Why I am not a vegan

[Diana]

Choices are made based on awareness and freedom.
I think our freedom of choice is very limited on this planet; I think however we can continually push forward to freedom though. The apathy comes from being in a state of perceived oppression, which if you look around at our society, clearly people are oppressed on many levels.

This is true. And I think that's why it's so important for those who have gained a degree of awareness that conscious choice be made as much as possible. And though choice can have some limits, there is still choice within those limits.

Well maybe that is something to focus on, the concept of non-violence?

Any suggestions on how to go about that?

It seems to me to circle back to compassion and awareness, and then making conscious choices.

We all personally contribute to violence. If we can't see that, than we are kidding ourselves

Perhaps that's true, even just by existing here. But we may try to do the least harm, which is related to what we are aware of.

and developed purely for PROFIT. That is the culprit, imo. To reduce the responsibility of violence towards animals to enculturated "taste" is a bit shortsighted. We can't solve the problem by blaming each other for being less than our highest potential. We see what can happen there, it just devolves into a back and forth tit for tat argument that goes in circles, an expenditure of energy that may be worthwhile to put to other uses.

It's not about blame, in my opinion. It's about spreading awareness. As far as I can tell, any changes in the human condition have happened first by becoming aware of the situation.

On that vein, ie. the food industry is violent, recognize the violence everywhere in the food industry. Migrant workers are totally and completely exploited for profit. Women are sexually harassed, men women and CHILDREN are exploited in poor working conditions for little money, being exposed to dangerous chemicals and other dangers. The agri-business is huge and designed to be profitable (rather than nurturing, sustaining, and loving). It's a violent system that we have established on this planet, and violent on many many levels, in thoughts words and deeds.

Yes, the whole system is violent, including plant production. Many of us are working to change that by growing our own food as much as possible, and supporting local farmers' markets. That is a huge movement.

But it's important to remember that the vast majority of food crops are used to feed farm animals.

To stop eating meat is the obvious first step.

Well I would think that actually the first step is more foundational than that because it starts in the mind. Agreeing to non-violence in thoughts, words and actions would be a first step imo. And then making effort and steps to being in integrity with oneself.

It's like the chicken before the egg. One must start somewhere. For my part, I like to be practical. I know factory animal farming is massively cruel. Therefore I don't want to contribute to that system. It isn't always practical in every given situation, but here is where making a conscious choice to do the least harm comes in. If I had no other food than an egg from a free-range chicken and a leg from a caged chicken, I would choose the egg. I have more choice than that in my life, and I endeavor to choose the least harmful.

Let's go back to the fact that more crops of vegetables are grown to feed the animals eaten for their meat than humans consume directly. It IS the most logical first step—to stop the production of meat and the crops that feed them—in order to minimize the waste, the cruelty (to both vegetable and animal life), and the violence.

Also recognize that we are all part of the whole and contributing to a violent system. If you knew that the lettuce and cucumbers you were eating were harvested by a young girl about 12 years old who was depressed and thinking suicidal thoughts as she harvested the veggies for 9 hours in 99 degree temp, while a small plane overhead sprayed pesticide, how would you feel about the fresh vegetables your were eating? Would you think they were contaminated by bad energy or less nourishing or less spiritual? Have you thought about these kind of injustices?

Once again, this goes back to making choices. Perhaps one doesn't make much money and has to eat commercially grown non-organic vegetables because they are cheaper. There can be no blame. But if we stopped growing vegetables to feed the meat animals, less vegetables would be being harvested on commercial farms, and less children would be working on them.

I am pretty sure you probably have and make a lot of effort to be in integrity with yourself, but still despite all that effort, still there is personal contribution to violence.

I think there is also collective responsibility. That's why I feel less badly about human suffering than I do animal suffering. (Don't get me wrong here, it's all horrible and breaks my heart.) I feel humans have created this suffering to such a large extent. How have the animals and other life forms contributed to it?

I think we should come to an agreement and be on the same team as people for a better society based on love and compassion, rather than the almighty dollar.

