[split] "Some people eat animals, some don't."

[JustLikeYou]

Monica, I'm not here to debate with you since you walk into the conversation with your mind already made. For that very reason, I'm not going to unwind the many implicit assumptions in your rhetoric (or mine). You are free to see in my words whatever you like: I will not defend myself. I will say, however, that I do see the ramifications of my claims and will stand by them until my experience demonstrates otherwise.

You may be pleased to know that you have given me an opportunity to reflect, yet again, on the impossibility of avoiding hypocrisy, from the car I drive, to the organizations that pay me, to, indeed, the plants and animals that feed me. It's a painful thing to think about, but an important one never to forget.

Happy travels.

[Monica]

Monica, I'm not here to debate with you since you walk into the conversation with your mind already made.

I also already have my mind made up that raping little girls isn't congruent with the STO path either.

...

[Minyatur]

Agreed. From the Creator's perspective, or even from our own 6D perspective, indeed there is no right or wrong. Those are very simplistic notions. But, from the perspective effective use in catalyst, right/wrong is more about efficiency. Ie., for an STS-oriented entity, being of service to others isn't effective, ie. could be considered 'wrong' whereas, for an STO-oriented entity, serving self at the exclusion of others, or controlling/harming others for benefit of self, could be considered 'wrong' as it has the opposite effect that they want to accomplish.

A simplified idea of right and wrong originated in the mind of an STO-oriented being; ie., harming others/hate/violence etc. = 'wrong' or bad, whereas serving others/love/peace etc. = 'right' or good. We know it's not quite that simple, but the premise is sound, generally speaking, ie. in terms of general guidelines but Not rigid rules.

Sure but you look at this through your own eyes only and how you personally feel about it.

If you were to eat meat it would probably affect your polarity greatly. In my case I don't feel anything whatsoever about eating meat. And it's not because I don't like animals, I do love them.

But ultimately, no matter how STO I become, I will not picture the human that creates and partakes first hand in these animal slaugthers as not having the right to be what he is (which is exactly what we all are), nor will I think that the experiences for which these animals incarnate in this space/time are meaningless as part of their paths. It is a chosen building block of their future selves, which they are to become and exist only for the purpose of becoming. And each experience was meant to be even before any of us started our own path of awareness of self. The earth could become a 100% vegan, and these same 2D souls which would have incarnated here for that experience, would simply incarnate elsewhere for the very same experience. So in raising the earth's polarity and changing the people's way, all you'd acomplish is draw in different kinds of souls which would seek a different kinds of experiences.

Like I said, in my view fate is not something you can even mingle with. The only thing you can do is play your required part in it, always, whatever your level of awareness is, you ever were incarnating what you were meant to incarnate since the very beginning, exploring only the illusion of it feeling so real. Always providing service as required by yourself and other-selves.

7D is not without polarity because it suddenly disapears, polarity becomes reconcillied because whatever the polarity, it will equally be seen as Love. To reach that level of awareness, you'd need to view whatever polarity of action you'd do as Love and Light, STS and STO losing their meaning as you'd not longer be acting for yourself which both polarities are equally about, but instead providing to other-selves the service that is needed for their own path.

My whole point, don't judge actions of others as per what it means in term of polarity for you. Polarity is very personal to each and is heavily linked to the intent and understanding one has.

[Monica]

Sure but you look at this through your own eyes only and how you personally feel about it.

You speak as though this were just a matter of personal taste...like preferences about movies or music.

If you were to eat meat it would probably affect your polarity greatly. In my case I don't feel anything whatsoever about eating meat.

The victims do. They absolutely do feel quite a lot, whether you do or not.

But ultimately, no matter how STO I become, I will not picture the human that creates and partakes first hand in these animal slaugthers as not having the right to be what he is (which is exactly what we all are), nor will I think that the experiences for which these animals incarnate in this space/time are meaningless as part of their paths. It is a chosen building block of their future selves, which they are to become and exist only for the purpose of becoming.

