Why I am not a vegan

[indolering]

.
Thank you, Monica, for speaking up for all the sentient creatures who are wantonly tortured and slaughtered to feed ignorant humans who appear to have no empathy towards animals they choose to consume. The idea of cruelty to animals does not stop at domesticated species; it is valid for all sentient creatures. And the idea that humans need meat for a healthy, complete diet is absurd and has been drilled into us by the meat and dairy industry. Unfortunately, most people are loathe to admit they have been brainwashed or have been wrong about something their whole lives, and have even been mislead, unintentionally, by their parents.

Plants are a different 'animal' altogether - in fact, they belong to a different phylum if I remember my first biology class correctly. One of the great purposes of plants is to nourish vast amounts of the animal kingdom, and we may consume them without guilt and with assurance that their effects upon us are wholly beneficial and healing. Whereas consuming animals involves the killing of creatures who have the right to live free without harassment from humans; further, many animal foodstuffs have been shown to be deleterious to health of human beings. Plants may object to being utilized by human activity but their noble purpose in providing sustenance and healing to humanity and millions and millions of other animals is reason enough for their existence. Yet they also represent the great balancing force for the animal kingdom which takes in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide.

There is rhyme and reason in this creation, and part of higher consciousness is understanding the great plan which has been devised for our world. Technically, morality and ethics are not universal principles, but inspired intuition tells us that there are morals which pertain to all creatures with higher consciousness, e.g., "Do no harm to living creatures, and cause the least amount of suffering during one's daily activities." This posture is correct for higher animals throughout the universe. "Live and let live." Many great people throughout history have observed that the animal-free diet is the wave of the future and is an evolutionary leap for humanity as we continue our spiritual development.

These are my thoughts and feelings, yet I try to be universal in my understanding of vital issues such as life and death and torture and slavery.

Morning Has Broken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZAsfB1Np-8

[Ashim]

.
Thank you, Monica, for speaking up for all the sentient creatures who are wantonly tortured and slaughtered to feed ignorant humans who appear to have no empathy towards animals they choose to consume.

The animals know that they will be killed for food.
They enter incarnation fully aware of this fact.

Sure, they experience fear and add to the overall negativity of the planet, but this is their service.

Branding humans as ignorant does nothing for your cause and may be seen as quite offensive by some.

I might appear to you to have no empathy towards these creatures but I assure you this is not the case.

[Shemaya]

Thank you, Monica, for speaking up for all the sentient creatures.

Thank you to all (Diana, Pablismo, you, Jade, et al.) who have spoken up. Surely they are speaking and acting from their hearts and expressing compassion, standing by their convictions. Honorable and virtuous,imo.
Though, definitely, Monica is the most catalyzing of the group!

The idea of cruelty to animals does not stop at domesticated species; it is valid for all sentient creatures. And the idea that humans need meat for a healthy, complete diet is absurd and has been drilled into us by the meat and dairy industry. Unfortunately, most people are loathe to admit they have been brainwashed or have been wrong about something their whole lives, and have even been mislead, unintentionally, by their parents.

Here you are incorrect and missing a grounded whole picture perspective, and also establishing a moralistic, divisive perspective on the issue. Humans started domestication of animals thousands of years ago. It's not just parents, it has been part of the evolution of society. When fingers are pointed at others that they are "wrong" about something so basic to survival as food, obviously, it is going to stir up strong survival instincts and patterns , impressions, energy that are imprinted in our brains from thousands of years of evolution.

You cannot just sweep all that away by blaming people for their so-called STS choices, and imposing a moral standard that spiritual people should be held to.
Bear in mind that this thread is about veganism, no animal products ever. It is not about the choices to have milk (as Ghandhi did) or fish ( as Jesus did) . It becomes about eating meat as these divisive threads on the forum invariably do. The conversation does not have to be divisive however, it becomes so because of the energetic patterns and blockages of compassion to the 4D earth that is emerging. I would love to see compassionate communication about this and a gentle evolution of our society to compassionate and sustaining food production to feed the masses of our society. However it has to begin within us. If we cannot have compassion for each other, and converse in an empowering way, how can we expect the rest of the world to be empowered to find ways to live sustainably and free of cruelty? If we are going to see meat -eaters as "them" , ignorant, wrong, STS, etc., it is disempowering to our intention to create a 4D society.