[Monica]

Mine does.

Artificial ones don't count for the sake of the point made.

[Rhayader]

Mine does.

Artificial ones don't count for the sake of the point made.

Why would I have artificial ones? My teeth are just about 100% natural, no braces, unlike the unnatural straightening most people do, for I guess cosmetic purposes. I haven't even seen a dentist this millenium.

[Monica]

Why would I have artificial ones? My teeth are just about 100% natural, no braces, unlike the unnatural straightening most people do, for I guess cosmetic purposes. I haven't even seen a dentist this millenium.

I assumed you meant fake, since some people do get modifications. I saw one guy with all sharp teeth, but they had all been modified.

Not sure how you define fangs, but the point was that natural human teeth aren't as sharp as those of carnivores, whose fangs can tear apart a cow.

---

Hi Monica , is that's what you really think about people here at bring4th forum?

Is 'what' what I think of them? I said only that we cannot assume that everyone here wants to end violence, or even that nonviolence is something to aspire to at all. You said that was a 'given' but it's not. It is to me, and to you, and to some of us, but apparently many people here don't share that presumption.

[Quan]

Why would I have artificial ones? My teeth are just about 100% natural, no braces, unlike the unnatural straightening most people do, for I guess cosmetic purposes. I haven't even seen a dentist this millenium.

I assumed you meant fake, since some people do get modifications. I saw one guy with all sharp teeth, but they had all been modified.

Not sure how you define fangs, but the point was that natural human teeth aren't as sharp as those of carnivores, whose fangs can tear apart a cow.

---

Hi Monica , is that's what you really think about people here at bring4th forum?

Is 'what' what I think of them? I said only that we cannot assume that everyone here wants to end violence, or even that nonviolence is something to aspire to at all. You said that was a 'given' but it's not. It is to me, and to you, and to some of us, but apparently many people here don't share that presumption.

Dislcamier, each person has there experiences to learn this life so what is ideal for one is not for another.. generally i follow what feels natural to be more spiritual .. eg easier or more difficult to meditate. Having said that there were some great spiritual people in the past that still did eat meat\fish occasional. Being a younger teenager I was major meat eater(common phrase young to parents.. wheres the meat! It has taken long time to naturally move past this and conditioning ensuring i learn as much from catalyst thus letting go of desire before i can move on..only a handful of meals i eat now that contain meat and getting few and fewer. Fasting is common for me now, naturally not really drawn to food much anymore.
I found this quite helpful.. text from 1920 Holy Science. Guru here discusses food in one section in logical science way, the design of our physical body
What is natural food for man? (man in these times meant also woman)
first to select our natural food, our observation should be directed to the formation of the organs
Observation of Teeth: Further to Monica's comments Ours resemeble not that of carnivorous, herbivorous or omnivorous.. resemble those of frugivorous (so fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains, ). Where teeth are nearly of same height.. carn
Obseratvation of digestive Canal:
Bowels of frugivorous animals are 10 12 times larger than body as with us, carnivores its 3 to 5 times length of their body.
Looking at bowels once again resemble frugivoous. Measuring from mouth to anus. herbivorous are 20 to 28 times..
Obvervation of organs of sense:
Carnivore,Eyes light seize prey and laps up the bloody coming out of prey, herbivours refused natural food if sprinkled with bloody. Eg think a nice freshlly killed animal imagine it.. then imgaine a ripe mango, banana, grape etc.. what makes you salivate?
Or our senses delighting in seeing a slaughterhouse, compared sight of ripe fruit? or make also what mouths your mouth water of these?. Or smell of a freshly dead animal compare to smell of ripe fruit. Unless decieved by flavours of spice salt and sugar. Even spell of grains and roots some posses an agreeable odor, taste though faint until prepared.
Observation of Nourishment of the young: it is by milk , will it come in right nutrient from mum without fruit grains and vegetable ?
Cause of Disease: If foreign they can accumulate in escretort and other organs not properly
adapted to them.. the can reside in tissue crevices by law of graviation an be being fermented. produce disease, mental and physical and lead to early death. Research is showing that now.
Each of these categories theres more information I tried to condense
Fire is one thing comes to my mind.. if we had no technology to cook and no fire, would meat still be appealing?
If you want more information I have two screenshots of the text, cant copy it. I just realised before posting I cant attache

[Diana]

Fantastic post .T.

