whether we do that is up to all of us -- as a group and individually to decide. We can keep devolving into hurt feelings and arguments, or we can resume [b]constructively[/i] discussing our views on the topic of meat eating in the spiritual context, if we choose it. I just don't think we can discuss constructively anymore without reinforcing our foundation of all Other-Selves are the Creator and every one of us has the absolute right to our own opinion.

I can't speak for others, but what I believe that I have observed here is the lack of the respect that has been missing many times in this thread. Do you agree with that observation?

Yes, I do, I have observed the same thing. Though I would make the distinction that I have seen it coming from both meat eaters AND vegetarians, not just one other the other. It pains me, especially because I really enjoy the energy and thought processes of a whole host of people that are divided on this issue. I don't want to judge anybody and reject viewing other people as simply a dietary position.

I believe that any topic of discussion, no matter how volatile or sensitive it is, could and should be discussed in this forum; but when/if members apply respect and consideration when speaking to each other, no matter how their opinions are unlike each other, there will be more harmonious discussions.

I completely, 100% agree with this. This holds true for any discussion here, but maybe it is especially important for volatile topics that we all make an extra effort to be respectful and considerate towards eachother.

For me, though, advocating for animal rights is part of my growth process. I see animals as Other-Selves, and right now there is a vast system of suffering and cruelty in place on earth to raise meat that I don't believe is necessary. I "hear" this dull throbbing scream in the ether from millions of other beings, and it affects me. It could be my own internal distortions, of course, but this is who I am and this is how I feel about it. I don't expect agreement about my views, but I hope that understanding of where I am coming from is at least possible.

Thank you for telling this. I believe that I, now, gained understanding for those coming from the place you are coming from.

Then I consider that I have achieved something positive. If you better understand the place I am coming from, you will probably find it easier to show compassion and be less judgemental even if you disagree. At least, this is the effect that hearing your perspective had upon me. I am more at peace and have a less one-sided view, even if my basic opinion remains.

I say again, agreement is in no way necessary for peace and understanding.

Totally understand what you mean, just don't agree with it.

I am thinking that *if* people do notice what I do and do not eat, it might make them uneasy and concerned that I am not eating what they have to offer. Out of concern for other selves, I would choose in the future when/if going veg, to not announce my at that time vegetarian food choice.

I really enjoy reading "I understand what you meant but don't agree". I really do, because at least it's constructive progress!! What this tells me is that we both sometimes find ourselves in a tricky situation where there are multiple ways of handling it and Other-selves (and our own Self) are important in the equation. It means you have a different way of handling the confusing catalyst of 3D than I do... but your intentions -- to honor Self and Other-Self -- are the same as my own, we just have different approaches for dealing with it. And that's OK.

I also believe that there exists pride many times when vegetarians convey their food choice, and I believe that taking no pride in any of the choices is the right path (for me).

I have seen this pride you speak of from some vegetarians as well. Each person is different, but all I can say is I do not consider myself in any way superior to people who do still eat meat. Seriously, we are total equals. However, I am proud of the fact that I made a choice that that I believe does good in this world, especially when that choice comes with some negative social consequences. Does that make me better in ANY way? Of course not! But can you see perhaps why a vegetarian might be proud of making a choice that they believe will truly help?

Again, thank you for sharing. I don't share these distortions, but I understand now.

And my sincerest thanks to you as well.

Alas, I have never been to fair Sweden, but I hope to make it there one day.

If you ever do, it would be a true honor to meet you, my dear another self.

The honor would be all mine!! I'm still talking myself into going to Homecoming this year, but who knows.

So, I can't comment on the specific term, but I have encountered the term "biological" in other countries in Northern (Well, NW) Europe, such as Holland & Germany. Perhaps that is what you mean?

It is called "ecological" in Sweden. Don't know about the "biological" term.

Well thank you for educating us on this Swedish term!! It sounds better than both Organic and Biological if it really does come with the animal treatment regulations that you described. This is exactly why it is so helpful to have so many different voices.

Sister, I think I share your struggle with this. If there is one thing that pushes my buttons, it's people forcing their views on another. We had a new member who in the past spent alot of time pressing his views on others in a hundred different threads, and I really struggled with acceptance there. I had to pray and meditate on him daily for weeks before I finally got some balance and clarity, and love returned.

Did you see it as an "in your face/throat" technique?

Yes, I did. I felt like it was the equivalent of an evangelist pounding on my door and shouting at me and my neighbors that they must follow the one true way and see the "folly" of their ways for any who disagreed. I also felt it to be ironic to hear someone claim advanced development while simultaneously demonstrating a lower level of development by that very "in your face" behavior. It did not seem respectful especially because the information was not requested.

But one major difference was this person was posting up on average a dozen threads per day about this topic and was interrupting other conversations. Here it is confined to one single thread.

To me, this thread is not like the PETA billboards where people are forced to constantly see the views of others and have it in your face.

Here in this thread, I don't really see the vegetarians using what I would call "in your face" tactics, and in fact is partly why I wanted to clarify with you earlier about the billboards. I do see a difference in the context -- the setting -- of where this conversation is taking place. One thread, clearly marked. It's just that the emotional discord has started overshadowing the actual topic and I think people are reacting more to subjective inner feelings than what is actually being said.

I also think that the information is requested by participation here. When we voluntarily join a discussion in a clearly marked topic with eachother that interests us, I believe the very fact that it is done in a discussion forum invites Other-selves to share their perspective.

I understand what you are saying here. Definitely! I found peace and understanding in that due the changes I experienced in that person (edit: I mean changes in the approach, and that these same changes apply to myself as well. That there were changes in my approach as well). And now, hopefully, I am very close to finding it in this thread as well. It doesn't change the fact though, that I do experience difficulties when meeting this kind of the technique; when people are pressing their opinions upon others with no consideration and/or respect for another self, or whom they are discussing with.

Do you understand me now? And how I struggle, in the light of the above by you described experiences, with that in this thread?

Yes, I think I do see your point here. I can see some of the parallels and why this thread would affect you in a similar fashion. And maybe the fact that I'm also suddenly in the middle of all this is because I'm working on some similar issues. Perhaps, in a way, it is helpful to both of us that we are discussing a topic now from two different specific perspectives and yet are starting to see how it fits into a wider lesson of acceptance of people we perceive as too disrespectful and pushy.

I want to thank you for taking the time to explain yourself and your perspective. In these last posts I have really appreciated your openness and willingness to find some common ground and mutual understanding.

It's moments like these that give me hope it is possible to disagree and yet still have harmony and mutual respect.

I'm really working on this right now, so maybe I can share animal Other-selves. I doesn't justify my or their behavior, but may help you to forgive it. I hope so anyway.

Thank you for sharing, my brother.

And thank YOU for sharing as well, dear sister.

Love to all

[Diana]

I would like to remind everyone that we are discussing meat-eating in this thread (and animals, and the implications), not Monica.

If anyone would like to start a thread, "The problem with Monica and the way she communicates," it would be better to discuss Monica there. Or perhaps chime in on the thread devoted to differences in communication styles.

In the meantime, a little understanding toward Monica would be welcome, as we all struggle with communication here.

Also, while discussing what some call fanaticism has a place in the conversation in reference, it is not the topic. The topic is meat-eating. Anyone may start a thread on "PETA, good or bad."