Let try applying this concept to a different species and see how that works:

But ultimately, no matter how STO I become, I will not picture the human that creates and partakes first hand in these rapes and murders as not having the right to be what he is (which is exactly what we all are), nor will I think that the experiences for which these rape & murder victims incarnate in this space/time are meaningless as part of their paths. It is a chosen building block of their future selves, which they are to become and exist only for the purpose of becoming.

How does that work?

These things happen and will continue to happen in 3D. But again, the question is whether it's congruent with our chosen path to directly support these things. In doing so, we share in the responsibility of perpetuating that cycle of enslavement and violence. Is that what our Higher Selves intended when we volunteered to incarnate on this planet?

...

[Monica]

Like I said, in my view fate is not something you can even mingle with. The only thing you can do is play your required part in it,

Do you see it as a requirement? Do you not think you have any choice in what you participate in?

7D is not without polarity because it suddenly disapears, polarity becomes reconcillied because whatever the polarity, it will equally be seen as Love. To reach that level of awareness, you'd need to view whatever polarity of action you'd do as Love and Light, STS and STO losing their meaning as you'd not longer be acting for yourself which both polarities are equally about, but instead providing to other-selves the service that is needed for their own path.

I see it differently but that's another topic so I'll leave it at that.

My whole point, don't judge actions of others as per what it means in term of polarity for you.

I don't.

Polarity is very personal to each and is heavily linked to the intent and understanding one has.

Agreed. However there are some principles that come into play. And, I mention polarity only in response to the laissez-faire attitude and callous disregard so prevalent here in regards to the enslavement and harming of others.

...

[Minyatur]

Do you see it as a requirement? Do you not think you have any choice in what you participate in?

I make choices constantly everyday. I find that hard to avoid, and I think we all feel differently about different things which challenge us. We all have our own indifferences and things we care more about.

I can agree with you, but I can't ignore the fact that no matter how many times it's put in my face, it doesn't get to me. I also do not tend to avoid thinking about it, it's just an ugly side of human society that I wouldn't have put there myself but do accept its existence. In my view I could simply not be here and it wouldn't make that much of a difference, so I tend to focus more on what's directly around me.

[Jade]

Can I make a little aside comment about restaurants? I work at a restaurant that buys as much local and organic food as possible, the menu only has a couple chicken/fish dishes (no red meat/pork) and overall is pretty "clean". We get a lot of tourists and almost every night I hear "This is the best food I've ever had/in as long as I can remember!" (as well as a lot of people who sit down, take one look at the menu, and leave) A little boy the other night told me his carrots and rice tasted like candy. It's really fun to see people react (who have probably never or very rarely eaten food that had any thought put into it whatsoever), and then in turn advocate organic, natural, etc. I mean it's not my favorite thing to say "Oh yeah the chicken's free range!" because I know that's dubious at best, but it still helps plant the seeds in people's mind that clean, well-raised, fresh food is 100x > regular restaurant Costco/Mcdonald's/Monsanto food.

We live in this weird capitalist society so where we choose to spend our money is important. The money we make is our energy to redistribute. I think constantly evaluating out relationship with this energy form is prime catalyst.

[Minyatur]

My main problem about my own polarity on this is that I perceive that animals that incarnate in meat factories do incarnate there willingly on an unconscious level to live the experience that they seek or need to experience. In time/space the meat factory isn't such a good vibrational environment yet souls do incarnate there, just like the earth in itself is far from being the best time/space environment and yet souls do come here because this place can provide the experiences that they need to become what they are to become.

In my view meat eating is a complementary service even if deemed STS. If an entity is to become service to self in it's path, nothing can stop it. It will seek what can provide the experiences it needs in this world where nothing is random but instead more of an interdependent resonance in my view, where self is always ever perfectly complementary to what it interacts with and always as it is required to be. Even if the entity is not to become STS, it remains a building block of what it is to become as any experience is.