[Shemaya]

Well maybe that is something to focus on, the concept of non-violence?

Any suggestions on how to go about that?

Hi Diana, yes. We can exam within ourselves , where are the roots of violence and oppression. I think violence and oppression are rooted in our disconnection from Source, each other , and all life.

So we can examine what will connect us or disconnect us to/ from our other-selves.

Whatever causes duality, ie. us/them perspective, I feel is a source of disconnection. So how can we foster oneness, connection and community?

We all personally contribute to violence. If we can't see that, than we are kidding ourselves

Perhaps that's true, even just by existing here. But we may try to do the least harm, which is related to what we are aware of.

Yes that is a good point, striving to do the least harm. Once we have reached a level of awareness, perhaps by seeing that the violent food system we have is not 4D compatible, we can strive to manifest changes that will lead us there. You seem to be saying being a vegetarian is the only choice or first step available, however that is not true and also it is not fostering community and wholeness, but in my opinion it is contributing to a consciousness of duality, ie. us/them.

That being said, I agree that you are absolutely right as far as the torturous and horrid, inhumane , evil, ungodly system of farming animals that we have on this planet.

However,I am saying that the root of the system is profit.(which you did not comment on in my post) The system is there to make money and profit, to extract energy from others(including animals) rather than to nurture and sustain.

So if we buy into the for profit system in any way, then we are supporting the System. In truth there is no us/ them, we are in it together and we collectively support a System that enslaves and oppresses.

It's not about blame, in my opinion. It's about spreading awareness. As far as I can tell, any changes in the human condition have happened first by becoming aware of the situation.

That is certainly true. But also the changes that manifest come from within, if it is a true change. A true change is pure, flows freely, is natural and not forced, and certainly not forced by others. So it will manifest as the changes occur within.

It's like the chicken before the egg. One must start somewhere. For my part, I like to be practical. I know factory animal farming is massively cruel. Therefore I don't want to contribute to that system. It isn't always practical in every given situation, but here is where making a conscious choice to do the least harm comes in. If I had no other food than an egg from a free-range chicken and a leg from a caged chicken, I would choose the egg. I have more choice than that in my life, and I endeavor to choose the least harmful.

Let's go back to the fact that more crops of vegetables are grown to feed the animals eaten for their meat than humans consume directly. It IS the most logical first step—to stop the production of meat and the crops that feed them—in order to minimize the waste, the cruelty (to both vegetable and animal life), and the violence.

The cereals and grains that are fed to animals are much more likely to have automated, machine harvesting rather than humans.

Humans harvest the fruits and vegetables that humans eat. I don't think you would suggest stopping eating fruits and vegetables because of the rampant injustice that occurs with migrant farmworkers. We have to eat!

I think the logical first step is local farms and farm markets after the necessary changes are made in our awareness and consciousness. I think the really big problem is that people aren't aware that we recreate these systems on a daily basis and we need all of us collectively to manifest a different way of doing things.

Someone who is vegan might look with contempt on me because I raise chickens and eat their eggs. But is that a consciously aware judgment? Probably not, imo. To me it is a very life-affirming, conscious choice. A way to remove myself from the horrors of the system. A way to help others be more aware and get my family involved. It's been good for us.

Once again, this goes back to making choices. Perhaps one doesn't make much money and has to eat commercially grown non-organic vegetables because they are cheaper. There can be no blame. But if we stopped growing vegetables to feed the meat animals, less vegetables would be being harvested on commercial farms, and less children would be working on them.

Like I said, the cereals fed to animals(in the US) are likely harvested by huge commercial machinery, and children would unlikely be involved with that.

I think there is also collective responsibility.

