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    Bring4th Bring4th Community Olio Extreme negative bias in intro sociology

    Thread: Extreme negative bias in intro sociology


    jivatman (Offline)

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    #1
    01-13-2011, 12:47 AM
    I'm a senior taking an introductory sociology class though I'm an IT major, in order to fill some of my graduation requirements.

    We had a 30 page reading. I'm very well read on history and religion, so I noted a few actual historical errors, one very serious, but the bulk of this post is to note the extreme negative bias the author has about the development of human society in general, which he teaches in such a trite and nonchalant way as if it were actual fact.

    "In actual practice, cultural evolution works in as cruel and random as physical evolution. There are survivors and failures, and for individuals in those cultures that fail, the price may range from gentle absorption into other cultures to very severe suffering and widespread premature death"

    Cultural Darwinism?

    Thankfully I've read the Ra material and see biological evolution as having it's basis in consciousness, the difference between humans and animals being self-consciousness.


    "changing it from a Republic run by a tiny group of landowners to an empire run by whoever could control the army. This was one of the most momentous political changes in the ancient world, yet it did not change the fundamental structure of society, only the makeup of the elite"

    I do admire classical Rome to the extent that I admire classical Greece, it was larger and longer lasting, and yet it's technical, philosophical, and political innovations are all much less. Western civilization started with Greece, and without it would not exist. Rome was not, say, entirely Democratic, but Greek achievements survive us because of Rome.

    There would not be any semblance of Democracy in a major country until the Magna Carta and the slow rise in power of the English parliament hundreds of years later.

    "What has come down to us was primarily a culture of the elite. ... Yet at the same time they worked out a high culture of their own, these people had to keep their populations under control, and they were always looking for ways of legitimating their rule and the blatant inequality and unfairness of agrarian society.

    "Among the Tiv in central Nigeria, for example, anthropologists found a society on the verge of creating a state. Until then, this had been avoided because the Tiv could expand as they overcrowded, but by the time they were absorbed into colonial Nigera, the situation was coming to a close. Some individuals were accumulating greater wealth and power as leaders and the Tiv were convinced that such individuals possessed a magical, evil organ inside their bodies that gave them access to power. The Tiv were on the verge of what might have been an involuntary, resented, but
    nevertheless necessary
    change to a state society
    ."

    The author clearly delights in this strange example. The historical accuracy sounds dubious but I'm going to give it to him for now.

    "At the other end, the ordinary peasants, who formed well over 90 percent of the population of most agrarian societies, actually fell to positions lower than their ancestors who had been free of states"

    So, states are "necessary" even though well over 90% of the population is worse off?

    Is anyone else disturbed at the combination of various messages here?

    1. Cultural evolution is "cruel and random"
    2. That states are "necessary"
    3. That states create an inevitable elite, and most people are worse off

    Now let me say that I do not quite see states as much distinctly separate from the rest of society, but it is more important to see the STO or STS philosophy being promoted by various actions.

    Generally any time one appeals to base instincts, and says something is "neccessary", like torture, or "thou shalt not", that is STS.

      •
    turtledude23 (Offline)

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    #2
    01-13-2011, 02:04 AM
    Very few people take what they read in school seriously enough to remember it unless its already a topic they're interested in, I wouldn't worry about the pessimism, materialism, etc. in this book affecting anyones beliefs too much. Greater knowledge usually leads to arrogance if someone isn't trying to polarize to STO. In the same way hardcore skeptics delight in calling researchers in fields like ESP "quacks" so too do many scholars in the social sciences delight in being pessimistic and materialistic, assuming were all animals that here by fluke, etc. because it makes them feel like an intellectual elite and that anyone who disagrees with them is uneducated and/or a foolish idealist. And what makes someone feel more in control: trying to build a case for something being true, or shooting down things as false because they hold the "facts"?

    This person is just trying to reinforce their own beliefs. You could selectively analyze history to find the bad patterns and ignore the good ones, and since the dominant paradigm in the scientific and academic community is materialism then you won't face much opposition, in fact you'd probably get a promotion.