So in my view, meat eating can be done in a STO way. All it needs is for self to acknowledge the experience of other-self as part of it's rightful desired path it is incarnating and not deem it worthless or lesser than any other. Ultimately we are to see every single service as Love, and when that is achieved every action will always be STO even when providing/supporting negative catalyst.

[Jade]

I agree with you that animals are choosing these conditions to incarnate. Earth, at its most heightened place of polarity, has some heinous conditions to experience for beings that are willing. But as we move into 4D positive more and more of these things will eventually fall away, the less people choose to participate in them. It's a collective agreement when we decide that we don't need to experience trauma and imprisonment in such ways.

In the same way we are offering them a service of a home in our planet of polarity, they too are offering us a service: a chance to serve them. A chance to make a more nuanced choice of service, and choosing to abstain from the collective acts of negative catalyst. Or we can continue to participate, either way, it *is* a service. However, if we use the analogy of a sick person - someone who has bodily catalyst that is lowering their quality of life - and they ask me for help, and I hear them, I feel it is my duty to alleviate the illness, and not perpetuate it because they are experiencing the negative catalyst they need. If possible, my choice is to avoid participating in negative catalyst for others. I know I can't avoid that entirely, but if I'm aware that a choice involves me inflicting negative catalyst, I prefer to avoid it. If I can aid in alleviation, I will, and they can subsequently choose to experience "illness" again if they so desire.

Again, that is if the help is asked for and I hear it. Not everyone hears the animals' calls for help, which just means it's not their service, at this time. Just like most of us aren't in Africa feeding the hungry.

42.7 Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for this in third density. Many entities here feel great compassion toward relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, bringing them food if there is hunger as there is in the African nations now, bringing them medicine if they believe they require administering to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.


This is creating a polarization or a vibration that is in harmony with green ray or fourth density. However, it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth density that these entities are experiencing catalyst and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth density than it would be to administer to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.

On the other hand, however, you are correct in your assumption that the green ray response is not as refined as that which has been imbued with wisdom. This wisdom enables the entity to appreciate its contributions to the planetary consciousness by the quality of its being without regard to activity or behavior which expects results upon visible planes.

So of course the vibratory state of our being (being accepting and loving and compassionate) is of primary importance, but there can also be a point where our actions begin to contradict that desired state of being. That's the one caveat with 3D, you *have* to act and cannot just be. And those physical actions are infinite refinements of choice.

[Minyatur]

I have a deep belief that if not here, then elsewhere. Souls that seek an experience will always find it as other-selves simultaneously exist to provide these experiences. As such whatever I do, both actions can be done in Love. The case of meat eating is done in a very indirect manner, as I acknowledge the purpose of the current system rather than trying to create it myself or provide directly the experience myself.

This of course applies to what I can view as Love as per my own wisdom and experiences and how each of my actions make me feel.

[AnthroHeart]

That's the one caveat with 3D, you *have* to act and cannot just be. And those physical actions are infinite refinements of choice.

Dolores Cannon would disagree. She says the volunteers who are here are here to be.

[Diana]

That's the one caveat with 3D, you *have* to act and cannot just be. And those physical actions are infinite refinements of choice.

Dolores Cannon would disagree. She says the volunteers who are here are here to be.

Perhaps. And I agree with this in theory. But choices are still made, even if it is just the choice to be and not take action.

One must eat if one is in 3D. Choices HAVE to made about that. Even if the person chooses not to choose. This goes to the heart of conscious living and creating one's own reality.

[Minyatur]

That's the one caveat with 3D, you *have* to act and cannot just be. And those physical actions are infinite refinements of choice.

Dolores Cannon would disagree. She says the volunteers who are here are here to be.

Perhaps. And I agree with this in theory. But choices are still made, even if it is just the choice to be and not take action.

One must eat if one is in 3D. Choices HAVE to made about that. Even if the person chooses not to choose. This goes to the heart of conscious living and creating one's own reality.

How does one chooses not to choose? Starve to death?

[Diana]

How does one chooses not to choose? Starve to death?

No. That is a choice.

