Reincarnation: Is there an advantage for non-believers?

[Aureus]

To me, dogmatic belief is strictly an expression of yellow-ray, so technically it is kind of a stepping stone of third density experience to transcend the opinions of social groups. (Be they rooted in fear etc)

Also, at every moment lies an oppurtunity to change, to let the old die and the new grow. I would much rather have chosen an incarnation in a western, christian home over a life in the "third world".

[zenmaster]

To me, dogmatic belief is strictly an expression of yellow-ray, so technically it is kind of a stepping stone of third density experience to transcend the opinions of social groups. (Be they rooted in fear etc)

It makes a great deal of sense as a stepping stone. The provided pattern is to follow a code which yields reward to the faithful. Guidelines are an essential and healthy lesson because it introduces structure, discipline, conformance, authority within a cooperative group environment or something that "engenders transcendent purpose, impulse control; creates abstract causes, principles, explanations, and orders, while imposing authority-driven command structures."

The prior subdensity was all about asserting the self as an individual, being rebellious and learning about power - so you see the natural progression. The subdensities alternate between focus on self and focus on group. And so do the densities.

[Aureus]

It did not consider the lessons that come with it.. Just as something the entity starts balancing as it opens green ray.

[Tenet Nosce]

But denial of reincarnation is not in any case necessary in order to reap the so-called benefits of a dogmatic religious belief system. There is no shortage of dogma among Hindus or Buddhists to select from.

Even if the lower ego-self has not attained the ability to have any "say" in the planning of an incarnation, the Higher Self still does. The Higher Self is still programming the incarnation to have a belief system that is directly contrary to how things actually operate in the larger life.

I can see how religion, in general, might be useful if it is used to engender a sense of wonder and awe, and an acknowledgement of "something bigger" insofar as that can be recognized. But again- all of this is still possible with a belief in the transmigration of souls.

I'm still left wondering if there is some specific advantage to the denial of reincarnation, or if it is simply another inevitable corruption of spiritual teachings.

I'll put it this way... on other 4SD/3D planets would we suppose they also have such a large swath of the population that denies these basic understandings of the larger life? Or is this something else that is unique to the earth experience?

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The subdensities alternate between focus on self and focus on group.

I would assume odd-numbered focus on the individual, and even-numbered on the group...? If so... it is curious that there are 4 densities/subdensities that are individual-focused and only 3 that are group focused.

[caycegal]

If reincarnation exists, then why would all these souls keep deciding to come back as Christians that don't believe in reincarnation?

Here's a story I'm making up to answer your question.

Souls incarnated or developed or transferred to 3d planet Earth. They became lost and experienced much suffering. Various souls incarnated at various times to try to help them find a way to a better experience. Jesus was one of these. The people at that time were deeply moved by his message, which they understood only a little. A structured church developed, which spread the message until everyone on earth had been exposed to it. However, few actually understood the message. The church kept simplifying the message in order both to broaden the appeal and to maintain the power of those in control.

The influence of Christianity kept growing because there were still kernels of beauty and truth in the teachings, despite the flaws in the transmission of the story.

Gradually, once the message had been communicated to all on the planet, various entities began to grow in understanding it, the structure placed on the teachings began to crumble as the understanding of the actual teachings themselves began to grow.

That brings us to now.

Why did all this happen this way? Because that's the way we all wrote this story.

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P.S. People don't necessarily keep coming back as Christians, do they? They could come back as anything.

[Tenet Nosce]

Why did all this happen this way? Because that's the way we all wrote this story.

---

P.S. People don't necessarily keep coming back as Christians, do they? They could come back as anything.

Yes, but the notion that reincarnation doesn't exist has little, if anything, to do with the teachings of Jesus.

---

I still don't seem to be communicating the question clearly enough. There is no "attack" here on Christianity.

Anyway, forget about Christianity. Let's just talk reincarnation.

Why would an entity program an incarnation to have a belief that this is their "one and only" shot at physical life? Is there some advantage to this?

[Spaced]

I think there is advantage to every limiting factor we place in front of ourselves, the advantage of being able to overcome them and come through it all stronger.

[caycegal]

Why would an entity program an incarnation to have a belief that this is their "one and only" shot at physical life? Is there some advantage to this?

I didn't think you were attacking anything I assumed you were just a friendly person.

Don't really have an answer to any questions that start with "why."

I choose to believe in reincarnation because it makes more sense to me and it just "feels" right. Some people claim they have vivid memories of previous lives. I have a feeling I might have some memories, but they are not vivid.

