In regards to eating meat

[Patrick]

I am not saying that judging is wrong, because I believe that nothing is wrong.

In 6D, yes. But we are in 3D.

This was discussed on the radio show a couple of weeks ago, by the way. You might wish to check it out.

I already did, I co-submitted this question with you.

I would agree with you that successfully living by 6d values in 3d is not realist. But I see no problem in trying.

But imposing your judgment on him does result in negativity to you AND does not change anything regarding his act. It's not helping one bit.

You're saying that I'm saying "judge him" which would have "no effect on his action" but that is opposite of what I'm saying, which is "don't judge him, but DO stop him from harming another, if the other person is calling for help and it's within your power to answer the call."

Our responsibility is to answer the call, not support the person involved in an STS action. That's not judging him; it's simply declining his STS act of service. This is acceptable. Even Ra did this.

I understand the call you perceive and are answering.

I already said that I believe animals (and plants for that matter) should be treated with compassion, just like humans.

But I also believe this to be a different debate than eating meat per se.

The person in need of help would get my help. And in so doing, I would indeed try to stop the would-be murderer/rapist.

??? well that is EXACTLY what we're trying to do!!

The animals are calling for help. We are trying to help them. And in so doing, we are trying to stop the oppressors (whether consciously contributing to the oppression or unconsciously contributing).

It is exactly the same scenario! The only difference is that the attacker might actually be STS motivated, whereas most people who eat meat aren't doing it out of any STS motivation. So the intention is different. But that's all the MORE reason to answer the call for help!

I understand this. It's simply that I sincerely do not believe that eating meat is the issue here.

I am not nearly balanced enough to simply watch this while only feeling compassion for both.

If you're saying a totally balanced person would do nothing, then we have very very very different paradigms. I think there is a gross misunderstanding of what 'balanced' is.

My understanding of this comes directly from the Ra material.

42.3 Questioner: I will attempt to make an analogy. If an animal, shall I say, a bull, in a pen attacks you because you have wandered into his pen, you get out of his way rapidly but you do not blame him. Or, you do not have much of an emotional response other than the fear response that he might damage you. However, if you encounter another self in his territory and he attacks you, your response may be more of an emotional nature creating physical bodily responses. Am I correct in assuming that when your response to the animal and to the other-self seeing both as the Creator and loving both and understanding their action in attacking you is the action of their free will then you have balanced yourself correctly in this area? Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is basically correct. However, the balanced entity will see in the seeming attack of an other-self the causes of this action which are, in most cases, of a more complex nature than the cause of the attack of the second-density bull as was your example. Thus this balanced entity would be open to many more opportunities for service to a third-density other-self.

42.4 Questioner: Would a perfectly balanced entity feel an emotional response when being attacked by the other-self?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. The response is love.

42.5 Questioner: In the illusion that we now experience it is difficult to maintain this response especially if the entity’s attack results in physical pain, but I assume that this response should be maintained even through physical loss of life or extreme pain. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and further is of a major or principle importance in understanding, shall we say, the principle of balance. Balance is not indifference but rather the observer not blinded by any feelings of separation but rather fully imbued with love.

[βαθμιαίος]

I agree about Ra's meaning. But that's precisely my point:

Contributing to planetary darkness by adding to the suffering of our younger other-selves is not doing nothing.

It's doing something.

So would you perhaps edit Ra's quote to say that wanderers will lighten the planetary vibration "unless they eat meat?"

[Patrick]

Would you accept it if I start pointing out logical fallacies in the arguments we make here ?

I've already been doing that, and got only resentment. And you and I don't even agree on logic, so I don't see how this would help. It'll still just end up being disagreement about what's logical. I attempted to use logic to apply concepts, and it backfired.

If everyone was equally educated in logic, it might work. But such is not the case.

Ok, that is why I asked before attempting it.

I will not do so then.

In this context, I will simply not reply to posts #2807 and #2808. I will instead drop the subject of money.

[Monica]

I don't know that much about chickens.

Here, for your education

Live Fast Die Young - the life of a meat chicken

Undercover Investigation at Hy-Line Hatchery

(These are not PETA videos! since I know 'some' people won't watch any videos from PETA.)

Please, watch it in its entirety.

And here, a courageous farmer speaks up:

Food Inc. Chicken Farm

Are you sure dairy cows are miserable?

Do these cows look happy? Would a human be happy if they can't even turn around and must spend their entire life in a tiny stall? Check out the pigs too.

What intensive farming means -- for the animals and for the environment. (BBC documentary about farming in the US)

Have you been to a dairy? I have, and the cows certainly didn't look miserable. Also, we have a milk cow, and I know from experience that she gives more milk and cream when she's happy and well-fed. I suspect that it would be the same for commercial animals.

Respectfully, I invite you to get educated!

But don't believe me. Here is a report from ABC News.

The Ugly Side of Milk: Animal Cruelty

[Diana]

My understanding of this comes directly from the Ra material.

