[split] "Some people eat animals, some don't."

[Monica]

I'm hearing the same lame arguments again and again, specifically that, since ultimately all is One, polarity doesn't matter, STS is cool too, hey just be STS, it doesn't matter what we do because those 'victims' chose it on some level, blah blah blah.

I've said this repeatedly and I'll say it again: Try substituting humans for animals and see how that works for you. Use your exact same arguments, but with people:

They chose it on a soul level.

It's all good...STS is good too.

You need to accept that some people chose to be raped, tortured and murdered, so go ahead and pay an assassin to rape, torture and murder multiple people on a daily basis...yeah go ahead and do that if that's how you get your jollies...after all, I'd never want to judge you if you enjoy the thrill of watching people getting tortured and killed. That's no different from enjoying the taste of their flesh. In fact, if you happen to be a cannibal and want to eat the victims, go right ahead! Just be careful not to get caught, since it's illegal. But from a spiritual perspective, it doesn't matter. Nothing matters. It's all good.

How does that work for you? Did you find yourself nodding in agreement?

No? Why not? The concepts are the SAME. The ONLY difference is that animals are younger souls. That's it. No other difference.

Therefore, your concepts fall flat. 

Unless, of course, you prefer what Q'uo calls the 'dark and bloody path.' Indeed, some prefer it. In that case, yeah, your arguments make sense.

I offered suggestions to the mods that they make a decision about whether this forum is to be unapologetically STO-biased or not, as is Ra. At this point, it isn't. So it's quite alright if some aren't STO-oriented. Hey, whatever works for you, go for it!

But we can never find understanding between us, if you aren't of the Path of Light, the STO path. Our paradigms are just too different. At the time of this forum's inception, I was told that, of course it was designed to be a forum for STO-oriented seekers. But that has changed. I realize now that I can no longer assume that everyone here has the same orientation. That is OK. I just need to make that mental adjustment, which is what I'm doing now.

I'm going to quit wasting my time trying to explain basic STO concepts to people who don't embrace the STO path. No judgment towards you. You've got to do your own thing, pursue your own path. Go for it! But please understand that my words are intended for those who, at the very least, share an STO bias.

I am interested in discussing the topic of eating younger other-selves from the perspective of the STO path. I am NOT interested in explaining what the STO path is, or why one would want to answer the call of those who are calling. Good grief, if you don't even understand why you'd want to answer someone's call if you were able to, then WHY am I even talking to you???

If you truly don't understand what STO and STS are all about, then please start a thread about it and explore it. (Assuming, or course, that you even care.) Or start a thread about why xyz race/ethnicity/gender/species is superior to others and the others can be oppressed. From the STS perspective, that's cool. So go for it!

...

[Minyatur]

You are talking apples and oranges here. Those 2 concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

Of course everything is chosen by the soul, on some level. But that isn't the same as what is consciously chosen, at the personality level.

Every rape victim chooses to be raped, on a soul level. But No woman ever consciously chooses to be raped, see?

Jesus did both. He chose to be a sacrifice on a soul level, but he also chose it consciously as well. Rape victims don't do it consciously. Neither do animals. Sure, on a soul level, but No, not on a conscious level. You can see this by simply observing them as they struggle to get away, just as any human would struggle to get away from a killer.

Of course, else the experience would not be. I do not think they are two separate concepts, more that one of them transcends the other.

On a higher level the Creator wants to know Himself, on a lower level He keeps regretting it day after day in infinite ways.

My main concern about you Monica in this thread, is that you reject the slaughtered animal's experience as part of their path.

No I don't. And I don't see how you can still say that, after we've gone round and round on that point countless times.

I will say it once more: Of course it's part of their path. It's part of everyone's path, whatever they experience. That isn't the point.

The point is whether it's our task to participate. Is it our task to be the murderer, the rapist? Try your logic on a human victim. Can you argue that it's ok for any of us to just go willy-nilly raping and killing people?

Of course not. Not unless one is STS, that is. STO entities don't go around raping and murdering.

Not humans anyway. They know that isn't congruent with the STO path.

But they do it to their younger other-selves, willy-nilly, every single day, and then they try to justify it with their speciesism.

My argument here is that to be part of Unity (in awareness... as we're ever part of Unity), one needs to become that which selflessly provide what is required whatever that is. The earth spit fires and shakes it's ground just as it gives everything needed to support life.

About STO entities, they also do incarnate here on earth so that they may experience themselves STS behaviors first hand to help them grow further from their current limits in blending with the All. That they may come to love what they are not yet able to love, or they could also dwell in their distorted awareness of the All without furthering their evolution for the whole of eternity.

Well fine then. Go ahead and rape and murder some little girls then. Why not? It all comes out in the wash.

I feel not called to do these things but am aware I also am every single person that ever did under the circumstances that created such events.

About 2D callings, it is true that 2D entities can create calls. It is false to think that a calling implies that it needs to be answered.

LOL!!!!

Yep, that's pretty much half of what the evolution we are exploring is about. The whole point of polarity to begin with.

Denial is a service which is equally sought by souls on a much higher level as an experience in their path. In term of resonance, a call that needs to be denied will fall upon deaf hears whereas a call that needs to be answered will be heard by what can answer it. No coincidences, just always the exact right resonance.

So saith the one who can hear just fine but chooses to feign deafness.

The only thing that bring these calls to myself is you and you've yet succeeded to make me feel resistance toward it. If you ever do, I do look forward to it.

You can disagree with what I have said, but in my opinion an inevitable part of your path will be to acknowledge that this kind of services are equally perceived as STO when seen beyond a limited and paradoxal awareness of them. Unity is ever present, you not perceiving Love nor Unity simply reflects your own paradoxes to work upon. The comparison that Aion has made with Jesus as that of the martyr, is in my view awareness that suffering is always a chosen experience and that other-selves that provide this service exist for that purpose as they are required.

Everything simulatenously creates everything else it's path is interwined with, and we are simply the moving awareness or observer of it all happening.

Oh blah blah. Whatever.

Blah blah, whatever.. we're but one sick Logos exploring the crap he can do to himself as all of us.

[Minyatur]

Well whatever you say I already do have a STO bias. It might not be consonant with higher positive densities but still has me at the beginning of the Light path.

Walking this path does not negate any form of wisdom nor understanding of other-selves that I have either.

