our medical system treats symptoms

[Monica]

But you miss my point. If they knew their disposition, they would know how to seek the treatment. It's not just a willingness to do something, there is desire, and a certain faith involved.

True. Although, I think most people start out in the medical model and only change paradigms out of desperation, after conventional medicine failed them. Myself included. I don't think I've ever met anyone who is into alternative health, who just 'chose' it. They did it as a last resort. (Aside from some young people who were raised that way.)

Am I still missing your point? Was there something else I'm not getting about what you said?

[zenmaster]

But you miss my point. If they knew their disposition, they would know how to seek the treatment. It's not just a willingness to do something, there is desire, and a certain faith involved.

True. Although, I think most people start out in the medical model and only change paradigms out of desperation, after conventional medicine failed them. Myself included. I don't think I've ever met anyone who is into alternative health, who just 'chose' it. They did it as a last resort. (Aside from some young people who were raised that way.)

Am I still missing your point? Was there something else I'm not getting about what you said?

I think the lack of opportunity for "alternative" healthcare choices is a matter for deeper consideration than what has been provided. The buried-by-big-pharma, or any finger pointing just can't cut it. It's either finger-pointing at repression, or hand-waving about some vague idea of effective treatment, intuited to be more effective than conventional treatment and which must be fanatically exaggerated to compensate for its perceived lack of attention.

Just because mostly cherry-picked, anecdotal evidence of effective alternative treatments have been demonstrated, in some circumstances, doesn't make it a reliable alternative for something so important as addressing one's health.

[Monica]

I think the lack of opportunity for "alternative" healthcare choices is a matter for deeper consideration than what has been provided. The buried-by-big-pharma, or any finger pointing just can't cut it. It's either finger-pointing at repression, or hand-waving about some vague idea of effective treatment, intuited to be more effective than conventional treatment and which must be fanatically exaggerated to compensate for its perceived lack of attention.

Just because mostly cherry-picked, anecdotal evidence of effective alternative treatments have been demonstrated, in some circumstances, doesn't make it a reliable alternative for something so important as addressing one's health.

We are operating under different paradigms. I don't really believe in the concept of treatment at all.

[zenmaster]

I think the lack of opportunity for "alternative" healthcare choices is a matter for deeper consideration than what has been provided. The buried-by-big-pharma, or any finger pointing just can't cut it. It's either finger-pointing at repression, or hand-waving about some vague idea of effective treatment, intuited to be more effective than conventional treatment and which must be fanatically exaggerated to compensate for its perceived lack of attention.

Just because mostly cherry-picked, anecdotal evidence of effective alternative treatments have been demonstrated, in some circumstances, doesn't make it a reliable alternative for something so important as addressing one's health.

We are operating under different paradigms. I don't really believe in the concept of treatment at all.

Ah yes, insert whatever notional word you want which means "doing something to aid in healing".

[Adonai One]

If people didn't think about controlling others through the dependency medicine often entails, we wouldn't have the mess we have in today's medical industry.

[Monica]

Ah yes, insert whatever notional word you want which means "doing something to aid in healing".

It's not the term that's important, but the meaning. Treatment refers to someone doing something TO another person, to 'fix' them. This is appropriate for an emergency, acute condition, when the patient is too incapacitated to help themselves.

But in a degenerative disease situation, the dis-ease itself is catalyst, and if the person doesn't deal with the catalyst, it doesn't matter what treatment is done 'to' them; healing will not ensue unless/until they address the catalyst.

Holistic therapies, for the most part, work with the person, to assist them in addressing the catalyst; whereas, in general, allopathic methods tend to address the superficial symptoms and leave the underlying catalyst unaddressed. Hence, nothing is really accomplished..

[zenmaster]

You've merely found and identified with a source which has associated the term treatment with doing something to another to FIX them. Thus the concept stuck, like a robotic patterning.

[Monica]

You've merely found and identified with a source which has associated the term treatment with doing something to another to FIX them. Thus the concept stuck, like a robotic patterning.

Is that not what the entire medical establishment is all about? How is it not?

