Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
03-21-2020, 02:42 AM,
#1
Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
The question which have been puzzling me since I first became acquainted with Confederation message is how come that Christianity doesn't have any thorough meditation path?

Q'uo made a distinction between Christianity and Buddhism by saying that the former is "active and inclusive" path, while the latter is "passive and reductive". They also affiliated themselves with "active and inclusive" path, so they are, speaking roughly, Christians.

November 22, 2008 Wrote:...We wish to thank the one known as G for this query. It enables us to look at the two paths of seeking which may be called “passive and reductive” and “active and inclusive.” The passive and reductive path is that which we would characterize as the Buddhist way, the Way of the Yogis. The beginning of the path is seen as one of chaos and a world of confusion and suffering. The end of the path is seen as the end of suffering and the reduction of all chaos into the “zero” of the uncluttered and empty mind.

In contrast, the way of activity and inclusiveness might be characterized as that Western way, which is understood by this instrument as the Christian way, where there is a journey from the beginning which is a similar landscape to the beginning of the Buddhist way, full of chaos and suffering. However, the end of this way is seen as a journey into more and more fullness of content, more and more connection to the world, until the world becomes holy or sacred.

In its way of describing that which is the spiritual journey, the Confederation, as you call our group, leans more towards the inclusive path than the reductive path. And yet both are views of the same process and the same underlying reality, if we may use that term in such a world of illusion as is the Creation....


And yet Confederation always stress meditation as the most effective, swift method of spiritual development which is available to anyone. But strangely enough, meditation, as well as visualisation, are tools, which are most profoundly developed within Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism aka Vajrayana. In Vajrayana, they have all sort of visualisational and meditative techiques, most prominent of them are Mahamudra (tib. Chagchen) and Mahasandhi (tib. Dzogchen). It is said that some most realized Dzogchen adepts are able dissolve their mortal bodies back into light at the time of death, this is called "rainbow body".

In contrast, I was able to find the only Christian way which resembles meditation in Eastern Ortodox Church, and that path is *hesychasm*. Their main aim is to achieve complete inner silence to make that clean sacred place for a sincere prayer, uninterrupted and free from thoughts. In this silence they pray a very simple and short prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner." They have rather elaborate theory and practice of cutting off any thoughts and intentions. They also utilize breathing method, low sitting posture with the head close to knees and have stages from basic one up to seeing "god light". Many of them choose a life of a hermit.

So, to sum it up, why do you think Christianity doesn't have meditation way as Buddhism has?

And why Confederation, being active/inclusive Christians suggests a method which is most developed within passive/reductive tradition which is Buddhism?

And what saddens me the most is Eastern Orthodox Church has a uniform opinion that meditation is in direct opposition to christian prayer, that is basically their official opinion if you ask any Father, just like they think that Buddhism is in direct opposition to Christianity. Did any one read any comments from Confederation on that seeming contradiction?
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03-21-2020, 08:30 AM,
#2
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
(03-21-2020, 02:42 AM)flow Wrote:  So, to sum it up, why do you think Christianity doesn't have meditation way as Buddhism has?

Firstly, I suppose you are talking about ortodox Christianity. Because there are esoteric branches of Christianity.

The ortodox Christianity is a set of teachings which were very distorted from the original source Jesus due the Orion intervention in Earth in ancient times. The premise of God and Jesus as separated beings of us, and we as only unconditional worshipers of them, are serious inversions of Law of One. So, the Christianity tradition is about worship God and Jesus as salvation. The Eastern traditions being about work on yourself until the enlightenment would be achieved. Thus, the last is much less distorted.

(03-21-2020, 02:42 AM)flow Wrote:  And why Confederation, being active/inclusive Christians suggests a method which is most developed within passive/reductive tradition which is Buddhism?

Where did you see the Confederation being active/inclusive Christians?

(03-21-2020, 02:42 AM)flow Wrote:  And what saddens me the most is Eastern Orthodox Church has a uniform opinion that meditation is in direct opposition to christian prayer, that is basically their official opinion if you ask any Father, just like they think that Buddhism is in direct opposition to Christianity. Did any one read any comments from Confederation on that seeming contradiction?

Well, perhaps there is some transcript about this. But they don't like judge the things. I see a positive thing in Christianity. Some branchs focus on unconditional love. That was the true message of Jesus.
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flofrog
03-21-2020, 09:15 AM,
#3
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
Infinite, I am quite confused by your response.

(03-21-2020, 08:30 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Firstly, I suppose you are talking about ortodox Christianity. Because there are esoteric branches of Christianity...
The Eastern traditions being about work on yourself until the enlightenment would be achieved. Thus, the last is much less distorted.
i _am_ talking about eastern christiniaty, which is spiritual successor of Byzantine christianity.
and esoteric eastern orthodox christianity _is_ hesychasm which i described. they have the saying "the heart of christianity is orthtodox christianity, the heart of orthodox christianity is hesychasm". one of the prominent centers of eastern orthodox christianity is Mount Athos (Greece), which is the center of hesychasm.


