Turkey Day 2012!

[Monica]

We are at a nexus. The veil is thinning. Can you feel it?

As we all debate about how it's all gonna go down, we're still living our lives. What are we doing to prepare? Is it just another day? I'm buying Christmas presents and planning my spring garden. Unless we do indeed go poof, we'll get past the holidays and then find ourselves in a new year...repeating the same patterns as before.

What is the impact of our participation in those very same patterns? Do our choices make any difference in regards to the lightening of the planet's vibrations, as we move through the next 5 weeks? Does it even matter that it's 2012? Does it even matter whether we make the same choices we've been making all our lives, without questioning them?

Thanksgiving's Toll on Turkeys

Most disconcerting to learn that organic 'free range' turkeys often don't fare much better.

[Ruth]

My husband has to work. So I'm doing a turkey dinner tailgate for his crew. And although I usually don't like to put up Christmas decorations until after Thanksgiving day, I've already started decorating the house, and plan to put up the tree tomorrow.

[norral]

what im looking and hoping for is a change of conciousness. a desire for people of different viewpoints to be more willing to see the others point of view and to let go of so many of these differences that are actually meaningless. that would mean letting go of a need to win. that is a deep seated fundamental change in the way we operate as humans. the only thing i can truly change is myself. so i will continue to work in that direction . the book the four agreements contains some excellent guidelines for changing our conciousness imho and For what it's worth

norral

[Diana]

I am doing what I always do--evolving consciously every day, the best I know how. I don't celebrate Thanksgiving or Christmas other than to visit family who ask it of me, and donating to the less fortunate (people and animals) at Christmas (that is my present to my family members and friends).

At Thanksgiving, I do my best to forgive the ridiculous slaughter of millions of turkeys, and say nothing to the people I visit. No offense meant to anyone here who eats turkey. Yet, it is a mindless thing to do in my opinion, to participate in "turkey" day as if that is the point of "thanksgiving."

I don't follow the media. And the 2012 stuff has never seemed like anything to me but an indication of change. Regardless, I am what I am at this point. I work with what is, while envisioning and working toward a more light-based existence.

[Monica]

A British study found that turkeys showed a preference for different kinds of music and sounds, and a poultry scientist said, "If you throw an apple to a group of turkeys, they'll play with it together."(4,5) Some turkey farmers admit that the birds show "signs of personality."(6) Hunters are advised that wild turkeys are "wary" and will "test your wits as they are rarely tested in modern life."(7) The millions of turkeys who end up on American dinner plates are genetically manipulated animals who have brief, painful lives on factory farms that are far removed from the open spaces enjoyed by their wild cousins.

Factory Farms: Wall-to-Wall Misery
More than 248 million turkeys are raised for food every year in the U.S.; ...Before ending up as holiday centerpieces, these gentle birds spend five to six months on factory farms, where thousands of turkeys are packed into dark sheds with no more than 3.5 square feet of space per bird.(10) To keep the extremely crowded birds from scratching and pecking each other to death, workers cut off portions of the birds' toes and upper beaks with hot blades and desnood the males (the snood is the flap of skin that runs from the beak to the chest).(11) No painkillers are used during these procedures.

Genetic manipulation and antibiotics enable farmers to produce heavily muscled birds who can weigh 35 pounds in as little as five months, and "their internal organs are noticeably crammed together in the little bit of space remaining for the body cavity," according to The Washington Post.(12) ...are so large that they can barely walk, are unable to fly like their wild cousins, and cannot even engage in normal reproductive behavior, so all turkeys raised for food are conceived by artificial insemination.(15)

Millions of turkeys don't even make it past their first few weeks before succumbing to "starve-out," a stress-induced condition that causes young birds to simply stop eating.(16) Catching and transportation are particularly stressful procedures for birds, yet they are repeatedly moved during their short lives...(17)

At the slaughterhouse, turkeys are hung upside down by their weak and crippled legs before their heads are dragged through an electrified "stunning tank," which immobilizes them but does not kill them. Many birds dodge the tank but then are still conscious when their throats are cut. If the knife fails to properly cut the birds' throats, then they are dragged through the scalding-hot water of the defeathering tank while still alive and conscious.

In 2006, undercover PETA investigators worked at a Butterball plant in Arkansas and observed that live birds were slammed against transport trucks and walls, punched and kicked, hung by their broken legs, used as punching bags, and even sexually assaulted. One worker was seen crushing a live turkey's head under his shoe until the bird's skull exploded, and another slammed a bird against a handrail so hard that her spine was exposed. For more information about this investigation, please visit ButterballCruelty.com.
...
Turkey flesh is...loaded with more fat and cholesterol than many cuts of beef. A turkey's leg contains more than 700 milligrams of cholesterol and more than 1,600 calories—40 percent of which are derived from fat.(18)

USDA inspection reports reveal that an average of one out of eight turkeys served on Thanksgiving is infected with salmonella, a foodborne illness that sickens more than 1 million people each year and kills 500.(19) Campylobacter, a type of bacteria found in turkeys, causes the second most commonly reported food-related illness.(20)

What You Can Do
Spread some holiday joy to turkeys by sparing their lives. Look in supermarkets and health food stores or on the Internet for Tofurky, Tofu Turkey, Garden Protein's Veggie Turkey Breast, Field Roast, and other widely available turkey alternatives.

http://www.peta.org/issues/Animals-Used-...table.aspx

Getting back to the original point of this thread, how is participating in this cruelty helping to lighten the vibration on the planet, during this very important nexus?

