Free Will Denial

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I think absence of free will is still a choice of free will, paradoxically so.

But to choose to desire something to stop, not being free will choice, when choosing to continue is.

I just cannot resonate with that. I am sorry, Plenum.

[upensmoke]

I think if i understand the thoughts that are effecting you right now correctly. It may come down to the idea of if you see a difference between free will and application of free will. For example i'm sure before the plane was invented people wanted to fly. They had the will to fly but didn't know how to apply that will into one of the infinite ways a achieving flight. It wasn't until the airplane was invented, that people know one of the ways to achieve flight was by the dynamics of an airplane.

something else you can think about is for example there is a super bad ass roller coaster called life. On this roll coaster their is a puzzle called growth.The ride is one were the roller coaster does not stop until the puzzle is solved this may be absolute. From there it comes down to did you choose to ride this roller coaster ? if you did are you not responsible or accountable to solve the puzzle?

if you think you are not responsible or accountable to solve the puzzle, i would then think it comes down to whether or not the operator has the ability to stop the ride. If he does stop the ride, does it affect the ride(will) of the other passengers ? are you alone on the ride ?

[Minyatur]

I'm gonna be an a******. I think you need to get over yourself. You hate it because you hate yourself and you can't imagine that this reality is representative of yourself. So you seek to hate the reality so you don't have to acknowledge the parts of yourself that you hate. So much easier to project it externally, to hate the world, than to face your own greedy, selfishness.

Trust me, I know, I'm the most self-serving bastard on the planet.

Trust me I know, I'm the most brutally honest person.

To myself.

I've already admitted I'm a monster in parts

But my true fear is being a horror as I feel.  Somewhere down there I am, and I'm looking at it (down the rabbit hole) and its bad.

I'd put it on par with the stuff you and yera speak of being in past lives, only worse.  A universe killer of infinity.  A very deep hate and twisted sadness bleeding from anger i can't quite describe except worse than Malice.

Be an ass all you want, you're talking to one

But I also made my choice.  I'd rather Love.

Don't worry, you're not the worst thing in the Universe.

By loving these parts of yourself, you can learn to love others who have incarnated the same things.

When I think of those that plague with darkness, I feel sorrow for they are oceans of unwellness that see not Light. That seek love but find nothing to understand them truly. When given love that understands not, it amplifies darkness and hatred, it deepens their abyss.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I think if i understand the thoughts that are effecting you right now correctly. It may come down to the idea of if you see a difference between free will and application of free will. For example i'm sure before the plane was invented people wanted to fly. They had the will to fly but didn't know how to apply that will into one of the infinite ways a achieving flight. It wasn't until the airplane was invented, that people know one of the ways to achieve flight was by the dynamics of an airplane.

something else you can think about is for example there is a super bad ass roller coaster called life. On this roll coaster their is a puzzle called growth.The ride is one were the roller coaster does not stop until the puzzle is solved this may be absolute. From there it comes down to did you choose to ride this roller coaster ? if you did are you not responsible or accountable to solve the puzzle?

if you think you are not responsible or accountable to solve the puzzle, i would then think it comes down to whether or not the operator has the ability to stop the ride. If he does stop the ride, does it affect the ride(will) of the other passengers ? are you alone on the ride ?

I've used the flying as an example of Free Will Manifesting future events and Intuition helping lead Evolution, Humanity desired to fly, some called it impossible, others said, "Where there is a [Free] Will there is a Way." And got to looking for that way, and one day it happened, flight through intelligent design of a vehicle that y/our vehicle could utilize!  Co-creation, the plane being manifested from thought into physical reality.

The analogy of the amnesiac Bound comes into play for this roller coaster still.  He has forgotten why he is on the roller coaster and wants it to stop now, that is a desire, a choice of his desire.  Why?  Maybe he's motion sick, tired of the hard turns, sore from being thrown about the seat's edges continually.  Whatever it may be, he's accepted it is happening but wants it to stop understanding that free will exists, and see's that it does not stop like he thought it was supposed to in description of how free will operates.  At least according to his distorted understanding of being an autonomous self aware entity supposedly with free will.  Not so much a question of manifestation, but more of why catalyst continues ensuing when one discovers it's existence and intelligently wants it to stop through practice, and in failure of that, in pure belief, and in failure of that, pure prayer and asking endlessly, and in failure of that, anger and frustration, and in failure of that ultimately deduces that he has not Free Will in regards to manifesting a future without catalyst, or creating a situation where catalyst can't ensue temporarily.  No control what so ever, even in surrendering to the catalyst it still continues even when you cooperate desiring it to stop.

