The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology

[Nicholas]

This is the vice aspect of a virtuous movement, imo.

"I stopped being a feminist when I started teaching at university and saw, that the young men in my classes far from being privileged, were captive victims to a university wide propaganda machine telling them that they were no good. I stopped being a feminist when I saw the injustice, of equity hiring programs passed over well qualified men, in favour of lesser qualified women in the name of justice. And I just got tired, of the non stop celebration of all things feminine, and the non stop demonization of all things masculine."

[earth_spirit]

-----

[sjel]

If it were truly about equality it wouldn't be named after only one gender.

[Jade]

If it were truly about equality it wouldn't be named after only one gender.

Ah yes, what a shameful thing for mankind to do.

I would argue that we are still working to correct androcentrism. I mean, look at our discussions of Ra: Ra is so often called a he, even though Ra was channeled by a woman and any Ra channelings that you listen to are in a woman's voice.

Anyway, if you haven't read it yet, here is one of the latest Q'uo channelings, where Q'uo explains that after many generations of actively suppressing women and the divine feminine, the "overcorrection" might be difficult but it is a necessary part of the process:

http://llresearch.org/transcripts/issues..._0204.aspx

[Diana]

If it were truly about equality it wouldn't be named after only one gender.

I agree. Though any movement at all, while it brings awareness as all activism does, only constitutes a first step.

In my opinion, the next step—and the one which really changes existence—must be to simply (not easily) throw all labels away. In my opinion, advocacy maintains separation.

It happens within. If one doesn't feel oppressed, one isn't. If one doesn't let society create one's reality, one lives free. If one can remember that all prejudice derives from ignorance, then one can rise above and not operate from being victimized.

I know it's easy to say this. But I do think the way to change any sort of prejudice is to change one's reactions to it. From an observational point of view, humanity is still in an absurd state of melodrama. I try to proceed like an entrepreneur—proactively—jumping over whatever brick walls are in my way without judging them or labeling them. The male population may have a difficult time with gender conflicts, but everyone all over the place is having difficult times with something or other. The trick is not to focus on it.

Men who are here, and in the awakened community, can be the leading edge of change by being an example. Awakened women can also be on the leading edge of change by being an example. Not because being an example is the goal; rather, by living the truth of who one is—which is the point of being here at all in my opinion—one adds integrative and acceptance energy to the whole.

If there is a woman who wants equal pay because she's not getting it—she can make a case for it. If a man is being judged for being something he's not—he can ignore it knowing it's BS and continue to shine his good qualities. When you fight back at accusations or ignorance, it only adds power to that accusation or ignorance; if it doesn't affect you it has no power. It may not be easy, but it is what it is, and focusing on it just keeps it alive.

In other words, just deal with what is and go from there, shining who you are to all—not backwards into the quagmire of human drama. 

[anagogy]

I think a large part of the problem, not with just this, but with a whole host of other issues in our society is the extreme focus on *differences* rather than *similarities*. There is nothing wrong with differences, but when the focus is turned more towards those, than the similarities, you get a cancerous and parasitical ideology. You activate the vibration of separation more than the vibration of unity.

Like the word "man-kind", I don't see it as just referring to males, but females as well. There is "man" and there is "wo-man". Both are part of mankind. So I don't see that word in the same light as "feminism" which seems more focused on women. But that's not to say there couldn't be a better word. Maybe "humons" (<<--this makes me smile haha) I think if society focused more on just straight up "egalitarianism", there would be a lot of positive momentum generated in our society. Much of the same could be said for race.



[this is just a joke btw, in case that isn't clear]

[rva_jeremy]

I think a large part of the problem, not with just this, but with a whole host of other issues in our society is the extreme focus on *differences* rather than *similarities*. There is nothing wrong with differences, but when the focus is turned more towards those, than the similarities, you get a cancerous and parasitical ideology. You activate the vibration of separation more than the vibration of unity.