[Ruth]

We are at a nexus. The veil is thinning. Can you feel it?

As we all debate about how it's all gonna go down, we're still living our lives. What are we doing to prepare? Is it just another day? I'm buying Christmas presents and planning my spring garden. Unless we do indeed go poof, we'll get past the holidays and then find ourselves in a new year...repeating the same patterns as before.

What is the impact of our participation in those very same patterns? Do our choices make any difference in regards to the lightening of the planet's vibrations, as we move through the next 5 weeks? Does it even matter that it's 2012? Does it even matter whether we make the same choices we've been making all our lives, without questioning them?

Thanksgiving's Toll on Turkeys

Most disconcerting to learn that organic 'free range' turkeys often don't fare much better.

Sorry if I misunderstood the intent of your thread. Perhaps you should have posted it in the health area if you wanted to discuss eating turkey.

[Monica]

Sorry if I misunderstood the intent of your thread.

No prob! Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

Perhaps you should have posted it in the health area if you wanted to discuss eating turkey.

No, the point of the thread isn't about health or about eating at all. It's about the spiritual implications of doing something that involves such cruelty, so close to 12-21-12. I'm just wondering what sort of impact, if any, that large numbers of people centered around a corpse, focused on it as the centerpiece of their celebration, might have during this transitional time, and whether it's something that might be beneficial to ponder.

Of course, animals are tortured, killed and eaten every day. But Thanksgiving and Christmas make it a bigger deal...so much so that the nickname for Thanksgiving is Turkey Day!

I just started thinking about that...a holiday named after a dead animal! and all that its death entailed.

[reeay]

I'm sending you lots of love

[Ruth]

I know that the suffering of animals causes you pain. I am sorry for that. You, too, Diana. I understand that you both feel that pain very deeply.

I'm with rie - sending you lots of love and light.

[Avocado]

It makes me cringe when I think about the pain of animals but birds specifically. I've always loved them and immediately think of fluffer-butts (pet cockatiel).

Regardless, I am what I am at this point. I work with what is, while envisioning and working toward a more light-based existence.

Words of wisdom right here. Indeed, all is well. I care not about harvest, what I care about is the well being of people, whether they be rolly polly, catcus, Ra or my individuated self. When I was up north my brother, a chum and I were communing with the shroom. My brother ended up talking to giggling elves. What was hilarious is what they told him when he applied bug spray. They said "ewe what's that smell?" ... my brother explained what bug spray is... they reply "bugs are people too".

[Bring4th_Austin]

It's a great question to ask about tradition itself. We seem to be very committed to this tradition as a culture in the US. The tradition started because this time of the year would offer a bountiful harvest, and the people were more dependent on a seasonal food system (though I'm not sure how the "turkey" tradition started). It was a great time to celebrate what the Creator had to offer because food was bountiful and it has a way of bringing people together.

Our food system has changed. Keeping up with the demand for food has become a massive undertaking and we have gone in some unsustainable and sometimes shocking directions to meet these demands. The demand this specific tradition creates for something like turkey highlights the issue very well.

At what point do we examine our traditions taking into consideration the well-being of our planet and the things that live upon it? And the same for our personal habits?

[BrownEye]

I hear that if the early native americans had given us a donkey as a gift rather than a turkey we would all be having a piece of @$$ for thanksgiving.

[Shin'Ar]

We are at a nexus. The veil is thinning. Can you feel it?

As we all debate about how it's all gonna go down, we're still living our lives. What are we doing to prepare? Is it just another day? I'm buying Christmas presents and planning my spring garden. Unless we do indeed go poof, we'll get past the holidays and then find ourselves in a new year...repeating the same patterns as before.

What is the impact of our participation in those very same patterns? Do our choices make any difference in regards to the lightening of the planet's vibrations, as we move through the next 5 weeks? Does it even matter that it's 2012? Does it even matter whether we make the same choices we've been making all our lives, without questioning them?

Thanksgiving's Toll on Turkeys

Most disconcerting to learn that organic 'free range' turkeys often don't fare much better.

Made me remember that WKRP In Cincinnati show where the boss bought all those live turkeys and launched them out of a helicopter thinking they would fly away.

---

I hear that if the early native americans had given us a donkey as a gift rather than a turkey we would all be having a piece of @$$ for thanksgiving.

That's been a tradition in my home for many years now.

---

No, the point of the thread isn't about health or about eating at all. It's about the spiritual implications of doing something that involves such cruelty, so close to 12-21-12. I'm just wondering what sort of impact, if any, that large numbers of people centered around a corpse, focused on it as the centerpiece of their celebration, might have during this transitional time, and whether it's something that might be beneficial to ponder.