A 4D society does not include a food production system based on greed and profiting off the the suffering of others. Can we address that as a root to the evil that is the torturous and cruel food production system that we have? A simplistic admonition "Stop eating meat" does not address the root of the evil, and blames the less aware for the mind control and brainwashing that is imposed on them. I say it's time we stop blaming individuals for their lack of consciousness and start blaming the real STS beings that have done the brainwashing. Rather then vegan vs. non-vegan, the real separation we want for our society is for the STS beings to go evolve on another planet, timeline or whatever, and leave this beautiful long-suffering planet so that we can all return to the beautiful Garden that she was meant to be.

Is the root of the evil the first hunter, the first farmer of a herd of animals for food? Did our agricultural system that has been developed over thousands of years start as evil, humans at root are evil? I say no. We can trace meat eating back to those firsts and there is no judgment on my part for those firsts. Can we now transform into a vegetarian society? I think yes, it will happen eventually and we are certainly headed in that direction. However until we get there, let's support and encourage the farmer who gently raises chickens and cows, the farmer who raises veggies ethically and resists GMO's and buy-outs from corporate-owned profit machines.
Can we encourage each other to make conscious choices based on what nourishes and sustains?

Can we be thankful for the Life-force that continues through each and everyone one of us and all beings on this planet and this creation, through birth, life, and death, through our evolution and on to completion?

There is rhyme and reason in this creation, and part of higher consciousness is understanding the great plan which has been devised for our world.

[Parsons]

Wow, thanks for the eloquent post Shemaya. I agree with everything except one minor caveat. I don't blame the so-called 'STS' people either. Please refer to the scorpion and the frog fable as to why.

[Shemaya]

Thanks Parsons, can you post a link and give me your thoughts on the fable?

Found it:

The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

[Diana]

.
Thank you, Monica, for speaking up for all the sentient creatures who are wantonly tortured and slaughtered to feed ignorant humans who appear to have no empathy towards animals they choose to consume. The idea of cruelty to animals does not stop at domesticated species; it is valid for all sentient creatures. And the idea that humans need meat for a healthy, complete diet is absurd and has been drilled into us by the meat and dairy industry. Unfortunately, most people are loathe to admit they have been brainwashed or have been wrong about something their whole lives, and have even been mislead, unintentionally, by their parents.

Plants are a different 'animal' altogether - in fact, they belong to a different phylum if I remember my first biology class correctly. One of the great purposes of plants is to nourish vast amounts of the animal kingdom, and we may consume them without guilt and with assurance that their effects upon us are wholly beneficial and healing. Whereas consuming animals involves the killing of creatures who have the right to live free without harassment from humans; further, many animal foodstuffs have been shown to be deleterious to health of human beings. Plants may object to being utilized by human activity but their noble purpose in providing sustenance and healing to humanity and millions and millions of other animals is reason enough for their existence. Yet they also represent the great balancing force for the animal kingdom which takes in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide.

There is rhyme and reason in this creation, and part of higher consciousness is understanding the great plan which has been devised for our world. Technically, morality and ethics are not universal principles, but inspired intuition tells us that there are morals which pertain to all creatures with higher consciousness, e.g., "Do no harm to living creatures, and cause the least amount of suffering during one's daily activities." This posture is correct for higher animals throughout the universe. "Live and let live." Many great people throughout history have observed that the animal-free diet is the wave of the future and is an evolutionary leap for humanity as we continue our spiritual development.

These are my thoughts and feelings, yet I try to be universal in my understanding of vital issues such as life and death and torture and slavery.

Morning Has Broken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZAsfB1Np-8

Beautifully said, Indolering.

[Parsons]

Thanks Parsons, can you post a link and give me your thoughts on the fable?

My thoughts about 'STS' individuals are the same as the scorpion from the fable. It is simply their nature to act as they do and I accept that.