[Diana]

I just want to add, that in 2015, it's not impossible to be extremely ethical with most of your purchases. I try hard in all areas, not just food. The "trees and GMOs and people don't matter!" argument IS a slippery slope, and a strawman. I feel guilty when I pull weeds, and avoid it. I see wooden objects as a strange mutilation. I buy from local vendors and not huge conglomerates. I shop at an organic grocery store. I've avoided large technological purchases in recent times because I'm worried about the ethics of how we produce them. To assume that just because in a thread about eating animals, that no one is talking about reducing plastic waste, that it's something that nobody thinks about, either.

This isn't me bragging, this is just me explaining a few of the choices and lifestyle changes I have made to be a more conscious consumer of our Earth's resources.

Money is energy. We can spend it thoughtfully or thoughtlessly like all other forms of energy.

Yes, exactly. Those are the same kinds of choices I make every single day. It's just normal to me, to make those choices.

...

We make conscious choices one at a time. No, we can't do EVERYTHING because for one thing, we don't know everything. But each choice can be conscious based on our awareness. For instance, I don't have the money right now to build a house made of all "green" materials. When I remodeled the house I live in, I used recycled materials wherever I could—carpet, roof, insulation. One choice at a time.

So why choose to eat meat? That is the point here. It's not necessary for human survival. It destroys more plants geometrically than if animals weren't raised for food. This is to say nothing of pesticides on the plants grown for the animals, GMOs, and the suffering of the animals, plants, and planet.

[Minyatur]

I just want to add, that in 2015, it's not impossible to be extremely ethical with most of your purchases. I try hard in all areas, not just food. The "trees and GMOs and people don't matter!" argument IS a slippery slope, and a strawman. I feel guilty when I pull weeds, and avoid it. I see wooden objects as a strange mutilation. I buy from local vendors and not huge conglomerates. I shop at an organic grocery store. I've avoided large technological purchases in recent times because I'm worried about the ethics of how we produce them. To assume that just because in a thread about eating animals, that no one is talking about reducing plastic waste, that it's something that nobody thinks about, either.

This isn't me bragging, this is just me explaining a few of the choices and lifestyle changes I have made to be a more conscious consumer of our Earth's resources.

Money is energy. We can spend it thoughtfully or thoughtlessly like all other forms of energy.

Yes, exactly. Those are the same kinds of choices I make every single day. It's just normal to me, to make those choices.

...

We make conscious choices one at a time. No, we can't do EVERYTHING because for one thing, we don't know everything. But each choice can be conscious based on our awareness. For instance, I don't have the money right now to build a house made of all "green" materials. When I remodeled the house I live in, I used recycled materials wherever I could—carpet, roof, insulation. One choice at a time.

So why choose to eat meat? That is the point here. It's not necessary for human survival. It destroys more plants geometrically than if animals weren't raised for food. This is to say nothing of pesticides on the plants grown for the animals, GMOs, and the suffering of the animals, plants, and planet.

Because mirrors.. that's all we are, each reflecting different truths. Just like you think you are not wrong, I also do think I am not wrong.

I've said in multiple threads that I think the earth is something to be understood as mirror on self rather than something to be changed to impose one's own mirror. So most of my perspectives are based on that. I do try to see the earth as a blessing in all of it's ways, to everything that has incarnated on it's plane.

[upensmoke]

dude i think the major disagreement is that your mind state and actions seem to fall under the identity of STS using the LOO as a reference while you claim its its STO. An STO bias only towards humans is an STS bias towards all other entities not seen as humans. All STS indviduals see the inherent one-ness in all things. Because they see this One-ness Some think it doesn't matter to cause suffering or ignore suffering. First, it doesnt matter to cause this suffering or ignore this suffering because all is one and there is no right or wrong. But feel that based off of what i read your perception of the identity of your polarity is distorted to falsity in regards to meat eating.

Ra: I am Ra. The Law of One, though beyond the limitations of name, as you call vibratory sound complexes, may be approximated by stating that all things are one, that there is no polarity, no right or wrong, no disharmony, but only IDENTITY. All is one, and that one is love/light, light/love, the Infinite Creator.


Elros Tar-Minyatur my major disagreement is that extrapolating from your logic as to how your meat eating is either not polorizing or is not STS. You would have been the type of person who would have owned a human slave and say its STO or niether because of the reason that this is his souls choice to be a slave and you as one person freeing their slave won't have any impact on the state of slavery as a whole. Do you agree with this logic ? if not could you explain why. Please and thank you.

[Diana]

Because mirrors.. that's all we are, each reflecting different truths. Just like you think you are not wrong, I also do think I am not wrong.

I've said in multiple threads that I think the earth is something to be understood as mirror on self rather than something to be changed to impose one's own mirror. So most of my perspectives are based on that. I do try to see the earth as a blessing in all of it's ways, to everything that has incarnated on it's plane.

I think the fundamental difference in our thinking is a passive vs. and active approach to evolution. I don't disagree with you in your views. But they are based on just "being" with the all, whereas I am more prone to "creating." 

I understand the idea that "all is perfect as is." From a certain perspective, this idea is very true. And yet, inherent in this universe is the impulse to evolve. This can be observed everywhere. Perhaps this is a red herring, but I don't think so. So if there is an energetic, or underlying, urge to grow, expand, evolve, then to just see everything as perfect can be thought of as acceptance. But acceptance does not mean you just sit back and let everything be as it is because you accept it. Given that there may be a universal tendency to evolve, then inherent within that idea is creation, or to create. Making conscious choices, and not just flowing with what is, can be seen as participating consciously in that evolution, by creating.

This idea can get very muddied. There are paradoxes to unravel (or accept) such as: I accept things as they are, but I want to change them. But I don't see this as paradoxical. To put it into mundane terms, I see it as proactive. I may accept that things are as they are here, as I understand what this place is and how it got this way; but my desire to see a kinder world on Earth and be able to visualize that is part of the process of creation. 

[Jade]

So why choose to eat meat? That is the point here. It's not necessary for human survival. It destroys more plants geometrically than if animals weren't raised for food. This is to say nothing of pesticides on the plants grown for the animals, GMOs, and the suffering of the animals, plants, and planet.

This is the smoking gun for the "but nobody cares about the plants!" argument. All those monoculture corn farms are not feeding humans, they are feeding cows and pigs and chickens (or making ethanol). So the food chain that we facilitate, all around, supports the enslavement. I just feel better outside of it. Just like I feel better outside most of the other industries that facilitate enslavement and torture.