42.3 Questioner: I will attempt to make an analogy. If an animal, shall I say, a bull, in a pen attacks you because you have wandered into his pen, you get out of his way rapidly but you do not blame him. Or, you do not have much of an emotional response other than the fear response that he might damage you. However, if you encounter another self in his territory and he attacks you, your response may be more of an emotional nature creating physical bodily responses. Am I correct in assuming that when your response to the animal and to the other-self seeing both as the Creator and loving both and understanding their action in attacking you is the action of their free will then you have balanced yourself correctly in this area? Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is basically correct. However, the balanced entity will see in the seeming attack of an other-self the causes of this action which are, in most cases, of a more complex nature than the cause of the attack of the second-density bull as was your example. Thus this balanced entity would be open to many more opportunities for service to a third-density other-self.

42.4 Questioner: Would a perfectly balanced entity feel an emotional response when being attacked by the other-self?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. The response is love.

42.5 Questioner: In the illusion that we now experience it is difficult to maintain this response especially if the entity’s attack results in physical pain, but I assume that this response should be maintained even through physical loss of life or extreme pain. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and further is of a major or principle importance in understanding, shall we say, the principle of balance. Balance is not indifference but rather the observer not blinded by any feelings of separation but rather fully imbued with love.

As I see it, what is missing in the above explanation is that Ra does not say to do nothing if attacked, in other words, not to defend one's self (or an other-self). Ra says that regardless of what happens, love would be the balanced emotional response.


[quote='Valtor' pid='83924' dateline='1335913551']Is that a yes ?

Sure, you are free to point out logical fallacies.

[3DMonkey]

"What would be the value in that, other than to indulge the perpetrator?"

The value is unconditional love and acceptance of that which is.

this is the place we find ourselves in the day after anyway. The point of Ra's compassion was to teach us how to achieve acceptance, IMO. I don't think their compassion was to push our thoughts toward the yellow ray concerns. "The harvest is now"

[Monica]

I'm not suggesting it's fabricated, and I'm not oblivious to it.

I'm asking if you personally have been to any farms, feedlots, or slaughterhouses; I'm suggesting that the PETA videos don't show enterprises that are respectful to animals, and I'm suggesting that there are many of those.

1. Why does it matter if I've ever been to one personally? Must I travel to Africa to know that there are starving children there? But in answer to your question, I've seen the cattle feedlots from the road. I couldn't stomach going inside.

2. Why are PETA videos disregarded? Why does it matter who filmed the video? the footage is REAL.

3. Of course not ALL farms are this bad. Yes, there are still some old-fashioned, small-time farmers, like the ones in your area. But please watch the BBC film. This is the wave of the future! This method of 'farming' [sic] is being touted as the only way to feed the world's population, and is being promoted to the British "here, learn how they do it in the US." But regardless, there fact is that these do exist, and they are becoming more and more widespread. To disregard the reality of these abominations, because some 'humane' farmers still exist, is to miss the point.

4. I just posted several NON-PETA videos. Even the BBC and ABC News has reported this. And I only spent about a minute searching. There are lots more.

---

So would you perhaps edit Ra's quote to say that wanderers will lighten the planetary vibration "unless they eat meat?"

As the other vegetarians and I have stated numerous times, our overall vibration is based on the sum total of all our choices, not any particular choice, so it's impossible to answer that. Eating meat is one of many choices that affects our overall vibration. But it's a biggie, in my opinion, precisely because of the magnitude of its impact. And because, in most cases, it's not necessary.

Ra didn't say "don't steal" did they? Yet most of us would agree that it's pretty obvious stealing isn't cool for an STO entity.

Ra didn't provide specific guidelines on what is appropriate for us. That would defeat the purpose of the veil. We're supposed to figure it out!

But Ra gave lots of clues. Choosing the words Service to Others as the name of the positive path is a clue.

Talk about Choice, and 'answering the call' ...those too are clues.

Choosing the term animal products instead of meat when asked a general question is a clue. Adding the phrase to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism is another clue.

[Patrick]

As I see it, what is missing in the above explanation is that Ra does not say to do nothing if attacked, in other words, not to defend one's self (or an other-self). Ra says that regardless of what happens, love would be the balanced emotional response.

Ra would certainly not tell us what to do.

Also, a perfectly balanced individual would not be able to retain this perfect balance while veiled in 3d. Plus, it is my understanding that there are no perfectly balanced individual to begin with.

[Diana]

As I see it, what is missing in the above explanation is that Ra does not say to do nothing if attacked, in other words, not to defend one's self (or an other-self). Ra says that regardless of what happens, love would be the balanced emotional response.

Ra would certainly not tell us what to do.

Right. But Ra didn't say that we are to just do nothing, and let someone attack us or our family. Responding with love is not the same as doing nothing and letting everything be. For one thing, there is the respect for the physical body which houses our consciousness, and which we are caretakers of.

