Karma + desire

[sillypumpkins]

How do you think about the concepts of karma and desire when you put them together?

The ideas of suffering, karma, and desire (or ‘wanting’) have been on my mind lately. For some reason the phrase “to want is to suffer” has been floating around up there too. I don’t even remember hearing that phrase anywhere. Anyways.....


Is it that desire accrues karma? 

So, if you want something (or nothing), you will inevitably be disappointed, and therefore suffer? Simply because change is inevitable? 

Additionally, can one accrue karma without suffering? I’m thinking an individual who is wearing “chains of gold”, one who has accrued a lot of positive karma particularly.  

Thanks all hope is well with you folks ❤️

[Sacred Fool]

Sacred Fool mentioned something on another post that maybe my purpose is to love unconditionally. I think he may be correct.

Some would say it is unwise to take advice from a fool.  But....anyways.......


Desire and karma are surely related in the sense that you accrue karma by following your desire.  Case in point: spiritual progress follows the desire to seek or to serve.  Or, as Ra put it, the upwards spiraling energy...blah, blah.  The way I put it is simpler.  The point is, acting on sweeter emotions (such as the desire to serve) leads to more elegant karma than, say, acting on the desire to hide from the world forever inside a pillow fort (if you're an adult).

[flofrog]

To answer your question, silly, I have a view that everything has a reason to be. So I am not sure desire accrues karma but I think it may depend on the form of desire.

So if one has a desire to be of service to others, and if service is rendered without treading on free will of others, I don’t see how desire, in this way, would create karma.

If one has an apparent desire towards service to self in the way of taking care of the self, finding peace, etc… again the desire here would participate to balance of both self healing and enhancing service to others as consequence, so I don’t see this desire as susceptible to create karma. That sort of d’aires in fact would enhance positive polarization.

Quincunx, it might be that there are phases in our life where we accent the unconditional love. I see in what is happening to my son a reflection of what you are stating on women who seem after having met you to later on find happiness in their lives. This very much mirrors my son’s experience, but I do feel, that for my son, this is a phase and that he is right now quite possibly entering a different phase.

Interesting how we experience different things for a while and then the landscape seems to change.

[Diana]

To a sweet your question, silly, I have a view that everything has a reason to be. So I am not sure desire accrues karma but I think it may depend on the form of desire.

This is close to what I think. Karma and desire are two different things in my opinion, yet can intersect. 

But first let me say that whatever comes to you, Sillypumpkins, is meant for you. Whatever we may say here is not as important as what you feel in this regard, in my view.

Some meandering thoughts...

Intention is part of the equation. By intention I do not mean necessarily what one consciously states; rather I mean what flows from one's authentic self. A simple example is the desire for sexual intimacy: a STS individual will pursue this for certain reasons, a STO individual will pursue it for certain reasons, and those in the sinkhole of indifference will be acting more from hard-wired instincts or tribe or cultural constructs. 

Desire in my opinion is a kind of magnetism, a conscious magnet for catalyst. As Sacred Fool pointed out, one can desire spiritual growth resulting in more efficient polarization. In this way it is a conscious tool for forward motion and participating in one's own process with intent.

Karma, to me—and Ra alludes to this—is attachment. So the nexus point where karma and desire intersect would be attachment. According to Ra, wanderers are advised not to get "caught up in the maelstrom" and not get caught up in karma. That to me means not to become attached to the dramas here, to maintain acceptance. Acceptance is antithetical to attachment, which carries the signature of control and expectation.

Following up on the idea that magnetism flows from the authentic self and not so much from what is consciously stated, we may think we want something on the surface, but there may be all sorts of reasons that don't align with who we are authentically. One may desire wealth for example. This may spring from the culture one lives in, such as the Hollywoodized U.S. culture. The media, movies, and much input pound in the idea of having lots of money. All sorts of judgments derive from this paradigm, such as, money is evil, money is power, etc. But the underlying desire for money is really a desire for choices, which may lead one to the idea of choice, which may ultimately lead one to the LOO idea of this reality's most important choice. So, it isn't really money one desires, but unlimited choices, or the conscious awareness of the choice between STO and STS—and the mind reveals this to itself in messages to get there, and the judgments block awareness like walls put up on a road to somewhere. Letting go of judgments may clear the path which leads to deeper understandings, but along the way, certain signposts lead us forward and those signposts (such as recognizing that money = choices) could be best seen as steps forward and not to be belittled, judged, or regretted. It is the judging, the regretting, the belittling self—which can all be a natural part of the process of dealing with catalyst in that it brings to the surface something to consider and hopefully process—that keeps one in that karmic loop, until such time those obstacles are transcended. So in this example, desire is a signpost shrouded in some mystery, but it is one that informs.