Breakdown on corn consumption from wiki:


livestock feed 43.4%
ethanol production 30.2%
exports 15.3%
production of starch, corn oil, sweeteners (HFCS, etc.) 7.8%
human consumption—grits, corn flour, corn meal, beverage alcohol 2.7%

Yes, I care about the maize as much as  I care about the cows. I want everyone to have better. That's my selfishness.

[Nicholas]

Does eating meat mean you killed the animal..?

Yes. Vicariously, but the responsibility is the same.

Just as, in a court of law, the assassin is just as guilty as the one who paid them.

...

Metaphysically I don't think that logic works in the same way...

The Payer: "I have an assignment for you. I am offering you double your normal fee. Your track record is exemplary and I would be happy to do business with you again."

The Assassin picks up the documents from the table and begins to read. He smiles then picks up the brown envelope. He raises one eyebrow as this is the first time he has ever been offered full payment in advance as well as double the amount. 

The Assassin: "You can consider it done."

The Assassin takes care of business but gets caught by law enforcement. To maintain his professionalism he remains silent during his trial and is convicted of murdering a notorious rival to The Payer.

Looking through the lens of the Law of One as I perceive it, The Payer has successfully polarised towards the negative as another negatively oriented being has done his bidding for him without coercion. No karma results, more power does.
The Assassin however took great pride in his reputation but it has become significantly damaged. The opportunity to continue learning the ways of the negative path is greatly reduced by being placed in isolation while on death row. Due to the emotional attachment with his failure he accrues Karma.

So I think attachment is the key when looking at law from a metaphysical or universal perspective, which is the difference between the gameboard and the Gameboard. In other words the Assassin is playing on the gameboard (creating karma) while The Payer is playing on the Gameboard (polarising).

Do you think it is possible Monica to graduate from this density while eating meat our entire lives? For example a good natured person becomes a pillar of support in his/her community. They are honest, committed and see no value distinction between the local vicar and a Mongolian nomad, yet his favourite time of the week is the Saturday morning trip to the local butchers for his prime rashers of bacon?

[Monica]

The only thing that bring these calls to myself is you and you've yet succeeded to make me feel resistance toward it. If you ever do, I do look forward to it.

Well since I've failed so miserably, I'd be happy to send some of my vegan friends over to your house, if you like.

Blah blah, whatever.. we're but one sick Logos exploring the crap he can do to himself as all of us.

That's for sure!

...

[Monica]

Metaphysically I don't think that logic works in the same way...

The Payer: "I have an assignment for you. I am offering you double your normal fee. Your track record is exemplary and I would be happy to do business with you again."

The Assassin picks up the documents from the table and begins to read. He smiles then picks up the brown envelope. He raises one eyebrow as this is the first time he has ever been offered full payment in advance as well as double the amount. 

The Assassin: "You can consider it done."

The Assassin takes care of business but gets caught by law enforcement. To maintain his professionalism he remains silent during his trial and is convicted of murdering a notorious rival to The Payer.

Looking through the lens of the Law of One as I perceive it, The Payer has successfully polarised towards the negative as another negatively oriented being has done his bidding for him without coercion. No karma results, more power does.
The Assassin however took great pride in his reputation but it has become significantly damaged. The opportunity to continue learning the ways of the negative path is greatly reduced by being placed in isolation while on death row. Due to the emotional attachment with his failure he accrues Karma.

So I think attachment is the key when looking at law from a metaphysical or universal perspective, which is the difference between the gameboard and the Gameboard. In other words the Assassin is playing on the gameboard (creating karma) while The Payer is playing on the Gameboard (polarising).

I emphatically disagree and have no idea how you concluded that. Why do you think the Payer is playing on the Gameboard but the Assassin isn't? Where did you get this idea that it all depends on attachment? And why do you think the Payer is polarizing whereas the Assassin isn't?

You cannot know whether the Assassin polarizes, or in which direction, just because he is in isolation on death row. It all depends on what he chooses to do with his time, while there. Does his isolation trigger remorse? Does he 'repent' of his crimes and vow to become a better person? Does he agonize over the pain he has caused, after much introspection? If so, then he loses negative polarity and begins to polarize in the direction of positive.

If, on the other hand, he responds to the isolation by nurturing his hatred, and never has any remorse for his deeds, but instead plots his escape and plans more killing as soon as he is freed, then he continues polarizing to STS. Whether he actually kills or not is irrelevant. What sort of catalyst he has is irrelevant. What is relevant is how he responds to that catalyst, whether in prison or on the street.

Both have catalyst. Karma is simply more catalyst, based on our response to catalyst. Both men in this example are accumulating more karma. Everyone does, regardless of their choices, until they graduate from this density.

Both are playing on the gameboard.

Do you think it is possible Monica to graduate from this density while eating meat our entire lives? For example a good natured person becomes a pillar of support in his/her community. They are honest, committed and see no value distinction between the local vicar and a Mongolian nomad, yet his favourite time of the week is the Saturday morning trip to the local butchers for his prime rashers of bacon?

I will answer that with a counter question: That same man, early 1800s, when slavery was still legal and socially acceptable. That man is a pillar of support in his community, is honest, committed, and goes to church every Sunday. He loves his wife dearly and has always been faithful to her. He is a good father to his children. He helps out his neighbors whenever they need help. For his entire adult life, he also 'owns' 50 black slaves, just like his father before him. He treats them pretty much the same as most slave 'owners' do: He feeds them the minimum to keep them strong, he gives them a barn and some hay to sleep in, and he whips them when they rebel or don't work like he thinks they should.

Is he harvestable?

...

[Monica]

  Slaughterhouse Worker.jpg (Size: 43.21 KB / Downloads: 10)

[Minyatur]

I think the fundamental difference in our thinking is a passive vs. and active approach to evolution. I don't disagree with you in your views. But they are based on just "being" with the all, whereas I am more prone to "creating." 

I understand the idea that "all is perfect as is." From a certain perspective, this idea is very true. And yet, inherent in this universe is the impulse to evolve. This can be observed everywhere. Perhaps this is a red herring, but I don't think so. So if there is an energetic, or underlying, urge to grow, expand, evolve, then to just see everything as perfect can be thought of as acceptance. But acceptance does not mean you just sit back and let everything be as it is because you accept it. Given that there may be a universal tendency to evolve, then inherent within that idea is creation, or to create. Making conscious choices, and not just flowing with what is, can be seen as participating consciously in that evolution, by creating.