It's an interesting question Monica.

But you do realize that the negative vibrations that may be caused by eating turkey on Thanksgiving is probably miniscule compared to the millions of other negative issues which are all taking place daily all over the world, and many far more horrendous than the eating of turkey.

If we're going to concern ourselves with negative vibrations, and that is a worthwhile cause to be sure, why are we talking turkey?

I am absolutely certain that the people living in Israel and Gaza would probably be wondering why the heck we are attempting to heal the world's distortion by saving turkeys while their loved ones are being murdered and their cities blown to pieces.

[Monica]

But you do realize that the negative vibrations that may be caused by eating turkey on Thanksgiving is probably miniscule compared to the millions of other negative issues which are all taking place daily all over the world, and many far more horrendous than the eating of turkey.

Firstly, I emphatically disagree that it's miniscule. It's actually the opposite! There are literally millions - millions! - of late 2D entities being abused and tortured every single day. 72 million, to be exact, in the US alone. Now we're in the many billions of animals suffering, worldwide, every single day.

This site puts it all into perspective. It covers only cows, pigs and chickens, totaling 58 billion per year. That's not counting the turkeys.

58 BILLION. That's 58,000,000,000 (if my math is correct).

http://www.wfad.org/treatment.htm

While some enjoy a good life on a traditional farm, with rapidly growing corporate farming methods, the vast majority of those live their short lives in deplorable, miserable conditions, to the point that they live their lives in a state of constant torture.

No, that is most definitely not miniscule!

The only argument in favor of it being miniscule is if one believes animals have no worth...that only humans have worth.

Secondly, it's not about the eating. It's about knowingly supporting the suffering of the turkeys and other animals.

That's been covered extensively in the meat threads. My point with this thread was specifically about focusing on a carcass, while celebrating, with full awareness of how that animal was tortured, 1 month before 12-21-12. Doesn't anyone else see this as contradictory? I mean, even those who think eating animals is 'ok' doesn't this trigger even a teeeeeeny tiny twinge of...something? I mean, how does supporting such suffering in any way fit into the mindset of approaching a sacred, holy time consciously and with our best efforts to prepare for whatever may transpire?

We might not see anything happen on that day...or we might. But at the very least, is it not a special day? Is not the turning of the 75,000-year season something to approach consciously, and as peacefully, lovingly as possible? How does blithely biting into the carcass of an entity who was tortured even remotely approach any sort of attitude of spiritual sacredness in observance of this rather special event?

If we're going to concern ourselves with negative vibrations, and that is a worthwhile cause to be sure, why are we talking turkey?

I am absolutely certain that the people living in Israel and Gaza would probably be wondering why the heck we are attempting to heal the world's distortion by saving turkeys while their loved ones are being murdered and their cities blown to pieces.

Anyone who knows me on facebook knows that I post a lot about the Israel/Gaza conflict, Obama's drones, and other senseless acts of human violence. Thank you for not assuming that animal activists aren't also involved in many other causes as well.

[BrownEye]

If we're going to concern ourselves with negative vibrations, and that is a worthwhile cause to be sure, why are we talking turkey?

A turkey is just a life taken for pleasure.

Of course, it would be easier ignored if they were given to the needful in Gaza.

But then in Isreal and Gaza brutality is part of their culture. Any way i look at it, conditions there will not change until the culture decides to change.

[Monica]

A turkey is just a life taken for pleasure.

Exactly.

Ra stated "animal products to the extent necessary for individual metabolism." Much of the argument in the meat threads had to do whether the human body needs meat. This thread is about a different topic: How does celebrating a holiday with overindulgence of a dead animal fit that description? And, is there any special significance to this action, given that it's November 2012?

Of course, it would be easier ignored if they were given to the needful in Gaza.

Most definitely true!

But then in Isreal and Gaza brutality is part of their culture. Any way i look at it, conditions there will not change until the culture decides to change.

Yes and no. Yes, ultimately they have to change. But, we are all One. Our attitudes towards their violence does affect them. We all affect one another, to some extent. What I find reprehensible is the common attitude here in the US that the Palestinians "deserve it" because "they messed with Israel" when what they're really saying is that Israel is "God's chosen" so they can do whatever they want, since, after all, "God" told them to invade their neighbors, steal their land, and slaughter all the people, leaving no survivors, not even children. It's built into not just their culture, but in ours as well!

It is our culture I have issues with...the Christian community who blindly sides with Israel, with absolutely zero compassion for the Palestinians, because Israel is "God's chosen" and Israel can invade Palestine because they are "descendants of Ishmael" (read: going to hell anyway) and Palestine is "evil" for daring to defend themselves. My fundamentalist Christian sister actually said, and I quote: "That's what they get for messing with Israel. If they had read their Bible they'd know God favors Israel."

She also said, and I quote: "They are evil." See? A whole nation of people summarily dismissed as "evil." The children? Evil. After all, that's why "God" wanted the Israelites to wipe them out - they were the "spawn of evil"!! No attempt to see the other point of view. No attempt to be fair. No compassion for all those children cowering in fear their entire lives. "They're evil because they didn't believe the bible." Like they're supposed to just say "Go ahead and rape us...we understand you are superior."