Very astute.  From my amateur research, one of the intellectual pedigrees of this focus on differences was a group of intellectuals in the WW2 era called the Frankfurt School.  They considered traditional marxism a failure in raising class consciousness to a revolutionary level and proposed to redirect the struggle towards the culture of Western capitalist societies.  The idea was to bring capitalism down from within by undermining the cultural supports on which capitalism rests, so ingrained in our lives and identities as it is.  This is where critical theory comes from: an academic project to level criticism at capitalist institutions, cultures, and practices without offering any better system.  The goal, according to the cultural marxism "conspiracy theory", is that by creating doubt and lowering morale in the West, socialism could be brought about much more easily.  This is largely where you see the kind of identity politics we're now accustomed to, as well as those weird departments at colleges like "________ Studies".  This critical theory point of view caught on in academia--pushed through by a lot of the 60s radicals who became academics--and when it spilled out of the academy it tended to go by the term "political correctness".

One of the reasons I think your observation is astute, anagogy, is that it is precisely the identification and celebration of differences that plays into an orientation that only seeks to criticize and never to propose an alternative.  Another reason I suspect this viewpoint has taken hold so strongly is that, by finding the error in everyday humans rather than in institutions and systems first and foremost, it privileges institutional remedies.  Those at the top of these institutions can therefore always prescribe another policy, rule, or finding that allows them to at least superficially track with social change.  Meanwhile, individuals are disposable--being, after all, mere petri dishes of racism, sexism, homophobia, and all sorts of other very human qualities that can only frustrate the larger ideological transformation of the culture.

I definitely consider myself a feminist but I recognize that, like any political movement, it is not uniform and is always contested ground--in other words, it's better to talk about particular feminists and particular feminists' ideas rather than lumping them all together as if there weren't differences between them.  And I do like this idea of looking for similarities instead because this is how broad-based political movements have actually operated: if you nitpick every little difference you'd never form a mass base.  What brings us together is our common humanity, and that is the basis for the solidarity that used to prevail on the Left.  I mean, we'd never have had a labor movement in this country if every laborer were screened for biases and -isms.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

I look at it this way regards race and sex.

Do you have blood? So do I.  We are similar enough.

Men bleed.
Women bleed.
All People bleed.

We're equal.

What is so hard to figure out??

[hounsic]

If it were truly about equality it wouldn't be named after only one gender.

I agree. Though any movement at all, while it brings awareness as all activism does, only constitutes a first step.

In my opinion, the next step—and the one which really changes existence—must be to simply (not easily) throw all labels away. In my opinion, advocacy maintains separation.

It happens within. If one doesn't feel oppressed, one isn't. If one doesn't let society create one's reality, one lives free. If one can remember that all prejudice derives from ignorance, then one can rise above and not operate from being victimized.

I know it's easy to say this. But I do think the way to change any sort of prejudice is to change one's reactions to it. From an observational point of view, humanity is still in an absurd state of melodrama. I try to proceed like an entrepreneur—proactively—jumping over whatever brick walls are in my way without judging them or labeling them. The male population may have a difficult time with gender conflicts, but everyone all over the place is having difficult times with something or other. The trick is not to focus on it.

Men who are here, and in the awakened community, can be the leading edge of change by being an example. Awakened women can also be on the leading edge of change by being an example. Not because being an example is the goal; rather, by living the truth of who one is—which is the point of being here at all in my opinion—one adds integrative and acceptance energy to the whole.

If there is a woman who wants equal pay because she's not getting it—she can make a case for it. If a man is being judged for being something he's not—he can ignore it knowing it's BS and continue to shine his good qualities. When you fight back at accusations or ignorance, it only adds power to that accusation or ignorance; if it doesn't affect you it has no power. It may not be easy, but it is what it is, and focusing on it just keeps it alive.

In other words, just deal with what is and go from there, shining who you are to all—not backwards into the quagmire of human drama. 

I don't think you could of said it any better!

[isis]

This is Nazi Paikidze and she's the United States Women's Chess Champion. The World Women's Chess Championship just started in Iran, but she won't be attending because she'd have to wear a Hijab, but she doesn't believe in oppression of women.


This is Dorsa Derakhshani. She's an Iranian chess grandmaster expelled from the national team for not wearing hijab.






Marion Le Pen's speech against modern feminism

[Nicholas]

in other words, it's better to talk about particular feminists and particular feminists' ideas rather than lumping them all together as if there weren't differences between them.  