This idea can get very muddied. There are paradoxes to unravel (or accept) such as: I accept things as they are, but I want to change them. But I don't see this as paradoxical. To put it into mundane terms, I see it as proactive. I may accept that things are as they are here, as I understand what this place is and how it got this way; but my desire to see a kinder world on Earth and be able to visualize that is part of the process of creation. 

I do agree with pretty much everything you said. I'd just say that I explore my "creational-drive" as Co-Creator by exploring each day my inner-self.

I think one of the main point that is over-looked is that I never disminished being vegan and also said a few times (although not recently) that I do believe it will eventually become my call.

Right now I do not feel called to do so in my current circumstances and my intuition tells me that my habits are guided in not creating further harm to a living being than what already is done. I do not feel bad about eating what already has been sacrified as part of one's experiences on his path and see eating meat as interacting with 1D foodstuff and not 2D animals.

I am ever open that in my ever-ongoing transformation, I can come to be moved in different ways than my current ones.

[Monica]

I do not feel bad about eating what already has been sacrified

It wasn't sacrificed. It was stolen. The physical substance, as well as the life of the being, were stolen.

...

[Minyatur]

dude i think the major disagreement is that your mind state and actions seem to fall under the identity of STS using the LOO as a reference while you claim its its STO. An STO bias only towards humans is an STS bias towards all other entities not seen as humans. All STS indviduals see the inherent one-ness in all things. Because they see this One-ness Some think it doesn't matter to cause suffering or ignore suffering. First, it doesnt matter to cause this suffering or ignore this suffering because all is one and there is no right or wrong. But feel that based off of what i read your perception of the identity of your polarity is distorted to falsity in regards to meat eating.

Ra: I am Ra. The Law of One, though beyond the limitations of name, as you call vibratory sound complexes, may be approximated by stating that all things are one, that there is no polarity, no right or wrong, no disharmony, but only IDENTITY. All is one, and that one is love/light, light/love, the Infinite Creator.

Polarity exists in intent. You judge what polarizes myself based off your own heart instead of mine. The reason I do believe it doesn't polarize me negatively is that I also do not think being vegan would polarizes myself positively as of now. Now the impact of this usually stagnant energy and what I make of it is an another matter in itself.

I do not believe I have preferences about humans, there exists sufferings across this entire world I am not doing anything about. You seem to think I feel no compassion toward animals whatsoever, what I meant by being indiferrent is that I do not feel that I am infringing on free will in my meat consumption.

Elros Tar-Minyatur my major disagreement is that extrapolating from your logic as to how your meat eating is either not polorizing or is not STS. You would have been the type of person who would have owned a human slave and say its STO or niether because of the reason that this is his souls choice to be a slave and you as one person freeing their slave won't have any impact on the state of slavery as a whole. Do you agree with this logic ? if not could you explain why. Please and thank you.

I guess I am the kind of person that uses money every day despite thinking it is soaked in blood.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Does eating meat mean you killed the animal..?

Yes. Vicariously, but the responsibility is the same.

Just as, in a court of law, the assassin is just as guilty as the one who paid them.

...

So, using Law of One ideals, you've turned the Philosophy into a judgment system synonymous with Human Justice Systems, of your own Judgment.

Okay, that's all the knowledge I needed to comprehend why you've been so violent spiritually towards the decisions of others.

I empathize with the reasoning, and the approach.  But veganism is a door.  You can't shove people through it, they'll just resist.   Similar to GMO products, and Endangered Products, Mass Produced nonbiodegradable products, or just growing a garden.

You can talk of it, even fight, argue it endlessly.  That is activism (the only kind I've seen on this site), but using spiritual principles to scare people into doing it i.e. If you eat meat you'll depolarize and not graduate, is not much different from depolarizing your self by trying to control what another does.

You're ignoring Law of One concepts to use Law of One in your own distorted manner, not much different from I.  Will you at least admit that?  If I need to explain how, well, there's a door, I can't push you through it.  You need to have the openmind to step through and consider what's being made apparent to you.

Again, not calling you wrong, trying to show you how you're depolarizing yourself.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I'm hearing the same lame arguments again and again, specifically that, since ultimately all is One, polarity doesn't matter, STS is cool too, hey just be STS, it doesn't matter what we do because those 'victims' chose it on some level, blah blah blah.

I've said this repeatedly and I'll say it again: Try substituting humans for animals and see how that works for you. Use your exact same arguments, but with people:

They chose it on a soul level.

It's all good...STS is good too.

You need to accept that some people chose to be raped, tortured and murdered, so go ahead and pay an assassin to rape, torture and murder multiple people on a daily basis...yeah go ahead and do that if that's how you get your jollies...after all, I'd never want to judge you if you enjoy the thrill of watching people getting tortured and killed. That's no different from enjoying the taste of their flesh. In fact, if you happen to be a cannibal and want to eat the victims, go right ahead! Just be careful not to get caught, since it's illegal. But from a spiritual perspective, it doesn't matter. Nothing matters. It's all good.

How does that work for you? Did you find yourself nodding in agreement?

No? Why not? The concepts are the SAME. The ONLY difference is that animals are younger souls. That's it. No other difference.

Therefore, your concepts fall flat. 

Unless, of course, you prefer what Q'uo calls the 'dark and bloody path.' Indeed, some prefer it. In that case, yeah, your arguments make sense.

I offered suggestions to the mods that they make a decision about whether this forum is to be unapologetically STO-biased or not, as is Ra. At this point, it isn't. So it's quite alright if some aren't STO-oriented. Hey, whatever works for you, go for it!

But we can never find understanding between us, if you aren't of the Path of Light, the STO path. Our paradigms are just too different. At the time of this forum's inception, I was told that, of course it was designed to be a forum for STO-oriented seekers. But that has changed. I realize now that I can no longer assume that everyone here has the same orientation. That is OK. I just need to make that mental adjustment, which is what I'm doing now.

Your orientation is STO?

This argument sounds very fear based, ignores another's opinion and even judges them as wrong.

You're right, this forum isn't STO oriented, and you're part of that...  Read your posts only imagine you're us.

Believe it or not, the Italics in your quote might be true in some ways.  You just choose not to believe it.
Nothing wrong with that.

But don't defend yourself as STO, it gives those who actually are in a general sense a bad name.