Absolutely agree

That's why I feel less badly about human suffering than I do animal suffering. (Don't get me wrong here, it's all horrible and breaks my heart.)

Oh my. I think compassion is compassion. the 4D we are creating is a society for humans. Animals will be there, I'm sure, but we have to get the humans up to speed.

I think that means, getting out of duality, realizing we are in this together, and make life-affirming choices which are probably different for different people. A farmer who raises chickens on a small scale, organic free range, who does it compassionately to support his family has a honorable profession if you ask me.

On the other hand, a for profit company who imports quinoa to make profit for stockholders, I am not so sure those actions are as evolved toward 4D as the above named farmer. If I were making an aware and conscious choice, I personally would choose buying eggs from the farmer, rather than the quinoa.

[Diana]

However,I am saying that the root of the system is profit.(which you did not comment on in my post) The system is there to make money and profit, to extract energy from others(including animals) rather than to nurture and sustain.

So if we buy into the for profit system in any way, then we are supporting the System. In truth there is no us/ them, we are in it together and we collectively support a System that enslaves and oppresses.

I understand your point.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with money or profit. However, buying from greedy profiteering definitely supports the system. It's the greed (STS actions) that distorts the system. I love what you said above about nurturing and sustaining.

The movie, Zeitgeist, explains this concept very well.

That is certainly true. But also the changes that manifest come from within, if it is a true change. A true change is pure, flows freely, is natural and not forced, and certainly not forced by others. So it will manifest as the changes occur within.

True. But would you want to wait for pedophiles to change while your children are being molested? The thing is, the pedophiles will change eventually as they unravel their demons. In the meantime, you would want to protect your children—not by punishing the pedophiles, but by protecting your children.

That's how I feel about the animals (and all life). I would want to protect them from us and our cruelties.

Someone who is vegan might look with contempt on me because I raise chickens and eat their eggs. But is that a consciously aware judgment? Probably not, imo. To me it is a very life-affirming, conscious choice. A way to remove myself from the horrors of the system. A way to help others be more aware and get my family involved. It's been good for us.

I think you might be mistaken there. I certainly would not.

That's why I feel less badly about human suffering than I do animal suffering. (Don't get me wrong here, it's all horrible and breaks my heart.)

Oh my. I think compassion is compassion. the 4D we are creating is a society for humans. Animals will be there, I'm sure, but we have to get the humans up to speed.

Yes, compassion is compassion. That's why it continually amazes me that most humans seem to have a disconnect when it comes to life other than human.

4D is not just about humans. It is never just about humans. What about the planet we live on, or whatever life form we live on in 4D? That's one of our inherent problems—this egocentric view. I don't think that's what you meant, but there it is.

I feel less badly about cruelty to humans because of our collective culpability. You alluded to this yourself in that we all buy into the for-profit systems of cruelty.

I think that means, getting out of duality, realizing we are in this together, and make life-affirming choices which are probably different for different people. A farmer who raises chickens on a small scale, organic free range, who does it compassionately to support his family has a honorable profession if you ask me.

On the other hand, a for profit company who imports quinoa to make profit for stockholders, I am not so sure those actions are as evolved toward 4D as the above named farmer. If I were making an aware and conscious choice, I personally would choose buying eggs from the farmer, rather than the quinoa.

Your scenario is definitely a huge step in the right direction. But since we don't need food from animals to survive, then I personally envision moving away from it altogether, and toward gentler and gentler energy exchanges. This would include the same change from commercially farmed plants (from STS systems) to locally, lovingly farmed, or personally gardened, vegetables and fruits.

In regards to your comments about the human race changing from within, the concept of eating animal flesh is relevant. The brain chemistry, hormonal releases, and cell memory involved keeps us closer to the predator/prey instinct/compulsions when consuming animals.

It seems like such an agonizingly slow process waiting for humans to change/evolve. That is fine and probably as it should be according to the way this existence was created. It's just that more than humans suffer from human evolution. And now we are technologically so savvy we are manipulating genetic material as well as having the ability to destroy the planet and everything on it. The change from within needs to happen soon.

