We Are Here

[Tenet Nosce]

[Unbound]

Who is We?

[zenmaster]

If that were indeed the case, it'd mean "we" were not harvestable basically.

[Tenet Nosce]

If that were indeed the case, it'd mean "we" were not harvestable basically.

It's a working model.

What we do know is that there are definitely those here now in our earth experience that appear rather devoid of compassion. So the pertinent question would be: which sub-density of third density is dominant at the moment?

The fourth subdensity.
Roughly: 1st: .1%, 2nd: 10%, 3rd: 20%, 4th: 40%, 5th: 30%, 6th: 10%, 7th: 1%

[zenmaster]

One question is can 3D-mind access in any manner, the local work being done in the 1st or later subdensities of 4D before 3D is gone?

[Tenet Nosce]

One question is can 3D-mind access in any manner, the local work being done in the 1st or later subdensities of 4D before 3D is gone?

Good question. Do you know of anything from the Ra Material that addresses this?

[zenmaster]

Another question: 4D lacks a "veil". Therefore all is remembered. If that is the case, is it possible for later-evolved 4D entities from other civilizations (millions of years in 4D) to incarnate and/or arrive here and still not infringe on free will? At what point would this be possible? My guess is as soon as the transition is complete, which would be many generations from now. I am assuming that the later-4D entities coming here would be aware of any possible infringement.

[Tenet Nosce]

Who is We?

You mean... Who ARE We? Perhaps the more pertinent question is: When ARE We?

---

My guess is as soon as the transition is complete

Which transition?

[spero]

nice chart Tenet Nosce

If that were indeed the case, it'd mean "we" were not harvestable basically.

being in 3D and tapping into green ray is kinda the default requirement for harvestability of STO's at the end of a cycle. leaving during a cycle is a different story and likely requires higher energy centre defaults, but the chart doesn't suggest unharvestability, at least not at this junction in time.

One question is can 3D-mind access in any manner, the local work being done in the 1st or later subdensities of 4D before 3D is gone?

the work of the adept which goes beyond harvestability of green ray and works on blue, indigo (intelligent infinity) and violet (intelligent energy) has the purpose of transmuting planetary harvestability and consciousness....so im gonna say yes

Another question: 4D lacks a "veil". Therefore all is remembered. If that is the case, is it possible for later-evolved 4D entities from other civilizations (millions of years in 4D) to incarnate and/or arrive here and still not infringe on free will? At what point would this be possible? My guess is as soon as the transition is complete, which would be many generations from now. I am assuming that the later-4D entities coming here would be aware of any possible infringement.

if STO 4D then they'd be all about open telepathic communication, social memory complex's and going forth and being active in the galactic community in service. they know each others minds and they're experience however advanced would be shared in much the same way 4d entities would benefit from 5d and 6d teachers. if they were STS 4D then they'd be all about the infringing and lording their experience over less evolved entities.

[Tenet Nosce]

One question is can 3D-mind access in any manner, the local work being done in the 1st or later subdensities of 4D before 3D is gone?

This is a guess, but what if the range were 49 sub-sub-densities?

Then, if we were to further assume humanity is now focused on the 7th sub-sub-density of 4th sub-density of 3rd density, then it would now be possible to access up to the 3rd sub-sub-density of 1st sub-density of 4th density.

If this were the case, then 4D would have become accessible at the 4th sub-sub-density of 4th sub-density of 3D.

[zenmaster]

Good question. Do you know of anything from the Ra Material that addresses this?

Not directly. "One more; that is, the permeability of the densities so that there may be communication from density to density and from plane to plane or sub-density to sub-density."
The barrier to awareness across densities is the mind, which is enabled by the body. But it seems that the spirit "resonates" with non-specific info across densities. Also, as higher influences lower and the higher is in the local environment there should be "spiritual" awareness (catalyst?) at least of some degree. And due to that influence, there may possibly be a trickle-down to 3D mind.


Also when Ra says "You will find a sharp increase in the number of people, as you call mind/body/spirit complexes, whose vibrational potentials include the potential for fourth-vibrational distortions." I take that to be an overt thing (i.e. not yet happened) which is in disagreement with what a lot of people have been saying. Basically, yet another thing to reinforce the notion of a longer transition. 4D in potential and 4D in activation on earth are different things. The later is formed by the "logos" of inhabitants+planet.