You're like an Orion Crusader, DON'T EAT MEAT OR ELSE YOU'RE A MONSTER, YOU'LL DEPOLARIZE, OR ELSE

Why won't you use STO concepts and accept that not every one chooses the path you have but many similar paths exist?  Why are you acting this way?

You remind me of me Monica.  Just please stop and consider that we're trying to help you understand from our perspectives, and you grossly ignore them for your own then call us not STO then spout to be STO.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=239

The first few posts of this thread made me feel much more inclined to go vegan even.

In fact it makes me feel confident that i can even, gives me positive reasons, the posts make me feel....Comfortable,confident.  They put the door there, gave me what help they had to offer, and defended their opinion without insulting another.

Hemp seeds, mangos, bananas (hereby termed Banas! Lol) and if I can afford it, coconut oil and Apple Cider Vinegar.  Here I coome!

[Monica]

Polarity exists in intent.

Intent is part of the equation, maybe even a big part of the equation. But it isn't the whole equation.

You judge what polarizes myself based off your own heart instead of mine.

?? I've never judged you personally. Never.

...

[Monica]

So, using Law of One ideals, you've turned the Philosophy into a judgment system synonymous with Human Justice Systems, of your own Judgment.

That's quite a stretch there. I was simply drawing an analogy, to make a point.

Okay, that's all the knowledge I needed to comprehend why you've been so violent spiritually towards the decisions of others.

VIOLENT??? Oh that's rich! The person pleading with others to change from violent eating choices to peaceful ones, is accused of being violent? LOL!

I empathize with the reasoning, and the approach.  But veganism is a door.  You can't shove people through it, they'll just resist.  

That's just silly. No one is being shoved anywhere. No one forced anyone to participate in this discussion. All came in the door willingly.

using spiritual principles to scare people into doing it i.e. If you eat meat you'll depolarize and not graduate, is not much different from depolarizing your self by trying to control what another does.

That's ridiculous. I haven't threatened anyone nor tried to 'scare' anyone. If you feel totally comfortable with your choices, then nothing I could say would matter.

This is a spiritual discussion. Spiritual principles are very much ON-topic. All of my comments have been ON-topic.

You're ignoring Law of One concepts to use Law of One in your own distorted manner, not much different from I.  Will you at least admit that?  If I need to explain how, well, there's a door, I can't push you through it.  You need to have the openmind to step through and consider what's being made apparent to you.

I don't 'have' to do anything.

Again, not calling you wrong, trying to show you how you're depolarizing yourself.

You're off-topic.

...

[Monica]

Your orientation is STO?

This argument sounds very fear based, ignores another's opinion and even judges them as wrong.

You're right, this forum isn't STO oriented, and you're part of that...  Read your posts only imagine you're us.

Believe it or not, the Italics in your quote might be true in some ways.  You just choose not to believe it.
Nothing wrong with that.

But don't defend yourself as STO, it gives those who actually are in a general sense a bad name.

You're like an Orion Crusader, DON'T EAT MEAT OR ELSE YOU'RE A MONSTER, YOU'LL DEPOLARIZE, OR ELSE

Why won't you use STO concepts and accept that not every one chooses the path you have but many similar paths exist?  Why are you acting this way?

You remind me of me Monica.  Just please stop and consider that we're trying to help you understand from our perspectives, and you grossly ignore them for your own then call us not STO then spout to be STO.

Oh my.  

I don't have to defend myself to you.

But I do have a question for you, if you care to answer:

If this were about a human holocaust, instead of an animal holocaust, of billions of humans being enslaved, raped, tortured, and murdered every single year, and most of you were directly supporting it and could easily - easily! - quit supporting it, and I was trying to raise awareness about it, would you be telling me this?

...

[upensmoke]

dude i think the major disagreement is that your mind state and actions seem to fall under the identity of STS using the LOO as a reference while you claim its its STO. An STO bias only towards humans is an STS bias towards all other entities not seen as humans. All STS indviduals see the inherent one-ness in all things. Because they see this One-ness Some think it doesn't matter to cause suffering or ignore suffering. First, it doesnt matter to cause this suffering or ignore this suffering because all is one and there is no right or wrong. But feel that based off of what i read your perception of the identity of your polarity is distorted to falsity in regards to meat eating.

Ra: I am Ra. The Law of One, though beyond the limitations of name, as you call vibratory sound complexes, may be approximated by stating that all things are one, that there is no polarity, no right or wrong, no disharmony, but only IDENTITY. All is one, and that one is love/light, light/love, the Infinite Creator.

Polarity exists in intent. You judge what polarizes myself based off your own heart instead of mine. The reason I do believe it doesn't polarize me negatively is that I also do not think being vegan would polarizes myself positively as of now. Now the impact of this usually stagnant energy and what I make of it is an another matter in itself.

I do not believe I have preferences about humans, there exists sufferings across this entire world I am not doing anything about. You seem to think I feel no compassion toward animals whatsoever, what I meant by being indiferrent is that I do not feel that I am infringing on free will in my meat consumption.

I agree that polarity exist in intent, but i also believe polarity exist in the actual action as well as the outcome of the action, and also the awareness of the entity of the entire situation. I think we fundamentally disagree on the rest besides intent.

also on a personal level i feel the word judge implies a right or wrong attitude as well as an attachment. I feel that the phrase "I perceive what polarizes you based off my own my understanding of the channeling of the Law of One."  would be more accurate on how i feel. I personally do not care if you eat meat and what you believe the polarity of your actions are, im just trying to find an understanding which i felt i have found and continuing to grow

Elros Tar-Minyatur my major disagreement is that extrapolating from your logic as to how your meat eating is either not polorizing or is not STS. You would have been the type of person who would have owned a human slave and say its STO or niether because of the reason that this is his souls choice to be a slave and you as one person freeing their slave won't have any impact on the state of slavery as a whole. Do you agree with this logic ? if not could you explain why. Please and thank you.

I guess I am the kind of person that uses money every day despite thinking it is soaked in blood.

Yes i am too, but I feel money is a bad example, cuz it is just a tool, i feel the idea of paying taxes is a much better example. Our taxes help kill people as well as cause war. I believe every american who pays taxes and is AWARE of the STS aspect of taxes are polarizing to some degree in a STS fashion, and equally everyone who pays taxes and is AWARE of the STO aspects will gain STO Polarity. why do you think the rich are so good at avoiding taxes Lol. 

In conclusion i think the fundamental difference fall to what you believe is actually polarizing compared to what i believe is polarizing to an individual. With that said i believe an entities awareness as well as their intent in choice are the two most important aspects when determining polarization. I know some will disagree.