[indolering]

.
Thank you, Monica, for speaking up for all the sentient creatures who are wantonly tortured and slaughtered to feed ignorant humans who appear to have no empathy towards animals they choose to consume.

The animals know that they will be killed for food.
They enter incarnation fully aware of this fact.

Sure, they experience fear and add to the overall negativity of the planet, but this is their service.

Branding humans as ignorant does nothing for your cause and may be seen as quite offensive by some.

I might appear to you to have no empathy towards these creatures but I assure you this is not the case.

I beg to differ that animals are aware that they will be eaten one day - I've seen no evidence to suggest such a thing. Their 'service' is not to be eaten but to live a natural life, free and content as God intends, in order to teach humans to also be free and content, with a peaceful morality intact.

Once a human being has reached a certain consciousness that he realizes to kill is wrong, that cruelty to others is hurtful and delays spiritual progress, one can no longer claim that his spiritual evolution (the past) continues to control his behavior - it is his own rejection of ethical demeanor, much like a drug addict knows he shouldn't be obsessed with drugs but continues using in spite of himself. This is normal as most of us require much time before integrating important realizations - but to claim that it's ok to participate in mass animal torture and slaughter, and insist that eating animals is natural for a human being, one may categorize such persons as ignorant of true spiritual values. Do no harm. This is not something one can easily refute. Values such as this are rarely expressed in our society and the opposite is often encouraged by violent and sexualized depictions. It's not offensive to be wrong - we've all been there - the really offensive behavior is the condoning of cruelty.

You yourself may have empathy toward tortured and slaughtered animals but to participate in that process through consumption speaks against one's authenticity of conviction.

Yes, no doubt many here will feel offended by my condemnation of cruelty to sentient creatures - but in truth, what they object to is their own weakness to resist old and destructive habits, and/or one's (unconscious) realization that one is mistaken in his attitude and behavior resulting in guilt, and hence feeling offense against one who proclaims the proper, loving attitude of higher consciousness.

[Jeremy]

.
Thank you, Monica, for speaking up for all the sentient creatures who are wantonly tortured and slaughtered to feed ignorant humans who appear to have no empathy towards animals they choose to consume.

The animals know that they will be killed for food.
They enter incarnation fully aware of this fact.

Sure, they experience fear and add to the overall negativity of the planet, but this is their service.

Branding humans as ignorant does nothing for your cause and may be seen as quite offensive by some.

I might appear to you to have no empathy towards these creatures but I assure you this is not the case.

I beg to differ that animals are aware that they will be eaten one day - I've seen no evidence to suggest such a thing. Their 'service' is not to be eaten but to live a natural life, free and content as God intends, in order to teach humans to also be free and content, with a peaceful morality intact.

Once a human being has reached a certain consciousness that he realizes to kill is wrong, that cruelty to others is hurtful and delays spiritual progress, one can no longer claim that his spiritual evolution (the past) continues to control his behavior - it is his own rejection of ethical demeanor, much like a drug addict knows he shouldn't be obsessed with drugs but continues using in spite of himself. This is normal as most of us require much time before integrating important realizations - but to claim that it's ok to participate in mass animal torture and slaughter, and insist that eating animals is natural for a human being, one may categorize such persons as ignorant of true spiritual values. Do no harm. This is not something one can easily refute. Values such as this are rarely expressed in our society and the opposite is often encouraged by violent and sexualized depictions. It's not offensive to be wrong - we've all been there - the really offensive behavior is the condoning of cruelty.

You yourself may have empathy toward tortured and slaughtered animals but to participate in that process through consumption speaks against one's authenticity of conviction.

Yes, no doubt many here will feel offended by my condemnation of cruelty to sentient creatures - but in truth, what they object to is their own weakness to resist old and destructive habits, and/or one's (unconscious) realization that one is mistaken in his attitude and behavior resulting in guilt, and hence feeling offense against one who proclaims the proper, loving attitude of higher consciousness.