Would it be possible for all of us to get past accusations? Logic alone will tell us that while PETA exists as an activist org, not all vegetarians are PETA, just as not all Muslims are terrorists. To all those asking for respect, compassion and respect might also be extended to Monica, and even to the PETA activists. If I, as a vegetarian, can feel compassion for people raising and slaughtering animals cruelly (and I do based on the idea that they do it out of "ignorance"--in other words, not knowing what they do), even though it hurts me to the very core to know it goes on, then I think the consciously evolving STO-oriented people on this site can find some compassion for Monica and animal activists.

I respect all opinions here. That does not mean I agree with them. They do, however, add to my sum of knowledge and understanding.

[Tenet Nosce]

I have never said that, and have repeatedly stated that each person must decide for themselves, and have asked only that they consider Ra's words to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism.

As far as I can recall, I haven't seen anybody argue against this...?

In fact, I thought I was arguing in support of this by encouraging people to go within and connect with their inner diet guru, rather than relying so heavily on external sources. And, as I also recall, you agreed with this view.

As Pablisímo pointed out:

I think it's more important to understand the other perspective than to agree with it.

It would appear that people can actually agree with each other, and yet not understand each other. Perhaps it has something to do with those archetypes projecting themselves into the situation...?

I've pondered quite a bit on this, and though I haven't yet arrived at a resolution, I do think I have a better understanding of what sets me off in this discussion. Or any discussion for that matter... veganism is just one example.

The first is the notion that a person can speak/feel on behalf of another. I have a very strong reaction toward claims that somebody knows how the animals feel, or how Gaia feels, or how another member feels, or how *I* feel. This seems to me as setting oneself up as an authority over others and *to me* feels like a boundary violation. In my opinion, one should only speak for themselves unless they have been specifically appointed as a representative for others.

The second is the notion that the ends justify the means. I get really squirrely when I perceive that excuses and allowances are being made for others who employ below-the-belt tactics for a "good" cause. It reminds me of nations that are complicit in terrorist acts originating from within their own borders. "Officially" the governments will condemn these acts, but the truth is that they are looking the other way, and that constitutes to an approval in my book.

Now that being said, I would like to take responsibility for my projecting these onto you, or anybody else in this thread. That is all.

[Monica]

As far as I can recall, I haven't seen anybody argue against this...?

The prevailing attitude I perceive from the most vocal of the meat-eaters is "I can eat as much meat as I want...it is my right...it is my choice" with no distinction made as to how much, or whether it is truly necessary for the individual metabolism.

No matter how you slice it, there is no way it could be argued that people 'need' bacon for breakfast, a hamburger for lunch, and chicken for dinner. Except for maybe very rare medical conditions, no one needs that much meat. Americans eat something like 4 times as much meat as the Chinese, and have correspondingly 4 times as much heart disease, obesity, cancer, diabetes, etc. (If I remember correctly...don't quote me on the exact percentage, but it was something like that.)

In fact, I thought I was arguing in support of this by encouraging people to go within and connect with their inner diet guru, rather than relying so heavily on external sources. And, as I also recall, you agreed with this view.

That's not quite accurate. I agreed that it would be helpful to 'go within' to ascertain the root issues pertaining to addictions, etc. but I strongly disagreed with doing that, to decide on diet. I explained why I disagreed: Because of addictions. When there is an addiction, the voice that will be heard is the voice of the addiction. And I stated that meat is another addiction.

[Pablísimo]

However, he clearly feels some hurt and insult, and we bear some responsibility for that as well as him.

Is the reverse also true?

I felt hurt and insult too. I feel unaccepted for who I am, and I feel judged for having strong convictions.

Yes, it is absolutely also true. Though the last thing I want to do is point fingers at ANYBODY, the simple truth remains that you also have been treated very unkindly at times in this painful conversation. In fact, I would go so far as to say you have received the most amount of negative energy of any single person in all of this and it has broken my heart to watch.

Part of the reason is that you've been advocating your view for so long, sometimes all alone, so you've been the only target, but it doesn't mean it is fair. You have been mistreated, misjudged, and publicly lynched, and I think Monkey and the others remember those moments when they were less than kind as well. I have been amazed at the level of restraint that you've shown in the face of very unkind words, to be frank.

But I am always an advocate for taking responsibility for our part of any conflict we find ourselves in rather than pointing the blame. I think, for example, it would be healthy for both you and Monkey to take responsibility for your own weak moments and forgive the other for theirs, because it's happened in both directions.

Unfortunately, because you have been so mistreated, I've noticed that your posts here don't always reflect your usual centeredness. I see that it springs from a well of hurt feelings and judgement that has been directed at you -- no, heaped upon you -- as well. I think everyone's feelings are valid, and you are no exception. Your hurt and pain is real and I would love to see the validity of your feelings acknowledged by those you've had conflicts with as well. This shouldn't be "pile up on Monica" time, just because you've had some weak, exhausted, moments.. Your overall conduct has been very, very kind, which is why those few and far between weak moments pain me, because they distort the overall picture.

Nobody has to agree on meat eating to admit that, intentionally or unintentionally, we've hurt eachother and should try to make peace. The peace is more important than the conversation at this moment, but I believe that once peace reigns again the conversation will resume, invigorated. Acknowledging the Other-Self and the validity of their feelings is a healing, healthy thing to do for us all. It's how Creators roll

When Monkey commented that he didn't feel loved, or even allowed to be loved, for his views, it really shocked me. When I saw that level of hurt from an Other-Self, my immediate reaction was to send him some love and clarify to him that he was loved. I didn't care how much of a role he or you or anybody played in it, I just sensed an Other-Self suffering and wanted to reach out.

As a result, I probably wasn't as balanced and fair in that post as I should have been. The simple truth is that everyone involved in these conflicts needs to take some responsibility, and I publicly apologize if my words seemed to single you out.

Now, I sense an equal level of hurt from you. Just like I wanted to acknkowledge the validity of 3dm's and others' feelings, I'd like to acknowledge yours as well. I sincerely, sincerely hope I am not the only one who is reaching out to you now. Achieving peace and mutual healing is not something I can achieve without some support. I am so sorry for all the negativity and accusations hurled at you. In this particular case, I haven't been doing the majority of it, but even I just made a post that seemed accusatory. It's just so easy to do in this environment, and I apologize to you, both for what I've said and what others have said that hurt you. Your feelings are valid, and you are such a wonderful human being I want to recognize that fact.

@Everyone
Let's put down the 'Like' button, forget what side we're on and cross this invisible aisle. Better yet, let's tear down that invisible aisle and embrace across the line that once separated us.

We ALL bear some collective responsibility for the tone and content of this thread. This mess isn't all Monica's fault and it's not fair to blame her. I hope my post didn't seem to be saying that.

But I do hope that we can put aside the need to define exactly who did what to whom and just forgive eachother.

I'm asking you to help me see the Creator in everyone who has ever posted in this thread.

Done! You asked me this. Will the others be asked this as well?