(03-21-2020, 08:30 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Where did you see the Confederation being active/inclusive Christians?
here's the quote again:
"...In its way of describing that which is the spiritual journey, the Confederation, as you call our group, _leans more towards the inclusive path than the reductive path_"
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03-21-2020, 11:48 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-21-2020, 11:48 AM by flofrog.)
#4
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
(03-21-2020, 08:30 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Well, perhaps there is some transcript about this. But they don't like judge the things. I see a positive thing in Christianity. Some branchs focus on unconditional love. That was the true message of Jesus.


I think christianity has mostly distorted the message of Jesus, I agree with you Infinite, his essential message was unconditional love. I am sure meditation was part of his teachings.

I think also that later on through the hierarchy of priests, there was a subtle aim to weaken the personal link between the layman and Creator. Not unlike when Ra speaks of Akhenaten whose intent to apply the Law of One was taken over later by the priests regaining power.
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sillypumpkins
03-21-2020, 02:49 PM,
#5
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
Prayer is meditation.

There is actually a difference between western and eastern traditions on the meaning of the word meditation. What it means in Eastern traditions is typical of Buddhist and Yogic schools. In the Western tradition this type of meditation is referred to as 'scrying'. In Kabbalah and other parts of the Western tradition the term meditation more refers to focused contemplation. This is also differentiated from visualization, which is actually used in lots of Western practice (any time someone thinks of Jesus on the Cross, or a Saint, or symbolize the Trinity, etc, etc, these are all acts of visualizations).

These different meditative methods are like metabolism, one deals with building up, one deals with breaking down. Whereas the Eastern yogi or buddhist seeks to know the truth of themselves in emptiness, the Western seeks completeness. The thing is that on a certain level when these things are grasped they are basically the same realization coming from different angles.

Although I am a big fan of emptiness meditation, I think it is a different tool than one which fills.
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03-21-2020, 02:55 PM,
#6
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
(03-21-2020, 02:42 AM)flow Wrote:  So, to sum it up, why do you think Christianity doesn't have meditation way as Buddhism has?

I can offer you a few thoughts on the topic.
  • The Confederation, so called, would naturally be made up of those disposed towards active service because, by definition, they are a self-selected group disposed towards active service.  Their more introverted counterparts are busy offering service by doing more solitary practices.
  • There is a long tradition of Christian ascetic adepts, from St. Anthony in the Egyptian desert in the early years to Father Grigory Rasputin in more modern times.  Padre Pio also comes to mind and there are many others.
  • In Buddhism, Christianity and many other religious cults there are always very few adepts and a great many non-adepts.  In that respect, I see no great difference between them.  I think that what you're responding to is that Christianity puts no great emphasis on adepthood and (outside of a few specific orders) offer little specific guidance for attaining such, whereas Indic religions overflow with information about adepts, both positive and negative, as well as methods for gaining such power.
  • I was under the impression that Russia has a long history of this sort of thing in the area of Siberia, which some presume was influenced by the local shamanic traditions.  This is where Rasputin was said to have learned his craft.  You might be able to track down more information by searching in that direction rather than inquiring of the local priests.
 
 
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03-22-2020, 11:55 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-22-2020, 11:56 AM by Infinite.)
#7
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
(03-21-2020, 09:15 AM)flow Wrote:  Infinite, I am quite confused by your response.

i _am_ talking about eastern christiniaty, which is spiritual successor of Byzantine christianity.
and esoteric eastern orthodox christianity _is_ hesychasm which i described. they have the saying "the heart of christianity is orthtodox christianity, the heart of orthodox christianity is hesychasm". one of the prominent centers of eastern orthodox christianity is Mount Athos (Greece), which is the center of hesychasm.

Let's simplificate. In my response I was talking about orthodox Christianity.

(03-21-2020, 09:15 AM)flow Wrote:  here's the quote again:
"...In its way of describing that which is the spiritual journey, the Confederation, as you call our group, _leans more towards the inclusive path than the reductive path_"

OK I understand now.

Firstly, we must not forget the possibility of distortion in the channeling.