That's why these threads are so entertaining for me. This is all subjective conjecture based upon ones own personal belief system yet they espouse it as gospel and look down upon those who think otherwise.

[Diana]

I would like to point out one thing that keeps slipping through the cracks here. We don't even know that Jesus existed. Many feel he did, but our only "evidence" is the Christian bible. But to say he ate fish is crazy. First of all, the bible is a work of rewritten fiction (even assuming the original prose was authentic) and full of horrible violence and hypocrisy (just read the caveats after the 10 commandments). And even so, the stories are all in parable.

And by the way, Genesis in the bible points out that "I [God] have given you [man] every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." (King James Version)

[Shemaya]

I would like to point out one thing that keeps slipping through the cracks here. We don't even know that Jesus existed.

He exists.

We don't know that Ra existed either, and yet here we all are spending countless hours of online discussion to understand the words channeled by this supposed " Ra"

But to say he ate fish is crazy.

No it's not. Maybe crazy to you. But it's not crazy, insane, mad or deranged. During his time it was customary.

And by the way, Genesis in the bible points out that "I [God] have given you [man] every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." (King James Version)

Although inconsistent to your whole argument, I like that quote.

[Diana]

I would like to point out one thing that keeps slipping through the cracks here. We don't even know that Jesus existed.

He exists.

We don't know that Ra existed either, and yet here we all are spending countless hours of online discussion to understand the words channeled by this supposed " Ra"

You are missing the point. It is your opinion that Jesus existed or exists. I don't need to know that Ra exists in order to discuss the Ra Material. I don't need to know Jesus existed to discuss the bible.

I don't recognize authority outside myself.

But to say he ate fish is crazy.

No it's not. Maybe crazy to you. But it's not crazy, insane, mad or deranged. During his time it was customary.

Okay, I didn't say insane, mad, or deranged. Please let's not get melodramatic. I suppose I need to be more selective with grammar. I meant "crazy" in a slang sort of way. Let me rephrase: It's pure speculation based on no facts at all that Jesus ate fish (or even existed).

And by the way, Genesis in the bible points out that "I [God] have given you [man] every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." (King James Version)

Although inconsistent to your whole argument, I like that quote.

I was not being inconsistent if you wouldn't read into what I say rather than just reading it with an open mind. I personally find passive-aggressive digs such as this annoying.

I added that as a "by the way." I was only pointing this out for those who are using the Christian bible as an authority (Jesus ate fish so I can eat meat). It would be self-serving to use the Jesus parable, but ignore the alleged mandate from God.

Why do you like that quote?

[Shemaya]

Diana,
If you reread what you wrote and my response to your pretty strong and controversial statements ( ie. jesus didn't exist, saying he ate fish is crazy, the Bible is fiction), my response is not anywhere close to melodramatic. Insane , deranged are synonyms of crazy.

I just pointed out that you refuted the Bible and then used it to support your argument . Seems inconsistent.

It's a good quote

[indolering]

That's why these threads are so entertaining for me. This is all subjective conjecture based upon ones own personal belief system yet they espouse it as gospel and look down upon those who think otherwise.

The main point in my post(s) is that the torture and mass slaughter of sentient creatures is definitely representative of cruelty. And those involved in any part of the process of this business of killing animals for food shares in the guilt. This is not conjecture or opinion but unassailable fact. You disagree?

And I do not look down on those who are cruel to animals. I condemn cruelty to animals and will defend this position. I pity those who are involved for they invite negative experience for themselves in the future (karma and all that, right?). The pathological obsession with cruelty and the consumption of corpses is, for humans, a perversion of human nature - it is the nature of lions to hunt for prey; it is the nature of man, as an herbivore to eat plants and avoid violence. The fact that men have always been involved with war and strife stems more from the aberrations of control (lust for power/control), greed, and pride; one might also say that spiritual insensitivity is due to a lack of spiritual development. It's not entertaining to me to witness so-called aspirants endorsing cruelty on a grand scale, to say nothing of the health and ecological harm inflicted by this practice.

[Ashim]

That's why these threads are so entertaining for me. This is all subjective conjecture based upon ones own personal belief system yet they espouse it as gospel and look down upon those who think otherwise.