Yes -- EVERYONE PLEASE HELP ME. I need assistance to remember to see the Creator in everyone who participates here. There are going to be comments from people I disagree with, there are going to be hurt feelings, there will be tension... and in these moments most especially, we will need good examples of mutual respect of and love through the disagreement. We will all need reminders to help see the Creator in everyone, and this doesn't just go for Monica. We all have to work together to help eachother with this.

My appeal is to everyone -- please help me -- and all of us - to remember to see the Creator in everyone.

This thread is challenging and I think it will take more compassion and kindness than we all normally display to continue discussing this in a healthy and constructive way.

I am saddened that who I am - a person with convictions - has somehow caused others to feel uncomfortable. I am sorry for the times when I felt exhausted from staying in this intense thread for 3 years, sometimes with little or no support from other vegetarians, and allowed my exhaustion to cloud my judgment. I am also sorry for the times when I felt frustrated at being repeatedly misunderstood and misrepresented, and allowed my frustration to affect the tone of my words. I am also sorry for allowing my sense of urgency about helping save our younger brethren from daily torture, to affect my interactions with my other brethren, who are unconsciously contributing to that torture. I am sorry for being confused as to why they have reacted with such resistance to something that seems very obvious to me and the other vegetarians. I am also sorry for allowing myself to feel hurt, judged, ridiculed, and ganged up on. I am sorry for then allowing that hurt to develop into judgment of others; I didn't feel judgment towards them for eating meat, but I did feel judgment towards them for their non-acceptance of my convictions. I am sorry for not accepting non-acceptance.

I am sorry for all these things.

I'm not sorry for being who I am. I'm not sorry for having strong convictions and being passionate about them. I'm sorry for any words spoken unkindly, but I'm not sorry that my words, when spoken kindly, still caused feelings of guilt to arise in some people, because I am not responsible for that. I'm not sorry for passionately sharing my views on this topic, in a thread devoted to this topic.

I accept those who eat meat on a daily basis. I am saddened that, apparently, many meat-eaters in this community are unable to accept me and the other vegetarians. They are unable to accept that we have strong convictions. With the exception of only a couple of them, none were able to say that this discussion had fostered greater understanding and compassion for vegetarians, despite the vegetarians sharing their increased compassion and understanding for them. This has bothered me. I didn't feel judgment towards them eating meat, but I did feel judgment towards their unwillingness or inability to accept the vegetarians. That is still judgment, nonetheless. For this, I am sorry.

Monica, that is more than I expected of you or had any right to ask for, after all you've done. All I really meant was try to show even greater kindness than you already do when responding in this thread, but this is something much more. You just bared your soul for us, publicly. You distilled down your inner conflict and feelings so very clearly. It shows reflection, humility, and great love for other-selves that you are still, even now, trying to explain yourself and have a balanced view about a topic that is very emotive for you, as it is for me.

Did anyone else just notice Monica pouring out her heart and soul here? She's just as wounded by the non-acceptance of her views and lack of understanding as the others. I sincerely hope that my Brothers & Sisters of Bring4th will respond to this outpouring with an equal measure of compassion.

The constant implication on this thread is that you're some kind of fanatic and zealot. Calling you an "extremist" is hurtful, in my opinion. Though I understand why some are using the term -- and in fact why they see it as appropriate usage -- , subjectively, I find it judgemental, divisive and hurtful. I wish we could leave it out of the conversation. Passionate is fair, but extremist carries with it some heavy judgement.

You also race a question that I have been wondering in my own mind:

Can we be accepted even though we believe vegetarianism is a better path? Can we be accepted without letting go of that conviction, as long as it is in an attitude of non-judgement and respect for those who do not agree?

Can you deal with the fact I think The Doors are the best rock band? Or that Ashana is the queen of New Age music? Or that Reiki is helpful? That Astrology is valid? Or that meditating at least twice a week is important? Honestly, I have all these strong opinions, why should vegetarianism be any different?

Are we allowed to believe it's a better path and still find community acceptance?

I have a confession to make here. I have been struggling within for the last 6 months to ask a question in the homecoming thread about the meals. I find myself wanting to go, but I'm a little concerned that I might be expected to eat the home cooked meal that contains meat or else cause some hurt or insult if I don't eat. I'm curious if the restaurants nearby have a vegetarian option. I shouldn't have that level of anxiety about simply asking about the food -- because it's not as if I object to people eating meat at Homecoming, which I don't. But I don't feel like the vegetarian perspective is respected enough, even in this community, to feel safe to ask the question outside of this thread.

Maybe this is why I find this thread to be so valuable. Everywhere we go there is judgement and non-acceptance directed at us, so it's nice to have a place where it's OK to advocate our position and discuss it with intelligent, thoughtful, and spiritual people.

This is just an echo of the non-acceptance that Monica seems to feel. I myself feel judged for my opinion and feel, rightly or wrongly, that were I to ask a question about the food in that other thread, that it would anger many people.

I see the Creator in all our brothers and sisters, including our younger brothers and sisters - the animals - and including those who kill our younger brothers and sisters, or who allow someone else to kill them so they can eat them. I don't like this, but I do see the Creator in them, nonetheless. I am sorry for not always expressing this. I do see the Creator in all of them, regardless of what they do, and regardless of whether they see the Creator in the younger brothers and sisters who end up on their dining room table.

Thank you for making this clear, sister. I think we need to try even harder than usual to keep this in the forefront of our minds at all times -- That the Creator is present in all Other-Selves. Even though it's hard, and we get tired, this topic evokes such passion and emotion in people, that we're going to have to keep shining the Light of the Creator so brightly that it even illumines this murky topic.

I think overall you do a great job at that, but you can do better. I can do better. Monkey and Shemaya and Tenet and Pickle can do better. We are all capable of remembering our Oneness in the midst of this discussion. Thank you, thank you for doing your part!

@Everyone
We are One. We are all Brothers & Sisters

Yes, and that includes the cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys and deer. They are our brothers and sisters too. They're just younger.

I completely agree, of course. The challenge for us is to remember to honor both our animal other-selves without alienating our human-other selves.

We may not always succeed in this, but our intentions are good and we're making the effort.

@Everyone, I don't know what your perceptions are of me or my recent posts. I am sure I have made some mistakes, but I hope you see my intentions. I want to establish the right of all of us to have our own subjective opinions that are valid. I want to acknowledge that t here is substance to the hurt feelings on both sides and make efforts to reach out and help the group healing. I want us to discuss this topic, if we wish, but in a constructive and compassionate way. I sincerely want to start discussing the pros and cons of meat eating in the spiritual context again, but not see it devolve into a steaming pile of hurt feelings.


In closing...
My subjective opinion is that Vegetarians have every right to be passionate!!! And everyone else has every right to passionately disagree!!! Agreement is not necessary for acceptance of eachother.

But whatever your convictions, I love you, accept you, and respect you. That is all I really have to say.

Love to all

[Tenet Nosce]

The prevailing attitude I perceive from the most vocal of the meat-eaters is "I can eat as much meat as I want...it is my right...it is my choice" with no distinction made as to how much, or whether it is truly necessary for the individual metabolism.

Is this an accurate representation of what you perceive my attitude to be?

[Monica]

The prevailing attitude I perceive from the most vocal of the meat-eaters is "I can eat as much meat as I want...it is my right...it is my choice" with no distinction made as to how much, or whether it is truly necessary for the individual metabolism.