You choose not to choose, don't you, regarding what you eat?

Choosing not to choose is usually unconscious (I refer to most people who have not yet awakened to the idea of taking responsibility and choosing consciously).

[Aion]

The arguments more seem to arise around the consequences of choosing consciously.

[Minyatur]

How does one chooses not to choose? Starve to death?

No. That is a choice.

You choose not to choose, don't you, regarding what you eat?

Choosing not to choose is usually unconscious (I refer to most people who have not yet awakened to the idea of taking responsibility and choosing consciously).

I am pretty much aware of everything I do eat, just as for what unconscious/conscious reasons I had/have the various habits I do have.

[upensmoke]

I didn't read the whole thread so if this was stated my apologies. Eating meat is STS and i feel the reason most people on these forums say otherwise because they're in denial about their own STS tendencies or they're mind is stuck in a distortion that manipulates things so they believe everything they are doing is STO. I will admit i eat meat, and that it is entirely STS. No one NEEDS to eat meat and most if not all people living in a first world country has the ability to go vegetarian or vegan, but we choose not too. I remember Ra saying something about a 51% to 49% ratio for graduation into 4d positve. So to all the STO's that think eating meat is not STS. Stop lying to yourself and embrace your true self we are all ying and yang. we are all one.

Think about this. If an individual is totally cool with the idea of a more intelligent species coming to earth and treating humans as cattle and live stock. if you can picture that scenario and honestly say to yourself that your OK with your friends and family being slaughtered for the sake of food even though this new intelligent alien species has no need to eat humans. lets say they can survive off of plants too. if you can honestly say that this hypothetical alien race is still STO then you can say eating meat is STO.

To think about myself and act within my own interest. I like meat therefore i eat meat despite the fact I DONT HAVE TOO and it causes pain and suffering. That is selfish, that is STS and i accept that. everyone else who eats meat and has the ability not to is in denial. On a side note i wish to try and go vegatarian but right now i feel as if i have more important things to take care of in my life which can also be seen as a STS action

[Aion]

Holy sweeping statements, Batman.

I don't have anything more to add, but I do find it interesting watching this thread progress as different people drop in with their interpretations and justifications on both sides. I think it's interesting seeing people discussing in absolutes. One says its this way, another says its that way, and I always wonder where the truth in the middle lies...

[Aion]

If I may ask, to those whose believe so, what exactly is the flow of energy that results in negative polarization when eating meat? What are the metaphysics behind that polarization?

[Nicholas]

If I may ask, to those whose believe so, what exactly is the flow of energy that results in negative polarization when eating meat? What are the metaphysics behind that polarization?

Associating meat eating (choice) with polarity is pure dogma dude, pure and simple. We simply cannot know what is truly right or wrong in our physical, self sustaining experience. That's why truth is subjective.

I suspect that those who proclaim otherwise (despite their wealth of date) have yet to recognise what Ra were pointing to when they used the word "illusion". 

The word "illusion", as well as "distortion" personifies (at least to me) the hopelessness in quantifying, or moralising on the virtuous nature of our dinner plates.

I would even suggest that this "train" is a distraction, in and of itself!

[Monica]

I agree with you that animals are choosing these conditions to incarnate. Earth, at its most heightened place of polarity, has some heinous conditions to experience for beings that are willing. But as we move into 4D positive more and more of these things will eventually fall away, the less people choose to participate in them. It's a collective agreement when we decide that we don't need to experience trauma and imprisonment in such ways.

In the same way we are offering them a service of a home in our planet of polarity, they too are offering us a service: a chance to serve them. A chance to make a more nuanced choice of service, and choosing to abstain from the collective acts of negative catalyst. Or we can continue to participate, either way, it *is* a service. However, if we use the analogy of a sick person - someone who has bodily catalyst that is lowering their quality of life - and they ask me for help, and I hear them, I feel it is my duty to alleviate the illness, and not perpetuate it because they are experiencing the negative catalyst they need. If possible, my choice is to avoid participating in negative catalyst for others. I know I can't avoid that entirely, but if I'm aware that a choice involves me inflicting negative catalyst, I prefer to avoid it. If I can aid in alleviation, I will, and they can subsequently choose to experience "illness" again if they so desire.