---

My guess is as soon as the transition is complete

Which transition?

Transition to 4D earth - potential to actual.

[Tenet Nosce]

Transition to 4D earth - potential to actual.

Transition of the sub-Logos (earth) to 4D? Or transition of the sub-sub-Logos (humanity)? There appears to be some disparity in development.

[zenmaster]

nice chart Tenet Nosce

If that were indeed the case, it'd mean "we" were not harvestable basically.

being in 3D and tapping into green ray is kinda the default requirement for harvestability of STO's at the end of a cycle. leaving during a cycle is a different story and likely requires higher energy centre defaults, but the chart doesn't suggest unharvestability, at least not at this junction in time.

I don't take the chart as suggesting green ray tapping, but as suggesting densities, subdensities and sub-subdensities. These are completely different concepts, but related as the experience for learning the "lessons of love" become less and less distorted as one progresses through the subdensities. The more distilled experience and awareness, the more polarization, and so the more likely that one is working with green-ray.

One question is can 3D-mind access in any manner, the local work being done in the 1st or later subdensities of 4D before 3D is gone?

the work of the adept which goes beyond harvestability of green ray and works on blue, indigo (intelligent infinity) and violet (intelligent energy) has the purpose of transmuting planetary harvestability and consciousness....so im gonna say yes

Yes, this is true. But adepts were doing this long before there were working 4D vibrations of mind here. Also this adept work was a function of remembering, and not of accessing the local mind.

Another question: 4D lacks a "veil". Therefore all is remembered. If that is the case, is it possible for later-evolved 4D entities from other civilizations (millions of years in 4D) to incarnate and/or arrive here and still not infringe on free will? At what point would this be possible? My guess is as soon as the transition is complete, which would be many generations from now. I am assuming that the later-4D entities coming here would be aware of any possible infringement.

if STO 4D then they'd be all about open telepathic communication, social memory complex's and going forth and being active in the galactic community in service.

woah, woah.. These are different concepts. Carla says it'd take a million years of 4D existence to form a social memory complex. Further, abilities are learned over time, even in 4D.

they know each others minds and they're experience however advanced would be shared in much the same way 4d entities would benefit from 5d and 6d teachers. if they were STS 4D then they'd be all about the infringing and lording their experience over less evolved entities.

The context of my question was mainly to do with incarnated older-4D souls here. What is the development of 4D civilizations entail across the 4D subdensities. The teacher doesn't teach if the student isn't ready.

---

One question is can 3D-mind access in any manner, the local work being done in the 1st or later subdensities of 4D before 3D is gone?

This is a guess, but what if the range were 49 sub-sub-densities?

Then, if we were to further assume humanity is now focused on the 7th sub-sub-density of 4th sub-density of 3rd density, then it would now be possible to access up to the 3rd sub-sub-density of 1st sub-density of 4th density.

Why do you think this follows from the assumption?

If this were the case, then 4D would have become accessible at the 4th sub-sub-density of 4th sub-density of 3D.

I don't see how this could be?

[zenmaster]

Transition to 4D earth - potential to actual.

Transition of the sub-Logos (earth) to 4D? Or transition of the sub-sub-Logos (humanity)? There appears to be some disparity in development.

The sub-sub-logos is basically the earth+inhabitants formed from "mind", there is 3D now and 4D becoming active due to the abilities of 4D incarnated individuals.

[spero]

nice chart Tenet Nosce

If that were indeed the case, it'd mean "we" were not harvestable basically.

being in 3D and tapping into green ray is kinda the default requirement for harvestability of STO's at the end of a cycle. leaving during a cycle is a different story and likely requires higher energy centre defaults, but the chart doesn't suggest unharvestability, at least not at this junction in time.

I don't take the chart as suggesting green ray tapping, but as suggesting densities, subdensities and sub-subdensities. These are completely different concepts, but related as the experience for learning the "lessons of love" become less and less distorted as one progresses through the subdensities. The more distilled experience and awareness, the more polarization, and so the more likely that one is working with green-ray.

One question is can 3D-mind access in any manner, the local work being done in the 1st or later subdensities of 4D before 3D is gone?

the work of the adept which goes beyond harvestability of green ray and works on blue, indigo (intelligent infinity) and violet (intelligent energy) has the purpose of transmuting planetary harvestability and consciousness....so im gonna say yes

Yes, this is true. But adepts were doing this long before there were working 4D vibrations of mind here. Also this adept work was a function of remembering, and not of accessing the local mind.