Is this an accurate representation of what you perceive my attitude to be?

No. That was a very general statement, referring to anyone who isn't interested in doing what they can to at least reduce their contribution to the meat industry. Not directed at you personally, and in fact probably doesn't even apply to you.

I really and truly do prefer to avoid ever singling anyone out, so please assume that my statements are almost always intended as general statements, not directed at anyone personally.

---

Wow, Pablisimo, you did it again! You got me all teary-eyed!! Thank you, dear brother! You ROCK!!!

And thank you Diana too! You ROCK too!

And not just because we agree about vegetarianism!

[Tenet Nosce]

I would like to share this timely message from the "Montague Keen Foundation". I am of the understanding this is permitted under guideline 3(b) as being:

In alignment with the principles of spiritual evolution espoused by Confederation sources.

I understand this post will be subject to careful and conscientious moderator discretion, and defer to their wise discernment should moderation action be taken.

08 Apr 12

Accept full responsibility without apportioning blame to anyone for the actions of the person, persons or collective that is expressing negativity towards you.

Ask "What is it that is within me that is causing them to behave in that way. I accept total responsibility for it now." THIS GIVES YOU POWER OVER IT.

Then, to your infinite self and the universe, say: I LOVE YOU. That is to yourself, the universe and the positive energy behind the creation of that which is negative.

Once you have expressed LOVE, forgiveness is inevitable. Then you say, from the bottom of your heart, PLEASE FORGIVE ME.

This sets an inevitable train of forgiveness and healing in motion. You know that you and even the perpetrator are forgiven. THIS HEALS YOU AND DISEMPOWERS THE ABILITY OF THE PERPETRATOR TO EXPRESS ANY FURTHER NEGATIVITY TOWARDS YOU. So, to yourself and the universe, say "THANK YOU" and now let it go.

You can repeat this until you feel the relief. It must be done with a pure non-blaming, non-judgmental state of mind. It is most powerful when done as stated. It always works. Do it.

[Oldern]

Monica, may I ask you what "those" meat eaters have to do with vegetarians....at all?

Because I have been bluntly terrified at this whole thread for days, seeing that no matter what spiritual evolution we are going through, one can still easily find one more concept that creates separation, not unification. Because whenever I see lengthy posts, directed at each other, dissecting opinions point-by-point, always countering, always rectifying each and every single statament, I get "scared". (Not really scared, of course, but mildly confused)

Now, I am not judging, and that is the hardest part. Everyone who feels like they need to get this argument out of their systems should feel free to do so, but my two cents to this matter is that the "not this OR that - this AND that" philosophy ALWAYS applies to everything, and therefore, no topic is immune to it. Not a single topic. Not even vegetarianism.

So my point: I do not care who validates what I do. With anything! Yes, it can be lonely sometimes. It can be sad sometimes. But when I keep up doing what I am doing, I end up at a point or a place in time/space where suddenly, I am around people that finally accept what I do because I allowed myself to do so. And that is Bring4th when it comes to spirituality. I do not see why things should be different for vegetarians (unless they want it to be different.). And I can guarantee one thing: the more confrontational one is when it comes to dietary choices, the more walls one will run into. Guaranteed. It is the very fabric of our existence.

Drop the shields first. Drop it, even if you are only bashing out to the attackers. That is the only way to really stop a fight : D

[3DMonkey]

@pablisimo

I have voiced an opinion in this thread that isn't agreed by anyone. I'll bring it up now as a topic motivator.

You've already labeled me as a belief system, but I am more than that. (no hurts)

What I have to say falls into that label, but please don't lump me in a label. I truly believe the following, as a person.

I don't think I contribute to anything negative when I buy factory meat or fast food. What is, is the here and now. The spirit comes from the inside out, and doesn't travel three persons removed into my choice of the moment. I don't think a purchase supports an industry. I don't think restraint supports the abandonment of an industry.

[Pablísimo]

@pablisimo

I have voiced an opinion in this thread that isn't agreed by anyone. I'll bring it up now as a topic motivator.

You've already labeled me as a belief system, but I am more than that. (no hurts)

What I have to say falls into that label, but please don't lump me in a label.

Well, that was never, ever my intention. Words are clumsy, and I don't always use them as well as I could. I made an honest effort to clarify that I do NOT see you as just a belief about diet, but as a complex multi-dimensional Other-Self. I never meant otherwise, and I apologize to you for doing so. It was not my intent to label you and I will do my best to avoid it in the future. Please continue to correct me if you find me doing this in the future -- I'm a fallible human after all and may not always be clear.

What I have to say falls into that label, but please don't lump me in a label. I truly believe the following, as a person.

I don't think I contribute to anything negative when I buy factory meat or fast food. What is, is the here and now. The spirit comes from the inside out, and doesn't travel three persons removed into my choice of the moment. I don't think a purchase supports an industry. I don't think restraint supports the abandonment of an industry.

Here we get back to the 'meat' of the discussion, and I thank you for moving the conversation back in a constructive direction. I'd like to preface my response by saying, OK: Your perspective is valid for you. I totally disagree with you on this, and yet overall like, love and honor you as the Creator. It's OK that we have a different view.

Personally, I think that when you regularly buy, barter, or trade something on a regular basis, you create a demand for that item, whatever it is. The more people that do this, the more the demand grows.

Take for example immigrant situations. 20 years ago, you would have been hard pressed to get a good burrito and many Mexican specialty items in my tiny one-horse town. Thanks to immigration, demand for these items has grown considerably and now you can get an authentic burrito at no less than 5 different establishments and there is a Mexican specialty store. The reason? Demand, of course! If people weren't buying it, and asking it, it wouldn't be available. And in 3D things don't just appear out of thin air...sometimes they take a system or a process to produce.

I also think there is an ENORMOUS difference in the conditions in which animals are raised and slaughtered on factory farms versus small, humane, and sustainable operations, such as Austin's. One only needs to visit the farms in question to see how much happier and healthier the animals are when kept in compassionate and sustainable farms versus agri-business meat factories.

I believe that what I choose to purchase does have an impact. By buying from factory farms, I'm supporting what goes behind it. By buying from small, sustainable, and humane farms I'm supporting a system that, in my subjective view, creates less suffering. By abstaining from meat altogether, I am creating a demand for more vegetarian food and reducing the demand altogether for meat.

Sure, I could be wrong on all this... and it's my subjective opinion. But this is how I feel about it. If you'd like to further explain your opinion and perspective, I will read it over and carefully consider it, the same as I hope you just did with mine.

But if, in the end, we find we just don't see eye to eye on it, I guess we'll have to label that "just fine".

Namaste, Brother.

The first is the notion that a person can speak/feel on behalf of another. I have a very strong reaction toward claims that somebody knows how the animals feel, or how Gaia feels, or how another member feels, or how *I* feel. This seems to me as setting oneself up as an authority over others and *to me* feels like a boundary violation. In my opinion, one should only speak for themselves unless they have been specifically appointed as a representative for others.

Hmm, I find that I agree with you for the most part on this, especially amongst humans, but one piece perplexes me. When I say that I find animals suffering in factory farms, it's because of the squalid conditions, the moans and cries, and the signs of disease that I base this upon. It seems reasonable, even if it is subjective, for me to conclude that these animals are suffering. I would recognize it if a person speaking Chinese was suffering, even if I didn't understand the words.