With regard to eating meat and supporting the industry, to just let it be because one doesn't want to interfere with any human free will is to ignore it. Just as not doing anything about an attacker is ignoring the situation. One can still respond with love and defend oneself. The idea of responding with love is what is in your heart. You may hate the attacker and defend yourself. You may also love the attacker and defend yourself.

Again, with regard to the meat industry, the question has been asked by the creator of this thread, which opened the door to opinions and viewpoints. The door is open, and the question asked, so I feel I am causing no infringement upon any member's free will by expressing my thoughts. (And this goes for everyone here.)

[βαθμιαίος]

1. Why does it matter if I've ever been to one personally? Must I travel to Africa to know that there are starving children there? But in answer to your question, I've seen the cattle feedlots from the road. I couldn't stomach going inside.

2. Why are PETA videos disregarded? Why does it matter who filmed the video? the footage is REAL.

3. Of course not ALL farms are this bad. Yes, there are still some old-fashioned, small-time farmers, like the ones in your area. But please watch the BBC film. This is the wave of the future! This method of 'farming' [sic] is being touted as the only way to feed the world's population, and is being promoted to the British "here, learn how they do it in the US." But regardless, there fact is that these do exist, and they are becoming more and more widespread. To disregard the reality of these abominations, because some 'humane' farmers still exist, is to miss the point.

1. It's possible you might find the reality on the ground is not quite so dire as you believe.

2. I don't think PETA videos are disregarded.

3. The future is not set in stone. It seems to me that if animals activists worked with humane farmers we might be able to get some traction.

As the other vegetarians and I have stated numerous times, our overall vibration is based on the sum total of all our choices, not any particular choice, so it's impossible to answer that. Eating meat is one of many choices that affects our overall vibration. But it's a biggie, in my opinion, precisely because of the magnitude of its impact. And because, in most cases, it's not necessary.

I believe it's possible to be a compassionate omnivore and also that, as Edgar Cayce quoted Jesus, what comes out of our mouths is more important (and relevant to our vibration) than what goes in.

[Monica]

The point of Ra's compassion was to teach us how to achieve acceptance, IMO.

My understanding is that the reason acceptance is a core tenet of the Law of One is not to replace compassion, but to facilitate compassion.

Acceptance is a core tenet, yes. But compassion is the criteria for graduation to 4D positive.

To focus on acceptance, at the exclusion of compassion, is to miss the point of acceptance, and miss the ultimate goal.

I don't think their compassion was to push our thoughts toward the yellow ray concerns.

Trying to change society is yellow ray. Having compassion for animals, and answering their call, is green ray.

[βαθμιαίος]

Right. But Ra didn't say that we are to just do nothing, and let someone attack us or our family. Responding with love is not the same as doing nothing and letting everything be. For one thing, there is the respect for the physical body which houses our consciousness, and which we are caretakers of.

Actually, they did imply that in higher densities that's exactly what we'd do.

33.11 Questioner: This motion picture brought out this point of which we have been talking. And the entity, the Colonel, had to make a decision at that point. I was just wondering, with respect to polarity, his polarization. He could have either knuckled under, you might say, to the negative forces, but he chose to defend his friend instead. Is it possible for you to estimate which is more positively polarizing: to defend the positively oriented entity, or to allow the suppression by the negatively oriented entities? Can you answer this even?

Ra: I am Ra. This question takes in the scope of fourth density as well as your own and its answer may best be seen by the action of the entity called Jehoshuah, which you call Jesus. This entity was to be defended by its friends. The entity reminded its friends to put away the sword. This entity then delivered itself to be put to the physical death. The impulse to protect the loved other-self is one which persists through the fourth density, a density abounding in compassion. More than this we cannot and need not say.

---

Trying to change society is yellow ray. Having compassion for animals, and answering their call, is green ray.

Trying to change society in order that animals be better treated is yellow ray, but there's nothing wrong with that.

[Monica]

1. It's possible you might find the reality on the ground is not quite so dire as you believe.

No, not possible, for the simple reason that those videos are real. It's impossible to say "that's not really happening."

The most one could do is say that it's not as widespread as they say.

On the other hand, it's possible, and I'd say quite probable, that it's far more widespread than they say. Certainly much more widespread than you seem to think.

Why do you seem to be downplaying these atrocities?

2. I don't think PETA videos are disregarded.

A few posts ago, you said:

I'm suggesting that the PETA videos don't show enterprises that are respectful to animals, and I'm suggesting that there are many of those.

What difference does it make who did the filming? The film is real; that's all that matters. Of course PETA doesn't film cute cozy farms, the same as charities don't report on happy, well-fed children. What would be the point of that?

PETA is very unpopular, and many people refuse to watch the videos just because they're from PETA.

That's why I was careful to choose videos from other organizations and even mainstream news, for better credibility.