Another question: 4D lacks a "veil". Therefore all is remembered. If that is the case, is it possible for later-evolved 4D entities from other civilizations (millions of years in 4D) to incarnate and/or arrive here and still not infringe on free will? At what point would this be possible? My guess is as soon as the transition is complete, which would be many generations from now. I am assuming that the later-4D entities coming here would be aware of any possible infringement.

if STO 4D then they'd be all about open telepathic communication, social memory complex's and going forth and being active in the galactic community in service.

woah, woah.. These are different concepts. Carla says it'd take a million years of 4D existence to form a social memory complex. Further, abilities are learned over time, even in 4D.

they know each others minds and they're experience however advanced would be shared in much the same way 4d entities would benefit from 5d and 6d teachers. if they were STS 4D then they'd be all about the infringing and lording their experience over less evolved entities.

The context of my question was mainly to do with incarnated older-4D souls here. What is the development of 4D civilizations entail across the 4D subdensities. The teacher doesn't teach if the student isn't ready.

i must have misinterpreted what you were trying to say about the chart reflecting non harvestability. i gather by looking at the chart that it refers to densities and their sub densities. do you think a 3D entity needs to move through all the subdensities of 3D before they actually work on true green ray and harvest to 4D? my initial view was that the subdensities were analogous to the chakras of a 3D entity but i see now that is one interpretation and not necessarily correct.

if an adept transmutes planetary consciousness, perhaps they are interacting directly with the racial or planetary mind and making changes there. doesnt necessarily entail 4D work but maybe it has some bleed through effect on 4D consciousness

lol i didnt notice the little negative sign next to your 4D. my bad.

[Tenet Nosce]

This is a guess, but what if the range were 49 sub-sub-densities?

Then, if we were to further assume humanity is now focused on the 7th sub-sub-density of 4th sub-density of 3rd density, then it would now be possible to access up to the 3rd sub-sub-density of 1st sub-density of 4th density.

Why do you think this follows from the assumption?

If this were the case, then 4D would have become accessible at the 4th sub-sub-density of 4th sub-density of 3D.

I don't see how this could be?

The assumption is that the group mind unit spans a full density (7 sub-densities and 49 sub-sub-densities) of consciousness.

Therefore: When the focal point of the group mind hits mid-4th-sub-density, the outer fringes would begin to access the next density.

Therefore: IF humanity is now on the fringe of the 5th sub-density (of 3D), then the outer fringes are half-way through the 1st sub-density (of 4D).

  bell-curve-normal-distributiondensities.jpg (Size: 69.62 KB / Downloads: 406)

(Click to enlarge)

If true, it would explain these quotes a bit more:

40.8 Questioner: Then what will be the time of transition on this planet from third to fourth-density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is difficult to estimate due to the uncharacteristic anomalies of this transition. There are at this space/time nexus beings incarnate which have begun fourth-density work. However, the third-density climate of planetary consciousness is retarding the process. At this particular nexus the possibility/probability vortices indicate somewhere between 100 and 700 of your years as transition period. This cannot be accurate due to the volatility of your peoples at this space/time.

Beings would have been able to start fourth-density work at mid-fourth-sub-density of 3D.

Ra: I am Ra. The first harbingers of this were approximately forty-five of your years ago, the energies vibrating more intensely through the forty-year period preceding the final movement of vibratory matter, shall we say, through the quantum leap, as you would call it.

40.11 Questioner: Starting then, forty-five years ago, and taking the entire increase of vibration that we will experience in this density change, approximately what percentage through this increase in vibrational change are we right now?

This suggests that humanity hit the 4th sub-sub-density of the 4th sub-density of 3D circa 1935. 4D work has been possible for the "fringe dwellers" since that time.

It's conjecture- but it has more explanatory power regarding this part of the material. There is a lot of confusion around this, as you know.

Also this:

17.1 Questioner: Thank you very much. I would like to say again that we consider it a great honor, privilege, and duty to be able to do this particular work. I would like to reiterate that some of my questions may seem irrelevant at times, but I am trying to ask them in a manner so as to gain a foothold into the application of the Law of One.