Yes! That's why I shared this particular video. Camille Paglia is a feminist that has been ostracised from the feminist movement. And I suspect it is because she is too in touch with her masculinity. 

My critique of the feminist movement, in general, is that it is failing to teach males about their intrinsic femininity. It is not so much that we need more female leaders (good luck with that agenda!). A more realistic goal is that we need more leaders that are conscious of their own feminine quality. The physical gender type is actually irrelevant imo. 

Take Margaret Thatcher as an example. She once said "If you want something said ask a man. If you want something done ask a woman." 

This is so antithetical to feminism as I understand it because doing or acting is a masculine quality. Margaret was a lady profoundly in touch with her own intrinsic masculinity. This is the misguided nature of feminism thought as I currently perceive it. 

Stop trying to feminise men with "guy liner" and "man cream", this is totally missing the point, and as a result, more males are feeling lower in value and more confused than ever. The bloody law courts are totally bias towards a mothers plea. This is understandable when you observe the courage of a female bear protecting her cub, or a female duck refusing to fly away in the face of humans attempting to investigate her young (dad flew off at the first sight!). 

And the current bias in law is yet another example of masculine suppression. Males are expendable, they do the physical work because they are built that way (mining, construction, agriculture), therefore they are less equipped to care for their offspring. Women, by design, are obviously favoured. And this is the heart of the problem as I see it. Young males are being deprived of a male role model and females are expected to fill the void. How the heck can they act as masculine role models when their bloody attempt of union resulted in a law suit!

And so an ever increasing male surrogate is delegated to prison officers, to drug cartel leaders, to porn pimps and so on, which inevitably aids in perpetuating the patriarchal pattern. 

Again, my main critique of feminism in general is that they are failing to teach males how to act. And they can only do that by talking to males, rather than grouping them all up as patriarchal oppressors.

[Nicholas]

This is Nazi Paikidze and she's the United States Women's Chess Champion. The World Women's Chess Championship just started in Iran, but she won't be attending because she'd have to wear a Hijab, but she doesn't believe in oppression of women.


This is Dorsa Derakhshani. She's an Iranian chess grandmaster expelled from the national team for not wearing hijab.






Marion Le Pen's speech against modern feminism

Isis, I get your point. Multicultural/bio-diverse values are clearly related. But the propaganda you are sharing relates more to postmodernism and not to western feminism.

[Glow]

I'm really appalled that so many men here are unaware of exactly WHY we need to start celebrating women.

I'm stinking amazed. We are one. Look at how women even in first world nations are degraded. Tell me guys do you want to be treated like sex objects, like your very value depends on how you measure up to a standard men created for you.

Look at politics Hollywood you name it. No matter what a woman does she is judged for how she looks while men(other than Trump) can look how ever they want to and be judged on their merit alone.

SMC often mentioned the boys club here. I didn't see it but jeeze I guess I was seeing you through my we are all one filter and anyone who truely believed that would certainly see women have been getting the short end if the stick for as long as recorded time goes.

[Glow]

(Removed by mod.)

Dear fucking god are you really this diluted? Women ARE NOT LAZY!!!

You are so ignorant. Women had no rights even 40 years ago women were controlled and were not even allowed to vote women went to work when it became necessary due to ww2. The women that did go were told they were neglecting their families.
Hell even now in Russia they made it legal again for men to beat their wives and the USA is trying to take away a woman's control of her own body re: abortion.

How the HELL are you trying to spin this to blame women.

For centuries before we were ALLOWED to work outside the home we were treated like cattle owned controlled, no freedom because we had no way to support our offspring.

Even now men ditching their mates to replace them with younger that is the patriarchy teaching still that women are only useful for sex and reproduction. When a woman ages out time to "get a new broodmare"

I'm shocked no point discussing things with men who cannot even see the very obvious. Good luck ladies.

[earth_spirit]

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[smc]

If it were truly about equality it wouldn't be named after only one gender.

"you can't be annoyed at feminism being called feminism when the entire history of the human race is called mankind"

[APeacefulWarrior]

There's a such more subtle and corrosive problem with all these various pro-women and pro-men movements, and how they are -in one way or another- trying to define what is and is not acceptable behavior for each of the sexes.  When pushed by people who view gender as a strict binary split, it takes on a very yin-yang aspect, where it's impossible to alter one gender without also altering the other gender.