[Unbound]

I feel less badly about cruelty to humans because of our collective culpability.

This right here is exactly what disturbs me about this thread. How about equality of compassion for all beings?

[Diana]

I feel less badly about cruelty to humans because of our collective culpability.

This right here is exactly what disturbs me about this thread. How about equality of compassion for all beings?

I don't think you understand me. But maybe you do.

Regarding this thread, as you say you are referencing, I do feel more compassion for the animals being tortured to supply meat than for the humans wanting to taste something they like (the meat) when they don't need it.

And the human race has collective culpability in general. This is a working theory on my part, and only my opinion.

I understand your point. But it sidesteps the needless cruelty inflicted on animals very deftly. Touche. It's so easy to twist what I've said.

You may condemn me for disliking the human race (I do, much of the time, for the lack of compassion in general for all life), but don't condemn the vegans and vegetarians who don't eat meat because they have compassion for animals, on my account.

Please don't fixate on the word "condemn." Allow me to rephrase. Please don't use my opinion to dis this thread and the vegetarian point of view, "throwing out the baby with the bath water."

Please separate me out. It's only my opinion. I do not represent all vegans and vegetarians. Just as you do not represent all meat-eaters.

[Jade]

I feel less badly about cruelty to humans because of our collective culpability.

This right here is exactly what disturbs me about this thread. How about equality of compassion for all beings?

If we're talking about equal compassion across the board, then why aren't omnivores okay with eating humans? Dogs? Cats? Why are the same people who get upset about puppy mills the same people who will eat the remains of 20+ tortured animals in a week? I'm not calling you out specifically, but just framing what you've said that you directed at the vegans here in a way that I believe exposes some of the hypocrisy of your statement.

I'm pretty sure other than Diana's comment there has been very little of putting animals on pedestals above humans in this thread. In fact quite the contrary. Pretty sure the whole point is equal compassion for all beings. Diana may have some residual anger towards humans/herself for collective choices that have been made that she doesn't use animals to reflect, but don't we all??

And if you were talking about animals vs. vegetables, well, this one just doesn't fly for me. The day that you can pluck a ripe drumstick off of a chicken, which doesn't hinder the chicken in any way and in fact 2 legs grow back in its place and it continues to be a happy healthy chicken, while at the same time you are helping it propagate, that's the day that we can talk about how animals are as legitimate of a food source as plants. Doesn't mean I don't have compassion for them - in fact, the compassionate thing to do to a plant IS to harvest its fruit. If a plant fruits and drops its seeds on top of the parent plant, it has basically failed. Apples are bright red, sweet, and juicy, to draw animals to the fruit to help the species thrive. It's a symbiotic relationship instead of a predatory one.

[Monica]

Hi Diana, yes. We can exam within ourselves , where are the roots of violence and oppression. I think violence and oppression are rooted in our disconnection from Source, each other , and all life.

So we can examine what will connect us or disconnect us to/ from our other-selves.

Whatever causes duality, ie. us/them perspective, I feel is a source of disconnection. So how can we foster oneness, connection and community?

We can start by not ignoring the cries for help...the frantic, desperate call for compassion, by our younger other-selves.

Yes that is a good point, striving to do the least harm. Once we have reached a level of awareness, perhaps by seeing that the violent food system we have is not 4D compatible, we can strive to manifest changes that will lead us there. You seem to be saying being a vegetarian is the only choice or first step available, however that is not true and also it is not fostering community and wholeness, but in my opinion it is contributing to a consciousness of duality, ie. us/them.

Depends on who 'them' is. If by 'them' you mean those who choose to oppress other-selves by contributing to their torture and slaughter, then I contend it is they who are separating themselves, NOT us for pointing it out.

Whereas, 'them' could also refer to the 150+ Billion sentient being oppressed, often tortured, and always killed, every single year...we are definitely contributing to Oneness with them by no longer contributing to that.

Given the choice, I choose Oneness with the innocents. Those who knowingly contribute to the victimization of innocents are separating themselves.