Or did you mean more the other people and Gai on this? I feel like you make a good point here overall, I just think it's reasonable to conclude that an animal is suffering based on what our five senses can tell us.

It may be that my bias on this topic is clouding me from seeing how the two relate, I concede that. But do you dispute the basic premise that I am making that these animals suffer because we don't know with 100% certainty that is what they're experiencing?

If you do, again, that's ok, I just am trying to understand and find other perspectives interesting and helpful.


Love to all

[Monica]

Monica, may I ask you what "those" meat eaters have to do with vegetarians....at all?

Nothing to do with vegetarians, but everything to do with the atmosphere on this thread.

Because I have been bluntly terrified at this whole thread for days,

Gosh, terrified?

seeing that no matter what spiritual evolution we are going through, one can still easily find one more concept that creates separation, not unification.

Concepts are neutral, in my opinion. It is how they are perceived, and what one chooses to do with that information, that either creates separation or unification. It is up to each person to choose what they wish to focus on.

Because whenever I see lengthy posts, directed at each other, dissecting opinions point-by-point, always countering, always rectifying each and every single statament, I get "scared". (Not really scared, of course, but mildly confused)

Then it sounds like it is the style of communication that bothers you, more than what is actually being said.

You aren't alone. This thread explores this in great depth. I highly recommend it:

Life on Planet Earth > Cognitive Distortions and Forum Relationships

To me, point-by-point communication is a way to honor the comments made by the other person.

But some people are bothered by this style, as is discussed in the aforementioned thread.

So my point: I do not care who validates what I do. With anything!

Great! Many here do.

[Tenet Nosce]

The first is the notion that a person can speak/feel on behalf of another. I have a very strong reaction toward claims that somebody knows how the animals feel, or how Gaia feels, or how another member feels, or how *I* feel. This seems to me as setting oneself up as an authority over others and *to me* feels like a boundary violation. In my opinion, one should only speak for themselves unless they have been specifically appointed as a representative for others.

Hmm, I find that I agree with you for the most part on this, especially amongst humans, but one piece perplexes me. When I say that I find animals suffering in factory farms, it's because of the squalid conditions, the moans and cries, and the signs of disease that I base this upon. It seems reasonable, even if it is subjective, for me to conclude that these animals are suffering. I would recognize it if a person speaking Chinese was suffering, even if I didn't understand the words.

Thanks for your response! Allow me to clarify:

I agree that these particular animals in these factory farms are suffering. When I have watched video footage of what goes on inside factory farms, is seems quite undeniable to me that the animals there are greatly suffering, and needlessly at that.

What I am referring to is commentary about how "The Animals" as a group feel about this suffering. My position is agnostic on that. I don't know how "The Animals" feel about it, and I don't buy into the idea that anybody else knows either. There is all manner of suffering which goes on which is quite incomprehensible to me.

What I observe is that the vast majority of animals incarnated on this planet are not living in factory farms. Therefore, perhaps there is some higher purpose to this, or some reasoning that is incomprehensible to my 3D mind. I could conjecture several reasons why this might be, but I feel that would most likely not be of benefit at this point in the conversation.

The second thing is that I don't quite grasp the link between observing the horrors of factory farming and the conclusion that any eating of animals, whatsoever, is "wrong". What about humanely-raised animals? What about insects? What about worms? What about shrimp?

I think there is a huge gap in logic there, and my experience is that whenever this gap is pointed out, the response tends to be more emotional dramatism. I view this as a distraction technique.

In my experience, I find that many vegans insist on making the discussion about eating "The Animals", when in actuality it really isn't about "The Animals" but only about certain animals, raised in certain conditions, and the ones that appear most closely related to humans at that. I find this to be disingenuous.

Or did you mean more the other people and Gai on this? I feel like you make a good point here overall, I just think it's reasonable to conclude that an animal is suffering based on what our five senses can tell us.

Yes, I think it is reasonable to conclude that an animal is suffering based on what we can observe. I don't think it is reasonable to make generalizations to all animals based on the observations of a few. If I stick my finger into a termite nest, and eat the termites, I don't think those termites have suffered all that much. And as far as I am aware, not a single vegan has risen up in defense of the termites, or any other insect used as food.

But do you dispute the basic premise that I am making that these animals suffer because we don't know with 100% certainty that is what they're experiencing?

I don't dispute your basic premise. I am disputing the generalizations that are made from this basic premise.

Thus... "Eating factory-farmed animals who have needlessly suffered is wrong." is a statement I can live with, and even agree with.

"Eating animals is wrong." is a statement I heartily disagree with.

[BrownEye]

I don't know how "The Animals" feel, and I don't buy into the idea that anybody else knows either.

I tend to ask those on the other side of the veil about things I can't know on this side. Beyond that it is sometimes possible to tell through empathy.

An example is an experience of my wife. She picked up on a strong feeling of fear coming from the area just outside our front door. As she went out the door wondering why our tree was radiating fear she could hear machinery down the street. A block away there was a tree clearing company chopping branches off of a tree. My wife looked back at our tree and knew exactly what was going on. This was the first time she had experienced this, and normally only feels strong feelings of happiness come from the tree when we are around it. It is also interesting that our tree does not put out any fear when I am pruning it.

Thus... "Eating factory-farmed animals who have needlessly suffered is wrong." is a statement I can live with, and even agree

Maybe instead of right/wrong it should be looked at as right/left?

[Tenet Nosce]

I'm curious to know... is anybody here genuinely offended and/or horrified by the animal killing/eating in this video clip?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entomophagy

Entomophagy (from Greek ἔντομος éntomos, "insect(ed)", and φᾰγεῖν phăgein, "to eat") is the consumption of insects as food. Insects are eaten by many animals, but the term is generally used to refer to human consumption of insects; animals that eat insects are known as insectivores. There are also some species of carnivorous plants that derive nutrients from insects.

Human insect-eating is common in cultures in parts of the world, such as North, Central and South America; and Africa, Asia, Australia and New Zealand. Over 1,000 insects are known to be eaten in 80% of the world's nations.[1] However, in some societies insect-eating is uncommon or even taboo.[2][3][4][5] Today insect eating is rare in the developed world, but insects remain a popular food in many developing regions of Latin America, Africa, Asia and Oceania.

Some of the more popular insects and arachnids eaten around the world include crickets, cicadas, grasshoppers, ants, a variety of beetle grubs (such as mealworms), the larvae of the darkling beetle or rhinoceros beetle,[6] a variety of species of caterpillar (such as bamboo worms, mopani worms, silkworms and waxworms), scorpions and tarantulas. Entomophagy is sometimes defined broadly to include the practice of eating arthropods that are not insects, such as arachnids (tarantulas mainly) and myriapods (centipedes mainly).[7] There are 1,417 known species of arthropods, including arachnids, that are edible to humans.[8] The term is not used for the consumption of other arthropods, specifically crustaceans like crabs, lobsters and shrimps.

[Monica]

I'm curious to know... is anybody here genuinely offended and/or horrified by the animal killing/eating in this video clip?

We've discussed this previously, you and I, on this thread.