3. The future is not set in stone. It seems to me that if animals activists worked with humane farmers we might be able to get some traction.

They're already doing that. But even 'spiritually oriented' Law of One students can't even agree that animals even deserve any compassion, so I don't have much hope for the general population.

I believe it's possible to be a compassionate omnivore and also that, as Edgar Cayce quoted Jesus, what comes out of our mouths is more important (and relevant to our vibration) than what goes in.

It's not about what goes into the mouth.

It's about compassion.

---

Right. But Ra didn't say that we are to just do nothing, and let someone attack us or our family.

Actually, they did imply that in higher densities that's exactly what we'd do.

I disagree. They said they declined the service of the STS entities. They also gave instructions for how the LL team could decline the service. They, Ra, declined the service also.

Ra: I am Ra. ...The impulse to protect the loved other-self is one which persists through the fourth density, a density abounding in compassion. More than this we cannot and need not say.

This is only part of the picture. The rest of the picture is that Jesus had a particular mission, and he lacked wisdom, which was fine in order to complete his mission. Another piece of the puzzle is declining the offer of STS service.

Trying to change society is yellow ray. Having compassion for animals, and answering their call, is green ray.

Trying to change society in order that animals be better treated is yellow ray, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Right, there's nothing wrong with that. But, why is the green ray part always left out? Many times in this discussion, the vegetarians have been accused of "acting in yellow ray" while totaling ignoring the many times we've explained that yellow ray action is secondary; what drives us, what motivates us, is green ray. Compassion is green ray, but compassion seems to almost always get left out of the discussion.

[Patrick]

Ra would certainly not tell us what to do.

Right. But Ra didn't say that we are to just do nothing, and let someone attack us or our family. Responding with love is not the same as doing nothing and letting everything be. For one thing, there is the respect for the physical body which houses our consciousness, and which we are caretakers of.

With regard to eating meat and supporting the industry, to just let it be because one doesn't want to interfere with any human free will is to ignore it. Just as not doing anything about an attacker is ignoring the situation. One can still respond with love and defend oneself. The idea of responding with love is what is in your heart. You may hate the attacker and defend yourself. You may also love the attacker and defend yourself.

Again, with regard to the meat industry, the question has been asked by the creator of this thread, which opened the door to opinions and viewpoints. The door is open, and the question asked, so I feel I am causing no infringement upon any member's free will by expressing my thoughts. (And this goes for everyone here.)

IMHO you do not have to worry about infringing on free will, I would go as far as to say that anyone currently veiled in 3d cannot infringe upon free will the way Ra could. We paid the price to be in the game.

You are implying that eating meat signifies our intent to support the industry and I'm saying that it's more complex than that.

Lets assume for an instant that eating meat is an act that polarizes somewhat in the negative. Have you ever considered that all these animals are evolving much faster toward 3d because of what they go through in their short lives?

Kind of like us under the influence of the Elites, where we live about 90 years and our normal lifespan should be 900 years. We are evolving much faster because of this negativity.

Actually I'm at a point where I not only forgave the Elites, but I can even feel thankful for the service they provided.

You're probably thinking: "That's insane!". Right?

[βαθμιαίος]

No, not possible, for the simple reason that those videos are real. It's impossible to say "that's not really happening."

The most one could do is say that it's not as widespread as they say.

On the other hand, it's possible, and I'd say quite probable, that it's far more widespread than they say. Certainly much more widespread than you seem to think.

Why do you seem to be downplaying these atrocities?

I'm not downplaying them, but yes, I'm suggesting that things are not monolithically bad.

What difference does it make who did the filming? The film is real; that's all that matters. Of course PETA doesn't film cute cozy farms, the same as charities don't report on happy, well-fed children. What would be the point of that?

I didn't say it mattered who did the filming, just that the reality may be less homogenous than the films portray.

They're already doing that. But even 'spiritually oriented' Law of One students can't even agree that animals even deserve any compassion, so I don't have much hope for the general population.

I think we're all in favor of compassion for animals.

---

I disagree. They said they declined the service of the STS entities. They also gave instructions for how the LL team could decline the service. They, Ra, declined the service also.

...

This is only part of the picture. The rest of the picture is that Jesus had a particular mission, and he lacked wisdom, which was fine in order to complete his mission. Another piece of the puzzle is declining the offer of STS service.

Good points, and I agree. They point to your using blue ray as well as green in your efforts.

[Patrick]

...But even 'spiritually oriented' Law of One students can't even agree that animals even deserve any compassion, so I don't have much hope for the general population...

I did not read the whole thread, but I do not remember even one poster who did not agree that animals deserve compassion.

[Monica]

I'm not downplaying them, but yes, I'm suggesting that things are not monolithically bad.