To take another stab at your question, people choose lives that give them "contrast" or "catalyst" or "polarity" which helps them move forward. Not lives which give them ease, which encourages them to dally and pick flowers.

[Tenet Nosce]

I didn't think you were attacking anything I assumed you were just a friendly person.

Oh sorry, I wasn't really meaning to insinuate that you personally were. Just commenting on the thread as a whole. That's why I separated the second part of my response with the line. And to point out that I felt the question needed reframing.

To take another stab at your question, people choose lives that give them "contrast" or "catalyst" or "polarity" which helps them move forward. Not lives which give them ease, which encourages them to dally and pick flowers.

Yes, that's what I am wondering about. I get a sense that in cultures which -do- believe in reincarnation, there could maybe be a propensity to "get less done" spiritually-speaking. (The wheel is spinning round and round, and since most of us are nowhere near getting off of it, why bother?)

But on the other hand, I can also see how -not- believing in reincarnation can serve as an impediment. The "straight line" approach of the Abrahamic religions sort of tends toward a (somewhat ironically) materialistic and ego-centered view. (Since this is our only time here, we should strive for comfort and to "make the best of it" while we await Salvation.)

One motion is as a circle. The other as a line. The Reality is a spiral.

I suppose every situation is unique, and the belief in reincarnation is just one parameter among many to select from. Though this does underscore the idea that it is not in any case necessary to have the philosophy correct in order to spiritually evolve as an individual.

Yet... would we not still benefit- as a collective- from having the correct image in mind? It still seems to me that much of the "conflict" in the population is due to this clash of worldviews, as represented by the circle and the line.

[Horuseus]

Why would an entity program an incarnation to have a belief that this is their "one and only" shot at physical life? Is there some advantage to this?

Are you questioning the Infinity of creation?

[Monica]

Yes, but the notion that reincarnation doesn't exist has little, if anything, to do with the teachings of Jesus.

The Gnostics make a good case for the idea that belief in reincarnation was standard back in the time of Jesus:

http://www.ocoy.org/original-christianit...carnation/

Most biblical references to reincarnation were erased from the texts back in 300 AD by Emperor Constantine, when they decided which books to include and which to leave out. There are many other 'scriptures' that openly talk about reincarnation, but they weren't included in the 'official' bible. Remember, the bible isn't one book, but a collection. Humans decided which books went into the collection.

Despite their best efforts, some references still remain:

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarna...verses.htm

Presumably, the reason they erased the references and established a '1- life' doctrine was to better control the populace; the idea being that if people knew they were eternal beings, they wouldn't be so susceptible to control and fear tactics. "Obey us or burn in hell!"

I still don't seem to be communicating the question clearly enough. There is no "attack" here on Christianity.

You didn't come across that way at all!

Anyway, forget about Christianity. Let's just talk reincarnation.

Why would an entity program an incarnation to have a belief that this is their "one and only" shot at physical life? Is there some advantage to this?

What other religions besides the Abrahamic ones don't believe in reincarnation? Any?

If none or few, then that is a clue, knowing what we know about the origins of the Abrahamic religions.

But getting back to your question, from the entity's perspective, I would guess that it has less to do with reincarnation per se, and more to do with choosing to incarnate into a very restricted lifestyle, required to answer to authorities, with fear at the base of it all.

So why would someone do that? Maybe (just guessing here) because they failed to polarize sufficiently for harvest during the first 73,000 years of this cycle, so they chose to raise the stakes during the last 2000 years.

They backed themselves into a corner. They couldn't manage to learn love on their own in 73,000 years...and now they would be forced to choose between 2 extremes, made into almost a caricature by fundamentalist religions.

Some of them, however, are Wanderers, incarnated into a religion to help reach people from the inside. They sacrificed knowledge of the truth, just as we all did when we agreed to be veiled.

All 3 Abrahamic religions contain the opportunity for polarizing in both directions; all 3 offer the full spectrum, from blatant STS all the way to lofty STO ideals and philosophies, with sitting on the fence and just doing as they're told, in the middle. It's all there, and depictions of the archetypes are all there too, just as in Tarot, Astrology, etc. Their holy books can be oracles. It's all laid out for them. The task is to choose.

Knowledge of reincarnation is among the nuggets of gold hidden in the teachings, but very few find it. For most, it isn't necessary to find it, and would even be counterproductive, because such knowledge is too advanced for an entity who has very little time to polarize. They didn't want to risk misinterpreting reincarnation into thinking "I have plenty of time...I'll polarize next lifetime." They couldn't afford that risk, so they locked themselves into the belief that "this is my only shot at it" which may even be true, in light of this being the time of the Harvest.