When/if people start raising termites by the billions only to slaughter them, and we have restaurants sprouting up all over the country serving termite entrees, let me know and I'll be happy to start a 'termite cruelty awareness' organization.

Until then, I don't find it relevant, to be honest.

[Tenet Nosce]

We've discussed this previously, you and I, on this thread.

Yes, you and I have. But I haven't discussed it with others participating in this conversation. I'm interested to know their opinions on insect eating. Especially the vegans.

Until then, I don't find it relevant, to be honest.

Then, why did you respond to the post? Moreover, why did you respond to the post without answering the question?

---

Maybe instead of right/wrong it should be looked at as right/left?

Go on...? What do you mean by this?

[Shemaya]

for the record I do have compassion for you, but not based on what is written here.

Are you saying hat I described didn't stir up any feelings of compassion for what vegetarians endure? That is disappointing. I shared that with an open heart, hoping that meat-eaters might at least attempt to see this from the point of view of the vegetarians, even if they don't agree or completely understand.

But I know that I cannot have any expectations from other people, so I accept it.

From a perspective of understanding, of being different in a group or community of people, I already have compassion for that, I live that. I am different from those around me (not regarding this particular issue, but others), and I understand how a vegetarian would feel, being different from those around them. I understand that point of view.

But in this thread, no, at least the way that said viewpoint has been expressed, it has not engendered more compassion for vegetarians. That is because the energy of the thread, what comes across to me, reminds me of things that have happened in my life and prior interactions with others that I've had, and this familiar energy engenders feelings other than compassion in me.

When you shared how you felt in post #2310 (sorry, don't know how to link it), of course I feel compassion for you, how could I not. You were expressing your true feelings, feelings of pain.

Monica, I am sorry if my actions/nonaction provoked these feelings in you, but I am not responsible for your feelings.

It's great to see someone so passionate about what they believe in, and it seems that you have support with others, even in this thread, so maybe your feelings of being unsupported are worth exploring. ( you have written a couple of times about feeling unsupported)

Participating in this thread has been helpful to me, I've already said a few times, it's given me a better understanding of myself.

[Pablísimo]

Thanks for your response! Allow me to clarify:

I agree that these particular animals in these factory farms are suffering. When I have watched video footage of what goes on inside factory farms, is seems quite undeniable to me that the animals there are greatly suffering, and needlessly at that.

And thank YOU for your response as well! I also appreciate your clarification. I felt like you made a pretty darn good point, but I was struggling with the idea that factory farm animals might not be suffering just because I can't ask them.

I see now what you mean, and I wholeheartedly appreciate you making it clear that you see them suffering in those videos as well. This makes it easier for me to understand your wider point and not get sidetracked, so thanks!

What I am referring to is commentary about how "The Animals" as a group feel about this suffering. My position is agnostic on that. I don't know how "The Animals" feel about it, and I don't buy into the idea that anybody else knows either. There is all manner of suffering which goes on which is quite incomprehensible to me.

Well, I think this area is alot more ambiguous. I tend to agree with you here that, objectively at least, no'one really does know what "The Animals" as a collective feel about it, if indeed there even is such a thing as such a general collective of "The Animals" as a unit, and even then it's debatable what their opinion might be about the suffering. We can make educated guesses, and even extrapolate about how it might feel based on how we as a human collective might feel about those humans who suffer needlessly. We can use our discernment and empathy, but ultimately I don't think that we really can know, and I'm dubious about any claims that anyone really can with 100% certainty.

To me though, that question is more of a philosophical curiosity. I see a simple, immediate need for change that can be addressed without a definitive answer to the question of how the Animals, as a group, might feel about the suffering and cruelty in factory farms. I know how I feel about it, and this is enough for me to make choices about my dietary lifestyle that are congruent with my own distortions.

What I observe is that the vast majority of animals incarnated on this planet are not living in factory farms. Therefore, perhaps there is some higher purpose to this, or some reasoning that is incomprehensible to my 3D mind. I could conjecture several reasons why this might be, but I feel that would most likely not be of benefit at this point in the conversation.

Your observation is undeniably correct: The vast majority of animals incarnated on this planet are NOT living on factory farms. However, I would say that clear majorities of the animals that are used for meat on this planet DO spend their short lives on factory farms, thus I see the greatest need to speak out in this particular area. For me, there is the least ambiguity here. Given how many animals are raised and killed in appalling conditions for the sustenance of my own species, this problem is vast in scale.

I would also like to say that I agree with you, in principle, that there might be some reasoning or higher purpose to this situation that is incomprehensible to my 3D mind. That is why I try to have self-respect, but an underpinning of humility in all of my views. Behind the veil, we just don't have all the information, and it behooves us to cut eachother some slack and not judge other people for their perceptions and choices. I could be totally wrong...as could everyone else. Honestly, who knows for sure?

However, to me, I feel that even though there may be a higher purpose to it all -- and likely probably is -- that I have been presented with an ethical choice almost unique to 3D beings on this planet. I have a choice to be a predator or not. I have a choice to object to the mistreatment of other beings. I see a higher purpose to many forms of human suffering, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to work for a better world. So many are starving in Africa -- just like when Don asked the question, the appropriate response is to feed the body, even though that starvation is probably good for their soul evolution.

The second thing is that I don't quite grasp the link between observing the horrors of factory farming and the conclusion that any eating of animals, whatsoever, is "wrong". What about humanely-raised animals? What about insects? What about worms? What about shrimp?

I think there is a huge gap in logic there, and my experience is that whenever this gap is pointed out, the response tends to be more emotional dramatism. I view this as a distraction technique.

Well, hopefully I won't add to that here, because I think it's a fair question.

For me, the logic is not the same. I find the most acute problem to currently be the vast numbers of suffering beings that are stuck in factory farms. I see the immense misery and suffering present in their lives, long before the moment of slaughter, as the most profound problem in this space.

That said, it's not the only concern for me. It is the PRIMARY concern, and one I'm pleased to see there is a lot of common ground with many meat eaters. This is something I think we can build upon because when discussed rationally, I think most people tend to disagree with factory farming practices, regardless of what they think about the general appropriateness of meat eating.

It's good to work from common ground, under something that is unifying rather than focus on the areas where we disagree, in my view.

But I have to be honest with you. Though the suffering in factory farms is my biggest concern, a secondary issue, for me, is that of the life force itself. I feel like when we kill another being, even if we did not torture it in life, that we are still acting as predators and preying upon an essentially innocent other-self. We are stealing that life force in what is a very STS manner, in my totally biased and subjective view. Sure, we could debate and discuss plants again, but animals and even insects can communicate to me that they don't want to be eaten very easily. I find it a violation of their right to exist and develop were I to kill them when I have a choice. Unlike an animal that is hardwired for one particular diet, human beings can subsist quite healthily on vegetables or meat. I am given the choice if I want to kill other animals for my food or not, that's all.

Here though, I feel it is important to mention context. There is always a context, and Ra mentioned to us of the inherent problems with the "codification of response" that does not recognize the "uniqueness of each and every moment." My options are not the same as everyone else's. Meat eating or not is a complex decision involving practical, economic, and spiritual considerations, among others. In my situation, when I DO have plentiful vegetarian food available, I have no reason to kill other beings intentionally for my sustenance. In another point in time, in another place, and under different circumstances I may not feel the same way. And even now, I feel qualified only to make that decision for myself, and not judge others who perceive reality differently than me and make different choices.