That being said, I agree that you are absolutely right as far as the torturous and horrid, inhumane , evil, ungodly system of farming animals that we have on this planet.

Glad we agree on that!

Those who disagree have the choice to disagree. But we cannot be blamed for causing separation, just for refusing to pretend that what they're doing is ok. Pretending that oppression and unnecessary killing is ok isn't 'community and wholeness.'

Oppression and unnecessary killing aren't 'community and wholeness.'

Why would we want 'community and wholeness' with oppression and violence?

Are we supposed to pretend that oppression and violence are ok, just because it's being done by humans? Isn't that speciesism?

Must we 'seek community and wholeness' with other humans regardless of what they do, just because they are human? Does 'community and wholeness' refer only to other humans? Is it ok to separate ourselves from sentient non-human beings, just because they aren't human?

Is not killing another being the ultimate act of separation?

Therefore, isn't eating animals causing separation?

I seek 'community and wholeness' with the whole planet, including the innocent, sentient beings who are being victimized.

The victimizers are the ones 'contributing to a consciousness of duality, ie. us/them' not those seeking to free the victims.

However,I am saying that the root of the system is profit.(which you did not comment on in my post) The system is there to make money and profit, to extract energy from others(including animals) rather than to nurture and sustain.

Absolutely. But it's more than that. The STS entities feed on fear. 150 BILLION animals living in a state of constant fear and pain...that's a lot of food for those STS entities.

No wonder this planet is so f***** up.

How can we hope to raise the vibration of this planet while allowing this atrocity to continue?

So if we buy into the for profit system in any way, then we are supporting the System. In truth there is no us/ them, we are in it together and we collectively support a System that enslaves and oppresses.

The only way to change the collective is to start with ourselves.

That is certainly true. But also the changes that manifest come from within, if it is a true change. A true change is pure, flows freely, is natural and not forced, and certainly not forced by others. So it will manifest as the changes occur within.

True. But there's that 'force' word again. No one is 'forcing' anyone to do anything. Anyone reading this discussion does so of their own free will.

The cereals and grains that are fed to animals are much more likely to have automated, machine harvesting rather than humans.

Humans harvest the fruits and vegetables that humans eat. I don't think you would suggest stopping eating fruits and vegetables because of the rampant injustice that occurs with migrant farmworkers. We have to eat!

I think the logical first step is local farms and farm markets after the necessary changes are made in our awareness and consciousness.

I'd say that's a good 3rd step. The first step is to quit eating meat. The 2nd step is to quit eating commercial eggs and dairy. The 3rd step is to buy local, organic produce.

Someone who is vegan might look with contempt on me because I raise chickens and eat their eggs. But is that a consciously aware judgment? Probably not, imo. To me it is a very life-affirming, conscious choice. A way to remove myself from the horrors of the system. A way to help others be more aware and get my family involved. It's been good for us.

True, many vegans would, because it's a religion to them, black-and-white. No animal products, ever ever ever. Some of the discussions on the vegan forums are rather silly, in my opinion. As with any ideology, some lose sight of the goal in their effort to adhere to the dogma.

The eating meat part is black-and-white. There is no reason to ever eat meat. As has been discussed ad nauseum, there are always non-meat solutions to health problems. The human body simply doesn't need meat.

Commercially-produced eggs and dairy are also off the table. They are every bit as cruel as the meat.

Beyond that, there is a bit of wiggle-room, in my opinion. Many other vegans would disagree with me, but here's why I think that:

My dad raised chickens and they had a large yard to roam freely in. They pecked and scratched in the dirt. They had good lives, up until he killed them. But they laid eggs whether there was a rooster in the yard or not.

I think it's perfectly fine to eat the eggs from chickens raised thusly.

I don't think it's fine to kill the chickens and eat them though. But the eggs are going to get laid anyway, so why not eat them if you wish?

Totally different from buying store-bought eggs from chickens who were literally tortured every day of their miserable lives.