The main point in my post(s) is that the torture and mass slaughter of sentient creatures is definitely representative of cruelty. And those involved in any part of the process of this business of killing animals for food shares in the guilt. This is not conjecture or opinion but unassailable fact. You disagree?

Guilt? Probably only a small minority experience this emotion, they are mostly indifferent to the cause, whilst unknowingly adding gravity to the situation.
You sir are being judgemental.
How this type of posturing can be seen as factual eludes me.
Head stuck in the rabbit hole?

[indolering]

Guilt? Probably only a small minority experience this emotion, they are mostly indifferent to the cause, whilst unknowingly adding gravity to the situation.
You sir are being judgemental.
How this type of posturing can be seen as factual eludes me.
Head stuck in the rabbit hole?

Their guilt is not dependent upon their realization or experience of feeling guilty. Yes, I'm being judgmental and I judge that people who eat animals are guilty of animal cruelty. I expect that a jury of our peers would decide the same.
This has nothing to do with rabbit holes - this is psychology 101. An act of cruelty is obvious to all but the most obtuse. The rabbit hole might enter the picture if one becomes cognizant of the propaganda/brainwashing which induces us to consume animal products.

Would it be all right if a superior alien intelligence came to Earth and engage in the herding and slaughtering of humans for food?

[Ashim]

Yes, I'm being judgmental and I judge that people who ................... are guilty of..................

I don't think it's the rabbit hole that your head is stuck in.

[BrownEye]

Here you are incorrect and missing a grounded whole picture perspective, and also establishing a moralistic, divisive perspective on the issue.

When fingers are pointed at others that they are "wrong" about something

I love the self mirroring here.

While some become aware of higher frequencies and naturally "lighten" their way through them, the rest have chosen to remain in what they consider familiar, relying on the excuses of outdated ways and traditions. A lot of arguments across this forum are over outdated concepts and energies. Very comical.

Carry on with the show

[Shemaya]

Here you are incorrect and missing a grounded whole picture perspective, and also establishing a moralistic, divisive perspective on the issue.

When fingers are pointed at others that they are "wrong" about something

I love the self mirroring here.

While some become aware of higher frequencies and naturally "lighten" their way through them, the rest have chosen to remain in what they consider familiar, relying on the excuses of outdated ways and traditions. A lot of arguments across this forum are over outdated concepts and energies. Very comical.

Carry on with the show

Kind of like the blind trying to lead the blind. They end up in a ditch together....

Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise and learned, fools go aimlessly hither and thither, like blind led by the blind.

— Katha Upanishad

He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides [of the blind]. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

— Matthew 15:13-14,

[/quote]

[Diana]

Awesome!

Here's what I suggest as symbols. These horses are clearly lonely..so in the name of coming together and supporting each other, we will picture one smaller horse and one larger horse enjoying each other's company under a large tree. Any suggestions? Anything to add? It would be nice to all do it at the same time, but I think intent is the only thing that matters. I will visualize it during meditation once a day or every other day.

I wanted to tell you Icaro, and Unbound, that I continue to use this visualization—at the very least—every time I go past a lonely/sad horse(s).

Thank you both for helping to bring this into being. 

[native]

Very cool, and you're welcome. I visualize the scene every now and then as well

[Shemaya]

On a positive note ( given the flaming that's happening in the other thread), I am making a concerted effort to be highly conscious with regards to food choices. I speak up whenever I can to bring to light the horrible food system we have created. I am not vegan, but I think that activists for animals have been fighting an uphill battle, and their warriorship is rife with all kinds of catalyst ( reactions and not unified ego behaviors).

So despite whatever ill feelings between us, I have gratitude for their immense compassion and effort on behalf of creation and want to personally and publicly thank Monica, Diana, Brown eye and Indolering.

[Shawnna]

[Diana]

On a positive note ( given the flaming that's happening in the other thread), I am making a concerted effort to be highly conscious with regards to food choices.  I speak up whenever I can to bring to light the horrible food system we have created.  I am not vegan, but I think that activists for animals have been fighting an uphill battle, and their warriorship is rife with all kinds of catalyst ( reactions and not unified ego behaviors).