Can you believe people still think this way?

It's one of the worst examples of the old testament being used to justify hatred, bigotry and violence.

[reeay]

My favorite Thanksgiving movie: 'Home for the Holidays' lol.

[hogey11]

I think the problem is that people are not showcasing these 'turkey personalities' enough.

If my friend had a pet turkey with an attitude, i'd probably think twice about eating one, just like I would think twice about chowing down Rover.

All animals are easy to eat if you've never spent time with them. That's why I avoid being around the animals I eat like the plague (I'm trying to eat less meat, i promise haha)

[Shin'Ar]

Doesn't anyone else see this as contradictory? I mean, even those who think eating animals is 'ok' doesn't this trigger even a teeeeeeny tiny twinge of...something?

Of course we do Monica but as I have discussed with you in great depth, it seems that you are focused on one aspect of a far greater 'system' responsible for the merciless and incompassionate attitudes which you strive to change.

And though I applaud your eforts and do not in any way deem them unwprthy, I also observe that this 'system' and its 'ways' are better rebelled against by applying some more involved thinking on the matter.

For example, if you are wearing a diamond ring, and driving an automobile, living in a heated home, with refrigerated food, then YOU are a reason that this 'system' which you rebel against with regards to eating meat, is able to function to the degree where so many animals are tortured.

And unless one takes this into consideration, one cannot on one hand rebel and on the other hand participate.

Its not that I am suggesting any degree of hypocrisy Monica, but as in my views on your meat thread, I think it is essential to consider the indepth and complex aspects of ALL issues so that we can develop understanding which also considers the rights of the Other when we try to assert our own.

Its not just a matter of defining and designating compassion anmd drawing lines.

It is a matter of recognizing and understanding The All and how complex the social dynamics of humanity relate to many of these issues.

To say we should fight for the humane rights of turkeys everywhere, while at the same time participating in a system which is also directly responsible for abusing the humane rights of humans, is simply not understanding the true dynamics of why such things occur in the first place.

Whether or not you open a facebook page on human rights to give credence and balance to a fight for animal rights does not address the real issues of why such things happen.

Let's discuss the complexities and maybe in gatheri8ng higher understandings, we can then move on to real solutions rather than just defining more opinions which really only results in the need to discern who has the most legitimate opinion or who has the loudest voice.

Recently in my home town our Mardi Gras has been completely cancelled because of the way that the gay rights activists have used it as a platform for launching their opinions that they have a right to express themselves freely. this resulted in too much vulgar and lewd exposing in public environments.

I have many gay friends who will quickly tell you that this is an extreme element of that community which they do not support or agree with. But do they or do they not have the right to expose themselves in vulgar fashion in public or not?

And if one speaks out against it, they are condemned for being homophobic, which in today's western social thinking is worse than vulgarity.

A grown man riding a bicycle naked through the city streets, and wearing a large dildo around your waste with a leather sadomasochist outfit on a parade float, while hundreds of little girls are there to see Santa Claus, is the result of the same 'system' which I am trying to get you to acknowledge in your efforts to address the mass murder of turkeys and cows.

And the fact that such a system runs amok untethered for the sake of equality in the guise of humane inter-relations is the real problem which needs to addressed, and participating in that system by adorning its luxuries is simply a matter of protesting prostitution while one is in reality actually prostituting themselves.

We must all acknowledge that we are deeply ingrained into this 'system' in many ways, and pointing a finger at one aspect of it while we continue to participate is simply waving a finger out the car window as though that effort has some merit and is going to actually accomplish something.

If we really care, there are things that must be made far more a priority and issues which should be addressed that might actually accomplish solutions. And picketing on a street corner about furs and then going home to a luxurious lifestyle is NOT a solution.

The true problem here is trying to answer how we address everyone else's rights and opinions, whether we agree with them or not. If we suggest that the Other has no right to think or act in a certain manner, regardless of how we define it, than we have automatically denied our own rights to exist.

We all know the difference between murder and inhumanity and acts of mercy and compassion.

But we all know that we are also enabling the 'system' by how we are living our lives.

Barking at the apple tree is not going to make it shake its apples loose.

This is why the 'harvest' is necessary.

[Jeremy]

I guess I look at consuming meat or in this case specifically turkey differently. Though the ways we obtain these turkeys may be considered cruel, I look at events such as thanksgiving as a form of service from the turkey. It provides a catalyst for family's who at other times of the year, may not be the closest but decide to put differences and their busy lives aside and come together to share in the love that they have for each other.

Sure one can say that the turkey isn't necessary in this case but I say why not? I just don't agree with the vegan philosophy though so maybe that's why. Without the need for the sustenance that 2d species have provided throughout the millenia, do you honestly think we would be where we are now? If you wanna get into semantics, aren't animals AND higher plant life such as vegetables and trees 2d so how can you differentiate between eating broccoli and an animal?

Anyways, by me giving thanks to the turkey for providing a service such as fueling my vehicle and in turn thanking the creator for providing the opportunity to enjoy such sustenance with family is all I need.