    Anyone who believes governments will always be necessary doesn't have much creativity, vision or hope. Just like all human institutions the academic and scientific community also are heavily concerned with maintaining the status quo and are run by rather closed minded people, so creativity isn't always necessary to be a respected scholar.
    [+] The following 1 member thanked thanked turtledude23 for this post:1 member thanked turtledude23 for this post
      • Aaron
    Phoenix (Offline)

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    #3
    01-13-2011, 05:11 AM (This post was last modified: 01-13-2011, 05:18 AM by Phoenix.)
    This isn't sociology. Sociology is things like marxism, neo marxism etc. Yes there is the occasional social darwinist in their such as Herbert Spencer. I'm currently studying Leotard who was pessimistic about society and made an impassioned case that sciences self legitimating framework is not valid and that real truth exists in works of art.

    Or Weber who believed that societies disattachment from ideas of magic and move toward logic creates an iron cage or logic that can create negativity. Or the endless range of neo marxism such as Adorno, Foucalt etc. Who usually criticise society helplessly raging against peoples apparent lack of motivation.

    Also, I don't draw the same conclusions as you about this text. For instance, I once did a piece of work on the Israeli Gaza war/ massacre. I couldn't be stating obvious moral truths every other sentence. And I've done work on financial globalisation, clearly and simply stating how the west deadlocks African countries into poverty, I may be using confessions of an economic hitman in my next essay. Although I don't take his point on physical evolution, because cultures don't take over each other in nature, herbivor cultures work well together and animals fight over territory but don't invade other in groups. Aside from killing for food which we do in far more inhumane ways than animals do.

    For STS philosophers, I'm thinking Thomas Hobbs and Herbert Spencer.

      •
    Lorna (Offline)

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    #4
    01-13-2011, 05:14 AM
    (01-13-2011, 02:04 AM)turtledude23 Wrote: Just like all human institutions the academic and scientific community also are heavily concerned with maintaining the status quo and are run by rather closed minded people, so creativity isn't always necessary to be a respected scholar.

    i 100% agree with what turtledude just said but also wanted to add what a wonderful thing it is to be able to look at information in the way that you just have - keep noticing these things but bless the author with love, it is clear he does not have the wonderful overarching perspective that you do

      •
    unity100 (Offline)

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    #5
    01-13-2011, 09:17 AM
    our contemporary science for social matters is negatively biased, because our contemporary (modern) culture is itself negatively biased and organized. and not coincidentally, it comes from the very same roots of negative elitism that can be traced from ancient civilizations to rome, and from that point on to (slowly moving) british isles, and then to the new world. and then back.

    the societies which did not sport elitism are not able to thrive and advance freely in an environment in which negatively organized societal groups can overpower and subdue them. this is exacerbated by technology and weapons - a small group having technical superiority aimed for vile objectives are able to undo groups of larger sizes.

    actually the entire development of (now modern) western society, is a story of that - small groups continually developing methods and technology to keep majority subdued and in check. with exceptions of forays into equality and freedom in various periods.

    when a culture is formed in this fashion, it naturally starts to justify, rationalize and praise itself and its character, putting them into some context.

    its just a bias. 80% of the society in usa may be worse off in regard to sharing the output and luxuries of the society, compared to middle age peasants. but, see, they are not living in thatched roof huts anymore - yes, they may be working more, getting less, have even less freedom, but, their roof is not thatched. (that is, if they can actually maintain a house).

    the technological development is shown to be something of an achievement, and the average standard of the population is shown as proof of this, compared to history. however, it is always skipped/neglected that, the natural and inevitable result of technological development in any given society, automatically results in such improvements. people were living in caves at one point, then as knowledge spread they started living in huts. they did not need to be enslaved in a system for that to happen. knowledge spreads automatically as long as there is a need for it.

    now it is even worse - the only thing the current enslavement system shows for its validity - the proliferation of technology and comfort - even if it is rather dud and fake as described in above paragraph, is itself being controlled and rationed through usage of the societal system through patents and copyrights. had there been patents back in stone age, those who held the patent for thatched roof huts would be controlling who gets to live in thatched roof huts, and how much would they pay for the privilege to do so.

    from all these, all i conclude is, once you let a negative oriented system free, it eventually enslaves and encompasses everything.
    [+] The following 2 members thanked thanked unity100 for this post:2 members thanked unity100 for this post
      • Aaron, turtledude23
    Shemaya (Offline)

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    #6
    01-13-2011, 04:45 PM
    (01-13-2011, 09:17 AM)unity100 Wrote: from all these, all i conclude is, once you let a negative oriented system free, it eventually enslaves and encompasses everything.