Well said! You totally nailed it!

I don't understand why this simple concept is so difficult for so many people to understand. This is the essence of the difference in polarities: How we choose to respond when we encounter an opportunity to be of service to others.

Again, that is if the help is asked for and I hear it. Not everyone hears the animals' calls for help, which just means it's not their service, at this time. Just like most of us aren't in Africa feeding the hungry.

While I do get your point that we can't all do everything, and not everyone feels compelled to spend time each day championing African children (or animals), this conversation isn't even about activism. Actively working to help the starving children is called activism, just as actively working to end the enslavement and torture of animals is activism.

But we're Not even talking about activism. We're talking about directly contributing to the starvation/enslavement/torture/slaughter!

It's one thing to say "I'm too busy to help the starving children in Africa, and anyway I contribute to other worthy causes and I just can't do everything" but quite another to actually CAUSE more children to starve with one's choices every single day.

Don't have time, or don't feel compelled to be an activist? Ok, no problem. But at least don't keep knowingly contributing to the problem!

So of course the vibratory state of our being (being accepting and loving and compassionate) is of primary importance, but there can also be a point where our actions begin to contradict that desired state of being. That's the one caveat with 3D, you *have* to act and cannot just be. And those physical actions are infinite refinements of choice.

Exactly! And, non-action is still action. Non-choice is still choice.

But beyond that, continuing to knowingly contribute to the unnecessary suffering of animals IS a choice! It isn't a non-choice; it's a choice! A negatively polarizing choice, most likely, because it's simply Not necessary, and thus falls into the category of callous disregard, at best.

...

[Monica]

I didn't read the whole thread so if this was stated my apologies. Eating meat is STS and i feel the reason most people on these forums say otherwise because they're in denial about their own STS tendencies or they're mind is stuck in a distortion that manipulates things so they believe everything they are doing is STO. I will admit i eat meat, and that it is entirely STS. No one NEEDS to eat meat and most if not all people living in a first world country has the ability to go vegetarian or vegan, but we choose not too. I remember Ra saying something about a 51% to 49% ratio for graduation into 4d positve. So to all the STO's that think eating meat is not STS. Stop lying to yourself and embrace your true self we are all ying and yang. we are all one.

Think about this. If an individual is totally cool with the idea of a more intelligent species coming to earth and treating humans as cattle and live stock. if you can picture that scenario and honestly say to yourself that your OK with your friends and family being slaughtered for the sake of food even though this new intelligent alien species has no need to eat humans. lets say they can survive off of plants too. if you can honestly say that this hypothetical alien race is still STO then you can say eating meat is STO.

To think about myself and act within my own interest. I like meat therefore i eat meat despite the fact I DONT HAVE TOO and it causes pain and suffering. That is selfish, that is STS and i accept that. everyone else who eats meat and has the ability not to is in denial. On a side note i wish to try and go vegatarian but right now i feel as if i have more important things to take care of in my life which can also be seen as a STS action

Well said! You totally nailed it! I commend your honesty!   

...

[Monica]

If I may ask, to those whose believe so, what exactly is the flow of energy that results in negative polarization when eating meat? What are the metaphysics behind that polarization?

Let's say John beats his wife. His dad beat his mom, and his granddad beat his grandmother. That's just what men did in those days and it was never questioned.

But John and his wife live in the modern age. It's impossible to escape the news about women's rights. John watched a presentation about sexual harassment at work, so he is well aware that when a woman says "No!" that means NO. He now knows that women are equal to men, rather than inferior, as his dad taught him. His boss at work is a woman! He can no longer feign ignorance about the status of women.

John's wife tries to stand up to him, but she puts up with his violence because she doesn't want to break apart her family. So she stays with him, for the sake of the kids.