We are now in the fourth density. Will the effects of the fourth density increase in the next thirty years? Will we see more changes in our environment and our effect upon our environment?

Ra: I am Ra. The fourth density is a vibrational spectrum. Your time/space continuum has spiraled your planetary sphere and your, what we would call galaxy, what you call star, into this vibration. This will cause the planetary sphere itself to electromagnetically realign its vortices of reception of the in-streaming of cosmic forces expressing themselves as vibrational webs so that the Earth will thus be fourth-density magnetized, as you might call it.

This is going to occur with some inconvenience, as we have said before, due to the energies of the thought-forms of your peoples which disturb the orderly constructs of energy pattern within your Earth spirals of energy which increases entropy and unusable heat. This will cause your planetary sphere to have some ruptures in its outer garment while making itself appropriately magnetized for fourth density. This is the planetary adjustment.

You will find a sharp increase in the number of people, as you call mind/body/spirit complexes, whose vibrational potentials include the potential for fourth-vibrational distortions. Thus, there will seem to be, shall we say, a new breed. These are those incarnating for fourth-density work.

There will also be a sharp increase in the short run of negatively oriented or polarized mind/body/spirit complexes and social complexes, due to the polarizing conditions of the sharp delineation between fourth-density characteristics and third-density self-service orientation.

Those who remain in fourth density upon this plane will be of the so-called positive orientation. Many will come from elsewhere, for it would appear that with all of the best efforts of the Confederation, which includes those from your peoples’ inner planes, inner civilizations, and those from other dimensions, the harvest will still be much less than that which this planetary sphere is capable of comfortably supporting in service.

This would mean the planetary sphere achieved 4D circa 1935. 4D work could begin to be done by the inhabitants then. Therefore, the "inconveniences" will continue until humanity is focused in the 5th sub-density of 3D, presuming that no more polarization would be possible on the negative path after that.

Therefore IF, IF, IF all this is true... THEN there still is a transition occurring right about now, in 2012/2013. It is the transition from dominant 4SD to dominant 5SD of 3D.

[Parsons]

Also when Ra says "You will find a sharp increase in the number of people, as you call mind/body/spirit complexes, whose vibrational potentials include the potential for fourth-vibrational distortions." I take that to be an overt thing (i.e. not yet happened) which is in disagreement with what a lot of people have been saying. Basically, yet another thing to reinforce the notion of a longer transition.

Actually, it must be subjective because I see this as a further confirmation of an abrupt transition. :p

[Aaron]

the work of the adept which goes beyond harvestability of green ray and works on blue, indigo (intelligent infinity) and violet (intelligent energy) has the purpose of transmuting planetary harvestability and consciousness....so im gonna say yes

I think that you might have swapped intelligent infinity and intelligent energy around in this instance.

Here's both:

...

Having accepted that an harvestable or nearly harvestable entity will be working from this green-ray springboard one may then posit that the experiences in the remainder of the incarnation will be focused upon activation of the primary blue ray of freely given communication, of indigo ray, that of freely shared intelligent energy, and if possible, moving through this gateway, the penetration of violet-ray intelligent infinity. This may be seen to be manifested by a sense of the consecrate or hallowed nature of everyday creations and activities.

...

And intelligent energy:

...

We will use this instrument as example. The portions of its ailment, as you call this distortion complex, that can be perfected in balance are due primarily to a blockage of the indigo-ray or pineal energy center. This center receives the intelligent energy from all sources lawful within the one Creation; that is, lawful in this third-density distortion or illusion. If there is no blockage, these energies pour or stream down into the mind/body/spirit complex perfecting moment by moment the individual’s body complex.

...

58.19 Questioner: There are many people who are now bending metal, doing other things like that by mentally requesting this happen. What is happening in that case?

Ra: I am Ra. That which occurs in this instance may be likened to the influence of the second spiral of light in a pyramid being used by an entity. As this second spiral ends at the apex, the light may be likened unto a laser beam in the metaphysical sense and when intelligently directed may cause bending not only in the pyramid, but this is the type of energy which is tapped into by those capable of this focusing of the upward spiraling light. This is made possible through contact in indigo ray with intelligent energy.

...

The indigo ray, though precious, is that ray worked upon only by the adept, as you would call it. It is the gateway to intelligent infinity bringing intelligent energy through.

...

And intelligent infinity:

...