    I have read what you wrote and it makes sense, unity100.

    have you thought about how we can overcome this negative system? You have great insight into the system, how it started and what is keeping it going.

    So what do you think it will take to end it?

      •
    zenmaster (Offline)

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    #7
    01-13-2011, 06:24 PM
    Each successive valuing meme or subdensity within 3d offers more and more freedom. From the standpoint of a 'higher' level, looking back, one may see a 'lower' interpretative framework as unacceptably 'negative'. For example, all of the ancient empires were at the red vMeme, as much of the middle east is today. It could be considered 'negative' in that "Red controls through violence and intimidation." "It is the time of the adolescent."

    Even in the middle of this density, at "Blue", structure and authority were emphasized. And of course that can be considered 'negative' as well - i.e. the necessary emphasis on dogma.

    Later, during the enlightenment period, with the emergence of "Orange" we finally have the concept of egalitarianism and meritocracy, but also the 'negative' as "The world is seen as a resource to be exploited for profit."

    Each subdensity brings with it both potentially healthy and pathological aspects of expression, as we learn the lessons of the logos.

    In order to go to the next higher subdensity, one must first become unsatisfied with what the current one offers. Today, most people are still in blue/orange (middle). Wanderers and natives tend to reach 'green' quickly, but then they tend to remain there and fail to see the value in the lower levels.

      •
    unity100 (Offline)

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    #8
    01-13-2011, 07:16 PM
    (01-13-2011, 06:24 PM)zenmaster Wrote: ........

    i dont think your analysis on this subject is correct. your approach, basically assumes that yellow ray development, ie 3rd density, is a negative one. it seems to basically take the development in this planet, as the natural development in yellow ray density.

    and actually, we are not in a higher state of freedom than the earlier empires. the control now is much more widespread, participation is much more voluntary (and mandatory), and belief in the system (at least in surface) is much more firm. and, all of the systems of society are totally shaped to support each other. it is a system that enslaves willingly. and the process is made known to entities as something that is just, right, and fruitful. back in ancient empires' days, this was not too different, but, at least there was the notion of elite/slavery in their pure understandable form.

    Quote:have you thought about how we can overcome this negative system? You have great insight into the system, how it started and what is keeping it going.

    So what do you think it will take to end it?

    for it to change, either a grand, planetary-scale incarnation and transition program needs to be arranged in time/space, astral planes of this planet, than entities incarnate and implement it.

    or, there needs to be a place, a different format society in which the entities can have reprise from this system and live in a positive one, so that the entities can migrate into that place and can make their choice. the current system however does not allow existence of such a system. it tries to prevent existence of such systems.

      •
    zenmaster (Offline)

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    #9
    01-13-2011, 08:45 PM
    (01-13-2011, 07:16 PM)unity100 Wrote:
    (01-13-2011, 06:24 PM)zenmaster Wrote: ........

    i dont think your analysis on this subject is correct. your approach, basically assumes that yellow ray development, ie 3rd density, is a negative one.

    A negative one? Not really. I was commenting on others assumptions at to what constitutes 'negative' development (in the historical/sociological context). Disharmony and power structures are not necessarily 'negative' if they are not truly suppressive. For example, adolescents require certain constraints 'for their own good' in order to mature properly.

    I would question anyone's discernment here when faced with an evaluation of 'negativity', or even 'love' since everyone's understanding on the subject is so incredibly limited. People still tend to evaluate at a level where superficial emotional impressions predominate. For example, if they've recently managed to open the heart center - it magically becomes the new 'standard' for judgment - and the associated feelings invoked almost inevitably will be emphasized until the energy finds a place from the perspective yet another higher, more consciously aware context. There is a necessary pattern and staging to evolution where one must face oneself in a new light, in the mirror provided by the logos and other sub-logoi. Battleground or playground, strife and struggle or fun and games.