In the same way starvation isn't "monolithically bad"? If I am showing a video about the starvation problem in Africa, must I put in a disclaimer that children in the US are well-fed? Sorry, but I just don't understand the point of that.

from the Humane Society:
http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdfs...siness.pdf

Across the United States, nearly 10 billion land animals are raised and killed each year for meat, eggs, and milk.3,4
More than half of all confined farm animals by weight—54%—are concentrated in just 5% of the country‟s industrial animal production farms.5
The realities of today‟s animal agribusiness practices are a far cry from the ones embraced by the small, family farms that once supplied the marketplace. Industrialization and raising unprecedented numbers of farm animals have resulted in the intensive confinement of these chickens, pigs, turkeys, cattle, and other animals—and the intensive problems faced by those who must contend with the impacts of factory farming.
Replacing Family Farms
Factory farms have made it increasingly difficult, if not impossible, for independent family farmers to survive as they are unable to compete against these massive corporate operations. Many once-independent farmers are resorting to contractual arrangements with large agribusiness corporations, 6raising the companies‟ animals until
slaughter. “Contract growing” now makes up much of the factory farming industry, particularly in the pig and poultry sectors. 6By 1999, contract production accounted for more than 60% of U.S. pig production and 35% of cattle production.7 Today, poultry production is now almost entirely contract-based.

Although the terms “factory farm,” “concentrated animal feeding operation (CAFO),” and “animal feeding operation (AFO)” are often used interchangeably, “factory farm” is a general term that refers to industrial animal production facilities, while “AFO” and “CAFO” have precise legal
definitions. An AFO is a facility in which crops and vegetation are not sustained during the normal growing season, and land animals are confined for 45 days or more within a 12-month period.28,29
As described by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), “AFOs congregate animals, feed, manure and urine, dead animals, and production operations on a small land area.”30
The EPA estimates that there are approximately 450,000 AFOs in the United States.31

I didn't say it mattered who did the filming, just that the reality may be less homogenous than the films portray.

I did a little research, to see if maybe you were right - maybe factory farming wasn't as widespread as I thought.

I discovered the opposite - it's much worse than I thought!

from http://www.farmforward.com/farming-forwa...ry-farming

Factory farms, also known as CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations) or IFAP (Industrial Farm Animal Production) facilities,1 can house more than 125,000 animals2 under one roof and are designed to produce the highest possible output at the lowest possible cost to the operator. These farms and their associated industrial slaughterhouses produce “cheap” meat, eggs, and dairy by externalizing their costs. The costs to the public from the ecological damage and health problems created by factory farms are not considered any more than the law requires, and companies have often found it less expensive to pay fines than to alter their methods. For this reason, the true cost of meat is never reflected in the price consumers pay. Animal suffering is given no meaningful consideration except in a few idiosyncratic cases.

Factory farming now accounts for more than 99 percent of all farmed animals raised and slaughtered in the United States.3 (Virtually all seafood comes to us by way of industrial fishing or factory fish farms.)

Farmed animals are remarkable creatures who experience pleasure (pasture-raised pigs, for instance, are known to jump for joy)4 and have complex social structures (cows develop friendships over time and will sometimes hold grudges against other animals who treat them badly).5 The cheap animal products churned out by factory farms come at a high cost to the animals themselves (many are confined so intensively that they cannot turn around or stretch a wing).6 The structure of factory farming ensures that even the animals’ most fundamental needs—clean air, sunshine, freedom from chronic pain and illness—are denied them.

I think we're all in favor of compassion for animals.

I don't get that at all from this thread.

[BrownEye]

You're probably thinking: "That's insane!". Right?

That was a very understanding post. I have brought up this very same point.

But, at the same time, what we are doing now, is creating our next game.

[Monica]

I did not read the whole thread, but I do not remember even one poster who did not agree that animals deserve compassion.

They might not have explicitly said that, but the sentiment seems to be the same. That is the overall impression I have gotten throughout this entire thread.

[Patrick]

Incidentally, has any activism ever been shown to actually help promote their cause in the collective? By this I mean getting actual results in what the cause is about.

EDIT:
I guess this answers my question.

http://www.bmartin.cc/pubs/07Anderson.html

Activism has played a major role in ending slavery, challenging dictatorships, protecting workers from exploitation, protecting the environment, promoting equality for women, opposing racism, and many other important issues. Activism can also be used for aims such as attacking minorities or promoting war.

[Monica]

Incidentally, has any activism ever been shown to actually help promote their cause in the collective? By this I mean getting actual results in what the cause is about.

Absolutely!! Civil rights, women's rights, end to slavery...gosh most of the advances in human society were birthed in activism.

[βαθμιαίος]

I disagree. They said they declined the service of the STS entities. They also gave instructions for how the LL team could decline the service. They, Ra, declined the service also.

I was thinking about this some more. They said the instinct to protect continues through fourth density. If you think about it, they didn't protect L/L. They advised them, true, but they didn't shield them.