I find it amusing that you accuse me of robotic programming; me, who seeks and thinks outside the box, and has traversed a long journey of healing which you know nothing about; while you defend the mainstream, which depends totally on robotic programming to survive. You seem to have your mind made up that alternative therapies are bogus and anyone pursuing them is brainwashed. (Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.)

I can only conclude that you've never actually gotten to know people who've been healed via alternative therapies, because if you had, you'd know that many of them have been seeking for a great many years, and have tried a great many things, and view each one as another piece of the puzzle, with emotional and spiritual components playing a very important role. The idea that such a one would trust a single source, as though authoritative like the mainstream medical system, is laughable.

Yes, it does happen, yes there are people who latch onto this or that and think a single remedy will fix them. But those people are still living in the allopathic mindset, and aren't the ones I'm referring to at all.

Please explain to me how you view the term treatment.

[norral]

the prime example to me is the cancer industry the whole concept of chemo therapy is horrific. so i am going to take a poisonous substance which damages my organs on the off chance that it helps. chemo sucks ha ha . and it doesnt work. but it sure costs a lot now doesnt it.
why not large doses of intravenous vitamin c and medicinal mushrooms and changing the diet. the worst vitamin c will do to you is give u diarhea . i can live with that. i mean gerson healed a lot of cancer patients who came to him after giving up hope. he was a true healer
or lets take glucosomine. which has helped so many people on the planet it is not funny. and will a doctor recommend that . no . they will give u a pain killer but they will not recommend glucosomine. when i was having knee problems i didnt even bother to go to a doctor. i just took glucosomine and some other supplements and it took about 2 months voila problem gone. nothing vague about that. or my friend at work who had a shoulder problem. the doctor told him he couldnt give him any more cortisone shots because it would damage the joint. i turned him on to glucosomine and he did it. and he had a serious problem he had arthritis in the joint. 3 months later i see him hes smiling and moving his arm back and forth pain gone. and i have a friend for life . nothing vague about that.
or the reishi mushrooms that have helped my grandkids strengthen their immune system so they hardly ever have some of the problems they were having. or the countless other stuff that occurs each day. now my knee might be anecdotal but i wasnt waiting around for a study to prove that gluco worked. and neither was my friend with his shoulder ha ha . its a mindset actually. either u trust a system which is profit oriented or u can go on a journey for yourself . and there is plenty of abuse amongst holistic physicians .no doubt about that. but u can do a lot for yourself if u trust yourself. i personally trust myself more than a doctor spewing the party line. oh u need to take this for cholesterol. what is my cholesterol. oh its 186. why do i need it. oh we would like it down to 150. well if u want it down to 150 u take it doc cause i aint taking it ha ha.
my doctor is chinese but the funny thing is i am the one who believes in chinese medicine ha ha . she believes in drugs. i find that funny . theres an irony there somewhere. the system itself is robotic. it tolerates no disagreement with the party line . but a lot of intelligent people have come up with real answers to real problems for people if u are willing to modify your lifestyle. just my thoughts

norral

or the chinese herb tien men dong which is lung specific. which caused my lungs to have a major clearing which i didnt even know i needed. i work in a bus depot not the greatest place for fresh air. and which did the same thing for two other people in the depot who are using it. and which every person who works in a polluted enviornment would benefit greatly from. and it also expands the heart chakra giving one a greater feeling of at onement with the world. of course that would be hard to prove to someone but who really cares if anyone believe it or not. i know it to be the case i dont really need a study to prove my heart chakra has opened because of taking this herb. well norral dr so and so says we have no proof that your heart chakra has opened . ha ha well whatever will i do have to make dr so and so happy hes the authority . ha ha. NOT for me hes not and not for a lot of others i dont care what dr so and so says or what the system says. i trust my own feelings and my own body. as a matter of act dr so and so doesnt know what a heart chakra is ha ha so not too worried about what he or she thinks .

or we could take dr linus pauling who lived to be 93 i believe. he was taking 18 grams a day of vitamin c when he left this earth. a great biochemist and an honest soul concerned about the welfare of the human race. i guess dr so and so wouldnt approve of that without 8000 pages of rigged studies to prove vitamin c is actually detrimental to people but chemo is good good good. healthy for u so so good ha ha. vitamin c bad bad bad . living healthy to 93 dumb luck hey nothing to do with vitamin c at all nothing to see here keep moving take that chemo. what a joke this society is with all its pompous idiots who have sold their souls and havent had an original thought their who lives .