    In some manner, the subdensities, like the chakras, must be known for what they offer. One can't balance at all if their expectations are clouded by hope or fear. But the initial response to new catalyst seems to be one or the other.

    (01-13-2011, 07:16 PM)unity100 Wrote: it seems to basically take the development in this planet, as the natural development in yellow ray density.

    Again, not really. Whenever there is the will of a logos involved, it begs the question of what is 'natural' vs 'unnatural'.

    (01-13-2011, 07:16 PM)unity100 Wrote: and actually, we are not in a higher state of freedom than the earlier empires. the control now is much more widespread, participation is much more voluntary (and mandatory), and belief in the system (at least in surface) is much more firm. and, all of the systems of society are totally shaped to support each other. it is a system that enslaves willingly. and the process is made known to entities as something that is just, right, and fruitful. back in ancient empires' days, this was not too different, but, at least there was the notion of elite/slavery in their pure understandable form.

    I'm not sure about that. Social structure, opportunities, and worldviews today are not comparable to those times. The individual and collective core valuing systems were immature. Meritocracy, for example, didn't even emerge anywhere in the world until late 1700's (200 years ago!). Did it not emerge before then because of 'negativity' or because people did not realize it as a possibility to give to themselves?

    Seriously...In the broader scope, is there anyone here capable of constructing a workable system of third-density evolution - a lesson-plan - through each of the subdensities, that is what they consider 'positive''? The answer is, of course, 'no'. Yet, incapable of offering a possible alternative, we armchair-judge, from the standpoint of what we better know now and more-ethically appreciate, prior and extant systems of belief that are plainly serving evolutionary ends.

    We still throw around service-orientation labels as they conveniently suit our projections.

      •
    unity100 (Offline)

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    #10
    01-13-2011, 09:14 PM
    (01-13-2011, 08:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: A negative one? Not really.

    a system that not only encourages but mandates that entities make others work, and get most of the produced value, is negative in nature. it gives control and ownership of the value produced and the means at the hands of whomever is designated higher in the power hierarchy.

    the ownership concept is an orange one. however the mechanic of making others work, and not giving them the amount they have generated, is a negative mechanic.

    Quote:Disharmony and power structures are not necessarily 'negative' if they are not truly suppressive. For example, adolescents require certain constraints 'for their own good' in order to mature properly.

    i think maybe you are meaning organization, rather than power structure.

    a power structure, is a control structure. and it is negative. it allocates power to entities based on their placement on the hierarchy.

    there is no analogy in between an adolescent youth needing guidance, and making 500 entities work, and get the whole of the profits/values generated from that collective work.

    Quote:I would question anyone's discernment here when faced with an evaluation of 'negativity', or even 'love' since everyone's understanding on the subject is so incredibly limited.

    In some manner, the subdensities, like the chakras, must be known for what they offer. One can't balance at all if their expectations are clouded by hope or fear. But the initial response to new catalyst seems to be one or the other.

    thats not something related to green ray or yellow ray. what you have described has basically been negative uses of yellow ray/orange ray control mechanisms.

    understandable, since there hadnt been any noticeable period or record in history in which positive manifestations of yellow ray were dominant.

    Quote:
    (01-13-2011, 07:16 PM)unity100 Wrote: it seems to basically take the development in this planet, as the natural development in yellow ray density.

    Again, not really. Whenever there is the will of a logos involved, it begs the question of what is 'natural' vs 'unnatural'.

    there is natural, and unnatural. since all existence manifests in the initial mechanics and means infinite intelligence has set, at the start of this creation. logoi are no exemption to this.

    we are told that, the logoi can modify and change weighting of various core concepts, but, ratios always remain the same. an example has been the length of 3 d. the shorter 3d is made, the longer the densities above has to take.

    and in retrospect, it was recently discovered that scientific constant for various scientific formula, are probably different in other locales in the galaxy. the formula is there, but constant, may vary. another pointer to the modifiability of the weighting, but, not the rule. actually the two examples may be even directly relevant to each other.

    therefore, there are similarly natural ways in which red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, purple and white manifests themselves, as set by infinite intelligence for expression of manifestation in this creation. each ray, expresses and emphasizes a certain meaning of existence. logoi can change the ratios, and polarities (and that even only for some time), but they cannot change or modify those meaning.