Which is to say, any attempt to declare what a "real man" is also defines what a "real woman" is not.  And the reverse, and the inverse. Likewise for any roles, aspects, morals, and behaviors. Saying "a woman should do (X)" almost always implies that "a man should not do (X)."

That is, in my opinion, why it's almost impossible to have discussions like this, which treat men and women as though they are on opposing sides, without it almost immediately turning heated and angry. Any attempt to define or broadly stereotype either gender automatically and necessarily stereotypes the other gender as well. What affects one gender affects both, and when people don't understand this, it causes a lot of problems while rarely bringing about any useful solutions.

[Infinite Unity]

Peaceful great post, as usual, very informative. I agree with you.

I think it is beyond question that gender manipulation is happening at a social level though.

I believe the majority of people involved with movements, do really believe in what they are doing and the movement is doing. However I don't think the leadership of such organizations, have the same goal as they sell. I am of the belief that one of the elites main weapons is infiltration. You let people start and organize such things, but then infiltrate leadership roles using various strategies.Then you have loyal people to 'the cause', whilst leadership only uses it as leverage either on the social, political or judicial platforms. Never really changing or healing anyone or any problem usually.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

I think its important that we realize each others geographic situation on these subjects.  Earth Spirit doesn't live in the US, his opinion and views will differ enough so to be upsetting to someone.

By that logic, the entire world is detuned.  Further, subjection of either male or female to ANY labels or actions as gender centric is what I think earth spirit was getting at despite doing so in the process, as many do while looking for ways out of those naming and direction schemes.

I also lack the personal understanding of why these areas are so hard for people to discuss.  I am a privileged while male.  Who's had several women make my life miserable and yet the worst I do is fantasize about both male and female forms to try and not fall to my own self belief of being a victim.

That is also what I feel should be addressed.  People who were poorly treated, women, homosexual men, people who were genocided, jews and native americans, people who were enslaved, african americans.

All done by the white man.  What does it take to end sexual and racial inequality?

I treat everyone as best I can handle as myself, while still trying to be culturally respectful, especially to the more sensitive communities who love to turn around and be racist at their own perception of ignorance in another or sexist for the same reason.

How does one meet an extremely polarized feminist or black lives matter activist, who condemn me for being born a white male, even with me saying we are equal, only to be called sexist, racist, ignorant, stupid.

If you believe in female equality, demand it, but don't belittle men to do so.
If you believe in racial equality, demand it, but don't belittle causcasian people.

If you want something, give it first.  Don't accept its opposite, meet racism with forgiveness and and acceptance.

Make those agents of separation, of difference, of inequality, see the bridge of unity, equality, similarity.

We all bleed, we all should help keep one another from bleeding.  We all hurt, we all should help keep one another from hurting.

That's how I see things anyway...

[Diana]

Let's not blame the men at B4 for our long history of female oppression. If a man is here, he is likely trying to evolve spiritually. And let's not blame women for the results of that oppression. Stereotyping is part of that oppression. Why fight when we can try to inform, connect, open our minds to all expression, and rise above human drama? You know the old saying about glass houses and stones.

Regarding the word "mankind." As far as I know, we have been using "humankind" for a long time, at least in the US. So why fight about the past?

Why not allow expression here, whatever it is or may be, and then see how understanding and connection might be achieved? Bear in mind that understanding and connection won't be achieved if you are rigidly (and therefore blindly) clinging to your "side." Consider also that your "side" may be informed on a subconscious level by societal BS. There are obviously facts, just as there are facts about animal abuse in which discussions I have been deeply involved here, and these can be distinguished from wishful thinking, hyperbole, and exaggeration based on emotional reactions. Allowing the self to react from triggers which may or may not be true however, is good for bringing awareness to self, but will not directly raise the general vibration here. It's your choice. Casting blame and judging others for being low vibration seem like oxymorons to me.

[earth_spirit]

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[Jade]

Regarding the word "mankind." As far as I know, we have been using "humankind" for a long time, at least in the US. So why fight about the past?

No one's fighting about the past. This is what is represented at present:

Mankind: 91.5 results on google
Humankind: 15.2 million results on Google.