chemo good vitamins bad
war good sharing bad
ibuprofen good glucosomine bad

or the dr who told my brother in law to stop bothering him because that b**** (referring to my sister) is already dead - hes good good good

dr gerson, jensen and pauling bad bad bad no chemo no good

ha ha u CANNOT MAKE this stuff up

bob marley get up stand up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuMlHdxiIZ8

[zenmaster]

You've merely found and identified with a source which has associated the term treatment with doing something to another to FIX them. Thus the concept stuck, like a robotic patterning.

Is that not what the entire medical establishment is all about? How is it not?

I find it amusing that you accuse me of robotic programming; me, who seeks and thinks outside the box, and has traversed a long journey of healing which you know nothing about; while you defend the mainstream, which depends totally on robotic programming to survive.

I don't see any evidence of thinking outside of the box, whatsoever. Indeed you are and have been hand-waving and parroting what that subculture apprehends, using the same terminology and themes. Mere regurgitation is hardly a pioneering effort.

You seem to have your mind made up that alternative therapies are bogus and anyone pursuing them is brainwashed. (Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.)

Ok, you're wrong.

I can only conclude that you've never actually gotten to know people who've been healed via alternative therapies, because if you had, you'd know that many of them have been seeking for a great many years, and have tried a great many things, and view each one as another piece of the puzzle, with emotional and spiritual components playing a very important role. The idea that such a one would trust a single source, as though authoritative like the mainstream medical system, is laughable.

Indeed, you easily amuse yourself, being caught up in your own mind battle. As I said before, anecdotal evidence of effectiveness does not create a reliable choice. And of course, that is all you have to offer.

Please explain to me how you view the term treatment.

Addressing the trouble. Some treatments will be more effective than others, for various reasons.

[Monica]

You've merely found and identified with a source which has associated the term treatment with doing something to another to FIX them. Thus the concept stuck, like a robotic patterning.

Is that not what the entire medical establishment is all about? How is it not?

I find it amusing that you accuse me of robotic programming; me, who seeks and thinks outside the box, and has traversed a long journey of healing which you know nothing about; while you defend the mainstream, which depends totally on robotic programming to survive.

I don't see any evidence of thinking outside of the box, whatsoever.

Being willing to try new things...new healing methods that have not gotten a stamp of approval by the PTB...that is thinking outside the box.

Anyone who has ever sought out any alternative treatments, on their own, and made decisions about them despite disapproval from their doctors or families...has thought outside the box. The box, of course, being the conventional, approved medical establishment.

Indeed you are and have been hand-waving and parroting what that subculture apprehends, using the same terminology and themes. Mere regurgitation is hardly a pioneering effort.

Ya know, I could easily get offended by your comments, but instead I am laughing at your audacity. Indeed, that is quite ballsy, to tell someone they are merely 'parroting' when you know nothing of their experiences or journey...to tell them they are regurgitating the party line of a subculture, when they were doing those things before the subculture even existed. Yes, indeed, A for Audacity, zen!

You seem to have your mind made up that alternative therapies are bogus and anyone pursuing them is brainwashed. (Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.)

Ok, you're wrong.

Virtually without fail, any time anyone mentions anything alternative, you're the one saying it's bogus and you're the one defending the mainstream story that is fed to the public. So my opinion is based on observation. But of course, I won't do what you do and presume to know your motivations. So ok, then if I am wrong, I am happy to learn I'm wrong! I will endeavor to keep that in mind in the future...I will make a point to remember that you really are interested in the other point of view, even though I can't tell by what you say. No problem!

I can only conclude that you've never actually gotten to know people who've been healed via alternative therapies, because if you had, you'd know that many of them have been seeking for a great many years, and have tried a great many things, and view each one as another piece of the puzzle, with emotional and spiritual components playing a very important role. The idea that such a one would trust a single source, as though authoritative like the mainstream medical system, is laughable.