    Quote:I'm not sure about that. Social structure, opportunities, and worldviews today are not comparable to those times.

    social structure is a lower height pyramid than it was. circa 2008, 80% of society in united states has to do with only 15% of income / wealth, whereas top 1% gets 52% and top 5% (the other 1% included) gets 72%. in between 87-100, a middle class that only encompasses a 15% doesnt even get 25% in total.

    http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesameric...ealth.html

    then, everything is tied to financial wealth, which translates into power, because everything is tied to wealth.

    there is the supposed promise of getting rich. however, even that is tied to wealth. rags to riches is a rare phenomenon, and when/if it happens, it is drummed and touted up by the media to prove the promise of the system.

    even initial egalitarian, wild/west - free for all environments like internet eventually gets controlled by dominant hierarchy of wealth, and opportunities are taken under control.

    no need to talk about how this wealth affects justice, governance and so on.

    Quote:The individual and collective core valuing systems were immature. Meritocracy, for example, didn't even emerge anywhere in the world until late 1700's (200 years ago!). Did it not emerge before then because of 'negativity' or because people did not realize it as a possibility to give to themselves?

    there is no meritocracy. it is only in name, just like democracy is.

    Quote:Seriously...In the broader scope, is there anyone here capable of constructing a workable system of third-density evolution - a lesson-plan - through each of the subdensities, that is what they consider 'positive''? The answer is, of course, 'no'. Yet, incapable of offering a possible alternative, we armchair-judge, from the standpoint of what we better know now and more-ethically appreciate, prior and extant systems of belief that are plainly serving evolutionary ends.

    it doesnt require effort to construct a workable system of of 3rd density evolution. the mechanics and nature of positive yellow ray manifestation is carried in the ray itself, and it is possible to spot manifestations of this in isolated instances, and for short durations in society.

    any environment in which entities come together for a purpose, work together, and share the output of the work together, all under their free will and voluntary participation, is a positive manifestation.

    this can be seen in various efforts that people undertake in their neighborhoods, or charitable activities.

    Quote:We still throw around service-orientation labels as they conveniently suit our projections.

    i dont think it is quite difficult to understand that making 500 entities work, produce 5000 sacks of wheat, and get 4500 sacks off of them while giving them 500 sacks is a negative control scheme.

    resources equate to survival.

      •
    zenmaster (Offline)

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    #11
    01-13-2011, 10:52 PM
    I hope you are not somehow interpreting my explanation as somehow an endorsement or apology of the obvious shortcomings and seeming unfairness with system we have. It's meant to show that we do not understand where we've been, or what it took to get to where we are. And even though we are fist-banging upset with where we are, there are no simple solutions - despite what we may idealize in an ad hoc manner. Communism failed, socialism is failing. That money-less Star-Trek society sounds great, but it's hollow. Remember, the very nature of 3d is separation (from self) of some kind.

    Harmonious separation would be ideal, but all we can do is point fingers at some atrocity and say 'that bad' stop it. Remember there is not only a problem with wealth distribution, but also a problem with wealth creation. We can certainly each encourage opportunity growth by merely realizing that we are an integral part of a larger society.

    200 Years of Global Growth in 4 Minutes

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    turtledude23 (Offline)

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    #12
    01-13-2011, 10:58 PM
    Reading Ra's descriptions of Venus really put life on earth into perspective:

    Quote:88.14 Questioner: Was the concept given to or devised for a training tool for those inhabiting Venus at that time or was it devised by those of Venus as a training tool for those of Earth?