However, here's the problem: What happens to the chickens after their egg-laying days are over? My vegan friends would now point out that the chickens will likely get sold for slaughter. How many backyard chicken breeders let their chickens live full, natural lives and die of natural causes? Or are those 'happy, free-ranging' chickens sold for meat?

Further, what happens to the roosters?

It's the same with goats being raised for their milk, in a pasture with a good life. I don't think there's anything wrong with using some of the excess milk, provided the baby goats have had their fill. But...what happens to the goats after their milking days are over?

(Cow's milk is so bad for health I don't see any reason to ever even go there.)

I think that means, getting out of duality, realizing we are in this together, and make life-affirming choices which are probably different for different people. A farmer who raises chickens on a small scale, organic free range, who does it compassionately to support his family has a honorable profession if you ask me.

On the other hand, a for profit company who imports quinoa to make profit for stockholders, I am not so sure those actions are as evolved toward 4D as the above named farmer. If I were making an aware and conscious choice, I personally would choose buying eggs from the farmer, rather than the quinoa.

I see your point, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Many other subtleties come into play.

At any rate, I personally do support farmers like you. I buy such eggs to feed my doggies. I haven't yet made the leap to totally vegan dog food. Mostly vegetarian with some eggs from the farmer's market is a good transitional food for them, at this point. But I suspect that those chickens are being slaughtered, so I don't feel comfortable with it. But then, I'm still buying meat-based kibble for my cats (from still-offensive but less offensive sources). I'm seriously looking into switching them all over to vegan, but I'm not totally comfortable with that either. It's a problem, and I don't know the solution to that. Right now I'm learning as much as I can from other vegans who claim to be raising healthy dogs and even cats, on a vegan diet. They are the pioneers and I confess I want to see how it's working out for them before I volunteer my own babies in this experiment.

I am 100% certain that human children can thrive on a vegan diet. I'm not quite there yet when it comes to these obviously carnivorous animals. I see evidence of dogs and cats losing their prey instinct, so I'm optimistic that by the time humans all quit eating meat, this problem will work itself out. In the meantime, I'd rather support farmers like you for dog and cat food.

(Please see the early part of this thread for more on what to do about dogs and cats.)

---

And if you were talking about animals vs. vegetables, well, this one just doesn't fly for me. The day that you can pluck a ripe drumstick off of a chicken, which doesn't hinder the chicken in any way and in fact 2 legs grow back in its place and it continues to be a happy healthy chicken, while at the same time you are helping it propagate, that's the day that we can talk about how animals are as legitimate of a food source as plants.

WOW you nailed it! I will be quoting you!

[Monica]

Note: above post has been edited.

[Monica]

This right here is exactly what disturbs me about this thread. How about equality of compassion for all beings?

Can you please define beings?

[Ashim]

I eat and enjoy meat.
There are arguments that say I should stop doing this.
I decide to continue.

This is the discussion.
In a hat.

Try and stop me.

[Diana]

I eat and enjoy meat.
There are arguments that say I should stop doing this.
I decide to continue.

This is the discussion.
In a hat.

Try and stop me.

Sounds like fighting words. No one is trying to stop you Ashim. You have free will.

Whatever your opinions are on what this thread is about, it IS an open discussion. And that's all.

If you're feeling defensive, you might ask yourself why. Whatever your decisions are, they are yours; and hopefully you will make them consciously, take responsibility for them, and embrace them without feeling the need to defend them.

For my part, no one could stop me from doing anything (apart from some extreme scenario such as being kidnapped or imprisoned).

[Monica]

I eat and enjoy meat.
There are arguments that say I should stop doing this.
I decide to continue.

This is the discussion.
In a hat.

Really??? All these marathon discussions have been about whether Ashim eats animals??

Gosh, I thought it was about the spiritual implications of eating animals from a Law of One perspective.

Thanks for letting us know that all this time, it has been about whether 1 person - you, Ashim - eats animals and how much you enjoy it.

Try and stop me.

You know we can't stop you. What is the point of saying that? Are you gloating? Does it give you satisfaction?

[Ashim]

Thanks for letting us know that all this time, it has been about whether 1 person - you, Ashim - eats animals and how much you enjoy it

Well, should I have been dishonest in my discourse or not?