[Eddie]

In the land of the Pilgrims, turkeys fight back...

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/11/21/tu...brookline/

BROOKLINE (CBS) – Neighbors are on the offensive in Brookline after what some residents are describing as aggressive turkeys.

“They were attacking the vehicle,” Karen Halvorson said outside her home in the Aspinwall Hill neighborhood.

After getting in her truck, a neighbor came and ran the birds off but it didn’t stop there.

“Then, the turkeys came and started attacking my front door,” she said.

A second run-in came a few weeks ago as she walked nearby.

“I looked back and three of them charged me,” she explained.

She moved to the center of the street to avoid the animals, but it wasn’t enough.

“The turkey flew in my face and scratched my neck,” she said.

Halvorson refuses to give up her walks so she has taken precautions.

“I went down to the hiking store and I got a hiking stick with a big ball on top of it. I walk with it all the time and now I never go without my phone,” she said.

At different spots near the Halvorson house, Karen’s husband cut piles of sticks. Those, too, are for protection.

“At least we can throw a stick at them and run into the house,” said Halvorson.

Complaints to Brookline Police about wild turkeys have doubled in the past two months.

“Some people going to work and they’ve been chased by turkeys,” said Brookline Animal Control Officer Pierre Verrier.

He spends nearly every morning trying to keep the animals away from students at Brookline High School.

“Sometimes I even take a tennis racket to try and shoo them out,” he said.

Verrier says there are basic things you can do to protect yourself. If you see a turkey, move to the other side of the street. Make noise or spray the turkey with water.

Whatever you do, don’t feed them or try to take a picture.

“There was a gentleman who took a picture with a flash and they flew right into his face.”

There are two turkey hunting seasons a year in Massachusetts. But in metropolitan areas, with firearm restrictions, that doesn’t help.

A frustrated Karen Halvorson is now working with Brookline town leaders to organize a meeting about the problem. Neighbors need guidance and an opportunity to vent, she said.

“I can’t believe we’re living this way,” she said. Town Selectman Nancy Daly is helping coordinate the gathering which she said will likely be held December 6. She wants anyone who has had a run-in with a turkey to attend and tell their story.

A similar meeting was held last week in Newton, where aggressive turkey reports are on the rise as well.

The Newton meeting focused on prevention, like making sure there are no loose food scraps near compost piles and keeping lids on all trash bins.

[Monica]

For example, if you are wearing a diamond ring, and driving an automobile, living in a heated home, with refrigerated food, then YOU are a reason that this 'system' which you rebel against with regards to eating meat, is able to function to the degree where so many animals are tortured.

Respectfully, Shin'Ar, I find your statement absurd. Having a refrigerator or driving a car contributes to the 'system' in other ways, but NOT to the cruelty of animals.

One can choose to not participate in cruelty, without rejecting all technology. There are plenty of sustainable technologies available. There is plenty of food to go around. Our planet can sustain a much, much larger population if we make changes in our lifestyles, but it's not necessary to live like a monk to accomplish that. To say that declining meat is worthless because we unintentionally ingest microbes, is illogical. To say that the sincere actions of an activist (whether for animals, starving children, or whatever) is worthless if they have a refrigerator, is absurd. It's not an "all or nothing" proposition. We do what we can.

To say that someone seeking to change an aspect of the system, is rebelling against the entire system, isn't accurate. You speak of "depth and complex aspects" but then you divide into black and white...? It's not so simple. It's not "the whole system" vs "none of it."

It can certainly be argued that driving a car contributes to the system, as does shopping at Wal-Mart, but it cannot be argued that choosing to eat a plant-based diet contributes to the system. A plant-based diet is part of the solution. Eating meat contributes to the problem. Even the mainstream acknowledges this. Your argument has no substance.

Now if a vegetarian drives a Hummer, lives in a mansion, and shops at Wal-Mart, then you might have a case.

But if the vegetarian drives an inexpensive car, rides his/her bike whenever possible, lives in a small house with a garden, and is careful about where s/he shops, then those efforts should be commended, not ridiculed for "not being good enough."

Of all the positive things we can do, avoiding meat is the simplest, yet with the greatest impact. More bang for the buck!

And unless one takes this into consideration, one cannot on one hand rebel and on the other hand participate.

You seem to be lumping all of society, with all its good and bad, together, and implying that either one lives enmeshed in all of it, or none of it.

Its not that I am suggesting any degree of hypocrisy Monica,

Um...ok, right.

but as in my views on your meat thread, I think it is essential to consider the indepth and complex aspects of ALL issues so that we can develop understanding which also considers the rights of the Other when we try to assert our own.

You meant to say human other, right? Since animals aren't other?

Its not just a matter of defining and designating compassion anmd drawing lines.

You seem to misunderstand my premise, which has been, all along, that it shouldn't be necessary to define compassion, when conversing with other spiritual seekers.

