[split] "Some people eat animals, some don't."

[Monica]

I don't care about agreement, I am just being honest with my disagreement. If anything I am just trying to not give in to the fear of expressing myself honestly because of how I may be perceived.

That's a risk we all take when we engage in an internet discussion. Any time we type any words, we run the risk of being misunderstood, and others form skewed opinions of us based on their limited perceptions from typed words only, without the benefit of tone of voice, facial expressions, body language, and all the other tools we have when communicating in person. This is a very limited mode of communication, to be sure!

For the record, I think you have expressed yourself very well, and much more fully in these last couple of posts.  

To Monica, I think we may disagree on exactly how the mechanics of the heart chakra works and I feel that may be closer to the root of our misunderstanding. You likely will not agree, but I see us as having very similar desires but we have chosen very different ways to approach the matter.

The thing is, the approach I am taking has been studied and explored considerably less than the approach you are taking, or so it appears to me and for that reason I can not 'toe to toe' with you because my experience has informed me in such a dramatically differing way it is mind blowing.

OK.

However, you have often asked about walking on the lawn and the response of the grass. My answer is that it depends what I am listening for. If I listen for agony, I find and hear agony. If I listen for bliss, I find and hear bliss. Thus, in my understanding plants don't seem to precisely experience emotions in the same way we do but rather seem to experience all emotions simultaneously at once which can be 'picked out' by a perceiving consciousness. Thus, if you are looking for bliss, you will find bliss. This is in regards to plants.

So, really, I think plants both suffer incredibly and experience the most profound bliss without any paradox because they still dwell largely within the unity of the Creator. Thus, they are all things. What we see in them is the reflection of ourselves.

OK I'll go along with that.

The same is true for animals and humans as well, the difference is that as you come in to third-density you gain veiled conditions. Second-density doesn't have the veil, every plant and animal is aware of itself as the Creator, it is only when it crosses into third that it obscures this awareness.

For example, 'lower' second-density creatures such as insects, worms and other such invertebrates are just as well aware of themselves as the Creator as a pig, sheep or dog. The veil isn't put on until the beginning of a third density incarnation so a second density being will always end its second density experience in full awareness of itself as the Creator and as its group and then it will begin to realize self-awareness and individuate.

Creatures, as they move through second density, gain all the understandings of tribal self as they see themselves as one with the family or species. When they individuate they start again except rather than being focused on species as self, the self is individual and the ladder is climbed again.

Here's the sticky part: You say and then it will begin to realize self-awareness and individuate. At what point does this happen? Ra didn't give a precise answer on that.

But, extrapolating from what we know about the criteria for graduation into other densities, we can make an educated guess.

We know that the criteria for graduating to 4D is a certain percentage of a certain attribute. So it logically follows that graduation to 3D would also require a certain percentage of a certain attribute.

In the case of going from 3D to 4D, that attribute is love, either of self AND other-self, or self only.

Now, I ask you this: Is it possible for entities to experience love, while still in 3D?

The answer is clear: Of course!

Look around you. Nearly all humans have the capacity to love, to some degree. Maybe not enough to be harvestable yet, but they sure do love, even if only selectively, even if it's only their children or spouse and they haven't yet learned to love freely. But they can and do love!

The objective for 3D is to refine that attribute of love!

So clearly, the attribute required for graduation to the next density is displayed, expressed and developed in the previous density!

Extrapolating from this, it makes sense that the attribute for graduation from 2D to 3D - self-awareness as an individual, or sentience - would also be found in varying amounts during the course of 2D, while being developed and refined over time.

So yes, while they're still 2D, animals do have the advantage of still being One with All. But I suspect - and this is just an educated guess based on my understanding, being that Ra didn't specify an exact point - that it's more of a ratio shift taking place. In other words, it makes sense to me that the more sentient they become, the less Oneness they feel. It's a process.

Just as we are building the structure for a SMC, even though that is an attribute of 4D. We are still building it in 3D. So too, it seems to me, do late 2D entities build the structure for individuality, which presupposes being cut off from the collective.

Therefore, I contest your assertion that animals are still 100% aware of their Oneness, and your implication that this somehow reduces their anguish.