In my experience, I find that many vegans insist on making the discussion about eating "The Animals", when in actuality it really isn't about "The Animals" but only about certain animals, raised in certain conditions, and the ones that appear most closely related to humans at that. I find this to be disingenuous.

Well that's a reasonable distinction for you to make. It's not true that ALL animals are living in hell on earth by any means. Some suffer worse than others. All I can say is that, for me, I don't have any reason to eat any animals, even insects. What options make sense for others, is up to them, but for me I find no compelling reason whatsoever to kill animals or insects for my food, not that I judge those who do.

I'd like to mention, though, that this discussion of basically general concepts has been taken very personally at times. I took the point being made that "It's About the Animals!" to have been brought up in CONTRAST to it being about "A particular person's dietary choice". IE, it's not about how we feel about YOU, or anyone else, so much as how we feel about dietary choice in a spiritual context, in general. There is a very important distinction... I think we cross a line when we critique someone else personally instead of comment on general views.

I don't want to speak for anyone else or put words in their mouth, but I honestly took the "It's about the animals" comment in this context rather than viewed it as a hypocritical statement about some vs all animals.

Yes, I think it is reasonable to conclude that an animal is suffering based on what we can observe. I don't think it is reasonable to make generalizations to all animals based on the observations of a few. If I stick my finger into a termite nest, and eat the termites, I don't think those termites have suffered all that much. And as far as I am aware, not a single vegan has risen up in defense of the termites, or any other insect used as food.

Here again, I find myself agreeing with you. I don't think it's reasonable either to make generalizations to all animals based on the observations of a few. Termites in that situation are clearly not suffering to the same degree as a factory-farmed cow.

To me, though, it makes sense to put some emphasis on where the majority of the suffering is occurring -- which is the factory farms all over this earth. Sure, I think other animals, including insects, should be left to live their lives whenever possible, but I don't see the termite treatment problem to be on the same scale, that's all.

I'm curious to know... is anybody here genuinely offended and/or horrified by the animal killing/eating in this video clip?

I found it slightly painful to watch, but nowhere near to the same degree as a slaughterhouse video. In the context of a kid making a Youtube video who has no reason at present to eat a bunch of termites for sustenance, it seems to me to be a needless violation of their sovereignty and incarnations. I found it distasteful and inconsiderate that he just devoured them when there was no real need, though it was so quick I doubt they suffered much. And that relative lack of suffering does count for something, in my book.

However, if this kid was in the wilderness and couldn't find any available vegetarian food, how could I blame him for doing what he has to do to survive? I think the context is the key, for me at least. When there is an available choice that avoids killing and respects life as much as possible, that's the one I'm going to take every time. The trouble with 3D is, that choice is not always available in all circumstances. So, we do the best we can.

I don't dispute your basic premise. I am disputing the generalizations that are made from this basic premise.

Thus... "Eating factory-farmed animals who have needlessly suffered is wrong." is a statement I can live with, and even agree with.

Thank you for this clarification, Tenet. Honestly, I find these kinds of statements from someone who eats meat to be very encouraging. It sounds like you can at least SEE what we see, even if your interpretations of what to do about it, if anything, are different.

"Eating animals is wrong." is a statement I heartily disagree with.

Well, for what it's worth I'm not sure I agree with that statement either. There are circumstances, such as, well, the past for one, Tibetans, Eskimos, Native Americans, etc, where it wouldn't be fair to say "Eating animals is wrong." I personally try to avoid blanket statements that don't take into account context and the uniqueness of each person and moment.

There is alot more room for debate here when we shift away from factory farming and into other areas such as hunting, fishing, and insects. It's perfectly fine to explore them, too, of course, but they are different.

I personally feel the killing of any animals for food is wrong for me, right now, in the modern era, with my unique circumstances and choices. I find it incongruent with my dedication to the STO path, and I'm grateful to the universe for blessing me with an incarnation where I can eat the way that I do.

I respect that not everyone has the same circumstances as me and I'm just not interested in judging them for doing the best they can in this insane and confusing 3D world. I am making the best decisions I can with the available info I have behind the veil. If I'm wrong, then so be it, but I'm doing the best I can. My strong conviction that everyone else is doing the best they can, too, is a major part of why I do not judge others for their decisions.

For me, I choose not to eat any animals. Not even termites. But if we can come together and agree that something should be done about the factory farming situation, then I consider that an important area of collaboration and common ground.

Instead of arguing the more ambiguous points, I'd rather work together for things we all agree on.

Love to all

[Tenet Nosce]

I see now what you mean, and I wholeheartedly appreciate you making it clear that you see them suffering in those videos as well. This makes it easier for me to understand your wider point and not get sidetracked, so thanks!

You're most welcome. Not that I would expect you to go back and read all of my posts in this thread, but suffice it to say that my view has been quite consistent throughout.

I see a simple, immediate need for change that can be addressed without a definitive answer to the question of how the Animals, as a group, might feel about the suffering and cruelty in factory farms.

In this we also agree.

I would also like to say that I agree with you, in principle, that there might be some reasoning or higher purpose to this situation that is incomprehensible to my 3D mind. That is why I try to have self-respect, but an underpinning of humility in all of my views. Behind the veil, we just don't have all the information, and it behooves us to cut eachother some slack and not judge other people for their perceptions and choices. I could be totally wrong...as could everyone else. Honestly, who knows for sure?

Exactly.

This is something I think we can build upon because when discussed rationally, I think most people tend to disagree with factory farming practices, regardless of what they think about the general appropriateness of meat eating.

I think you are quite right about that.

It's good to work from common ground, under something that is unifying rather than focus on the areas where we disagree, in my view.

I not only agree, but would go so far as to suggest this is the only way things actually get accomplished.

Meat eating or not is a complex decision involving practical, economic, and spiritual considerations, among others.

Exactly.

In my situation, when I DO have plentiful vegetarian food available, I have no reason to kill other beings intentionally for my sustenance. In another point in time, in another place, and under different circumstances I may not feel the same way.

Perhaps this is a bit overly philosophical point, but your other-selves are right here/now choosing to kill other beings and eat them.

And even now, I feel qualified only to make that decision for myself, and not judge others who perceive reality differently than me and make different choices.

This is probably why your posts have not attracted any sort of negative attention or criticism from others who may disagree with your personal view.

Here again, I find myself agreeing with you.

Are you surprised by all this agreement? Did you have a different perception of my view before this post? If so, why do you suppose that is?

To me, though, it makes sense to put some emphasis on where the majority of the suffering is occurring -- which is the factory farms all over this earth.

Agreed.

Sure, I think other animals, including insects, should be left to live their lives whenever possible, but I don't see the termite treatment problem to be on the same scale, that's all.

So then, when there are outbreaks of massive hordes of insects destroying crops intended for human consumption- would you support a non-interventionist stance? How do you feel about the use of pesticides, including natural pesticides?

When there is an available choice that avoids killing and respects life as much as possible, that's the one I'm going to take every time.

Your body's immune system kills microbes and cancer cells all the time. How do you feel about this?