They chose to reincarnate into a belief system that this is their only life, because, from the perspective of it being their last chance to polarize this cycle, it IS their only life!

[Tenet Nosce]

Are you questioning the Infinity of creation?

What do you mean by "questioning"?

[Oldern]

Why do I get the feeling that you did not really think this one through?

To me, it is quite obvious (after careful consideration of the matter, though) that both those that believe in reincarnation and those that are strictly materialist (or simply subscribe to the one life, then eternal hell/heaven idea) can, at the end of their life, realize that no matter the belief, they did things they should not have done, or did not do things that they should have. The realization that our life in the moment, in the now is what really counts ignores the mere idea of reincarnation.

Even the concept of reincarnation can be faulty when placed outside of the usual box: without linear time, it is not even reincarnation, but more like every life having "similar themes" concurrently running beside the "current" experience, and their connection allows certain energy transfers such as "inspirations", for example.

[zenmaster]

The subdensities alternate between focus on self and focus on group.

I would assume odd-numbered focus on the individual, and even-numbered on the group...?

Yes.

If so... it is curious that there are 4 densities/subdensities that are individual-focused and only 3 that are group focused.

They have a wave-like nature (your 5th SD is over the hump). Also, within in the octave, the 1st subdensity of the new is the 8th of the last.

[caycegal]

The subdensities alternate between focus on self and focus on group.

[/quote]

Wow, I have been ignoring "sub-densities." Do you think they are in important concept in the Ra material?

Assuming I am in 3D right now, do I also need to think about what subdensity level of 3D it is? Why in the world do we even need that many levels to think about?

[zenmaster]

No one suggested a need?

[Oceania]

Caycegal, just be a good person and forget about thinking.

[caycegal]

Caycegal, just be a good person and forget about thinking.

Good explanation! I like it. Monkey-mind, be still!

[AnthroHeart]

Well, before I knew about chakras and energy work life was easier. It's a bit more challenging when it's so easy to get overcharged. I think if I were just a simple Christian life would be easier. I live with a nearly constant buzzing of energy through me that's difficult to ground.

[Goldenratio]

2 ways of dealing with it

Find a number of ways that center and ground yourself
or
Find a way to center and balance yourself with the excess energy

Or both, in fact I recommend both.

[Taco]

nevermind (edit)

[Oceania]

Gemini how are your lower chakras?

[Monica]

I just thought of another aspect to this. Christianity teaches that 'salvation' (going to 'heaven') occurs by accepting Jesus. Some version of Christianity, like Catholicism, also emphasize being 'good' (not 'sinning') but even so, salvation is only possible because Jesus died on the cross and rose again. The Evangelicals believe 'good works' have zero bearing on salvation, and all the person has to do is believe in Jesus.

So the amount of importance to Jesus' role in their salvation varies depending on the denomination, but in forms of Christianity, across the board, the key to it even being possible at all is that Jesus died on the cross.

To be presented with the idea that 'salvation' (graduation to 4D, in our terms) is based not on belief in Jesus, but overall polarity or karma, is very scary to them. It seems to conflict with their beliefs because their beliefs allow them to relax and just 'trust in the Lord' whereas if they believed in reincarnation, they'd have to accept responsibility for themselves. The whole point to evangelical Christian belief is that they aren't responsible for themselves; God is responsible. Even with Catholicism, they are only partially responsible. So it's very scary to them to think that they might have to take on that responsibility.

[caycegal]

I just thought of another aspect to this. Christianity teaches that 'salvation' (going to 'heaven') occurs by accepting Jesus. Some version of Christianity, like Catholicism, also emphasize being 'good' (not 'sinning') but even so, salvation is only possible because Jesus died on the cross and rose again. The Evangelicals believe 'good works' have zero bearing on salvation, and all the person has to do is believe in Jesus.

So the amount of importance to Jesus' role in their salvation varies depending on the denomination, but in forms of Christianity, across the board, the key to it even being possible at all is that Jesus died on the cross.

To be presented with the idea that 'salvation' (graduation to 4D, in our terms) is based not on belief in Jesus, but overall polarity or karma, is very scary to them. It seems to conflict with their beliefs because their beliefs allow them to relax and just 'trust in the Lord' whereas if they believed in reincarnation, they'd have to accept responsibility for themselves. The whole point to evangelical Christian belief is that they aren't responsible for themselves; God is responsible. Even with Catholicism, they are only partially responsible. So it's very scary to them to think that they might have to take on that responsibility.