So despite whatever ill feelings between us, I have gratitude for their immense compassion and effort on behalf of creation and want to personally and publicly thank Monica, Diana, Brown eye and Indolering.

Thank you Shemaya. I have no ill feelings for you or anyone else participating in this forum. I am grateful to this forum and everyone here for the opportunity to canvass subject matter openly which I rarely get a chance to outside of B4.

Just to be clear, I am not an animal activist. I never talk about the subject unless asked. The one exception is here, where you could even say I am still being asked as questions open up discussions.

I do not see not aligning with animal cruelty as a battle. I see it as a heartbreakingly sad situation humans have gotten themselves into. I'm not sure what you mean by "not unified ego behaviors," but you can count me out of that. My ego has nothing to do with my feelings about animals and food.

You are correct in a sense, that just being vegan or vegetarian is an uphill battle in general. It is swimming against a huge tide. I don't care though. I don't care about the mean jokes, the in-your-face jibes, or any of that. The only thing that affects me is the misery of animals because of human unsconsciousness.

[K-PAX]

~ Left Bring4th to avoid bullying ~

[Monica]

Quickly posting this here as I need to sleep but don't want to forget -

a link I found recently (via fbk) and find it very thought provoking...

couple of quick points about me:

cruelty to animals bothers me so much if I see photos or footage of it I feel either homicidal or suicidal (literally)...
I used to belong to an anti-vivisection activist group and 'animal liberation'
I was vegetarian for 10 years (2 of which I was vegan)...

- yet because of very ill health I returned to omnivorous eating (slowly) over about 10 years - although not so much for the last few years (currently eat meat/chicken/fish a few times a year -usually when cooked for a communal meal (& by someone else) ..)
...the rest of the time I'm mostly veg (lacto/ovo)


http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-...hands-4659

I can relate. I went back to eating animals for a couple of years, about 15 years ago, when I was very sick. It was very hard for me but I did it because I was desperate.

In my case, it didn't help at all. My problems had nothing to do with being vegetarian.

Many people who wish to be vegetarians for spiritual or ethical reasons have had problems with their health. It was commonly thought that eating meat would solve those problems; ergo, they must 'need meat.'

Thankfully, the pioneers who have paved the way before us have figured it out. Usually, it's simply a case of one of these 4 common issues:

1. They aren't supplementing with B12.

2. They aren't eating enough calories.

3. They aren't getting enough Omega 3 EFA's.

4. They aren't taking metabolic typing into consideration.

Metabolic typing is when some people thrive on high carbs (grains and fruits) and low protein/low fat, whereas others thrive on lower carbs and higher protein/fat. Either one can easily be accomplished with a vegan diet, but the ratio of carbs to protein/fat is different.

This discussion between the Paleo top guy and the raw vegan top guy explains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9As-uy1V13Q (if this link quits working, do a youtube search for 'Cousens Mercola debate'.) Dr. Cousens claims a 100% success rate for people who wish to be vegans, by simply adding superfoods to their diet and making an adjustment to the ratio.

Regarding animals killed during harvesting of plants, there is no question that the incidental killing of rodents is an issue that needs to be resolved. The real blame for that is the corporate farming model, characterized by chemical pesticides, large harvesting machinery, and monoculture. (and now we can add GMOs to the list!) That in itself is an obscenity. But it doesn't justify intentionally raising animals for slaughter, raping them, and eating them. 

But yes, clearly the farming of vegetables needs to be overhauled as well.

In the meantime, shopping at farmers' markets whenever possible, and buying organic, is the simple solution to avoid incidental killing of rodents.

An important point to be aware of, also, is that most of the plants thusly harvested are used to feed livestock, not humans. So being vegan means fewer rodents killed. No matter how you slice it, being vegan means less death and destruction.