The indigo-ray transfer is extremely rare among your people. This is the sacramental portion of the body complex whereby contact may be made through the violet ray with intelligent infinity.

...

...

Again, the violet emanation is, in this context, a resource from which, through indigo, intelligent infinity may be contacted.

...

And I think there are several more instances where violet ray is mentioned as the ray which is connected to intelligent infinity.

[spero]

thanks for clearing that up Aaron
dont know why i thought those were the other way around lol.

The probability curve overlay on subdensities is a really interesting way of looking at things Tenet Nosce.

[zenmaster]

i must have misinterpreted what you were trying to say about the chart reflecting non harvestability. i gather by looking at the chart that it refers to densities and their sub densities. do you think a 3D entity needs to move through all the subdensities of 3D before they actually work on true green ray and harvest to 4D?

I think the 7th subdensity is where there is the most appreciation for green-ray here. Before then there is more circumstantial grasping upwards rather than abiding.

my initial view was that the subdensities were analogous to the chakras of a 3D entity but i see now that is one interpretation and not necessarily correct.

That was my initial view as well. But then I saw how the vibrations of the subdensities also stratify and organize the local patterns of mind. And others familiar with the Ra Material pointed out the similarity with Spiral Dynamics vMemes.

if an adept transmutes planetary consciousness, perhaps they are interacting directly with the racial or planetary mind and making changes there. doesnt necessarily entail 4D work but maybe it has some bleed through effect on 4D consciousness

A 3D adept presumably can only effect 3D the plane which includes the 3D mind. Spiritually, there would seem to be no limit however.

lol i didnt notice the little negative sign next to your 4D. my bad.

That was a hyphen.

[Parsons]

TN, I applaud your efforts to make a visual representation of this. It would be very nice to expand on this and make each section to scale with how many years each density is (ie 75k for 3D, 30mil for 4D). I'm pretty sure you would need to have the 3D section as magnify/blowup section otherwise it would be a tiny blip compared to the other densities. This would make it easier to refer back to it for seasoned LOO'ers who don't have every density length memorized or for newcomers.

Or maybe I should get off my lazy ass and figure out how to do it myself. :p

[Tenet Nosce]

TN, I applaud your efforts to make a visual representation of this.

Thanks! I was inspired by the famous picture of the milky way with the "You Are Here" notation.

It would be very nice to expand on this and make each section to scale with how many years each density is (ie 75k for 3D, 30mil for 4D).

Yes, I agree. Although upon my initial pondering of how to do this, I realized that the time-span of each density, sub-density, sub-sub-density, etc. is not fixed, but relative to how quickly the catalyst at hand is employed.

I'm pretty sure you would need to have the 3D section as magnify/blowup section otherwise it would be a tiny blip compared to the other densities. This would make it easier to refer back to it for seasoned LOO'ers who don't have every density length memorized or for newcomers.

Or maybe I should get off my lazy ass and figure out how to do it myself. :p

I'm working on it! But don't let that stop you.

[Tenet Nosce]

[Aaron]

That's a pretty picture, Tenet.

I'm curious... Where did the general idea come from that earth or the human population is within the 4th subdensity of third density?

We know from Ra that the earth vibrates 4th density at this time, and that the consciousness level of the planet is above the consciousness level of the human population. But Ra never makes mention of subdensities. I think that those were an idea that started here on Bring4th. And due to the fractal nature of creation, it totally makes sense. Maybe Q'uo mentioned them?

Is it from Spiral Dynamics and the memes that we are getting this idea of being at the 4th subdensity? And is it the planet or the population that's there?

[Tenet Nosce]

That's a pretty picture, Tenet. Smile

Thanks!

I'm curious... Where did the general idea come from that earth or the human population is within the 4th subdensity of third density?

It's from a previous discussion with zenmaster in another thread. Just read through the whole thread, you will see where it came from.

It's all conjecture, as I have been pointing out. Could put the eye anywhere. Or change the size of it. Or change the direction. Just playing around here.

We know from Ra that the earth vibrates 4th density at this time, and that the consciousness level of the planet is above the consciousness level of the human population.

Yes, I brought up these points above, and attempted to apply the model to them.

But Ra never makes mention of subdensities.

They do; But they don't say a lot.

9.14 Questioner: Did any of these second-density entities have shapes like ours—two arms, two legs, head, and walk upright on two feet?