    Ra: I am Ra. The tarot was devised by the third-density population of Venus a great measure of your space/time in your past. As we have noted the third-density experience of those of Venus dealt far more deeply and harmoniously with what you would call relationships with other-selves, sexual energy transfer work, and philosophical or metaphysical research. The product of many, many generations of work upon what we conceived to be the archetypical mind produced the tarot which was used by our peoples as a training aid in developing the magical personality.

    Improving relationship with other people, working on achieving the highest possible ray of sexual energy transfer, and philosophical/metaphysical research. These are things I try I do on my own (well, can't do the second one on my own, or at all right now...) and am considered weird for. These are some of the most central concerns in my life, the kinds of issues were if I could find several friends who believe in similar things I'd feel overjoyed. So the idea of a whole planet full of people like me is overwhelming, and then for contrast there's Earth.

    Quote:60.16 Questioner: The pyramid shape then, as I understand it, was deemed by your social memory complex to be at that time of paramount importance as the physical training aid for spiritual development. At this particular time in the evolution of our planet it seems that you place little or no emphasis on this shape. Is this correct?

    Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. It is our honor/duty to attempt to remove the distortions that the use of this shape has caused in the thinking of your peoples and in the activities of some of your entities. We do not deny that such shapes are efficacious, nor do we withhold the general gist of this efficacy. However, we wish to offer our understanding, limited though it is, that contrary to our naive beliefs many thousands of your years ago the optimum shape for initiation does not exist.

    Let us expand upon this point. When we were aided by sixth-density entities during our own third-density experiences we, being less bellicose in the extreme, found this teaching to be of help. In our naiveté in third-density we had not developed the interrelationships of your barter or money system and power. We were, in fact, a more philosophical third-density planet than your own and our choices of polarity were much more centered about the, shall we say, understanding of sexual energy transfers and the appropriate relationships between self and other-self.

    We spent a much larger portion of our space/time working with the unmanifested being. In this less complex atmosphere it was quite instructive to have this learn/teaching device and we benefited without the distortions we found occurring among your peoples.

    ...

    On top of living in paradise they didn't have wars, governments, or money. Remarkable.

    One could argue that human life started in chaos and needed organization of any kind initially, even if it was brutal (Roman Empire, feudal Europe, Mongolian Empire, etc.), in order for people to work together, but even by this model the tolerance for brutality degrades over time into representative democracy until finally one day there wont be governments because people will voluntarily live in harmony. That's a view I had for a few months before I started re-reading the Law of One last year. Given how Ra described 3rd density Venus we didn't need any of the horrible history we've had on this planet, it's just disgusting.

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    zenmaster (Offline)

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    #13
    01-13-2011, 11:10 PM (This post was last modified: 01-13-2011, 11:11 PM by zenmaster.)
    (01-13-2011, 10:58 PM)turtledude23 Wrote: Given how Ra described 3rd density Venus we didn't need any of the horrible history we've had on this planet, it's just disgusting.
    An homogeneous population (i.e. lack of transplants - confused or otherwise), abundant resources, and temperate climate, for example, go a long way towards alleviating potential survival concerns and competition pressure. After survival concerns are addressed, there tends to be the leisure time to philosophize and harmonize.

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    unity100 (Offline)

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    #14
    01-14-2011, 06:55 AM (This post was last modified: 01-14-2011, 07:27 AM by unity100.)
    (01-13-2011, 10:52 PM)zenmaster Wrote: Communism failed, socialism is failing. That money-less Star-Trek society sounds great, but it's hollow. Remember, the very nature of 3d is separation (from self) of some kind.

    communism failed ? how so ?

    socialism failing ? how ?

    Quote:Remember there is not only a problem with wealth distribution, but also a problem with wealth creation. We can certainly each encourage opportunity growth by merely realizing that we are an integral part of a larger society.

    the problem with wealth distribution, is the problem that underlies the society. wealth is power, and its unequal distribution eventually nullifies the equal distribution of votes in democratic political side of the societal life. when you need money to get elected, the ones with the money or money backing get elected.