Mankind: 660 results on Bring4th.org
Humankind: 260 results on Bring4th.org

I'm not even saying this is a big deal, it's a strange battle to pick. But the point is that I think it's less helpful to pretend these biases aren't inherent in the system. If you think it was  "problem in the past", then you should be willing to look at the ongoing problem.

How does one meet an extremely polarized feminist or black lives matter activist, who condemn me for being born a white male, even with me saying we are equal, only to be called sexist, racist, ignorant, stupid.

The thing is that here, you are speaking of a hypothetical where someone attacks your gender/race (since when was race brought into this?). A few posts above yours, there are some completely incendiary claims towards women, including that women are too lazy to create anything of value, and that women indoctrinate/manipulate men into providing for them, and also that women rape men by wearing makeup and altering their appearance. How am I supposed to respond to that is the real question, because it's a real scenario that we are all currently dealing with in this thread.

I think it's fascinating that a man can say these things about a woman, but a woman comes in and says the word "detuned" and suddenly she's the aggressor causing division.

Is it really that hard to see how our society is inherently biased in one direction?

It's interesting you bring up animal abuse here, Diana, because I believe that our system of enslaving females of other species to produce food for us by exploiting their reproductive cycles is also a symptom of the extreme bias in our system, or in the very least silently helps perpetuate it. Talk about parasitic and cancerous ideologies that activate the vibrations of separation!

[Bring4th_Austin]

Some posts about the balance/imbalance of Bring4th (a valid discussion worth having) have been moved to the Community Relationships forum here: http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=14210

[earth_spirit]

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[Diana]

Regarding the word "mankind." As far as I know, we have been using "humankind" for a long time, at least in the US. So why fight about the past?

No one's fighting about the past. This is what is represented at present:

Mankind: 91.5 results on google
Humankind: 15.2 million results on Google.

Mankind: 660 results on Bring4th.org
Humankind: 260 results on Bring4th.org

I'm not even saying this is a big deal, it's a strange battle to pick. But the point is that I think it's less helpful to pretend these biases aren't inherent in the system. If you think it was  "problem in the past", then you should be willing to look at the ongoing problem.

Okay. First of all, I didn't pick that battle, if that's what you meant. I was trying to diffuse some of the focus on what's wrong, and perhaps focus on any progress we may have made as a culture. Your search engine results tell a bleak story. But when you consider the bulk of human population it's not surprising.

I am aware of the ongoing problem. I just deal with it differently. I'm not an activist.

Let me give you an example from a chapter in my life. In the late eighties I was an advertising illustrator. Most of the creative directors and business owners I dealt with as a freelancer were male. I was young and attractive. They all without fail hit on me constantly. I could have felt victimized. I could have complained, or gotten into a huff. But what I did was simply bring the conversations back to point without pretending their comments didn't exist, but at the same time giving them no consequence, all without judging or feeling abused. So I know it's possible to rise above the gender conflict. I do realize my example does not compare in terms of difficulty to some of the extreme situations women may find themselves in.

It's interesting you bring up animal abuse here, Diana, because I believe that our system of enslaving females of other species to produce food for us by exploiting their reproductive cycles is also a symptom of the extreme bias in our system, or in the very least silently helps perpetuate it. Talk about parasitic and cancerous ideologies that activate the vibrations of separation!

I consider the animal kingdom quite different than humankind. Animals, who don't have choice, are at the mercy of humans. Humans, while it appears they are at the mercy of other humans, really aren't at some level of choice. There is also the human collective responsibility of consciousness for what we have created and perpetuated.

But I do recognize your correlation here. It is much like alien abduction and experimentation. The correlation would be between another more technologically evolved species taking advantage of a lesser evolved species and conducting painful procedures without conscious consent. Perhaps the abuse/control of females in human society is, among other things, a mirror for recognizing the abuse perpetrated upon animals.

My approach to human culture is to get outside of it. Seeking equality outside of self is a dubious proposition considering the sate of humanity. I'd rather spend my energy creating my self than changing society. I may wish humanity was more evolved—especially in the case of animal abuse—but there is that pesky free will thing, and while bringing awareness is definitely within the scope of helping change, fighting for change—which is control—is not my choice. Activism is necessary apparently in our unevolved culture at this time, but there are other ways to add to the light.