[Diana]

Your orientation is STO?

This argument sounds very fear based, ignores another's opinion and even judges them as wrong.

You're right, this forum isn't STO oriented, and you're part of that...  Read your posts only imagine you're us.

Believe it or not, the Italics in your quote might be true in some ways.  You just choose not to believe it.
Nothing wrong with that.

But don't defend yourself as STO, it gives those who actually are in a general sense a bad name.

You're like an Orion Crusader, DON'T EAT MEAT OR ELSE YOU'RE A MONSTER, YOU'LL DEPOLARIZE, OR ELSE

Why won't you use STO concepts and accept that not every one chooses the path you have but many similar paths exist?  Why are you acting this way?

You remind me of me Monica.  Just please stop and consider that we're trying to help you understand from our perspectives, and you grossly ignore them for your own then call us not STO then spout to be STO.

My dear TP, this tirade on Monica is an example how she (and others discussing this subject from the point of view of vegetarian or vegan) is maligned for things that simply aren't true. Try and understand the following:

1. We are all discussing, not converting or pushing anyone into changing. If you can see things this way, that this is only a discussion, it will change the perception that Monica or anyone else is acting in any way that violates anyone's free will.

2. Can we allow that we all want honesty here? Some vegetarians or vegans may be totally okay with others eating meat, and this will have degrees of concern all the way to activists giving their lives to the service of freeing animals from this tortuous system. While in this discussion, I wouldn't expect anyone to pretend they think meat eating is okay if they feel otherwise. That they may state this here does not in any way infringe upon anyone's free will. It is only that person's opinion, just as some have opinions here that B4 is not run well. That doesn't mean the admin's free will is being infringed upon.

3. The emphasis, ironically, is put on human free will from the point of view of many. Nothing WRONG with that. But can you imagine that some might see things in a different way? That the free will of humans is no more important than the free will (realizing that it may be different in nature) of other species? In this context, and given that this is a DISCUSSION not an inquisition, can you allow these differences of opinion io be voiced and not treated as controlling?

4. Why not assume the best of everyone, rather than the worst? Why not believe Monica or anyone else here and trust what they say? What does anyone have to lose by doing this? 

5. When I feel the urge to point the finger, that is a clue to me that I should look within. I have made this a practice and it is very helpful. I ask myself why I am triggered. I try to observe the situation dispassionately from the point of view of an objective observer. This is a very volatile subject, which suggests that it is GOOD we are exploring a catalysts with such a loud voice, beckoning us to see what is going on.

[Jade]

This is what Ra says when Don asks him about acceptance leading to inaction being the basis of the Law of One:

42.7 Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for this in third density. Many entities here feel great compassion toward relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, bringing them food if there is hunger as there is in the African nations now, bringing them medicine if they believe they require administering to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.

This is creating a polarization or a vibration that is in harmony with green ray or fourth density. However, it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth density that these entities are experiencing catalyst and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth density than it would be to administer to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.

On the other hand, however, you are correct in your assumption that the green ray response is not as refined as that which has been imbued with wisdom. This wisdom enables the entity to appreciate its contributions to the planetary consciousness by the quality of its being without regard to activity or behavior which expects results upon visible planes.

I know I just posted this, but I think there is implied polarity in the decision of inaction vs action when you are aware of a need in an other-self that you can address.

[Nicholas]

Metaphysically I don't think that logic works in the same way...

The Payer: "I have an assignment for you. I am offering you double your normal fee. Your track record is exemplary and I would be happy to do business with you again."

The Assassin picks up the documents from the table and begins to read. He smiles then picks up the brown envelope. He raises one eyebrow as this is the first time he has ever been offered full payment in advance as well as double the amount. 

The Assassin: "You can consider it done."

The Assassin takes care of business but gets caught by law enforcement. To maintain his professionalism he remains silent during his trial and is convicted of murdering a notorious rival to The Payer.

Looking through the lens of the Law of One as I perceive it, The Payer has successfully polarised towards the negative as another negatively oriented being has done his bidding for him without coercion. No karma results, more power does.
The Assassin however took great pride in his reputation but it has become significantly damaged. The opportunity to continue learning the ways of the negative path is greatly reduced by being placed in isolation while on death row. Due to the emotional attachment with his failure he accrues Karma.

So I think attachment is the key when looking at law from a metaphysical or universal perspective, which is the difference between the gameboard and the Gameboard. In other words the Assassin is playing on the gameboard (creating karma) while The Payer is playing on the Gameboard (polarising).

I emphatically disagree and have no idea how you concluded that. Why do you think the Payer is playing on the Gameboard but the Assassin isn't?
Where did you get this idea that it all depends on attachment? And why do you think the Payer is polarizing whereas the Assassin isn't?

My conclusions stem from my interpretation of the LOO, albeit a distorted one at that. I believe the Payer in this make belief scenario could potentially reach graduation towards the negative because they were born into an elite family circle, they intuitively understand free will and do not get their hands dirty (I am using the Payer in this scene interchangeably with an "elite") That to me represents being on the Gameboard simply because of his position and his harvestable potential. In contrast, I believe that the Assassin is not on the Gameboard because of his emotional attachment to what transpired. How can the Assassin control or manipulate another while in solitary confinement? Beyond that though the very idea of putting someone to death for causing death is essentially a hypocritical act. Belief systems however conceal this contradiction, at least in my eyes.
Focusing on the idea of attachment though I must stress that this is my subjective interpretation upon contemplating this bolded passage from the LOO...

35.8 Questioner: Well in that case I would like to know the motivation for this use of Abraham Lincoln’s body at that time?
Ra: I am Ra. This shall be the last full query of this session as we find the instrument quite low in vital energies.

The one known as Abraham had an extreme difficulty in many ways and, due to physical, mental, and spiritual pain, was weary of life but without the orientation to self-destruction. In your time, 1853, this entity was contacted in sleep by a fourth-density being. This being was concerned with the battle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness which have been waged in fourth density for many of your years.

This entity accepted the honor/duty of completing the one known as Abraham’s karmic patterns and the one known as Abraham discovered that this entity would attempt those things which the one known as Abraham desired to do but felt it could not. Thus the exchange was made.

The entity, Abraham, was taken to a plane of suspension until the cessation of its physical vehicle much as though we of Ra would arrange with this instrument to remain in the vehicle, come out of the trance state, and function as this instrument, leaving this instrument’s mind and spirit complex in its suspended state.