Thank you for this clarification, Tenet. Honestly, I find these kinds of statements from someone who eats meat to be very encouraging. It sounds like you can at least SEE what we see, even if your interpretations of what to do about it, if anything, are different.

You're welcome!

But if we can come together and agree that something should be done about the factory farming situation, then I consider that an important area of collaboration and common ground.

Instead of arguing the more ambiguous points, I'd rather work together for things we all agree on.

I agree.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

[Ankh]

Monica, thank you for your reply. There were many questions in your post. I will not answer all of them, as it would make a very long post I am afraid, and perhaps lead this discussion in many side discussions. However, if you feel an urgency to get any specific question answered, please, re-ask.

Then how can you be so sure that you have detected disrespect in someone tone? since you have only their written words... Is it possible you were simply wrong in your perception of their tone?

Oh, I am sure that I have been wrong many times! My perception is fallible, and I am not even speaking of 3D and the veil in place.

However, I regard this thread to be probably one of the most disharmonious in this forum, and there has been disrespectful tone displayed here, many times. BOTH from one the so called side, and another one the so called side. This is what happens when there exists separation, in my understanding.

How, then, do we honor our own convictions, while still honoring the free will of our 3D other-selves, who, in our view, are violating the will of our 2D other-selves?

This is a question that you need to find out for yourself. I can not speak what the right way is of conveying your conviction for you personally.

When I am standing in front of a challenge, I am *trying* to see how I can serve the one I am communicating with, but I sure fail many times indeed.

Then you have perceived incorrectly, for it wasn't my intention to 'attack' you in any way!! It was simply an honest question.

It was my subjective experience. It can never be incorrect.

I am a big girl though, and take responsibility for my own catalysts.

Would you prefer that the vegetarians give up our convictions, in order to have peace and harmony?

I would never ask anyone such thing.

Would you prefer that we censor ourselves, like we do at the grocery store and at Christmas dinner?

Monica, I am sorry if I provide unsatisfying answers to you, but the only thing that I can say here is that I can't tell you what to do. How you choose to express yourself is for your own discernment and intelligence to find out. It is impossible to point out such things to any other self.

Are we asking too much, to ask that we be accepted for who we are, including our convictions?

I personally have no problems with whomever they may be, as long as there is respect for each other.

Are we expecting too much, to hope that we might be able to speak openly and honestly, in a discussion about this topic, in a forum dedicated to the tenets of the Law of One, including Acceptance of other-selves? Are we wrong to hope that we might be accepted without censoring our deepest convictions?

Not wrong. And I am speaking in philosophical and spiritual terms now, and that is: when you expect someone to accept you, you will be disappointed from time to time. This is not this kind of density. This is the density of where we learn to give and love and accept and serve each other, without expectations. So in a way, since this is the Law of One forum, where we learn more consciously perhaps, such things, yeah - it's surprising to me too. In another way, this is perhaps a lesson to all of us.

Are peace and harmony more important than honoring our own personal convictions?

It is an interesting question. I would rather say that serving another self is more important that my own personal convictions, IF this service is aligned with my chosen path. With that said, if there are any personal convictions I am glad to examine them, and has also done so in this forum. This place has been acting as an *invaluable* source for me to do this work, as people here are very intelligent and awesome.

But there has been many frictions here. We are human after all, and are prone to do mistakes.

If that is the only way the meat-eaters will accept us - if we surrender our convictions and keep our mouths shut - then would you prefer that we do that?

I never asked that from any individual, vegetarian, meat-eater, black, white, human or non-human.

I expressed my *opinion* though, which withstands - to show respect for each other, and try to serve each other here.

Can you consider, Ankh, that the meat-eaters won't accept the vegetarians no matter how nice and respectful they are, as long as they continue to express their convictions?

Can you consider, Ankh, that it is the meat-eaters' lack of acceptance of the vegetarians' convictions, that is causing the discord?

Sure! But in my fallible opinion, this is a group energy. If I to consider in these lines, I would consider that both "sides" are doing it to "each other"; each intelligence contributing with its non-acceptance and disrespect. And as much as each individual is responsible for its own contribution, it is also a creation of the whole group. We are not separate from each other, even though it seems so.

And you chose to completely ignore all the important points I made, in favor of being offended by the honest question I asked of you.

It was never my intent to ignore any of important to you questions.

My subjective experience is honored and respected by me though. But I take care of this as my own responsibility.

What was your important question?

One example: some days ago, a member asked about something in this thread, and you, among others, gave advices to this member. So I thought - why not? And I made a post, *quoting* this member. But instantly, there was reply by you, diminishing what I had to say. I wish that we all would be able to play along here, nicely, while respecting each other.

So your example is that I posted my opinion?

???

Since when is posting an opinion somehow wrong? Is it because you didn't like my opinion?

Never wrong. I am trying to appreciate all facets of the Creator, but it's not always easy.

It was, again, my subjective experience.

I am sorry for singling out this example. I shouldn't have done that, and will never do so again. Therefore, your other questions about showing examples of disrespect etc, are left unaswered.

How could one person's opinion 'diminish' another person's opinion?

Oh, that happens every day in third density! No worries in this case though.

I cannot be accused of violating this guideline. I have bent over backwards to consistently insist that no one analyze anyone personally on this thread, despite the countless times others have tried to make it personal.

Ehum... I never accused you for violating any guidelines.

In the area of animal cruelty, however, I happen to have more knowledge about the topic than many of the meat-eaters here. I will not censor myself or pretend to know less than I do. I won't "dumb myself down" just to be accepted.

If you are unable or unwilling to accept that I happen to have some knowledge about the topic, then just who is it that is refusing to learn from others?

I am happy to learn from you and from anyone else, Ankh, about a lot of things. But I'm not likely to learn much about how to help save the animals, from those who eat animals.

I am sure that you know tons more than me and most of us participating in this thread about this topic. I am not talking about the knowledge itself though.

I believe that the relationship between a teacher and a student in the positive polarity is that of great love and respect for each other. I believe that there exists a desire from especially the teacher to learn from the student, i.e. an open mind. If the teacher is closed, I don't regard it as teaching anymore, but preaching. I am not saying that this is what you do, Monica, I just share my understanding. I also believe that if we would apply that more, we would learn/teach and teach/learn far more quickly.

[AnthroHeart]

I swear that sometimes I think I punish myself by eating meat. Today at an oriental restaurant I was about to order Tofu. But they didn't make it crispy like I like it, so I went for the meat. Knowing full well how it would make me feel and that I was ingesting all those fear hormones. I sometimes don't understand my psychology. I wasn't even craving it.

[3DMonkey]

I swear that sometimes I think I punish myself by eating meat. Today at an oriental restaurant I was about to order Tofu. But they didn't make it crispy like I like it, so I went for the meat. Knowing full well how it would make me feel and that I was ingesting all those fear hormones. I sometimes don't understand my psychology. I wasn't even craving it.

Okay, Mister , what in the world are fear hormones?

I think that is definitely in the head.

[godwide_void]

What does one's food choice have to do with divine evolution or viewing others through a lens of unity and acceptance?

Key word, ACCEPTANCE.

[AnthroHeart]

Good point monkey and GV. Fear hormones were something I read about earlier in this thread. I took it literally.

I think I try too hard sometimes to do the "right" thing, whatever that is.