He, as a Human Being, who identifies not so much separate his consciousness, but equal to, is confused why his free will is not just as valid as his consciousnesses free will.  Is it arrogant to equate self's 'free will' or Human Free Will to the Law of Free Will's described Conscious Free Will?

I'm gonna be an a******. I think you need to get over yourself. You hate it because you hate yourself and you can't imagine that this reality is representative of yourself. So you seek to hate the reality so you don't have to acknowledge the parts of yourself that you hate. So much easier to project it externally, to hate the world, than to face your own greedy, selfishness.

Trust me, I know, I'm the most self-serving bastard on the planet.

Trust me I know, I'm the most brutally honest person.

To myself.

I've already admitted I'm a monster in parts

But my true fear is being a horror as I feel.  Somewhere down there I am, and I'm looking at it (down the rabbit hole) and its bad.

I'd put it on par with the stuff you and yera speak of being in past lives, only worse.  A universe killer of infinity.  A very deep hate and twisted sadness bleeding from anger i can't quite describe except worse than Malice.

Be an ass all you want, you're talking to one

But I also made my choice.  I'd rather Love.

Don't worry, you're not the worst thing in the Universe.

By loving these parts of yourself, you can learn to love others who have incarnated the same things.

When I think of those that plague with darkness, I feel sorrow for they are oceans of unwellness that see not Light. That seek love but find nothing to understand them truly. When given love that understands not, it amplifies darkness and hatred, it deepens their abyss.

This is true, you sound like you're speaking from experience in my mind.  I do love these parts, why else would I intentionally suffer for them to try and understand them?

I'm like that girl who dates an ass hole of a guy, who is mean, but she loves him and wants to help, and doesn't know how so is trying to find out regardless of the abuse because she loves him.
That or there's a major case of Sherlock Syndrome going on in that she feels trapped with that guy.

Who knows, maybe one day I will

[upensmoke]

I still think it comes down to application of free will or focus of free will. just because this enitity hasn't found a way to cease catalyst doesn't mean its not possible. it reminds me a qoute fro manga "Anything someone else can do you can do too. Just because you can't do something doesn't mean anyone else can't "

may i ask why does the entity want catalyst to stop and what is the meaning of catalyst to this entity how would this entity define catalyst ?

also with the roller coaster analogy let me amend it a bit

there is a super bad ass roller coaster called life. On this roll coaster their is a puzzle called growth.The ride is one were the roller coaster does not stop until the puzzle is solved this may be absolute. when the passenge gets on the ride he will forget why hes on the roller coaster and what he has to do. From there it comes down to did you choose to ride this roller coaster ? if you did are you not responsible or accountable to solve the puzzle ?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

That's basically the same question I asked -rubs eyes sleepily-

Is he responsible for something he has no memory of possibly permanently as far as that.ride goes extending into other rides of the same name with different.turns and such (another incarnation)

I don't know, my.opinion is he shouldn't be, but my opinion isn't the way things are.

The entity just wants a break from catalyst to fully and properly assimilate previous lessons learned and not do so on the run so to say. As stupid as that might sound.

[Aion]

Say you drink until you black out, then do something stupid and embarrassing. Are you responsible for your actions even if you have no memory? Is the choice to follow through with the activity of drinking enough to establish responsibility?

What if this pattern continues, like an addiction?

Or, how about if someone takes the life of someone else and then gets in an action and becomes an amnesiac. Are they still responsible for their previous actions?

I could also frame it completely differently. A man is journeying through the woods. He is following the signs but inevitably becomes very lost and cannot find his way back for days, weeks or months even. When he returns he is thought to be dead, his lover has moved on and his house and things have been sold. Is he responsible for his tragedy, despite at the outset he had no intention to get lost?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Seems valid except the parameters are different.