Across the United States, nearly 10 billion land animals are raised and killed each year for meat, eggs, and milk.3,4
More than half of all confined farm animals by weight—54%—are concentrated in just 5% of the country‟s industrial animal production farms.5

So 46% of confined farm animals are produced by the other 95%. In other words, it's not monolithic. Also, they are apparently not counting the non-confined animals.

I don't get that at all from this thread.

It's there, I think. Maybe compassion takes different forms than you expect?

[Monica]

I already did, I co-submitted this question with you.

Oh! I knew you had submitted the question, but I forgot which question.

I would agree with you that successfully living by 6d values in 3d is not realist. But I see no problem in trying.

I would agree if we were talking about 4D love, or even 5D wisdom. But 6D unity - the merging of the polarities so there is no longer any right and wrong - would seem to negate the purpose of 3D, which is Choice.

We're supposed to choose when in 3D.

I already said that I believe animals (and plants for that matter) should be treated with compassion, just like humans.

But I also believe this to be a different debate than eating meat per se.

Then the crux of the matter is:

Is it possible to have compassion for animals and still kill and eat them?

or

Is it compassionate to animals to let someone else kill them, and maybe even torture them, so that we can eat them?

Killing and eating cannot be separated, for the simple reason that the animal must be killed in order to eat it. Thus, if we are eating it, then we are at least partially responsible for its death.

And, the animal didn't want to die - that much is clear. So if we are responsible for its death, then what that means is that we overrode its free will to live, and stole its life.

I understand this. It's simply that I sincerely do not believe that eating meat is the issue here.

What is the issue then?

---

Lets assume for an instant that eating meat is an act that polarizes somewhat in the negative. Have you ever considered that all these animals are evolving much faster toward 3d because of what they go through in their short lives?

Sure.

But what sort of 3D?

I shudder to think of the violent world those creatures will inhabit when they become human...It may make this planet look like a paradise by comparison.

shudder

Kind of like us under the influence of the Elites, where we live about 90 years and our normal lifespan should be 900 years. We are evolving much faster because of this negativity.

You are forgetting one thing though: It is the task of the STS entities to provide the negative catalyst.

It's not our task to do that. Our task is to respond to catalyst in a positive way, not reinforce it.

[BrownEye]

I shudder to think of the violent world those creatures will inhabit when they become human...It may make this planet look like a paradise by comparison.

Places like Africa actually.

[Monica]

I was thinking about this some more. They said the instinct to protect continues through fourth density. If you think about it, they didn't protect L/L. They advised them, true, but they didn't shield them.

If you are attempting to extrapolate from that, that we shouldn't try to shield animals, then I disagree. The objectives are different in each density. It would have been contrary to the purpose of the veil, and contrary to the purpose of 3D experience, to deny LL the opportunity to learn for themselves, how to respond to negative greeting.

We are in a totally different situation, so we must discern for ourselves what is appropriate. That is the whole point; we are in the density of Choice. We can't just say "well Ra didn't shield LL so we shouldn't shield the animals" because what Ra did in that case might not apply in this case. That's where choice comes in, and discernment.

Across the United States, nearly 10 billion land animals are raised and killed each year for meat, eggs, and milk.3,4
More than half of all confined farm animals by weight—54%—are concentrated in just 5% of the country‟s industrial animal production farms.5

So 46% of confined farm animals are produced by the other 95%.

I think you misread that. What it's saying is that 5% of the farms house 54% of the animals.

The factory farms have a disproportionately high percentage of the total animals.

In other words, 5% of the farms should house 5% of the animals, roughly. But they house 54%. This means that those 5% of the farms have abnormally high populations, and atrocious conditions for the animals.

The small % of farms - 5% - is irrelevant. What is relevant is the majority of animals - 54% - are being raised in these abominable conditions!

In other words, it's not monolithic.

It wouldn't be monolithic unless 100% of farms were factory farms, which we know isn't the case, so I don't see the relevance of the term monolithic.

What is relevant is that it's a majority of the farm animals - 54%, raised in these conditions. That's deplorable. Evil.

Also, they are apparently not counting the non-confined animals.

Aren't all farm animals confined in some way? They're all confined to a farm of some sort. I don't think they meant 'free range' because that is already covered by the 46%.

It's there, I think. Maybe compassion takes different forms than you expect?

I don't 'expect' anything but when I hear extensive arguments about how the treatment of animals doesn't matter, and how it's 'ok' to support the torture of them, that doesn't come across as very compassionate to me.

On 2nd thought, I guess I did expect something when I first started participating in this thread. I expected that most of the meat-eaters who are spiritually oriented just weren't aware of the atrocious conditions farm animals are subjected to, and I expected that once their eyes were opened, we'd be spending the rest of this discussion brainstorming ways to all work together to decrease animal suffering. I expected that they'd all shows concern and compassion, rather than arguing why they should still have the 'right' to continue supporting the cruelty.

Yeah, that's what I expected.

Boy was I wrong! That's what I get for having expectations!