John's dad and granddad never questioned their beliefs that men were superior to women. But John has. Advances in women's rights have ensured that he is fully informed.

Now that John knows better, do you think it will be polarizing if he decides to continue beating his wife?

...

[Monica]

Associating meat eating (choice) with polarity is pure dogma dude, pure and simple.

By your 'logic' then Ra was quite dogmatic when they provided principles of STO/STS.

We simply cannot know what is truly right or wrong in our physical, self sustaining experience. That's why truth is subjective.

Subjective doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at all. It simply means that it's subject to interpretation.

No one, not even Ra, can conclusively state whether an action is directly polarizing STS or STO. Why? Because many factors come into play: circumstances, intentions, catalyst, etc.

But, general principles can indeed be articulated. Ra did that. Ra provided key concepts regarding the characteristics of polarity and what facilitates polarizing in either direction.

'Right' and 'wrong' are subjective only to the degree that one is oriented towards a particular polarity. Ie., what is 'right' for an STO-oriented entity might be deemed 'wrong' for an STS-oriented entity. In this context, 'right' and 'wrong' have more to do with efficiency of polarizing potential.

But to completely toss out these concepts is to disregard the concepts of polarity - something that Ra considered important enough to speak at length about.

I suspect that those who proclaim otherwise (despite their wealth of date) have yet to recognise what Ra were pointing to when they used the word "illusion". 

And I suspect that those who completely disregard such concepts have missed a huge chunk of Ra's teachings, and have attempted to reduce profound, complex concepts to mere minutiae.

The word "illusion", as well as "distortion" personifies (at least to me) the hopelessness in quantifying, or moralising on the virtuous nature of our dinner plates.

The terms illusion and distortion mean much more in Law of One vernacular than in common lingo. May I suggest that you might be demeaning these concepts to a shadow of their rightful meaning.

Dinner plates have No virtue, nor lack thereof. It is the chain of events that led to the contents of your dinner plate, that has virtue (or lack thereof).

I would even suggest that this "train" is a distraction, in and of itself!

Classic denial.

...

[Nicholas]

If I may ask, to those whose believe so, what exactly is the flow of energy that results in negative polarization when eating meat? What are the metaphysics behind that polarization?

Let's say John beats his wife. His dad beat his mom, and his granddad beat his grandmother. That's just what men did in those days and it was never questioned.

But John and his wife live in the modern age. It's impossible to escape the news about women's rights. John watched a presentation about sexual harassment at work, so he is well aware that when a woman says "No!" that means NO. He now knows that women are equal to men, rather than inferior, as his dad taught him. His boss at work is a woman! He can no longer feign ignorance about the status of women.

John's wife tries to stand up to him, but she puts up with his violence because she doesn't want to break apart her family. So she stays with him, for the sake of the kids.

John's dad and granddad never questioned their beliefs that men were superior to women. But John has. Advances in women's rights have ensured that he is fully informed.

Now that John knows better, do you think it will be polarizing if he decides to continue beating his wife?

...

Monica that is a totally flawed analogy because you are cross contaminating survival  with polarity. 

[Monica]

Monica that is a totally flawed analogy because you are cross contaminating survival  with polarity. 

How so? Please explain. Whose survival?

...

[Nicholas]

Monica that is a totally flawed analogy because you are cross contaminating survival  with polarity. 

How so? Please explain. Whose survival?

...

The opportunity of choice arrives in 3rd density. You have compared the plight of animals to the plight of a seemingly helpless female married to john. I get where you are are coming from here (to protect?)

The consequence of evolving to 3rd density involves being individuated from the group. That means you are isolated, alone, separate, in an intellectual context.

Animals do not have that perspective, neither (according to Ra) do they suffer the consequences of a self individuated perspective. Isolation is not of 2nd density, is it not?

[Monica]

The opportunity of choice arrives in 3rd density. You have compared the plight of animals to the plight of a seemingly helpless female married to john.

No, you have misunderstood.