[K-PAX]

~ Left Bring4th to avoid bullying ~

[Monica]

Thank you for your respectful comments.  

with respect Monica, your summary of the points made in that article  

(http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-...hands-4659)

isn't correct

it's primarily about massive crops grown for human consumption... (the analysis does include animal stock food as well - though in Australia there is more animal grazing of grasslands than intensive farming - so the main focus of the article is on plant production for HUMANS)

I was referring to food production worldwide, which overwhelmingly is to feed livestock. I have read that article before and I am aware that they were focusing on food for humans, with only cursory lip service to food for livestock, because, apparently, there are more free-ranging animals in Australia. Even so, the article seems to be an attempt to justify meat-eating by pointing out problems with the farming of plants for food.

I have read comprehensive analyses of that particular articles, but to be honest, I don't remember all the points offhand. I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

For now, I will say that the argument in favor of eating animals, by arguing that animals are also killed in harvesting plants, holds no weight, because a huge percentage of plants are harvested in order to feed livestock. This is still a true statement, worldwide, though maybe less so in Australia.

Nevertheless, the solution isn't to just eat animals! The solution is to improve agriculture, to reduce all animal suffering, including rodents.

you make many points I agree with but I feel the complexity of our food situation(s) on Earth are so diverse (and mostly f#cked up) that your reply isn't comprehensive enough... (nor is what I'm saying - nor that article either)

I definitely agree with you that it's complex! It would be impossible to address all the complexity in a single post, so I wasn't even trying to do that. Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but I (along with a handful of other vegetarians/vegans) have been engaged in this topic for several years now, to the tune of literally hundreds of posts!

So rather than read a single post, the only way to really grasp the complexity is to read all the existing threads on this topic. I simply don't have the time to repeat all that's already been said, and there's no reason to, since it is all cataloged and documented.

I invite you to read what's already been said:

Bring4th Forums Two > Health & Diet  v > In regards to eating meat

Unfortunately, that thread got locked, so you can't reply to any of those posts. But, here is the continuation of that marathon thread:

Bring4th Forums Two > Health & Diet  v > A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet

Post #2 has an index, by topic, of the original thread. If you don't want to slog through the whole thread from beginning to end, you may wish to just jump to the sub-topics you're interested in, by clicking on the links in post #2.

(however, baby mice singing out to their dead mother and then slowly dying themselves... (so I can have vegan oatmeal for breakfast) is a very distressing truth   )
Unfortunately being vegan isn't cruelty free - unless you eat from your own garden or farm only - and control the conditions completely)
and I care about the pain of mice as much as of cows...

I agree! It is impossible to be 100% vegan in this society. Even if you did grow all your own food, there are still insects to deal with. This is why the definition of vegan is to be as responsible as possible, in minimizing harm to animals.

I commend you for caring about baby mice! The solution is to grow our own food as much as possible, so that we're not supporting corporate agriculture, chemical farming, GMOs, and monoculture, all of which cause widespread killing of wildlife, including bees. The solution isn't to just eat animals! That only perpetuates the problem.

but it's a bit concerning that you speak as if you (and others) have a 'whole picture'

because the more I read and research and learn and unlearn.... I see that it's just SO complex...

I don't have the whole picture and it isn't my intention to oversimplify the issue. You will see this if/when you read the many hundreds of comments I have made regarding this issue. If you're going to assess my views, please do so based on the sum total of all those hundreds of posts, rather than a single thread. But I do believe that going vegan is the logical first step.

You mentioned that you care about the baby mice. So do I. But most people on this forum don't even care about pigs, who are smarter than their dogs. So if they don't even care about pigs, what hope is there for them to care about baby mice?

So I start with pigs...showing them that pigs are smarter than dogs...pigs can solve puzzles just like human toddlers.

Then I show them how chickens purr. Did you know that chickens purr?

...or I might show them how cows mourn the loss of their babies.

Nearly all those efforts have been in vain, as far as I can tell. But the hundreds of comments will be there, so hopefully, occasionally, someone might stumble on those threads and get some value out of them. That's all I can do. It isn't up to me. As you said, this planet is f***** up. All each of us can do is our part, and move on.