This is a philosophical question:
Does a Permanent Amnesiac deserve to be Bound to a Contract he 'signed' as another personality?

The blackout drunk concept makes sense except it is inherently different to the scenario being questioned.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

As for murdering, having become the infringer what authority still deems you responsible as a completely new personality unlike the previous one you were? Does becoming full amnesiac and acquiring a new personality through learning (not unlike growing up) not make you a completely different person? Imagine if you had DID, you've various personalities who are inherently different. Only in.THIS example you've lost all others and only have one current which is different from the previous.

Are you still the same Entity?

Edit: damn you work and your crappy phone reception, an entire post lost v-v

[Aion]

Seems valid except the parameters are different.

This is a philosophical question:
Does a Permanent Amnesiac deserve to be Bound to a Contract he 'signed' as another personality?

The blackout drunk concept makes sense except it is inherently different to the scenario being questioned.

I think the way the question is framed in a way that is misleading to the actual nature of things. You appear to be considering the incarnation process as though there is some bureaucracy which orders and commands the life plans of all things. However, I view incarnation as one of stepping in to a different environment, so thus there are the conditions of the environment.

If you made the choice knowing you would become amnesiac then I would say yes you still carry the responsibility after that choice. You say permenant amnesiac but I believe that, for one, no veil is permanent or even totally consistent, and two, that this whole concept presumes remembering upon leaving this reality because you would no longer be caught in the amnesic state.

How about this one. You are at a carnival and you decide to try a new ride that you've never been on before. You then proceed to get really sick and vomit everywhere. Is it the ride's fault for making your sick or your own fault for going on it? Or do you blame the designers of the ride?

I am basically paralleling the amnesia of the veil with the ignorance of an experience.

Say you grow up and forget about your experience, you then proceed to accidentally repeat the situation. Is it your fault for forgetting and thus causing another episode of discomfort?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I should add, we're speaking of human perception. Not so much the actual mechanics as I agree with arguments given, specifically the rollar coaster and drunk and murderer, Free Will exists to a consciousness, does it exist to a consciousness that believes itself human?

Do Humans have Free Will or is that too, Veiled?

Does the veil limit Free Will too?

[Aion]

Well, Ra first mentions Free Will in regards to the First Distortion and they have referred to it as a 'freedom of will of awareness' because it is the point when infinity became aware of finity in all its parts. There was then some kind of focusing that formulated biases within the free will. They called this Logos/Love.

This is different from the 'Law of Confusion' or Law of Responsibility which more seems to be something relating to polarity and interactions between Logoi.

The whole point of trying to not infringe free will is so as to not influence future actions. Ra cites this as the reason many times for withholding information, because of how it may affect future choices. Thus, I think that sometimes people take the Law of Free Will as being a freedom from interference but I think there is a more subtle aspect at play.

The reason these things would be free will infringement from Ra's perspective is because they are able to view probabilities, and so can predict with some accuracy whether or not they are altering these probabilities through their actions. However, I think the law would be applied different had they not been aware of the possibilities for change as they would no longer be privy to the consequences and so their actions could not be construed as intentionally altering the probabilities and thus there is no infringement. Had they continued knowing the possibilities of change and knowing that it would alter the choices of the individuals it would have been free will infringement.

However, Ra at one point described a mechanism whereby there is a 'dimensional difference'. In other words, Ra in 6D has a much more higher chance of influencing or altering future choices because they exist outside of time and so can see the probabilities. An entity in 5D would probably have a little less to worry about as their awareness would not encompass as much and so they would not be as privy to the influence of their actions. So while there may be some infringement it would be only slightly polarizing at most I imagine.

So my question for you, is do you think you can infringe your own free will or do you genuinely believe there is some outside force which is enforcing particular paths and patterns upon you?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

What if that 'outside' source were viewed as me interfering with myself?

I am the interferer, interfered myself, interfering.

If there is a pestilent...no,.that's not the right word. Parasitic. No... uh. Obstinate Way of Thought, or a well knotted Mental Configuration that holds its own belief seperate of I (as per its beliefs, not mine), refuses to listen to other logic, and believes itself arrogantly equal to.