The question was about the process of polarizing. I gave the analogy to illustrate.

I wasn't comparing the abused woman with abused animals. That wouldn't have been a good analogy, because the woman has the resources to get out of her situation, whereas the animals don't. You are correct that she has choice in this case, whereas the animals don't. (That's Not to say that animals are incapable of choice! They certainly are! But they don't have any choice regarding their enslavement, whereas the modern woman in this analogy does.)

Rather, I was comparing the abuser of the woman (who knowingly continues the abuse even after his eyes are opened to the equality of women, whom he had previously thought inferior, due to the way he was raised) to the meat-eater (who knowingly continues to support the abuse of animals, even after his/her eyes have been opened to the suffering of animals, the sentience of animals, and the needlessness of eating meat/dairy).

The consequence of evolving to 3rd density involves being individuated from the group. That means you are isolated, alone, separate, in an intellectual context.

There is no question that farm animals are individuated. Suffering facilitates self-awareness.

But then, so does love.

Which would we rather impose upon them?

Animals do not have that perspective, neither (according to Ra) do they suffer the consequences of a self individuated perspective.

Ra never said that they lacked that perspective.

Isolation is not of 2nd density, is it not?

Of course it is. Just look at the pigs in their crates, unable to even turn around for their entire lives. Look at the veal calves, torn from their mothers and stuck in a dark crate, and kept malnourished so their meat will be more tender. That is indeed isolation.

If you meant the awareness of isolation, then that too most certainly exists in 2D (late 2D, Not early 2D).

To say that isolation is not of 2D, is like saying love is not of 3D.

Love does exist in 3D, does it not?

Being the criteria for graduation to 4D doesn't preclude it from existing in 3D! Just as self-awareness being the criteria for graduation to 3D doesn't preclude it from existing in 2D.

In fact, love and self-awareness MUST exist in 3D and 2D, respectively, in order to allow time to develop and refine those qualities to the level sufficient for harvesting.

One does Not simply go from 0 to 51% in an instant.

...

[Nicholas]

No, you have misunderstood.




...

In essence, I believe I have not misunderstood. I love your passion Monica but animals simply cannot relate to 3rd density suffering. From our human perspective, this is a golden era of expression. 

[Diana]

Holy sweeping statements, Batman.

I don't have anything more to add, but I do find it interesting watching this thread progress as different people drop in with their interpretations and justifications on both sides. I think it's interesting seeing people discussing in absolutes. One says its this way, another says its that way, and I always wonder where the truth in the middle lies...

People have their opinions. Just as you do. Instead of pointing the finger, perhaps allow that this subject is volatile, and where there is great suffering involved, people will get emotionally invested; and likewise, people will defend themselves emotionally.

Let me repeat: There is great suffering involved with perpetuating animal farming for meat consumption. Personally, I don't know what more anyone needs to know in order to choose not to participate. While I have been very interested in widening my perspective and knowledge about this matter, the bottom line is that it causes great suffering. I cannot understand that most people either don't care, or they just can't deal with it (which is more understandable).

Animals suffer. We cause animals to suffer. Who here thinks this is okay? Who thinks starving children in a world of abundant resources is okay? Who thinks abject poverty and homelessness is okay? I am not suggesting we all set out to fix anything. But I ask, Why would you (to no one in particular) choose consciously to contribute to suffering? It is the biggest BS to say you (to no one in particular) do it to serve the animals. I am aware of course that the suffering we may cause inadvertently or ignorantly in our lives is insidious, but when it comes to making a conscious choice, WHY choose to cause suffering? Don't anyone bother trying to refute that their participating in the system of consuming meat is too small to make a difference. That is just more BS.

Obviously I'm emotionally invested. But I just came back from the store and had to drive past countless horses out in the sun hanging their heads and not moving in dirt yards. I think I must be a misanthrope, because humanity makes me throw up sometimes. I'm screwed apparently, ever being one with it all. Perhaps there are some here who will feel nice and superior in their lofty clouds because they are above it all.