    Quote:
    200 Years of Global Growth in 4 Minutes

    that presentation was criticized for excessive optimism. not only that, but it also ignores the human aspect of society in that it accounts for growth of economies, however it doesnt analyze how the wealth is distributed and used for what ends at all. not to mention that, it takes a lot of the socialist countries in europe into its example, however even if unintentionally, ends up portraying their success as proof of the existing system.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=human+dev...=firefox-a

    this would be a more proper evaluation index.
    (01-13-2011, 11:10 PM)zenmaster Wrote:
    (01-13-2011, 10:58 PM)turtledude23 Wrote: Given how Ra described 3rd density Venus we didn't need any of the horrible history we've had on this planet, it's just disgusting.
    An homogeneous population (i.e. lack of transplants - confused or otherwise), abundant resources, and temperate climate, for example, go a long way towards alleviating potential survival concerns and competition pressure. After survival concerns are addressed, there tends to be the leisure time to philosophize and harmonize.

    remember that the 200 year wanderer wave had incarnated for that very purpose. for bringing technology and methods to give free time from survival to people. this had lead to the age of enlightenment and age of science. these are, now, however being given as proofs of the success of the current system, as if the system was what brought them about. but, we know better due to Ra material.

    moreover, similarly too, the alleged successes of the system in lifting the minimum point of comfort compared to middle ages is also attributed to the system. whereas, it actually didnt matter what kind of system a civilization had, as long as wanderers such as these incarnated to give technology and information proliferated. its not the first time either, it happened in atlantis here too.

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    turtledude23 (Offline)

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    #15
    01-14-2011, 12:48 PM
    (01-13-2011, 11:10 PM)zenmaster Wrote:
    (01-13-2011, 10:58 PM)turtledude23 Wrote: Given how Ra described 3rd density Venus we didn't need any of the horrible history we've had on this planet, it's just disgusting.
    An homogeneous population (i.e. lack of transplants - confused or otherwise), abundant resources, and temperate climate, for example, go a long way towards alleviating potential survival concerns and competition pressure. After survival concerns are addressed, there tends to be the leisure time to philosophize and harmonize.

    Not having "immigrants" from planets that destroyed themselves helps alot, but Venus had harsh living conditions according to Ra:

    Quote:89.28 Questioner: What was Ra’s average total population incarnate on Venus in third density?

    Ra: I am Ra. We were a small population which dwelt upon what you would consider difficult conditions. Our harvest was approximately 6 million 500 thousand mind/body/spirit complexes. There were approximately 32 million mind/body/spirit complexes repeating third density elsewhere.

    Furthermore abundance of resources doesn't necessarily lead to easy living for a society because those who place themselves in positions of power can take most of it for themselves. Conversely having limited resources doesn't necessarily lead to a difficult life, often in difficult situations like during a war or living in a 3rd world country is when people are most STO because their life is put more into perspective, where as living in luxury is more likely to lead to apathy and STS.

    (01-14-2011, 06:55 AM)unity100 Wrote:
    (01-13-2011, 10:52 PM)zenmaster Wrote: Communism failed, socialism is failing. That money-less Star-Trek society sounds great, but it's hollow. Remember, the very nature of 3d is separation (from self) of some kind.

    communism failed ? how so ?

    I don't know of a single communist implementation that didn't fail and I can list many communist countries that were more brutal than even the worst capitalist, fascist, monarch, etc. countries. Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, to list the worst ones.

    Quote:
    (01-13-2011, 11:10 PM)zenmaster Wrote:
    (01-13-2011, 10:58 PM)turtledude23 Wrote: Given how Ra described 3rd density Venus we didn't need any of the horrible history we've had on this planet, it's just disgusting.
    An homogeneous population (i.e. lack of transplants - confused or otherwise), abundant resources, and temperate climate, for example, go a long way towards alleviating potential survival concerns and competition pressure. After survival concerns are addressed, there tends to be the leisure time to philosophize and harmonize.

    remember that the 200 year wanderer wave had incarnated for that very purpose. for bringing technology and methods to give free time from survival to people. this had lead to the age of enlightenment and age of science. these are, now, however being given as proofs of the success of the current system, as if the system was what brought them about. but, we know better due to Ra material.

    moreover, similarly too, the alleged successes of the system in lifting the minimum point of comfort compared to middle ages is also attributed to the system. whereas, it actually didnt matter what kind of system a civilization had, as long as wanderers such as these incarnated to give technology and information proliferated. its not the first time either, it happened in atlantis here too.