[Sacred Fool]

Karma, to me—and Ra alludes to this—is attachment.

This applies in some ways, but I'm not sure that this definition is comprehensive.  If you were to offer love to someone, and much love were offered back to you, is that love offered back not a form of karma (cause and effect)?  Would you call that attachment?  A strong desire to open to accept love--to offer another example--can lead to interesting consequences as well, can it not?  Would that be attachment?  I think not.  I think it's a pathway of growth defined by desire and universal response.  Another way of putting it is that desire can be the means of choosing catalyst, and this can be either sticky (with karmic loops) or beatific or something else.  Does that sound right?

[MonadicSpectrum]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, SillyPumpkins. I think there are already some great ideas in this thread.

I view karma as a momentum of manifestation and desire as the acceleration of manifestation. For example, let us say someone has built up a lot of karma around eating junk food. This karma makes it difficult to change the pattern of eating because it has acquired much momentum over the years like a train moving quickly in one direction. Simultaneously, someone might temporarily have a desire to eat healthier such as for a New Year Resolution. This will start to slow down the karma towards junk food. However, it will not be a fast change with as all the momentum must be first undone before one can move towards healthy eating. This person might give up the desire for healthy food due to slow progress and begin to desire junk food again rebuilding back the momentum that was undone and re-establishing the karmic momentum.

The desire may toggle between healthy food and junk food. If the opposite desires are of equal magnitude, then the karmic momentum will remain constant. If the desire for healthy food is held higher, then the momentum will change in that direction over time. If the desire for junk food is held higher, then the momentum will change in that direction over time. One can use will and faith to modify the desires based on the higher order goals one is seeking. I view desires as emotional drives while higher order goals are intellectual drives. That said, it is important to balance the emotional desires and intellectual goals with neither dominating the other.

Regarding the lack of desire, the only concern I would have with this is that one can fall into the sinkhole of indifference without desire as well as not going through the steps required to balance desire and instead suppressing desire. If one does not balance desire, it's likely to eventually overtake the self beyond the self's will and control similarly to how if you lose balance while walking, you will fall whether you want to or not.

Here is some advice from Ra regarding desire. I find the tool of the imagination especially helpful for exploring, accepting, understanding, and balancing those desires which are difficult to experience in physicality. A balanced set of desires will lead to balanced karma.

The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

https://www.lawofone.info/s/18#5

[pat19989]

How do you think about the concepts of karma and desire when you put them together?

The ideas of suffering, karma, and desire (or ‘wanting’) have been on my mind lately. For some reason the phrase “to want is to suffer” has been floating around up there too. I don’t even remember hearing that phrase anywhere. Anyways.....


Is it that desire accrues karma? 

So, if you want something (or nothing), you will inevitably be disappointed, and therefore suffer? Simply because change is inevitable? 

Additionally, can one accrue karma without suffering? I’m thinking an individual who is wearing “chains of gold”, one who has accrued a lot of positive karma particularly.  

Thanks all hope is well with you folks ❤️

Wow, a lot of great input to a very interesting concept. Buddhism is ultimately what started me on my spiritual journey so I'll chip in, although I will likely just restate what others have already expressed.

I believe the statement "desire accrues karma" is pretty accurate. Desire keeps us in the loop of 'samsara,' the loop of incarnation, desire, and suffering that is the ego's entire existence.

Meditation, acceptance, and presence of mind are the gates of escape from this loop. I believe the concept of "positive" vs. "negative" karma to be a westernized abstraction. I view karma as more of an energy field, like a tub of water. Associating with the ego and its desires is like splashing up and down in the tub creating waves that take time to settle out. When we meditate or are in a general state of self-acceptance we raise ourselves out of the tub and do not create any waves therefore allowing the water to settle until we dip back into modes of desire and ego-association.

As to if one can accrue karma without suffering, I think it depends on your definition of suffering. If that person with 'chains of gold' is obsessing over the good fortune or neglecting others due to the newfound wealth, even if it may feel "good" to him, I do believe karma is being accrued because the association with possessions and earthly "wealth" is being valued above love for one's spirit and all creation. I would extend my definition of suffering in this case to any feeling, "good" or "bad," that is not rooted in truth/acceptance/faith whatever you'd like to call that ground that is our most real existence.

[Diana]

Karma, to me—and Ra alludes to this—is attachment.

This applies in some ways, but I'm not sure that this definition is comprehensive.  If you were to offer love to someone, and much love were offered back to you, is that love offered back not a form of karma (cause and effect)?  Would you call that attachment?  A strong desire to open to accept love--to offer another example--can lead to interesting consequences as well, can it not?  Would that be attachment?  I think not.  I think it's a pathway of growth defined by desire and universal response.  Another way of putting it is that desire can be the means of choosing catalyst, and this can be either sticky (with karmic loops) or beatific or something else.  Does that sound right?