Ra: I am Ra. The two higher of the sub-vibrational levels of second-density beings had the configuration of the biped, as you mentioned. However, the erectile movement which you experience was not totally effected in these beings who were tending towards the leaning forward, barely leaving the quadrupedal position.

16.51 Questioner: Could you define the word density as we have been using it?

Ra: I am Ra. The term density is a, what you would call, mathematical one. The closest analogy is that of music, whereby after seven notes on your western type of scale, if you will, the eighth note begins a new octave. Within your great octave of existence which we share with you, there are seven octaves or densities. Within each density there are seven sub-densities. Within each sub-density, seven sub-sub-densities, and so on infinitely.

16.53 Questioner: I understand that each density has seven sub-densities which again have seven sub-densities and so on. This is expanding at a really large rate as each is increased by powers of seven. Does this mean that in any density level anything that you can think of is happening?

Ra: I am Ra. From your confusion we select the concept with which you struggle, that being infinity/opportunity. You may consider any possibility/probability complex as having an existence.

17.12 Questioner: Did you say the fifth vibration was that of love?

Ra: I am Ra. I have made an error. The fourth-density being is that which we intended to say, the highest level of fourth density going into the fifth. This entity could have gone on to the fifth but chose instead to return to third for this particular mission. This entity was of the highest sub-octave of the vibration of love. This is fourth density.

90.25 Questioner: What were these?

Ra: I am Ra. One more; that is, the permeability of the densities so that there may be communication from density to density and from plane to plane or sub-density to sub-density.

Is it from Spiral Dynamics and the memes that we are getting this idea of being at the 4th subdensity?

Yes, in part. Taking a look at it I must admit that we can't possibly be in the highest expression of third density. I see at least two, possibly three more stages of evolution that are possible.

And is it the planet or the population that's there?

That's what I was ruminating about earlier... but I put the eye to indicate where the population is. The planet ostensibly entered 4D circa 1935.

An idea forming in my mind is that first human of the population accessed 4D at the same moment with the planet. If it follows a standard bell curve distribution as proposed above, then we have slowly worked up from 0% to 0.13% of the population since then.

Actually, depending on the precise positioning in the cusp of the transition that could easily range from, say 0.2% to 2% at the exact moment. That's in reality a whole order of magnitude of change that occurs in a very short time, from our perspective. That is rather quick in consideration of ability to affect the group mind.

By the time the "masses" move through the 5th subdensity of 3D, 2.27% of the population would have access to 4D. That would be enough to start making some serious transformations.

[zenmaster]

Yes, in part. Taking a look at it I must admit that we can't possibly be in the highest expression of third density.

Consider the beings from Sirius who can read memories like watching a movie and have already formed a social memory complex. And they can levitate too.

[Tenet Nosce]

Yes, in part. Taking a look at it I must admit that we can't possibly be in the highest expression of third density.

Consider the beings from Sirius who can read memories like watching a movie and have already formed a social memory complex. And they can levitate too.

Never heard of them. What are your sources on that?

[zenmaster]

Yes, in part. Taking a look at it I must admit that we can't possibly be in the highest expression of third density.

Consider the beings from Sirius who can read memories like watching a movie and have already formed a social memory complex. And they can levitate too.

Never heard of them. What are your sources on that?

Charles Hickson's report of his experience and the Ra Material.

[Tenet Nosce]

Yes, in part. Taking a look at it I must admit that we can't possibly be in the highest expression of third density.

Consider the beings from Sirius who can read memories like watching a movie and have already formed a social memory complex. And they can levitate too.

Never heard of them. What are your sources on that?

Charles Hickson's report of his experience and the Ra Material.

I had totally forgotten that was in the material... but yeah that's WAY beyond us for sure.

[Spaced]

Yes, in part. Taking a look at it I must admit that we can't possibly be in the highest expression of third density.

Consider the beings from Sirius who can read memories like watching a movie and have already formed a social memory complex. And they can levitate too.

Never heard of them. What are your sources on that?

Charles Hickson's report of his experience and the Ra Material.

I had totally forgotten that was in the material... but yeah that's WAY beyond us for sure.

It's a trade-off, we can walk around and use physical senses whereas they are basically in a meditative state at all times, having evolved from trees.

At least that's my understanding of that bit of the Ra material.