Indeed, you easily amuse yourself, being caught up in your own mind battle.

Pssst...hey zen...have you ever tried being nice? You might surprise yourself and actually like it.

As I said before, anecdotal evidence of effectiveness does not create a reliable choice. And of course, that is all you have to offer.

Actually, I'm not offering anything at all in the context of this conversation. This is just an internet forum. What I offer in my everyday life reaps results. To the people getting those results, that's all that matters. What you think about what I do doesn't matter. What they think is what matters.

Please explain to me how you view the term treatment.

Addressing the trouble. Some treatments will be more effective than others, for various reasons.

Yes, the 'trouble' from an allopathic perspective is localized, whereas the 'trouble' from a holistic perspective is systemic. That's it in a nutshell.

I have no interest in further discussion with you, zen, because once again you are teetering on the edge of insult and I'm really not interested in that. We clearly live in different worlds. Have a good day!

PS. Looking in the mirror, I realize that I was wrong to conclude that you've never encountered someone who had been healed using holistic modalities. It definitely seems that way to me, as I observe your attitude towards alternative healing, but I was wrong to state such as a 'conclusion' rather than just asking you. For that, I apologize.

If, however, my conclusion was accurate, and you haven't encountered such people in person, then I invite you to read some of their stories, for your own enjoyment and expansion. These are REAL people. I am one of them and I've met many others. Stories abound that may seem miraculous, but make perfect sense when viewed from within the holistic paradigm.

Here's a good one to start with:
http://www.drday.com/

I'm happy to hear that you are open-minded after all! That's reassuring, being that Dr. Day has been mercilessly ridiculed by the mainstream medical establishment she used to work for. A less open-minded person might just believe the folks at quackwatch.com without actually reading her story and deciding for themselves.

Here is another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6z3WD1oP5Y

I know Bill personally. He's a friend of mine.

Anecdotal, you say? That is a term used by the medical establishment to discredit the real stories of real people.

[norral]

just remember monica whatever healing u might have had occur to you is invalid. u know why. because its anecdotal ha ha. dont trust yourself monica trust the great dr so and so ha ha. he knows because he runs all the phony scientific studies that occur and is in the hip pocket of big pharma. now THAT is a trustworthy source . but what u experienced yourself, absolutely NOT valid monica not valid at all.
i also want to say that what i said about my knee and helping my friend is not valid. and why u may ask . because the great dr so and so didnt do a study on it and obviously i or anyone else is NOT capable of doing anything without the great dr. so and so giving his blessing. so please dont believe what i said its impossible.
oh wait im going out now at 3 30 in the morning . perhaps ill find dr so and so and he can straighten me out and correct my poor stupid thinking .

norral

[Monica]

Gosh, thanks so much for setting me straight, norral!!! Now I have to go find all those people whose pain disappeared and tell them they're supposed to get back on their meds and be in pain again, because, after all, the meds have been 'scientifically' studied! I have to round up all the ex-diabetics and tell them to get back on insulin injections, the 'proven treatment.' And the ones that are cancer-free after several years, I need to tell them that they should have just let themselves die when the dr. told them they'd be dead in 3 months.

[norral]

now u see the light monica. im so glad that dr. so and so has educated us , the unwashed anecdotals of the world. whew with his help we can get back to being sick, oops i mean healthy ha ha

norral

[Monica]

Unfortunately, many natural products are over-hyped, so it's easy to understand why allopathically-oriented people might stereotype anyone who's into natural healing. We've all heard the over-hyped claims of xyz berry juice drink or designer supplement! Many of those products are marketed with raving testimonials, making it sound like everyone will get the same results.

In my decades-long quest for healing of elusive issues, I tried many of those trendy products. I got some benefits with some and none with others. I marketed the one I got benefits from and learned very quickly that only about 1 in 3 people gets noticeable benefits from even the 'best' superfood.

This turned out to be true across the board. For every person who had a tumor shrink by drinking xyz berry juice drink, 2 others noticed nothing. Why? Because Person A was deficient in something the xyz berry juice drink provided, while the others weren't...OR there were simply other dietary/emotional/mental/spiritual/genetic factors at work.