To say we should fight for the humane rights of turkeys everywhere,

I never said that anyone should "fight" for the rights of turkeys. Choosing to eat something other than a dead animal generates a powerful energy. No fighting is necessary.

while at the same time participating in a system which is also directly responsible for abusing the humane rights of humans, is simply not understanding the true dynamics of why such things occur in the first place.

So...if one doesn't want to give up their meat, they can just justify it by saying that vegetarians are "directly" participating in the abuse of humans...is that it?

Whether or not you open a facebook page on human rights to give credence and balance to a fight for animal rights does not address the real issues of why such things happen.

Another assumption on your part. That I mention my activism on the internet tells you nothing about my activities elsewhere.

Let's discuss the complexities and maybe in gatheri8ng higher understandings, we can then move on to real solutions rather than just defining more opinions which really only results in the need to discern who has the most legitimate opinion or who has the loudest voice.

"Real solutions" that don't include stopping consumption of meat? Any other solution but that one, right? You're ok with all my other ideas, as long as I don't threaten meat-eating?

A grown man riding a bicycle naked through the city streets, and wearing a large dildo around your waste with a leather sadomasochist outfit on a parade float, while hundreds of little girls are there to see Santa Claus, is the result of the same 'system' which I am trying to get you to acknowledge in your efforts to address the mass murder of turkeys and cows.

Are we having a contest to see who has the most causes they are involved in? Must I champion every single cause, to gain your respect? Or must I drop the cause you feel is unimportant because it's so "miniscule?"

And the fact that such a system runs amok untethered for the sake of equality in the guise of humane inter-relations is the real problem which needs to addressed,

And just how do you propose we address it? Have you taken it upon yourself to tell that small segment of the gay population that they cannot do those things? How did that work out?

and participating in that system by adorning its luxuries is simply a matter of protesting prostitution while one is in reality actually prostituting themselves.

No hypocrisy, eh?

We must all acknowledge that we are deeply ingrained into this 'system' in many ways, and pointing a finger at one aspect of it while we continue to participate is simply waving a finger out the car window as though that effort has some merit and is going to actually accomplish something.

You seem to say a lot about what NOT to do...but you say very little about what TO do.

Sorry, but I have no respect for complaining, unless there is a better solution suggested. I haven't seen any from you.

I have respect for people who take action. I don't disrespect people who take no action - that is their concern, not mine. But it is those who ridicule the ones taking action, from the sidelines, while offering NO alternatives, that escape my notice.

If we really care, there are things that must be made far more a priority and issues which should be addressed that might actually accomplish solutions. And picketing on a street corner about furs and then going home to a luxurious lifestyle is NOT a solution.

LOL!!!! Oh Shin'Ar, if you only knew!

Sorry, but I can't stop laughing. I just got my husband in here and informed him that we have a "luxurious lifestyle."

Thanks for the laugh!

The true problem here is trying to answer how we address everyone else's rights and opinions, whether we agree with them or not. If we suggest that the Other has no right to think or act in a certain manner, regardless of how we define it, than we have automatically denied our own rights to exist.

I don't see the relevance of what you just said. And, there again is another of your definitions of the "problem." When you figure out the "solution" please let me know!

We all know the difference between murder and inhumanity and acts of mercy and compassion.

I had thought so, but now I'm not so sure. Unless, of course, you are referring only to compassion towards humans. Is that it? Just as millions of humans suffering is huge, but billions of animals suffering is "miniscule"?

But we all know that we are also enabling the 'system' by how we are living our lives.

Oh yes. On that point we agree!

Barking at the apple tree is not going to make it shake its apples loose.

If you think of yourself as the apple tree and my philosophical musings "barking" then perhaps it would be better if we didn't interact. Last I checked, this was a discussion forum, designed for the exchange of ideas. I have no interest in playing a game of "who's the purest of us all" or "I'm involved in more causes than you are" or "My cause is more important than your cause...your cause is worthless, your efforts are worthless unless you do as I do."

I started this thread because I felt it was an important topic, 1 month before a sacred, special date. If you think it's more important to discuss flamboyant gays parading in front of children, perhaps you might consider starting a thread about that. Please be sure to tell us ways that we might "fight" such important atrocities.

See, Shin'Ar, here is the difference between you and me: If you tell me you're starting a campaign to raise public awareness about the detrimental effects to children of gay flaming, I'd say "Go for it! Best wishes to you! I can see you're doing something you believe in...We can't all do everything, so I'm so glad to see you're taking on that cause, because I'm so busy with 16 other causes, I just don't have time to take on that one too" and I'd give you my blessing. (Just be sure to include heterosexual perverts, while you're at it! assuming it's the perversion you have issues with, rather than the gayness.)

I would never, in any way, tell you to not bother trying to save the starving children unless you also try to save the animals. I would rejoice that you are doing something. In fact, I told the story of my niece, whose husband is a hunter, but who does a great deal of humanitarian work. I applaud her service! It would be ludicrous for me to tell her that her service is worthless because she eats meat!

Yet, that is essentially what you seem to be doing: "Your service in championing the animals is worthless because...um...because...you have a refrigerator and drive a car."