Usually, when meat eaters talk about baby mice, it isn't because they care about the baby mice, but because they are trying to catch the vegans in a contradiction.

I do agree that we have to start somewhere and it's with ourselves, our own diet and shopping choices...
but there is no 'one size fits all' solution here...  this issue is SO complex...

Yes, it is complex, which is exactly why we have to start somewhere. Not eating animals is a lot easier to do than growing one's own food. Start there, then as more people go vegan, we can continue to improve. The meat industry is the biggest single destructive component. All the others pale in comparison. You won't find that in the articles written by biased meat-eaters whose objective is to accuse vegans of hypocrisy. But you will find it to be true when you cross-reference those articles with others and look at the big picture.

you have a LOT of passion for this issue and I really respect that... but perhaps could you look at doing (even more) (really comprehensive) research and then present solution based ideas for the specific locales/lifestyles/incomes of the people you're interacting with?

Whew! That's a mighty big task you're suggesting I take on there! If someone were to ask me specifically, I'm always happy to help. But most people here aren't even interested in the info I've already provided, so I don't see any reason to spend that kind of time on such a project. Other people can use the internet just as easily as I can.

Again, I'm happy to help if you are asking for my help. I just can't take on such a project, especially knowing that it would all be for naught.

and also look at the way you configure your energetic 'presence' and psychology towards others on this important issue? because educating works better than guilting or confronting/ accusing people.... (haven't read whole thread yet so apologies if this isn't accurate... but I sense it is?)

Since you haven't read the whole thread yet, much less other threads, then you are assessing based on a very tiny piece of the whole. The tone of my own comments and of others changed considerably over the course of several years, after numerous attempts to have a respectful discussion.

Nothing I say could ever trigger guilt in anyone. To prove this point, what if I said "Eating tomatoes from your organic, patio garden is STS". Would you feel guilt?

By the way: ... humans aren't (anthropologically) herbivores but omnivorous opportunists who ate/eat according to specific local availability/traditions etc... for example, I have a friend who's Inuit/Eskimo... and he eats Narwhal .... hardly any plants... because where he lives is all snow and ice... who are we to speak against that? He hunts sustainably... the animal is free and peaceful it's whole life until a quick death and then the community has ceremony and prayers of thanks for it's life. A vegetarian/vegan diet would make him and his community very physically ill.
And additionally - these are Indigenous communities trying to rebuild from western invasion/influence.. trying to regroup and steer clear of alcohol and drugs and video violence etc.... you can't grow corn on snow... there's millennia of sacred interaction and balanced co habitation of Indigenous people and the animals around them...

This topic has been addressed, comprehensively, in the threads I linked above.

(actually I'm put in mind of the novel 'ISHMAEL' at this point... it makes a lot of sense ..have you read it?)

Yes, many years ago.

anyhoo... as I'm saying it's COMPLEX
Indigenous peoples traditions of land usage and spiritual relationship with animals (including hunting/eating them in an ecologically balanced and profoundly reverent way as part of LIVING and ONGOING traditions of sustainable culture of millennia (over 40,000 years in the case of Australian Aboriginals); ethically informs that non-Indigenous people have NO RIGHT to interfere or impose beliefs/ideas/practices - particularly not onto peoples already imposed on by being colonised, marginalised, robbed of their lands, disconnected from, and/or striving to reconnect or remain connected to their original cultural practices and spiritual traditions; as well as trying to find a way to interact safely with (and within) a dominant culture that's disenfranchised them since invasion.

Another example of the complexity around veganism/vegetarianism? - there's a great deal of past and continuing research into plant consciousness (that I can link many interesting articles to)... that's shown/showing that they are sentient and can feel pain (to varying degrees...)-  so there's a deep teach/learning needed there as well.

These too have been explored comprehensively. I invite you to read those old threads.

...now I'll start at page one of this thread and read whole way through to here (page 20 !) as time and my brain permits.

Oh gosh, this is only a very tiny thread! Wait'll you see the others!  

[K-PAX]

~ Left Bring4th to avoid bullying ~

[K-PAX]

~ Left Bring4th to avoid bullying ~