[Glow]

For centuries before we were ALLOWED to work outside the home we were treated like cattle owned controlled, no freedom because we had no way to support our offspring.

I understand your knee-jerk resorting to the feminist historical revisionism angle, but no one with a clue is going to be fooled by such rhetoric. It is clear that you have not paid any attention to my posts.

That said, it is interesting that you would dramatically "quit" the forum for not fitting your standards, the implication being that this entire community should be policed into conformity. I am sincerely grateful for your transparent attempt at manipulation.

I returned to see how my post read since yours was removed. Still valid I'm leaving it up.

Darling i love that you call it revisionism. Try lived it, I just turned 40 so caught the tail end before stuff started to change.

My mother was divorced by her husband when I was 4. 1980 got a job selling life insurance making ok money but had to get a note with written permission from either her father or ex husband to buy a fridge even though she had cash.

This was acceptable and even normal, I'm not sure if you are just to young or have been blinded to what you do not want to see but it's time you brace yourself and look at what shaped our global society.

Even 10 years ago it was not unusual to hear men say they didn't want a wife that worked because it emasculated them. There are literally shirts call wife beaters, do you know why? I do. My uncle, my grandad and many very masculine men I grew up around wore them on lazy days around the house 25 years ago.

Guess what they really thought nothing of beating their wife if they had to much to drink or were in a mood and he felt the need to pass on what ever anger he had picked up at work or hanging out with friends. A woman was deemed property and even walking down the street if you heard s woman screaming and a man yelling it was culturaly approiate to keep walking because "it was between a man and HIS wife".

I don't blame men for creating the system they were controlled and oppressed by religious and national leaders. the bible even is quite explicit in teaching men to see themselves as superior. Men just perpetuated it, and did so for all known time. Now we have women perpetuating it to. It's culturally endemic. The human culture.

The historic leaders crush men, men crush men of different races and all races crush their women. I'm not even mad I just think we have all been duped and expected so called enlightened people to see it's wrong. Mocking women or races for asserting their self worth when they have always been demeaned lacks understanding that it is a necessary step of breaking the shackles of perceived insubordination.

There is this thing called empathy I'm very very good at it. Green ray. I can empathize with all beings who are or have been repressed. I celebrate all groups diversity and dear god I love men too.

It must be a bit unsettling to have the slanted board game settle towards a more balanced position, to be told that the predisesors of our species hurt people enslaved and controlled them and while they were like you and had a distinct advantage over others you unfortunately will not have that same advantage for long. I'm sure as you id not want to see it. I'd hope the board game would stay slanted since it served me most, I'd also want to deny this in myself. Geeze dude we are all one.

Men won't stand up and try to rebalance things so women are left to then they are labaled feminatzi. Well men then fix it yourself and we will be grateful like I am towards my husband and every man who is willing to help fix the issues. Same with race issues God we are all beautiful every sex every race, no better no worse the end.

If you are racist or have an inability to see the suffering of others and want to correct it, guess what that's a lesson you are avoiding and likely will chose to come back female or of that race so you can learn to see yourself in that vantage point. Easier to just open your eyes from where you are now.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Eh heh, um.  I just want to say, I don't see these accusations being made, here, on b4.  Maybe I misunderstood e_s cause I consider him a friend but I didn't see him exclusively say 'all women are lazy' or 'all women manipulate', don't over generalize an already generalized statement.

A.

B. That women blew up on him for his opinion, and then his being a man being the reason, are all hypocritical double standards for this very topic.

C. I clump racism and sexism as things worthy of being discussed together because at the most core of their roots, are the same causes.

D. I will now attempt to meet you all as a human being to other human beings, not a man to a group, but a human.

Semantics have now muddied this discussion into a debate of man and woman getting jumpy at each other's throats (symbolic metaphor).

Lets step back, and disassemble this debate back into a discussion.

When I ask how something should be handled, and you instead say 'this' is the real question, I feel like I've been ignored because I'm a man.  I am a guy, yes, okay, I'm sorry for that, but I shouldn't have to be!  I say I see man and woman as equal, and you get mad at me.  I say I see no reason to differentiate, and I'm met with pushing of differentiation.