If that were true, then we wouldn't be seeing such obvious signs of anguish, quite simply! If that cow totally knew she was just getting merged back into the collective, she wouldn't be showing such terror in her eyes, and she wouldn't be valiantly, desperately struggling to escape the executioner.

If anything, your observations support my contention that early 2D entities have a collective consciousness, with full awareness of their Oneness with All, while late 2D entities (usually indicated by a face and pain receptors) have varying degrees of individual awareness, with less awareness of Oneness, as they are very close to losing that awareness of Oneness altogether.

Thus, early 2D entities, such as plants, do indeed reflect back myriad emotions and vibrations, as you observed. Why? Because they dwell in the group mind, undifferentiated. This is why a field of corn that has been violated with pesticides exudes sadness, while a lovingly tended garden may exude bliss, as you observed. But each individual stalk of corn isn't a sentient being. It is part of the collective. Monoculture farming, with its poisonous chemicals and disrespectful, even torturous machinery for harvesting, obviously harms the field of corn. No question about it. This is why those of us who care about such things make a point to buy organic and local whenever possible, to minimize our contribution to such abominable practices.

It is the same when comparing meat from cows who were allowed to graze in the pasture, vs buying meat from factory farms or eating in a restaurant (which uses meat from factory farms). Obviously, it is more of an abomination to first torture the animal, before killing him/her.

But, in the case of animals, you then have the added complication of individual sentience, on top of the offense made to the collective.

When supporting monoculture and chemical farming practices, one is supporting an offensive way of treating plants, and the plant collective is surely harmed.

But when supporting ANY meat or dairy, one is supporting Not only the offensive way of treating animals as a collective (as with plants), but also the direct enslavement and overpowering of a sentient being who clearly wants to live.

It is a much deeper, graver offense than that done to plants.

This is Not to minimize or demean the offenses to plant life! But it is of a different nature, because plants have a different nature. Plus, if one truly wanted to reduce those offenses done to plant life, then the logical way to do that is...to quit eating animals! Because many orders of magnitude MORE plants are killed, in order to feed farm animals!

In fact, the #1 cause of monoculture and chemical farming is...the meat/dairy industry!

You are right that simply going vegan isn't going to magically fix the whole food production system. Certainly, many vegans still support the poisonous and offensive system of monoculture. But they support it much LESS than their meat-and-dairy-eating counterparts.

Our food production system is very f***** up, no doubt about it. We have a verrrrrry long ways to go, towards living in harmony with the planet. Eliminating meat is the first step. It's the most important step, because everything else is a by-product of that.

Plus, look at how difficult it has been for even self-professed '6D Wanderers' to care about the suffering of beings who have faces, emotions, pain receptors and who bleed like humans. Do you really think we'd have better luck if we switched to a campaign to save the plants?

I mean seriously, people can't even muster up some compassion for a being that struggles, cries out in pain, and bleeds. Are they seriously going to care about the plight of the corn? Sorry, but the idea is absurd.

And it's useless anyway, because the main reason all that corn is grown the way it is, is to feed the cows!

At the end of the day, the best way - no, the only way - to help the corn is to quit eating the cows.

Maybe in a couple of decades, when we've accomplished that, there will be less need for farmers to use toxic chemicals, because the demand for corn will be so much less, because only humans will be eating corn and they won't have to artificially produce such huge amounts of it.

No matter how you slice it, the first step is always to quit eating animals. That is the lynchpin. Remove that and the rest will start falling away too.

However, the best way for second density to get to third is by investment by third or above.

Maybe not necessarily the 'best' but certainly the most expedient.

Farm animals are being invested by 3D humans, but Not in a good way. They're being invested by being enslaved, tortured, raped and killed.

This is the real problem for second density when the investment is one of suppression. Rather, these second density entities will be very, very slow in moving towards third density because they will perpetually be stuck in the lower sub-densities of second, due to no social interaction or self-reflection to build from orange to yellow.

I disagree. Remember, the criteria for moving towards 3D is self-awareness. There are many other ways to become self-aware besides being invested by humans.

First of all, humans aren't the only ones with social structures. Animals have social interactions too! They have complex social structures and have been observed having best friends and even playing jokes on others. We overestimate our importance when we think we are the only ones who can invest the animals. They can do just fine on their own, without us, thank you very much.