Well, I see both paths as valid. But I understand what they meant. It is that nowadays it is more valuable or useful to live in cities and seek the ideal processing of catalysis and the constant refinement of energy centers. This is due to the large amount of catalysis available for learning when dealing with others. The Buddhist or yogic path are more restrictive and isolating. But as Ra said, one learns faster from other beings because they are mirrors of ourselves:

Quote:The quickest way to learn is to deal with other-selves. This is a much greater catalyst than dealing with the self. Dealing with the self without other-selves is akin to living without what you would call mirrors. Thus, the self cannot see the fruits of its beingness. Thus, each may aid each by reflection. This is also a primary reason for the weakening of the physical vehicle, as you call the physical complex.
(19.13)

Well, I look for a mix of both ways. I will not isolate myself at the top of a mountain. I live in the city and work, but I will renounce that distorted / negative as far as possible. I see the Buddhist and Yoga systems as powerful catalysts for our learning. There are, for example, certain meditations that deal with the reaction to catalysis every second. A kind of meditation at every moment. They also have a lot of metaphysical knowledge about reality. Anyway, I think it is possible to mix both.
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flofrog
03-22-2020, 03:37 PM,
#8
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
I remember reading an old exchange between Carla and another person, where Carla mentioned those two paths in terms of that of "the heart" vs. of "the mind" and her belief that that of "the heart", i.e. the "active and inclusive" one, was the right one for her.

This may or may not be reflected in the channeled message.

The two approaches are also described in Gnosis vol. I by Boris Mouravieff. The Fourth Way presentation he gives is that which most directly ties the Fourth Way teaching (more well-known in Gurdjieff's version) to esoteric Orthodox Christianity.

Gnosis, vol. I Wrote:Two practical methods are recommended by the Tradition to develop the faculty of discernment: each of them is adapted to one of the two types of exterior man most widespread in our civilization:

- The negative method, or method of exclusion, is recommended to man 3, that is, the intellectual type;
- The positive method, or method of integration, is recommended to man 2, the emotional type.

The value of each of these two methods is equal. The difference is, that if he follows the first the seeker will not see the light except at the peak of his efforts; if he follows the second, he will be encouraged by sparks from the consciousness of the real 'I' which will accompany him all along the path.
The Fourth Way teaching divides people into three temperaments, in terms of where they are usually and naturally centered: 1. Psychomotor or instinctive; 2. Emotional; and 3. Intellectual.

Gnosis, vol. I Wrote:In principle, man 3 is endowed with a tendency not to believe. He is of a rather sceptical nature: he often and easily progresses to a critical analysis of the facts and problems that face him. [...] The negative method takes these characteristics into account. In observing the movements of the inner life, it undertakes a critical analysis of the most scrupulous and impartial type possible. It observes the comings and goings of the little 'I' s or groups of little 'I' s and, recognizing them as being Non-I's, makes an effort not to be identified with them. Little by little, he thus discards that which does not indicate a real and permanent tendency in the currents of his mental life.

When such constatations are repeated in a controlled way, over and over again, the observer will perceive that certain elements are permanent, and consequently cannot be subjected to the principle of exclusion with true objectivity: he will then find himself not far from the threshold of the real 'I'.
Without the need for faith, nor for idealism, such a striving can allow a person to exclude all the false and transient within the self in order to finally succeed in igniting a pure contact with what is real, or "higher". Mouravieff warns that "total impartiality" is needed, with the risk of falling deeper into illusion if the impartiality is lacking. There is also the need to have internalized a pure spiritual "magnetic center", through positive spiritual influences, beforehand, as when the internal transformation completes, all conventional morality is destroyed and the result is either a person with the soul firmly in charge, or a sociopath.

Gnosis, vol. I Wrote:The second method is positive. It can only apply to man 2, the centre of gravity of whose mental life is found in the heart. This man may have an ideal and try to reach it. For this he will attempt to reassemble those elements of his Personality where the seeds of his ideal are scattered. This method is the reverse of the preceding since it tends not to the exclusion of unstable elements but to a synthesis, an affirmation. If such a man is called hot, it is because he has given free rein to his positive emotions: exactly the opposite of the cold method of critical analysis and exclusion. This is not without danger, but the danger is of a different nature. It comes from an initial error in the choice of an ideal, or rather from the attitude when the choice is made. [...] It is a question of lack of sincerity towards oneself. The profound divergence between admitted and unadmitted aims can cause an interior rupture which, when strongly emphasized, can go so far that it provokes division in the Personality.
It is irrelevant how outside authorities judge the ideal.

The negative/excluding method requires a striving towards perfect impartiality. The positive/integrating method requires a striving towards perfect sincerity.

Mouravieff notes that in practice, while people gravitate toward one or the other of the mentalities and methods, and its required ability/virtue, natures are not usually that clear-cut and what works best is usually a mixture of the approaches in whatever proportion individually works the best.
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03-23-2020, 02:41 AM,
#9
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
 
Here's another way to view the additive/subtractive dichotomy.

If you have mud or snow caked on your car's wheels, you can travel local roads alright, but when you go up on the highway, the fact that the wheels are imbalanced will make it feel that your car is going to vibrate into pieces at higher speeds.