I say I don't see e_s claiming what is being claimed of him, and I'm ignored, seemingly because he and I are men making perhaps ignorant and biased opinions.

Now why don't you tell me why you view this as reason to defend yourself?  He's not talking about anyone here (I strongly assume for him), he's not saying what you're all saying he's saying.  He's just giving an opinion.

I didn't say anything about SMC, except that by her logic of finding b4 detuned based on the opinions in this thread, that the entire world is detuned.  Speaking of detuned, I've seen 'detuned' conversation on b4 as far back as 2009, people like that, who bring such catalyst are integral to the spiritual example this community can show and set.  Instead I see the same thing.  Someone says an opinion, someone gets angry, a battle of groups begins.

Who here has tried to make a bridge of understanding to something they judge as wholly ignorant and even abusive?  Who here has said, Wait!  Listen!  Lets love and forgive rather than fight?

I want that, now.  I demand it of you all as a seeker seeking love in a place of seekers seeking love.

Lets all just step back, and try this again, please?  We're devolving into a fight, we're better than this.  Lets fight to understand each other, not to defeat one another.

I believe women, and racial minorities, are oppressed to this day on Earth in parts and places.  I believe white men are overly privileged (said the privileged white man), and I believe womankind and the divine feminine have been constantly attacked by an over embroidered masculinity.

I believe the only way to end this inequality is to show equality until it catches on with the rest.  Women's rights are STILL not ratified by all the state's of America.  In israel its basically a crime to be a woman without a man.

You don't want to call me sexist, I'm aware of my feelings of misogyny, I refuse to allow them or the decade of porn brainwashing to make me truly feel a woman is any different from I.

I greatly admire the female form, it is truly one of divine beauty that should be treated with integrity, dignity, pride, love, and respect.
I feel (less sexually so) the same about the male formations and energies.
I feel the same on racial levels.

Lets not begin pushing to expose our differences.  Lets find some spiritual solutions to these problems, then from there figure out how to combat the various energies that obscure this solution finding scheme.

Remember, male is female, female is male.  Let's not be upset by someone's opinion because of who they are saying it.

[Glow]

C.A. I think you have your filter on like I did till this thread.
Look at your last post and tell me if you can still make those points about what he was saying.

I will go on record as saying I love men. This isn't man vs women this is a correction to balance. I have more male friends than women because my personality while loving and nurturing is really more male. Play hard try idiotic dangerous things for fun. Female body unisex mind

For what it's worth, I'll try to make a more sympathetic post.

I do not feel that I am trying to shift the accountability on women because it is easier. It is actually much harder. It is either that:

-Men have oppressed women since millenia

-Or women have manipulated the silly souls of men and used them as pawns to oppress other women, men and children.

^Which one do you think is easier for a man to accept? Even now, I am afraid of rereading Anatomy of Female Power because of how painful it is. The truth is a lot more convoluted than the easily digested feminist rhetoric that men are the patriarchal bogeyman responsible for it all.

There are some trains of thought that, without detachment, make me start crying in seconds.

*War
*Starvation
*Animal cruelty
*The thought of incarnating as a female. Why? Because I would be just like the women whom I used to despise. There would be a vanishingly small chance for me to see beyond the societal indoctrination and reach out to men whom I currently adore in genuine sympathy, let alone empathy.

Speaking of despising women; rest assured I have not since a long time but at some point my contempt (not hate) of women had grown to such heights that I started to despise men as well, for being of the same species..

So I make an attempt to speak what I perceive to be true. Not because I have much faith that it'll make a difference, but out of passion.

"He was a lonely ghost uttering a truth that nobody would ever hear. But so long as he uttered it, in some obscure way the continuity was not broken. It was not by making yourself heard but by staying sane that you carried on the human heritage."
George Orwell

[Jade]

Okay. First of all, I didn't pick that battle, if that's what you meant. I was trying to diffuse some of the focus on what's wrong, and perhaps focus on any progress we may have made as a culture. Your search engine results tell a bleak story. But when you consider the bulk of human population it's not surprising.

I meant more that my picking of the battle was absurd, didn't mean to make that accusation towards you. I just felt silly even perpetuating the argument.