Think about the deer who stepped in a hole and broke her ankle, and now cannot keep up with the herd. She is easy prey for the wolves. Separated from the other deer, and stalked by wolves, she is alone and suddenly is very acutely aware of her predicament. That is self-awareness! Her body registers pain as they tear into her flesh. Her emotions surge in a sudden flare of panic and terror.

Oh yes, she has just taken a huge leap towards sentience!

I personally think it's a very crude system for triggering sentience, and being that this planet is an experiment, I like to think that most planets didn't evolve that way. Ra said that they didn't have violence on Venus. That sounds to me like they probably didn't have 2D entities killing one another for survival, like we have here. It makes sense to me that the very design of this planet, based on so much bloodshed, is a major factor in the continued bloodshed among 3D humans. The whole planet is awash in blood.

If we are evolving, then we must be the ones to stop the bloodshed. We can't expect the lion to lie beside the lamb, when we are still eating the lamb! We are, presumably, the elders on this planet. We must start with ourselves.

However, since the species shares a mind and experience it is questionable what happens to the souls of these creatures. I get the sense that there is a balancing mechanism so that an animal soul that experiences trauma will then incarnate to heal that trauma through a more peaceful life. This then alternates back and forth between difficult lives and easy lives so a full spectrum of individual content can be experienced to the point that there is enough dynamic in the consciousness to spark the sudden moment of self-awareness.

Good heavens, do you not think that having one's throat slit, or being scalded alive in boiling water, would spark a sudden moment of self-awareness?

As for alternating traumatic with peaceful lifetimes, that is an interesting speculation, but I see nothing to back it up. It's speculation, at best.

Now, this is where my theory will probably be infuriating to some. I believe that the animal souls that experience such trauma actually become more likely to be compassionate and more likely to choose the positive polarity in third density on a species level because they will already be empathetic and acquainted with both suffering and victims,

I  have expressed this idea before and in fact I agree that it is happening, at least some of the time. See my thread '2D Animals Evolving?' There are more and more instances of animals showing compassion for other animals being recorded. Yes, some of them are displaying signs of accelerated development.

But those cases are few and far between. I've seen maybe a couple of dozen of them, at least that were captured on video. Undoubtedly there are many more that weren't captured on video, but at best, that small number still pales in comparison to the many billions of animals who are being literally tortured and killed every year by the meat/dairy industry.

Where are all those souls going? Yes, some seem to be coming back as more highly-evolved beings. But what about all the others?

Here's what we know about humans who are severely abused as children: Many of them grow up to be sociopaths. There is a clear pattern that increases the likelihood of being a sociopath: Abuse as a child, without any love shown to them before age 7. If they still never got a chance to heal and bond with another human before age 7, that child has a high risk of being a sociopath because their character is pretty much 'set' before age 7. (I'm sure there must be some exceptions, but this is just what statistics show, based on studies of sociopaths.)

Does this mean that ALL abused children will be sociopaths? Thankfully, No. But a large percentage of them do.

Does this mean that ALL sociopaths will be psychopaths? Thankfully, No. Many sociopaths exist in society. But many of them do turn into psychopaths.

Extrapolating from that, it makes sense that it would work the same way with late 2D entities. I have been saying for awhile that the meat/dairy industry might be populating some dark planet somewhere...a society of sociopaths. I shudder at the thought.

On top of that, I think that most souls which go through those experiences only do so at most a few times but I think typically only once.

What is the basis of your speculation?

Honestly, I've glanced at your past lives a couple times, Monica and it appears that you had multiple animals lives with suffering but the reason it is so vivid for you is because you were actually a higher density being incarnating as an animal to see what it's experience actually was like. Needless to say you were rather affected by the experience. I think there are certain species which are connected to your own consciousness and they are ones you experienced bodies as.

Maybe so. If that's true, then there's a reason I took on this assignment.

I spent a good deal of time as a tree, so that maybe explains why I feel more defensive of plants. Honestly I think I just find it unfair that the animals get a crusade but the plants don't. I'm horrified by large-scale, hydroponic growing of plants for food. It's the exact same as a meat factory in my mind, never getting to be free or experience ecosystem and the diversity of nature only to be consumed, often without thanks. It's tough for second density all around it seems.

Then perhaps we should be working together. The best way to help the plants is to quit eating the animals.

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