Yes, I have experience with those things, so I can understand how someone unfamiliar with the holistic paradigm might mistakenly assume that everyone who's into holistic healing must be a sales rep for one of those over-hyped products, luring gullible, unsuspecting schmucks into paying lots of $$ with big promises to cure their ailment, while somehow keeping them from getting accepted, proven [sic] 'treatment.'

And yes, it's true that some people are just jumping from a quick fix from a pill, to a quick fix from 2 ounces of berry juice drink. They don't want to exercise or change their diet or lifestyle. They want to keep doing what they're doing, and expect the magic elixir to 'fix' them.

Those are the people who may get results from the berry juice drink, because it's probably the first and only healthy thing they've ever done. Sure, their body will cry out for more of that healthy syrup, starved for nutrients amid a sea of diet sodas and white bread.

But their benefits will be short-lived, because they don't yet grasp the concept of taking responsibility for their own health.

However, some do...and some, after getting a taste of improved health, start exercising, or looking into other nutritional supplements, or start eating better. A good experience with xyz designer supplement is often the first step on the road to improved diet and lifestyle! So it's all good.

I have nothing against berry juice drinks...some are excellent products (though others are mostly apple juice). They are good foods, along with other good foods. I'm just using this as an example of a trendy health product.

It's easy to stereotype and automatically assume that anyone promoting alternative health must be one of those people who is just regurgitating what their xyz company has told them to say. There are certainly people like that out there!

But what the person doing the stereotyping doesn't realize is that many of those who've actually lived it, walked their talk for not weeks or months, but years or even decades, have left parroting behind long ago. It's not about some product or even about money. It's about health...it's about life. Someone on a healing journey has endured myriad catalysts and it's an insult to tell them their experiences are invalid and their opinions worthless.

If those people sell a product, it's because that product helped them and they want to help others. Sure, some are just in it for the money, but for the most part, most are just real people who want to help others the way they were helped.

In my case, I got astonishing results from a product, and am now shouting from the rooftops about it. Who wouldn't? But it is different from all the xyz supplements, because it has reams of scientific data, virtually everyone (3 out of 3) gets noticeable results (provided they drink it according to protocol and don't drink sodas), and, it's not even considered a 'holistic' product at all, being that it's approved by the FDA of the country that's ranked #1 in the world for health and longevity, and is certified for hospital use in that country.

Is it a cure-all? No, it doesn't 'cure' anything. It certainly won't work if the person insists on drinking sodas. Why would anyone do that when they're told that sodas will interfere with their healing? Either they don't believe it, or they are still hanging on to their illness because it defines them, or they still need the catalyst. Nothing can 'fix' such a one who wishes to stay sick or in pain. It doesn't 'treat' anything. It's simply one of the key, foundational things our 3D bodies need. It has no nutrients, other than ionic minerals. So there is no such thing as "oh that won't work for me" because everyone's need for water to flush out metabolic waste is the same. It doesn't matter what their problem is. It doesn't matter if they've tried dozens of things that didn't work. They still need to flush out metabolic waste. It's simple chemistry. So I don't think in terms of treatment at all. I think in terms of supporting the person and helping their body do what it was designed to do. And then seemingly miracles occur! But they're not really miracles; it's just simple chemistry! See, it's a different paradigm.

It's the most under-hyped health product I've ever seen. As amazing as it sounds, the reality is far, far more dramatic!

Getting back to the main topic of this thread, it's just criminal that this product isn't recognized in this country. Something that has been used in Japanese hospitals for 40 years, and has numerous medical studies, even appearing in PubMed, Medline, etc. and yet the Medical Mafia of the US refuses to acknowledge it.

It's beyond criminal; it's evil. It epitomizes what we're talking about here: the drug industry continues to profit by keeping people sick. Sick people are commodities to them.

[norral]

just saw something on pbs about a product called prolift used for prolaps in women. its now off the market, caused many women to suffer, was approved by the fda and now the poor victimes, whose entire life has been changed, are left to suffer. all for profit. the almighty dollar is the god of the medical industry forget about do no harm , that went out the window a long time ago.