How does one deal with such when even in love it does not care. Apathy intermixed with distorted logical beliefs, without considering the intuitive ways of Creation.

Thoughts?

[Aion]

You've mixed yourself here. You started off identifying it as yourself and then separated it again.

I am gonna ask the same question, is it possible for you to infringe upon your own free will?

You deal with it by owning it and seeing it's really your own thoughts and feelings. You are the one struggling with these beliefs, not some 'thought in itself'.

When we first started talking I had asked you what ended your period of bliss. You don't think maybe it has something to do with your completely contradictory thoughts? It's like you're wrestling with yourself and winning and losing at the same time.

If you want my honest opinion though and how I deal with such thought patterns. I accept it, embrace it, then let it be destroyed, I let it die.

[Parsons]

Seems valid except the parameters are different.

This is a philosophical question:
Does a Permanent Amnesiac deserve to be Bound to a Contract he 'signed' as another personality?

But it isn't really "another" or separate personality. You are simply a portion of that greater personality. You are literally contained within that higher self. And that higher self / higher portion of your consciousness simultaneously exists; it is not some sort of 'past' decision.

Your higher self or greater personality made a much more informed decision from their perspective. They were able to see the basic layout of your (their) incarnation into this reality as though there were standing on top of a mountain overlooking the valley that is the collection of experiences of your incarnation. They were able to see all the pitfalls that you might (or definitely) fall into before they sent a portion of their personality into that valley. They did not take this decision lightly and so there were no accidents.

So to say that this incarnation was some kind of mistake or that you could somehow break the 'contract' that higher portion of yourself set for you is totally paradoxical. If you exist, you are not a mistake. Also, since that higher portion of your consciousness has control over 'involuntary' bodily functions such as your heartbeat, if it decides there is no more value in the experience of this incarnation, it has the ability to end it.

So if you are alive and breathing, you deserve to be and there must be SOMETHING valuable your higher consciousness is getting out your experiences.

[Parsons]

Perhaps you understand all this. Even so, then there seems to be a disconnect between your understanding of what I just said and how your own free will works? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Aion]

I think in my mind it all comes down to resistance. What is your real struggle? Resistance. Resistance to what?

[AnthroHeart]

Whatever the resistance is, it helps to feel it in the body, and allow yourself to release it by letting go.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

You've mixed yourself here. You started off identifying it as yourself and then separated it again.

I am gonna ask the same question, is it possible for you to infringe upon your own free will?

You deal with it by owning it and seeing it's really your own thoughts and feelings. You are the one struggling with these beliefs, not some 'thought in itself'.

When we first started talking I had asked you what ended your period of bliss. You don't think maybe it has something to do with your completely contradictory thoughts? It's like you're wrestling with yourself and winning and losing at the same time.

If you want my honest opinion though and how I deal with such thought patterns. I accept it, embrace it, then let it be destroyed, I let it die.

Honestly, I am trying my best to make sense of it.  It is still I, but different than I, as All Is One I am many but experience myself as not many so I am both many and not many.  Its INCREDIBLY HARD maintaining proper context in such a situation Aion :/

You're not wrong, though bliss and despair are now side by side come n go.  And I AM doing it to myself.

Because I want to understand.  The point to evolution, polarity, illusion.  Not how they work, how what they're doing, but why.

I can't correct what is not wrong Parsons.  I do understand, and I think I do have an incorrect belief regards Free Will.  I am literally putting myself through hell for my higher self to understand I don't like this place.  Stop sending me here.  Yet I am terrified once back these feelings will vanish or be assimilated as...a passing moment.  And I'll be back, again.

I think all this illusion talk is me saying I Am Illusion.  Which is backwards to you all, but to me I am.  I am a being of consciousness who believes himself alone and separated.  That is illusion I understand.  Therefore: "I" AM.  ILLUSION.

I'm not myself lately.  I'll randomly be fine, feel Im doing this to learn, Then once back 'in it' (my distorted version of perception as 'reality') I'm very terrified, pained and scared.  That its infinite, forever lasting constant horror.