If I follow my guidance in championing a cause that I think is vitally important, along with many other causes I think are also vitally important (some of which I've addressed here on the forum...but you seem to have missed?), rather than telling me "Hey go for it!" you seem to consistently try to tear it down and list reasons why I shouldn't bother, or am even a hypocrite for trying.

Well, Shin'Ar, I simply disagree with you.

Enjoy your turkey day.

---

In the land of the Pilgrims, turkeys fight back...

Must be karmic!

---

I guess I look at consuming meat or in this case specifically turkey differently. Though the ways we obtain these turkeys may be considered cruel, I look at events such as thanksgiving as a form of service from the turkey. It provides a catalyst for family's who at other times of the year, may not be the closest but decide to put differences and their busy lives aside and come together to share in the love that they have for each other.

The benefits have to do with families connecting, not from the eating meat itself. Families can share holidays without eating meat. We've been doing so for 29 years.

Sure one can say that the turkey isn't necessary in this case but I say why not? I just don't agree with the vegan philosophy though so maybe that's why. Without the need for the sustenance that 2d species have provided throughout the millenia, do you honestly think we would be where we are now? If you wanna get into semantics, aren't animals AND higher plant life such as vegetables and trees 2d so how can you differentiate between eating broccoli and an animal?

Anyways, by me giving thanks to the turkey for providing a service such as fueling my vehicle and in turn thanking the creator for providing the opportunity to enjoy such sustenance with family is all I need.

Those are some very good questions and points. I invite you to browse an old thread, in which we explored those and many others, quite extensively.

(Scroll down to the lower half of post #3 for a index of related topics.)

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.ph...2#pid89582

[reeay]

For a person who is highly sensitive to the issue of consuming animals & cruelty to the animals - do you somehow identify with the cruelty 'perpetrated' as parallel to experience that you had with being 'inflicted' by cruelty from other self?

[Diana]

All the intellectual arguing doesn't speak to the core of what I feel about cruelty.

Everyone's opinions are valid from their points of view. And we can go round and round about the details, and how everything is messed up and needs to change. And it doesn't seem to get anywhere to put things in perspective as Monica always so patiently tries to do.

I just can not look at the yearly mass slaughter of millions of turkeys and not have my heart break.

[BrownEye]

For a person who is highly sensitive to the issue of consuming animals & cruelty to the animals - do you somehow identify with the cruelty 'perpetrated' as parallel to experience that you had with being 'inflicted' by cruelty from other self?

This is how we begin to develop bias. You must develop bias before you can develop polarization.

[Monica]

For a person who is highly sensitive to the issue of consuming animals & cruelty to the animals - do you somehow identify with the cruelty 'perpetrated' as parallel to experience that you had with being 'inflicted' by cruelty from other self?

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure what you mean by identify with, and maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I perceive an implication that if someone "identifies with" something, then they have blockages in that area, or have unresolved issues pertaining to it...ie., a balanced person wouldn't identify with it at all. Am I perceiving correctly?

But let's examine your question in detail.

According to my understanding of the Law of One, the very purpose of the STS path is to create catalyst. It is the task of STS entities to create catalyst; that is how they serve the Creator. The purpose of catalyst is to provide an impetus for spiritual evolution.

How? By eliciting the emotions which lead to the choices that affect polarity.

That is the whole purpose of catalyst, is it not? To provide an impetus for polarization?

How could that happen if the person was not sensitive to the catalyst and thus no compassion was generated?

So, it logically follows that if a person isn't sensitive to such catalyst, then either a.) s/he is missing an opportunity to make efficient use of catalyst and polarize from it or b.) s/he is somehow 'above' such things and has no need for said catalyst.

It has been suggested by some (in the previous meat threads) that because they are 5D or 6D Wanderers, they have no need to utilize catalyst intended for mere 3D entities, and that anyone who does feel such compassion must be 'only' a 4D Wanderer who hasn't yet learned 5D wisdom.

I contend that such thinking is in error. A 5D or 6D entity doesn't lose the ability to feel compassion. If anything, it seems to me that such an entity would be accustomed to Oneness and wouldn't even be having this conversation. S/he wouldn't need someone to explain to them the concept of feeling compassion for a 2D entity. It would be a given.

It has been implied that we vegetarians are somehow 'unbalanced' because we feel compassion for animals. If that is the case, then I wold rather be unbalanced in the direction of too much compassion, than too little.

We did, after all, take on a great risk when we came to this planet: the risk of getting stuck in the muck and losing polarity. We must graduate along with the 3D entities.

The vegetarians have repeatedly stated that whether one eats animals or not isn't the sole determiner of whether one graduates. But I contend that, neither is it a non-factor. It is one among many factors...one of many opportunities to choose compassion.

[Shin'Ar]

WOW Monica,

I simply cannot see where anything that I posted could have possibly caused you to be so insulted and defensive.

In your effort to make my post somehow seem like an insult you completely ignored the specific places where I deliberately stated that I applaud your efforts.

It seems that this is just one of those topics that is so close to heart for you that you will see anyone who attempts to discuss it with you who is not in full compliance with what you suggest as insulting and causes you to misread their words entirely, so I will not engage you on the subject out of respect for your well meaning intentions.