I greatly admire the female form,

Thanks for that, it's really validating, especially after all the justification you do for earth_spirit's post, which was extremely hateful all around.

My whole point was to counter that the implication in this thread that gynocentrism is a potential problem, when the REAL, current, active problem is how deeply rooted our androcentricism is still.

I wasn't trying to sweep your feelings as a male under the rug. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about how males have also been oppressed by our androcentric society (by being forced to suppress their femininity to fit in with desired stereotypes). Our problems have the same cause: Societal indoctrination. And this doesn't start with the mother, as neat and tidy as that accusation happens to be.

The fact that you even stoop to giving females the value of worship because of their "form" - how absurd would it be if I said that? "Well, I hate the oppressive patriarchy, but I really admire the physical structure of the male body so I guess I just have to put up with it!"

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to just say whatever you want without others getting to "blow up on you". If you say something extremely hateful, the target of that speech has the right to speak out against you. What surprises me is that MORE people didn't speak out against the hate speech! If we're actually all one, and as APW says, anything that happens to one gender happens to the other - then why aren't there any men who are upset that e_s called women lazy and without value? (This was a blanket statement he made, not "some women" or "I believe this could be the case". It was a full stop.) Nick presented what could possibly have been a fruitful topic of discussion, but it got dragged into the mud with extremism. The fact that the "women blowing up on him" are again, perceived as the aggressors in this topic, is ludicrous. They weren't blowing up on him because he's a man, they were blowing up on him because he said hateful things about women. It just so happens that these two things usually coincide, by nature of polarity.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Glow, as a man who's called others the n word, and who has watched porn and objectified for over a decade women, I strongly believe I am filtered with bias and that I might not be seeing things the same way others do.

E_s has left now, he felt oppressed just for stating his opinions that he lovingly shared in transparency and honesty to you all.  He did not mean to upset...  And in turn everything that was trying to be made into a point here has actually occurred.

A man shared a manly biased opinion.  A woman got mad at the man.  The man defended, the woman defended.  Then more men and women jumped in.

So please hear me out.

That ignorance, that prejudice you hear in e_s, we all have that.  Lets not attack, lets not squabble.

Please forgive him for he knows not what he says, even if he does.  Please forgive me, for my obstinate and arrogant attempt at quelling the fight of man and woman.

I forgive you all, I forgive e_s for leaving even though I really really REALLY don't want him to go...  I forgive him for any arrogance and ignorance.  I forgive Jade, you, SMC, Nicholas, and everyone here, because we are trying to do something that is known to incite everything from disagreements to violence.

Let's forgive for our judgments and opinions and understandings, and try to come to a resolution.

I as a man, apologize for what men have done to women, it's an empty husk of an apology when compared in contrast to what men have done to women.  The same apology and issues apply when I say, as a white person, I apologize for the genocide and abuse and control other white people have committed on nonwhite people.

Its grotesque, and I have no doubt one day the white people will share in the misery they helped manifest as will the men of all races.

But right now, we are trying to find equality.  Should we be upset by every opinion we disagree with?  Sure!  But here, in this space and this time, can't we hold off on trying to see someone as being right or wrong, and instead try to share in an equally honest and transparent way your own opinion without accosting another's as lesser, or ignorant?

I'm sorry please forgive me, I don't understand the tenacity of defensiveness here.  I don't see e_s being sexist, he respects women, he has opinions but so do I but I respect women.

And if you want to nullify our respect, as distorted and strange or even perverse as it may be, please understand that in doing so, you damage our respect for women.

And yet still we persist with respect, we are only Human, we fail at this too.

Lets forgive.  I forgive you all, and I wouldn't have myself feel any other way in a discussion as volatile as this one.

I did not perceive hatred in e_s's post, I'm sorry for not seeing it the way you all have.  You needn't worry anyway, he's gone now...

Jade, I especially believe that you are now just as much in hatred as you perceive e_s to be. My admiration of the female form is of its divinity. The body is a tool, I speak of admiring that which uses a tool so elegantly and eloquently and so powerfully in abstract and intuitive ways. I speak of an appreciation for the divine unconsciousness that is the feminine. Please understand... I'm being assigned traits others perceive of me. I just want us all to be treated with equality, and to not be inured or encumbered by the inequality perceived to be between us all...