The planetary energies at this time were at what seemed to this entity to be at a critical point, for that which you know as freedom had gained in acceptance as a possibility among many peoples. This entity saw the work done by those beginning the democratic concept of freedom, as you call it, in danger of being abridged or abrogated by the rising belief and use of the principle of the enslavement of entities. This is a negative concept of a fairly serious nature in your density. This entity, therefore, went forward into what it saw as the battle for the light, for healing of a rupture in the concept of freedom.

This entity did not gain or lose karma by these activities due to its detachment from any outcome. Its attitude throughout was one of service to others, more especially to the downtrodden or enslaved. The polarity of the individual was somewhat, but not severely, lessened by the cumulative feelings and thought-forms which were created due to large numbers of entities leaving the physical plane due to trauma of battle.

So I assume the same rules apply no matter what side you are batting for. If we take any of this personally, we attach ourselves to this density and "drop off the Gameboard".

You cannot know whether the Assassin polarizes, or in which direction, just because he is in isolation on death row. It all depends on what he chooses to do with his time

In actuality of course I can't possibly know, however I am the creator of this story and have merely developed your initial analogy into a narrative in order to query it's accuracy.

If, on the other hand, he responds to the isolation by nurturing his hatred, and never has any remorse for his deeds, but instead plots his escape and plans more killing as soon as he is freed, then he continues polarizing to STS. Whether he actually kills or not is irrelevant. What sort of catalyst he has is irrelevant. What is relevant is how he responds to that catalyst, whether in prison or on the street.

I agree with your own narrative  

Both have catalyst. Karma is simply more catalyst, based on our response to catalyst. Both men in this example are accumulating more karma. Everyone does, regardless of their choices, until they graduate from this density.

I disagree. Attachments and aversions create and perpetuate karma. The Payer in this regard is no more creating karma than the orion group are. He is offering temptations and influence. Responsibility begins and ends with the self. The Assassin is solely responsible for the murder just like humans are solely responsible for the past and present wars on this planet.

Both are playing on the gameboard.

A game requires 2 players or teams. If either neggie or pozzie succeeds in graduating then they have successfully played on the Gameboard. The gameboard (lowercase) is a metaphor for our third density illusion. The Gameboard is a metaphor for why we are in it (although I am sure you get that). Any portion of the Creator that graduates to 4D negative has successfully played the Game and no longer needs to return to the gameboard . All of what I say here is how I perceive things and my perception of how I think things are will always be subject to review or refinement.

I need to take my leave but will answer your counter question tomorrow. Meanwhile Monica,

Huuuuuuuug!

[Monica]

My conclusions stem from my interpretation of the LOO, albeit a distorted one at that. I believe the Payer in this make belief scenario could potentially reach graduation towards the negative because they were born into an elite family circle, they intuitively understand free will and do not get their hands dirty (I am using the Payer in this scene interchangeably with an "elite") That to me represents being on the Gameboard simply because of his position and his harvestable potential. In contrast, I believe that the Assassin is not on the Gameboard because of his emotional attachment to what transpired. How can the Assassin control or manipulate another while in solitary confinement? Beyond that though the very idea of putting someone to death for causing death is essentially a hypocritical act. Belief systems however conceal this contradiction, at least in my eyes.
Focusing on the idea of attachment though I must stress that this is my subjective interpretation upon contemplating this bolded passage from the LOO...

35.8 Questioner: Well in that case I would like to know the motivation for this use of Abraham Lincoln’s body at that time?
Ra: I am Ra. This shall be the last full query of this session as we find the instrument quite low in vital energies.

The one known as Abraham had an extreme difficulty in many ways and, due to physical, mental, and spiritual pain, was weary of life but without the orientation to self-destruction. In your time, 1853, this entity was contacted in sleep by a fourth-density being. This being was concerned with the battle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness which have been waged in fourth density for many of your years.

This entity accepted the honor/duty of completing the one known as Abraham’s karmic patterns and the one known as Abraham discovered that this entity would attempt those things which the one known as Abraham desired to do but felt it could not. Thus the exchange was made.

The entity, Abraham, was taken to a plane of suspension until the cessation of its physical vehicle much as though we of Ra would arrange with this instrument to remain in the vehicle, come out of the trance state, and function as this instrument, leaving this instrument’s mind and spirit complex in its suspended state.

The planetary energies at this time were at what seemed to this entity to be at a critical point, for that which you know as freedom had gained in acceptance as a possibility among many peoples. This entity saw the work done by those beginning the democratic concept of freedom, as you call it, in danger of being abridged or abrogated by the rising belief and use of the principle of the enslavement of entities. This is a negative concept of a fairly serious nature in your density. This entity, therefore, went forward into what it saw as the battle for the light, for healing of a rupture in the concept of freedom.

This entity did not gain or lose karma by these activities due to its detachment from any outcome. Its attitude throughout was one of service to others, more especially to the downtrodden or enslaved. The polarity of the individual was somewhat, but not severely, lessened by the cumulative feelings and thought-forms which were created due to large numbers of entities leaving the physical plane due to trauma of battle.

So I assume the same rules apply no matter what side you are batting for. If we take any of this personally, we attach ourselves to this density and "drop off the Gameboard".

Ah, I see now why you view it that way. I view it differently.

In my interpretation, lack of attachment doesn't negate karma. What is karma? It is catalyst. What is catalyst? Events/energies set in place by our Higher Self to facilitate the ability to 'do work' which is to learn/evolve as a result of our response to that catalyst.

In the Lincoln scenario, the walk-in didn't walk in, to do work. The entity walked in, to accomplish a mission. That is entirely different from the original Lincoln entity, who was enmeshed in his life and thus probably had myriad attachments to people and events taking place.

Had the walk-in become attached to the original Lincoln's life, then he too would have become enmeshed in those people and events, ie. karmic connections, and thus the tendrils of karma would have attached themselves to him as well.

But he didn't. He just swooped in, did his job, and left, without taking on the heavy karma of the entity whose body he inhabited.

Not only that, but Ra didn't just say he was detached. Ra also indicated that the walk-in was dedicated to service to others.

This means that, an entity can simultaneously be detached to outcome and dedicated to service.

I don't think this means that, in every case of detachment, there isn't any karma. I think it just means that, in this particular case - Lincoln - the walk-in didn't take on Lincoln's karma.