I guess its just a matter of your not being able to understand the things I have tried to point out to you. I assure you that I also have a great deal of compassion toward our animal friends and find cruelty and mass marketing just as abhorrent as you, and again applaud your efforts and any means of reducing cruelty wherever it occurs to whatever is being abused.

But what I have to say both about the system, and our participation and enabling of it, being a far more grander problem than any miniscule particular aspect that one would choose to dissect from its whole, points to a rationale which can much more logically address many of those issues in ways much more beneficially.

That you have taken my words so personally and made them sound as though they were directed at you and your husband particularly reveals to me that this is a topic with which you are far too emotionally charged to even begin a discussion on.

So we should leave it there so no more misinterpretation can be made and no more insults taken where none are actually intended.

That certainly swerves no purpose.

I think that the point where you asked me how it would go for me if I was to challenge the gay flamers about the problem of public indecency best made my exact point.

That you didn't even get it, even as you were putting the shoe on my foot, speaks to the real reason why my words were taken by you the way way they were.

And it is such misunderstanding and inaccurate assumptions and interpretations which is the very 'system' which I have tried to point you to.

It is not that your efforts are unworthy or that the salvation of any suffering being is not a valid cause.

It is simply that in trivializing the complex nature of that which you battle, you do a greater injustice to a far greater cause which should be our focus.

And that is precisely why it would not go good for me to attempt to impose my opinion on gay flamers, in ignorance of the more complex nature of such interaction, just as it will not go good for you in your efforts to sway the entire world from eating meat.

However, because of your sensitivity toward the issue, you are unable to understand what I am saying here, and instead only take insult from it which I certainly do not want to do to you.

So I do apologize for causing you any insult by offering my thoughts on the matter. That was not my intention.

May I ask you one simple question?

What are your thoughts about feeding our dogs and cats?

[Monica]

WOW Monica,

I simply cannot see where anything that I posted could have possibly caused you to be so insulted and defensive.

In your effort to make my post somehow seem like an insult you completely ignored the specific places where I deliberately stated that I applaud your efforts.

It seems that this is just one of those topics that is so close to heart for you that you will see anyone who attempts to discuss it with you who is not in full compliance with what you suggest as insulting and causes you to misread their words entirely, so I will not engage you on the subject out of respect for your well meaning intentions.

I guess its just a matter of your not being able to understand the things I have tried to point out to you. I assure you that I also have a great deal of compassion toward our animal friends and find cruelty and mass marketing just as abhorrent as you, and again applaud your efforts and any means of reducing cruelty wherever it occurs to whatever is being abused.

But what I have to say both about the system, and our participation and enabling of it, being a far more grander problem than any miniscule particular aspect that one would choose to dissect from its whole, points to a rationale which can much more logically address many of those issues in ways much more beneficially.

That you have taken my words so personally and made them sound as though they were directed at you and your husband particularly reveals to me that this is a topic with which you are far too emotionally charged to even begin a discussion on.

So we should leave it there so no more misinterpretation can be made and no more insults taken where none are actually intended.

That certainly swerves no purpose.

I think that the point where you asked me how it would go for me if I was to challenge the gay flamers about the problem of public indecency best made my exact point.

That you didn't even get it, even as you were putting the shoe on my foot, speaks to the real reason why my words were taken by you the way way they were.

And it is such misunderstanding and inaccurate assumptions and interpretations which is the very 'system' which I have tried to point you to.

It is not that your efforts are unworthy or that the salvation of any suffering being is not a valid cause.

It is simply that in trivializing the complex nature of that which you battle, you do a greater injustice to a far greater cause which should be our focus.

And that is precisely why it would not go good for me to attempt to impose my opinion on gay flamers, in ignorance of the more complex nature of such interaction, just as it will not go good for you in your efforts to sway the entire world from eating meat.

However, because of your sensitivity toward the issue, you are unable to understand what I am saying here, and instead only take insult from it which I certainly do not want to do to you.

Funny, from my perspective, you aren't understanding my points at all, and in fact don't even bother to respond to them (as I do yours). So I guess we can just call it even!

So I do apologize for causing you any insult by offering my thoughts on the matter. That was not my intention.

You wonder why I took offense, then proceed to list numerous misconceptions about me, my views, and even whether my efforts are doing any good, to the point of saying I'm making it worse :exclamation:, while rarely, if ever, addressing any of my points in an acedemic discussion, but instead offering a new barrage of your own points, then apologize all in the same breath? Not to mention calling the Queen of the Wall of Text on the Subject of Meat one who "trivializes the complexity" of the subject! Oh that's rich, Shin'Ar!

May I ask you one simple question?

What are your thoughts about feeding our dogs and cats?

If you are truly interested in my views on that subject, you will find them if you search. I've already discussed that subject previously.

I am now politely declining any further discussion with you. Have a good day, Shin'Ar!

[Plenum]

hey, if you it makes you guys feel any better, I didn't eat any turkey today.

[Monica]

hey, if you it makes you guys feel any better, I didn't eat any turkey today.