[Monica]

just want to 2nd what diana said. its all about disconnect. lets make it all sanitary and pretty , nothing to see here, no suffering , animals are not people they are animals. yet many animals display a far greater loyalty than human beings do to one another. and they are so so trusting in many cases. they look to us with eyes of pure love. i say if any of us had to work a full day in a slaughterhouse we wouldnt eat meat again for a long long time. and its the same thing with war, pretty cool bombs dropped so accurately designed to minimize civilian casualties.

Well said, norral!

---

Monica, are you familiar with Law of Attraction?

Oh yes. And it's displayed ever so clearly in the statistics showing increased disease rates directly corresponding to meat consumption.

Eating death attracts death.

[BrownEye]

The person in need of help would get my help. And in so doing, I would indeed try to stop the would-be murderer/rapist.

I am not nearly balanced enough to simply watch this while only feeling compassion for both.

I see this as a misconception by a few here..........

42.7 Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for third-density of this concept. Many entities here feel great compassion for relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, with food if there is hunger as there is now in the African nations, by bringing them medicine if they feel that there is a need to minister to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.

This is creating a vibration that is in harmony with green-ray or fourth-density but it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth-density that these entities are experiencing catalysts and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth-density than it would be to minister to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.

On the other hand, however, you are correct in your assumption that the green ray response is not as refined as that which has been imbued with wisdom. This wisdom enables the entity to appreciate its contributions to the planetary consciousness by the quality of its being without regard to activity or behavior which expects results upon visible planes.


You know that those unseen that bring the reality to us that we demand are always wishing that we would make the right choices. A choice is an action. There is no balance in indifference. There can be decisions made on a balanced perception. Perceiving all of the background construction that went into the action in the moment. What it boils down to is the description of an informed choice.

While writing this insight was just given to me about green ray activation. Polarization is even easier than I thought.

Incidentally, has any activism ever been shown to actually help promote their cause in the collective? By this I mean getting actual results in what the cause is about.

EDIT:
I guess this answers my question.

http://www.bmartin.cc/pubs/07Anderson.html

Activism has played a major role in ending slavery, challenging dictatorships, protecting workers from exploitation, protecting the environment, promoting equality for women, opposing racism, and many other important issues. Activism can also be used for aims such as attacking minorities or promoting war.

This made me laugh pretty hard when I got home and read it.

Do you believe you are contributing to slavery by using money? Probably not, because that is probably not your intent. In the same way you can eat meat without the intent to contribute to animal abuse.

I am definitely contributing to slavery. I am also trying to change my ways, knowing that I cannot change the collective in this instance. One benefit is that there are many others that are coming to the same understanding, and many are coming together. Possibly forming a new social complex. I find it beneficial to not accept the failing social complex of modern ways.

The money is inert, and does respond to intention in your life.

Get more into the "magic" and you will find that it is not "inert". It definitely has an effect just touching us. Just consider the recent rush to pull old money out of the system in order to replace it with new money. New graphics. There is a hidden connection just like there are hidden connections all around us, similar to TV and the web.

Retreating within and saying "it's OK" would seem to be included in that it would lighten the planetary consciousness.

If by "lighter" you mean less mass, then I would agree. Removing consciousness would be an analog for "lighten". Consciousness does not evolve by removing yourself, unless of course it is your self that is holding back evolution LMAO!

[Monica]

I see this as a misconception by a few here..........

42.7 Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for third-density of this concept. Many entities here feel great compassion for relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, with food if there is hunger as there is now in the African nations, by bringing them medicine if they feel that there is a need to minister to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.

This is creating a vibration that is in harmony with green-ray or fourth-density but it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth-density that these entities are experiencing catalysts and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth-density than it would be to minister to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.

Very good find, Pickle!

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More on factory farms. Coming soon to an area near you!

But a new interactive map points out that in many parts of the country, eggs, dairy, and meat products marketed as "local" could actually be coming from a factory farm in your county. Which means some of the local food sold in grocery stores could be from animals raised in inhumane conditions and in such high concentrations that they pollute your local water supply and air. Since many industrial farming operations are inconspicuous—they look like warehouses, with no animals to be seen—many people have no idea that they live near a factory farm, also known as a concentrated animal-feeding operation, or CAFO. The new and improved Factory Farm Map, created by Food and Water Watch, uses color coding and easy-to-understand stats to help consumers find factory-farm hotspots throughout the country. Using U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) data, consumers can easily drill down to the county level to see how many industrial farm animals are in each county of the United States.

...And virtually no region in the country is untouched by factory-farm operations that often deprive animals of sunlight, cleanliness, pasture, room to move, and high-quality feed. These large-scale operations also threaten local air and water quality, as raw manure runoff laced with antibiotics potentially contaminates groundwater. "While more and more light is being shed on the ways our food system is broken and consumers are increasingly interested in knowing where their food comes from, there is still a lot of information that’s hidden from public view," says Wenonah Hauter, executive director of Food and Water Watch. "The purpose of the Factory Farm Map is to provide an easy-to-use tool that anyone can access to learn more about where our food is really coming from."