But i have to say my book is getting some really.juice psychological horror out of these experiences.  I wonder if Edgar Allen Poe felt these ways.  His work; The Power of Words read like he channeled information.

I am resistant to reality.  I prefer dreams.  Fantasy.  Illusion in the form of I created the illusion.  I resist life.  I do not like my current placement in reality.  I'm nobody.  Worthless.  Useless.  And that's okay I've been told.  I've also been told I put myself here.  That's okay too. Because I at tge deepest level of myself that I can feel, do not like it here.  Maybe its my soul, maybe its I.  Maybe its my consciousness.  I don't know.  But I do know that even in bliss, deep in Work in.Consciousness I was...'sad' even while in bliss.  At everything around me .  At thepeople who hurt themselves. At the places ddestroyed and ruined.  At the beauty of destruction.  Everything here makes me sad.  Yet I continue on.  Just want to love, so how do I love this...madness, horror?  So I'm in hell, looking feeling being.  Trying to understand, so that Humanly I may approach it, and be resolute that I know horror only through others, that I may love and forgive with resolution.  I don't know if that's part of the madness though.

Gem: I feel it in my solar plexus as a solid heavy weight.  Which makes sense...
But letting go.  I did that.  It just comes back.  Let it go, came back more.

As the Nine Inch Nails song The Wretched put it so elegantly: You can try to stop it but it keeps on coming.

Letting it go.  It just comes back to me.

Maybe...that's just my illusion...

[Aion]

You have to destroy it, don't just push it away, kill it, break it, smash it, destroy it. Let your anger loose on it.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Did.

It came back. Did again, came back.

[Aion]

So where is it generated and what is the design from which it is generated?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Myself.

So i destroyed myself and still just back to Square 2.

I worry that its a preincarnational design, I am Supposed to go through this. In which case. God help me

[Aion]

What is yourself? If you are illusion how can you be truly the source of yourself?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

And now you stumble into my domain of uncertainty. How does the OIC create self?

Where'd the OIC come from? Why existence at all?

All is one, I am that One, what is...where does...how did... all irrelevant before: Why?

Do I need to suffer to know?

I think I'll just focus on the future I want while being present in the moment away from my reality that beckons and bangs.
Or something. I'm lost so I don't know, need to do something or else...it comes.

[Aion]

I'll take a crack at it. I'd say that self comes from infinity becoming aware. So infinity prior to its awareness was still infinite but it had no experience of itself, and thus was no self. When it became aware it then was able to distinguish selfness as its content.

This content then was experienced as the myriad finities which make up the many while all still being experiences within the infinite ones of the One. Thus, the self is actually the great illusion. You say that it all comes back to yourself. I say there is no such thing.

I say this also of me, so whom is speaking if no self? Only the Creator. Where does the voice come from? From silence. Where does silence come from? From nothing.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Well nothing is 'STILL' some-thing.

What comes before nothing?

If there is no self, then I am illusion.  If there is no self, and I AM, then I am Illusion.  If I am OIC, and OIC is self, and there is no self.  Then I am illusion.

Do you see my line of thought here?

What comes before illusion?  What is real if the OIC is illusion?What is beyond the Infinity of the Creator that made Infinity possible

[Aion]

Where do all beginnings start and all endings end?

[Aion]

Also, could also ask, what is 'illusion' if everything is illusion, doesn't that negate the illusion and make everything real? Or is that even more terrifying?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

All beginnings here in this illusion are nonstart beginnings, all ends are nonend endings, with the end starting the beginning and the beginning starting the end.

Outside of this infinity-tier model something begun infinity. To become aware of infinity implies we were just here as far as we know. Where did infinity come from?

How'd it be-come? Infinity even holds eternal realms, that are as is, the One Source in a sense. Where'd it come from? I get it'll be, always is was and will be. But from where? Maybe its not a place. So where'd infinity spawn from? How did we be-come?

Free Will too is a part of Infinity, if infinity is illusion. Free Will is illusion. Is All is illusion, where did all come from? If all is self and self is illusion, all is illusion.

Who is the Zero Infinite Creator? The one who made The One possible? Who's the Seed of Infinity, its Creator? The OIC found itself in infinity as One. Where'd the Infinity come from?