    This is a great point.

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    unity100 (Offline)

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    #16
    01-14-2011, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: 01-14-2011, 03:20 PM by unity100.)
    (01-14-2011, 12:48 PM)turtledude23 Wrote: I don't know of a single communist implementation that didn't fail and I can list many communist countries that were more brutal than even the worst capitalist, fascist, monarch, etc. countries. Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, to list the worst ones.

    do you know a single communist revolution that was let to even be ?

    within months of the revolution in russia, a total of 18 countries landed in russia, leaded by the freedom-loving, liberty-leading country of great britain, attacking russians in order to suppress the revolution and reinstall the tzar and aristocracy. not remaining content with that, counter-revolutionaries were fed with resources and funds from these countries in order to attack their countrymen to help suppression.

    an environment in which 18 countries of the world send soldiers to suppress your attempt to get rid of aristocracy and tsar ... your own countrymen, doing the same. and the supposed 'freedom loving' civil rights pioneering countries of the world leading that travesty ... perfect way to cause schizophrenia in the target nation ...

    this environment immediately led to strengthening of radical factions within the revolutionaries. it had become a very desperate fight for survival. with increased radicalization, radicalization of objectives and ideals came. the environment led survival minded people into positions of power. led to establishment of brutal suppression and repression mechanisms to keep ranks.

    this, had had staying effect on the nature of the ensuing country. survival minded, schizophrenic individuals had selected and supported likewise minded individuals into power, and that continued for decades. so much that, even at 1960 (i remember) socialist international, ussr had declared that it was going to allocate all of its resources to surpassing united states in space, and in military.

    of course, this was probably also caused by the 'democratic' alliance of western nations totally siegeing them.

    as a result almost all of the production and effort of these countries were spent on space race and weaponry. they had amassed a massive arsenal, however, they had failed to raise the life standards of their people.

    and the repressive, schizophrenic mindset continued until its dissolution.

    in the case of china, it was a place that those democratic, liberty-loving, high standard countries of the west has been trying to exploit for around 200 years. in 1930s, they have been directly attacked for occupation by a country which adopted the western ideals, japan. what japanese did there, is too horrible to tell here. however, as you can see, the perfect environment for breeding schizophrenia was created again. and, not surprisingly, that experiment also resulted in repression.

    in the case of cuba, those people were first attacked, then totally embargoed as soon as they toppled the american-installed dictator. the only reason that the west was not able to land in full force there to occupy them like they attempted in 1917-18 in russia was that, there was the eastern bloc now, and they couldnt risk a world war. however, the embargo still continues today. yet, still, its health system is better than united states'. still, one could say another 'experiment' has failed.

    experiment word is in quotes, because, these are actually not experiments. these are cases in which an extended duration of excessive repression and exploitation leading to mass outburst and reaction. just like french revolution. you cant expect people to be loving and caring after exploiting them for centuries.

    in other countries, such backlash was avoided through certain mechanisms. most successful was british system, in which there was the false hope/promise of possibility of ascending in the power/societal pyramid. any serf could acquire more land through marriage or buying, and eventually become a peasant, and then move on to being a small noble, and then move up if they could. even if the percentage of those who could do it were negligible, still it had allowed creation of a middle class that could be used to control others lower in the rank.

    actually this mechanic is the mechanic that is still being employed today, at the core.

    .............

    still, communism may be too much for the extremely orange heavy consciousness of this planet. it is 100% that it will work perfectly for the coming 4d consciousness, however, with orange heavy yellow we have here yet, it is inevitable that it would turn into a control mechanics.

    the watered down version of this, is social democracy, or socialism. this has worked so well in countries in northern europe. and curiously, from what i see in the last decade and so on, the attitude and practices of the people towards each other in this social democracy mechanic there got better and better as harvest approached.

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