See map:

http://www.rodale.com/factory-farm-map

Number of cows and calves slaughtered every 24 hours in the US: 90,000
Number of chickens slaughtered every minute in the US: 14,000
Food animals (not counting fish and other aquatic creatures) slaughtered per year in the US: 10 billion
Slaughterhouse:
Transcript of New York Times full page ad published June 22, 2001 detailing the horrors of our modern-day slaughterhouses. With 309-330 cows per hour coming by on the "disassembly" line, there are many who are still fully conscious with eyes wide open when skinned and cut apart. They die literally piece by piece.
Factory Farm Animals with Diseases from Intensive Conditions:
A report by the USDA estimates that 89% of US beef patties contain traces of the deadly E. coli strain. Reuters News Service 8/10/00
US pigs raised in total confinement factories where they never see the light of day until being trucked to slaughter: 65 million (total confinement factories are banned in Britain)

More disturbing stats:
http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafe...031604.cfm

They look like warehouses...with no animals to be seen. They are concentration camps!!! Going on right here, just like in Nazi Germany.

It's evil.

[BrownEye]

Definition of COMPASSION
: sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it

Synonyms: commiseration, sympathy, feeling

[Monica]

Professor John Webster, Department of Animal Husbandry, Bristol University says:

"The dairy cow is a supreme example of an overworked mother. She is the hardest working of all our farm animals and it can be scientifically calculated. It is equivalent to a jogger who goes out for six to eight hours a day which is a lunatic pursuit”. He states that almost 100 per cent of cows suffer from laminitis - a disease which causes 'great pain to the cow' (MAFF). Tissue lining of the foot becomes inflamed and may lead to ulcers. Professor Webster continues: "To understand the pain of laminitis it helps to imagine crushing your finger nails in the door then standing on your fingertips.
...The genetic manipulation and dietary controls which have led to their extraordinary output of milk carry with them a cost, all borne by the cow. She has a one-in-three chance of her udders secreting pus and painfully swelling with mastitis, and the antibiotics forced up her udders don't have much success in controlling the disease.

Because of the strain of carrying her oversized udders, she is likely to be amongst the one third of cows who are lame from foot and leg disorders. And her body consumes so much energy for milk production that her muscles simply waste away...the ugly truth is that a quarter of dairy cows are so exhausted by the process they never see their third year, despite having a life expectancy of 21 years or more. Most cows are killed at four to seven years, often pregnant when they die."

from http://www.factoryfarming.org.uk/dairy.html

see also:

The Life of a Dairy Cow

"Nightline" Exposed Dairy Cruelty
Undercover video showed cows abused at N.Y. dairy
The Humane Society of the United States

Contrary to the industry's advertising campaign filled with green pastures and happy cows, many of the nation's nine million dairy cows never step on a blade of grass in their lives.

Dairy's Dark Side: The Sour Truth about Milk

Far from leading the carefree lives portrayed in the dairy industry's "happy cow" commercials, the vast majority of cows used for dairy production today lead lives of deprivation, confinement, painful mutilations and cruel handling. These curious and intelligent animals are denied access to open pasture and treated as mere milk-producing machines - forced to live on manure-coated concrete floors in overcrowded sheds.

A new Mercy For Animals investigation is pulling back the curtains on the largest dairy factory farm in New York State – Willet Dairy in Locke. In early 2009 an MFA undercover investigator worked at the mega-dairy, secretly documenting egregious acts of animal cruelty, including neglect, with a hidden camera.

Evidence gathered during the investigation reveals:

Cows with bloody open wounds, prolapsed uteruses, pus-filled infections, and swollen joints, apparently left to suffer without veterinary care
"Downed" cows – those too sick or injured to even stand – left to suffer for weeks before dying or being killed
Workers hitting, kicking, punching, and electric-shocking cows and calves
Calves having their horns burned off without painkillers, as a worker shoved his fingers into the calves' eyes to restrain them
Calves having their tails cut off - a painful practice opposed by the American Veterinary Medical Association
Newborn calves forcibly dragged away from their mothers by their legs, causing emotional distress to both mother and calf
Cows living in overcrowded sheds on manure-coated concrete flooring
Workers injecting cows with a controversial bovine growth hormone, used to increase milk production
...Sadly, the inhumane conditions uncovered at this factory farm are not isolated. Whether raised for meat, dairy or eggs, animals used in food production are frequently subjected to appalling confinement, mutilations, brutal handling and slaughter. Because agribusiness values profit over ethical principles, cruelty to animals continues to run rampant on factory farms.

Thankfully, compassionate consumers can choose to withdraw their support of these abusive industries by adopting a vegan diet. Each time we eat we can choose kindness over cruelty.