Attachment is simply expecting a certain outcome. Drop the expectation, and you have no attachment. This is of course related to the wave state vs. the particle state, but I won't bore everyone with that again.

Offering love to someone (or more to the point, in general as a radiating signature) is the service so to speak; if love were offered back it is not the point. If one operates this way—cause and effect; service offered, reward received; love someone, they love you back—then yes I think that is the karmic loop. If the service is offered freely with no expectation of return then there is no karmic involvement or stickiness. 

In the cause and effect idea, and the idea of catalyst producing a beatific or karmic loop effect, that would depend on how, or if, one processes it. If it results in no attachment (forgiveness for example for self and other), then the catalyst has been used efficaciously. 

In the LOO community much conversation happens around the idea of harvest, and likewise in religious communities the idea of reward in the afterlife of some kind, for acting in certain ways. This is cause and effect. But what if one bypasses the idea of cause and effect, not expecting anything? 

This is not to suggest there aren't beatific moments in life. This is only to say not to expect them. If I give money to a homeless person, I do not expect gratitude or love or anything from that person. I give because I can, because the person is in need, and that is all. I do not revel afterwards in, or expect, a "good feeling" of being generous. I need no reward nor do I judge what the person is going to do with the money. I don't mean to sound as though I am some saint in this regard, I am far from that. It's just that catalyst and life have taught me the concepts of detachment from outcome, and how that relates to expansion of consciousness.

[Sacred Fool]

Offering love to someone (or more to the point, in general as a radiating signature) is the service so to speak; if love were offered back it is not the point. If one operates this way—cause and effect; service offered, reward received; love someone, they love you back—then yes I think that is the karmic loop. If the service is offered freely with no expectation of return then there is no karmic involvement or stickiness. 

In the cause and effect idea, and the idea of catalyst producing a beatific or karmic loop effect, that would depend on how, or if, one processes it. If it results in no attachment (forgiveness for example for self and other), then the catalyst has been used efficaciously.

I'm not opposing what you say, Diana, but I feel moved to step back and add some extra dimensional perspective to it.

As one moves along the path you describe, and as one's consciousness becomes more refined, traveling along that upwelling spiral towards divine union, periodically one is offered opportunities to balance that trajectory with ways of exploring a more self serving way of being.  As one's magical power increases and one's capabilities expand, one may choose to explore ways of using that power to benefit self in ways which are not healthy for all.  This, in my view, is exactly why the road to hell is paved with fallen gurus.  After all, one has worked so hard to get that far, why not enjoy the fruits of one's labour?  It is, oh, so easy for one not in that position to think that they would never succumb to such folly, but others would see this as pure naivete.  Facing one's character weaknesses with much power at one's disposal may not be as easy as it may sounds.

The OP was about a relationship between karma and suffering.  I'm suggesting here that a certain kind of karma is whistled for, even as one acts consistently in a "no expectations" manner in daily life.  The conditions of the ice we skate upon may not be as simple as they seem when viewed from the surface.  The more etiolated challenges are not given to formulaic responses.  Karma, in its cause-and-effect guise, is never all that far away, methinks.

[Spaced]

Ra talks about Karma as a form of inertia that propels one along a trajectory based on past actions and refined through balancing. Ra also talks about forgiveness/acceptance as being a higher principle which effectively puts the brakes on karma.

There is an example given of this in the Ra Material when Ra talks about Abraham Lincoln. When talking about the entity which took on the duty of completing Lincoln's "karmic patterns" they mention:

This entity did not gain or lose karma by these activities due to its detachment from any outcome. Its attitude throughout was one of service to others, more especially to the downtrodden or enslaved.

To me this is in line with the Karma Yoga taught by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. The basic outline of which is that, due to the nature of material reality, we are always driven to action (karma is Sanskrit for action). We can't just say "Everything is one. All is well." and then remain inactive for the rest of our lives, the world keeps turning, our bodies grow hungry, our minds wander. Inaction is a form of action. Like it or not, being alive means being active. To avoid becoming entangled in Karma, action must be undertaken without attachment to any outcome, you must work without seeking reward. From this perspective, work and actions become a duty or service to the creator and to the world. This is said to be the path to liberation.

As for desire, MonadicSpectrum pointed out that Ra tells us "The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away." Desires are not to be suppressed, but fully experienced and accepted.

So from my limited understanding, desire is related to karma in that as we act upon our desires we may develop attachments which can alter our trajectory and need to be balanced down the line. To act with detachment from the outcome is to keep an even keel and remain on course.