[Monica]

Thanks for letting us know that all this time, it has been about whether 1 person - you, Ashim - eats animals and how much you enjoy it

Well, should I have been dishonest in my discourse or not?

No, not at all. I am just surprised to learn that this discussion is all about you.

[Ashim]

Thanks for letting us know that all this time, it has been about whether 1 person - you, Ashim - eats animals and how much you enjoy it

Well, should I have been dishonest in my discourse or not?

No, not at all. I am just surprised to learn that this discussion is all about you.

Who is it about then?

[Monica]

Who is it about then?

These

[Quan]

Fantastic post .T.

Thank you Diana

[Monica]

Don't worry, this isn't graphic. Start at 2:36.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9b1T4lOHtA

They're calling. You can hear them if you listen.

Ra answered our calls. Why do we not answer theirs?

[Ashim]

Don't worry, this isn't graphic. Start at 2:36.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9b1T4lOHtA

They're calling. You can hear them if you listen.

Ra answered our calls. Why do we not answer theirs?

We are, albeit slowly.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/money/secr...ar-BB85C5M

[Monica]

We are, albeit slowly.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/money/secr...ar-BB85C5M

That appeals to the mainstream, who care only about taste. The mainstream doesn't care about our younger other-selves' calls for help. I am referring to us, who are presumably Wanderers. We cannot answer their calls while killing and eating them.

Many vegans probably aren't even Wanderers, yet have heard their cries, and are taking action.

[Ashim]

We are, albeit slowly.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/money/secr...ar-BB85C5M

That appeals to the mainstream, who care only about taste. The mainstream doesn't care about our younger other-selves' calls for help. I am referring to us, who are presumably Wanderers. We cannot answer their calls while killing and eating them.

Many vegans probably aren't even Wanderers, yet have heard their cries, and are taking action.

Everyone is a killer.
Some think that they are not.
Ignoring their true nature they are.

[Diana]

Everyone is a killer.
Some think that they are not.
Ignoring their true nature they are.

So you think the true nature of all humans is a killer?

Do you mean that we have to take life in oder to sustain ourselves? That's one of the main issues in the "meat vs. vegetable as sustenance" discussion and has been extensively canvassed. I would be happy to reiterate some of it. Because there are many differences between taking animal life and taking plant life. For instance:

And if you were talking about animals vs. vegetables, well, this one just doesn't fly for me. The day that you can pluck a ripe drumstick off of a chicken, which doesn't hinder the chicken in any way and in fact 2 legs grow back in its place and it continues to be a happy healthy chicken, while at the same time you are helping it propagate, that's the day that we can talk about how animals are as legitimate of a food source as plants. Doesn't mean I don't have compassion for them - in fact, the compassionate thing to do to a plant IS to harvest its fruit. If a plant fruits and drops its seeds on top of the parent plant, it has basically failed. Apples are bright red, sweet, and juicy, to draw animals to the fruit to help the species thrive. It's a symbiotic relationship instead of a predatory one.

Or perhaps you mean something else?

[Monica]

Everyone is a killer.
Some think that they are not.
Ignoring their true nature they are.

I strongly, emphatically disagree. We are supposed to be evolving. We aren't stuck at the caveman stage.

Inhaling bacteria isn't killing. We are their natural environment. Plants have a totally different design than animals. Simple observation shows that they are designed to provide nourishment for animals and humans. It is a merging of life force, in contrast to the forced domination/killing of an entity against its will.

[Unbound]

Are you not all things?

[Ashim]

Everyone is a killer.
Some think that they are not.
Ignoring their true nature they are.

I strongly, emphatically disagree. We are supposed to be evolving. We aren't stuck at the caveman stage.

To truely evolve one must recognise and integrate the dark aspects of ones nature.
I am obviously not recommending that you go out and start culling, rather that the 'killer' is simply acknowledged.
Maybe that's why I sense so much 'hate' in the words of many who encourage the vegan/veggie lifestyle.