A wheel can be brought into balance in two ways, one is to take weight off of the heavy areas and the other is to add a counter weight on the opposite side of the wheel.  Likewise, if one's energy centers are imbalanced because of selfish distortions, doing service to others can add counterweights such as gratitude or love, whereas doing deep personal clearing can remove the selfishness, layer by layer.

The process of spiritual developement can be viewed as the process of balancing the lower centers which allows your entire mechanism to operate (vibrate) at a higher rate which has the effect of automatically opening up experiences of gratitude, love, surrender and all that jazz as the heart center becomes more operational and engaged.
 
 
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03-29-2020, 09:50 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-29-2020, 09:51 AM by Nau7ik.)
#10
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
The Judaeo-Christian religions do have meditative traditions. With Judaism, the Hasidim and Essenes, especially the mystical tradition of the Qabalists.

Christianity, hm... well the Gnostics were a mystic sect of Christianity in its early years. They meditated, but they died off (killed off) and you’re actually right, there is little teaching on meditation in exoteric Christianity.

However, the West does have esoteric, mystical schools, the Western Mystery Tradition. There are many Orders, some positive, some negative, some mixed. The Western Mystery Tradition has at its base the mystical wisdom of Israel, the Holy Qabalah. Meditation was one of the means of working in esoteric Judaism.

There is the Tarot Key, 17. The Star. The Hebrew letter Tzaddi is attributed to this card and the letter signifies a “fish-hook.” The function attributed is meditation. Meditation, as we learn from this card, is a “fishing” for truth in the depths of subconciousness. It’s a period of searching, questing, experimenting, following the destruction of false mental structures / narratives in the Tower card (Key 16).
17=1+7= 8, the number of the Strength card. (This is the Subconsciousness aspect.) both figures in both keys are females signifying the subconcious aspect of mind.

Therefore do we also learn that the control of serpent-force (Teth, the serpent, Kundalini, therefore related to the lower chakras) is a subconscious activity. Meditation is the means by which we accomplish this control and balance of the fiery serpent, which rests predominantly in the lower chakras in humanity.

The mystical traditions of the West teach these kind of things. As does the East, but it in’s own unique way. The sincere seeker, wherever he be on this planet, has a pathway to God if he so desires it.

I kind of feel that the exoteric religions of the world keep people in thrall to their animal nature (Key 15, the Devil). Meditation helps with that, hence why it’s not taught to the masses. Imagine if everyone meditated! This planet would be a radically different place.
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03-30-2020, 02:28 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-30-2020, 02:29 AM by flow.)
#11
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
thank you all for sharing your perspectives. i guess my curiosity can not be possibly clarified unless Q'uo will speak on the matter, because the information is just not available.
clearly Christ was an adept. Confederation mentioned many times that he learned different disciplines of meditation and pranayama to achieve union with One Creator. since Jesus visited India, i guess it is highly likely that he learned at least some ways of meditation from spiritual traditions there, including these of buddhism.

i just feel very confused as to why none of the methods used by Jesus to achieve union with Creator are used by modern day Christianity, which resolved almost solely to prayers and rituals.
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03-30-2020, 08:32 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-30-2020, 08:33 AM by Nau7ik.)
#12
RE: Confederation, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Meditation
Jesus was also naturally gifted. He became a rabbi at age 12. Jesus lived with those of his religion who practiced spiritual disciplines, namely the Essences. He wandered far and wide and learned from sages and adepts of all traditions. Buddhism might have been one of them, but those same teachings on meditation are found within Jesus’s culture.
(Some even say that Abraham brought meditation over to the East. Yes, this sounds a little ridiculous to me too, but there is some evidence in the Bible to support this claim.)

Again, in the early days of Christianity, it had a devout mystical sect. The Gnostics. The Gnostics were murdered and wiped out by the Catholic Church some time prior to the canonization of the Bible. They chose, with Emperor Constantine threatening any Bishop who did not obey his commands with excommunication, what would be included and what would not. We can assume the more mystical and esoteric teachings were thrown out.
They didn’t complete wipe out the Gnostics though. They were wise enough to foresee the probability of ignorance destroying the Ageless Wisdom, and they preserved some of their texts. These were discovered at the end of WW2, the Naghamadi Texts. The Dead Sea Scrolls were found around this time as well.

There has been a real hidden effort in this world to keep humanity spiritually ignorant. We saw the same in ancient Egypt and Atlantis. The priestcraft was replaced with black magicians who then perverted the Law of One.

Jesus came and dispelled ignorance with true spiritual teachings. Jesus was aware of the reality of reincarnation, but later on self-serving bishops of the Catholic Church decided they knew better than the Christ. That’s just one example. And imo, the knowledge of reincarnation changes your entire world view.
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