Just want to add that there are all kinds of "Christians." For example, Edgar Cayce was a Christian. He read the Bible all the way through once for every year of his life. He taught Sunday School all his life. He called Jesus "The Master."

Unity Church considers itself a Christian Church. They believe that:

1. There is only one Presence and one Power active as the universe and as my life, God the Good.

2. Our essence is of God; therefore, we are inherently good. This God essence, called the Christ, was fully expressed in Jesus.

3. We are co-creators with God, creating reality through thoughts held in mind.

4. Through prayer and meditation, we align our heart-mind with God. Denials and affirmations are tools we use.

5. Through thoughts, words and actions, we live the Truth we know.

I personally believe there is a secret church of the Christ, consisting of those who have been called in their hearts to be members. They do not need to advertise themselves, and may or may not belong to an outer church.

[Monica]

Just want to add that there are all kinds of "Christians." For example, Edgar Cayce was a Christian. He read the Bible all the way through once for every year of his life. He taught Sunday School all his life. He called Jesus "The Master."

You are absolutely right! I shouldn't have oversimplified.

Cayce was quite the Christian! I remember telling my mom and sister about him, excitedly reassuring them that reading Cayce was ok since he was a Christian. He helped me bridge the gap between Christianity and New Age stuff. But my sister, and Evangelical, said he was 'demonic' and 'strayed away from Christianity.' Incredulous, I asked her why and she said "he believed in reincarnation!" and said "that is a satanic belief."

My brother, a Mormon, said the same thing. My mom, a Catholic, wasn't open to reading Cayce, but at least she didn't freak out and call him satanic!

[Oceania]

Christians don't know their own material lol. Christianity is all about reincarnation.

[Monica]

Christians don't know their own material lol. Christianity is all about reincarnation.

Interesting idea. Can you elaborate?

[caycegal]

Just want to add that there are all kinds of "Christians." For example, Edgar Cayce was a Christian. He read the Bible all the way through once for every year of his life. He taught Sunday School all his life. He called Jesus "The Master."

You are absolutely right! I shouldn't have oversimplified.

Cayce was quite the Christian! I remember telling my mom and sister about him, excitedly reassuring them that reading Cayce was ok since he was a Christian. He helped me bridge the gap between Christianity and New Age stuff. But my sister, and Evangelical, said he was 'demonic' and 'strayed away from Christianity.' Incredulous, I asked her why and she said "he believed in reincarnation!" and said "that is a satanic belief."

My brother, a Mormon, said the same thing. My mom, a Catholic, wasn't open to reading Cayce, but at least she didn't freak out and call him satanic!

I also have people in my family that I love who are very into a dogmatic form of "Christianity." I don't believe Jesus intended to found a religion, but to lead humanity into a new stage of development. I see us growing into the teachings we have from him. The primary one is to love my brother and sister as much as myself.

I make these comments to you because you and I share some of the same ideas. As far as the family members I mentioned, I figure it's not my place to change their opinion about dogma. As long as they are doing their best to honor and help their neighbor (following the teachings of the Christ) I don't worry too much about their dogma.

That doesn't stop me from doing everything I know how to support non-dogmatic groups, and especially those who respect EVERYONE, regardless of sexual orientation, gender, color, etc.

Thanks for the great conversation!

[Oceania]

Christians don't know their own material lol. Christianity is all about reincarnation.

Interesting idea. Can you elaborate?

Christianity used to include reincarnation. They had that removed along with some other stuff. it also seems lots of Christians don't even read the bibble for if they did they should be horrified by what's in there.

[Monica]

Christianity used to include reincarnation. They had that removed along with some other stuff.

Oh. I thought you meant the current version. Yeah, they did remove a lot of references. The other books that got left out of the official bible still have those references. (Gospel of Thomas, etc.)

it also seems lots of Christians don't even read the bibble for if they did they should be horrified by what's in there.

What's even more horrifying is that many DO know what's in there and they accept it!

When I was campaigning for Ron Paul, a Christian pastor told me "I like Ron Paul except for his foreign policy." I said "Why don't you like it? He promotes peace! He wants to end the wars!" Then the pastor said, and I quote: "God likes war. The bible is full of wars!" :exclamation:

Now, whenever any evangelical or JW Christian asks me why I don't accept the bible, I say "Because it has such low morals. I'd have to lower my standards of human decency to accept it and I'm not willing to do that."

That always freaks them out.