Plus, since the entity was simultaneously detached to outcome and yet dedicated to service, in this case STO service, then it logically follows that an entity could possibly be simultaneously detached to outcome and yet dedicated to STS service.

Both have catalyst. Karma is simply more catalyst, based on our response to catalyst. Both men in this example are accumulating more karma. Everyone does, regardless of their choices, until they graduate from this density.

I disagree. Attachments and aversions create and perpetuate karma.

In the case of Lincoln's walk-in, the walk-in managed to avoid getting entangled in Lincoln's karma, by detaching from it and focusing on his mission.

For most of us, who aren't walk-ins, we all have catalyst. Karma is simply the mechanism that turns the wheel of catalyst generation. It has nothing to do with attachment/detachment and everything to do with whether we do work in response to catalyst, or whether that catalyst is wasted, in which case the wheel of karma generates more catalyst, until we make efficient use of it and can move on to the next lesson.

The Assassin is solely responsible for the murder just like humans are solely responsible for the past and present wars on this planet.

The Assassin isn't the only one responsible. Yes, the Assassin is solely responsible for his own part in it. But the Payor is equally responsible for his own part in it. Both are responsible.

A game requires 2 players or teams. If either neggie or pozzie succeeds in graduating then they have successfully played on the Gameboard. The gameboard (lowercase) is a metaphor for our third density illusion. The Gameboard is a metaphor for why we are in it (although I am sure you get that). Any portion of the Creator that graduates to 4D negative has successfully played the Game and no longer needs to return to the gameboard . All of what I say here is how I perceive things and my perception of how I think things are will always be subject to review or refinement.

Ah, I see where our disagreement is. Are you saying that one plays on the Gameboard only if they succeed in polarizing to the point of harvestability?

I see it differently. In my view, one plays on the Gameboard when they become aware that there is a game.

Playing on the Gameboard is entirely independent of being harvestable. Many entities are harvested who never realized that there is a game; likewise, many entities become aware that there is a game, and begin to play consciously on the Gameboard, yet don't reach harvestability.

Playing the game consciously - recognizing that there is a reason for life and consciously working with catalyst - is what propels the entity to the level of the Gameboard, instead of just continuing to float in the river of life, being tossed about, without any conscious understanding, which is the gameboard.

I need to take my leave but will answer your counter question tomorrow. Meanwhile Monica,

Huuuuuuuug!

Well goodness gracious, thank you Nicholas! Hugs to you too!    

[Monica]

Nicholas, you brought up a very good point here, in the quote you just posted:

The planetary energies at this time were at what seemed to this entity to be at a critical point, for that which you know as freedom had gained in acceptance as a possibility among many peoples. This entity saw the work done by those beginning the democratic concept of freedom, as you call it, in danger of being abridged or abrogated by the rising belief and use of the principle of the enslavement of entities. This is a negative concept of a fairly serious nature in your density. This entity, therefore, went forward into what it saw as the battle for the light, for healing of a rupture in the concept of freedom.

This entity did not gain or lose karma by these activities due to its detachment from any outcome. Its attitude throughout was one of service to others, more especially to the downtrodden or enslaved.

So, Ra stated that enslavement of entities is a NEGATIVE concept of a 'fairly SERIOUS' nature:exclamation:  :exclamation:  :exclamation:

And here people were giving me a hard time because I dared to state that consciously, knowingly contributing to the unnecessary enslavement of sentient entities is inherently STS??

I didn't even remember this Ra quote. To me, it was just so obvious that enslaving other entities is STS. I mean, DUH!

But there it is, right there. I need to change my view. It isn't inherently STS; It IS STS!

Not only is it STS, but it's SERIOUSLY STS!!

Not only that, but Ra stated that Lincoln's walk-in went forward into what it saw as the battle for the light, for healing of a rupture in the concept of freedom, and yet now, if some of us dare to do what Lincoln's walk-in did, in a PEACEFUL way, without even any violence, we are accused of being controlling, judgmental, violent, even STS ourselves!

...while continuing to argue that it's ok to continue to enslave those entities...because...because...you like the taste of bacon???

Holy crap people, just READ what Ra said right there and apply it to what vegans are trying to do for the entities that are currently enslaved!!

Then extrapolate from that: What does that indicate about the people doing the enslaving?

Do the math folks!

...

[Minyatur]

dude i think the major disagreement is that your mind state and actions seem to fall under the identity of STS using the LOO as a reference while you claim its its STO. An STO bias only towards humans is an STS bias towards all other entities not seen as humans. All STS indviduals see the inherent one-ness in all things. Because they see this One-ness Some think it doesn't matter to cause suffering or ignore suffering. First, it doesnt matter to cause this suffering or ignore this suffering because all is one and there is no right or wrong. But feel that based off of what i read your perception of the identity of your polarity is distorted to falsity in regards to meat eating.

Ra: I am Ra. The Law of One, though beyond the limitations of name, as you call vibratory sound complexes, may be approximated by stating that all things are one, that there is no polarity, no right or wrong, no disharmony, but only IDENTITY. All is one, and that one is love/light, light/love, the Infinite Creator.

Polarity exists in intent. You judge what polarizes myself based off your own heart instead of mine. The reason I do believe it doesn't polarize me negatively is that I also do not think being vegan would polarizes myself positively as of now. Now the impact of this usually stagnant energy and what I make of it is an another matter in itself.

I do not believe I have preferences about humans, there exists sufferings across this entire world I am not doing anything about. You seem to think I feel no compassion toward animals whatsoever, what I meant by being indiferrent is that I do not feel that I am infringing on free will in my meat consumption.

I agree that polarity exist in intent, but i also believe polarity exist in the actual action as well as the outcome of the action, and also the awareness of the entity of the entire situation. I think we fundamentally disagree on the rest besides intent.

also on a personal level i feel the word judge implies a right or wrong attitude as well as an attachment. I feel that the phrase "I perceive what polarizes you based off my own my understanding of the channeling of the Law of One."  would be more accurate on how i feel. I personally do not care if you eat meat and what you believe the polarity of your actions are, im just trying to find an understanding which i felt i have found and continuing to grow

Elros Tar-Minyatur my major disagreement is that extrapolating from your logic as to how your meat eating is either not polorizing or is not STS. You would have been the type of person who would have owned a human slave and say its STO or niether because of the reason that this is his souls choice to be a slave and you as one person freeing their slave won't have any impact on the state of slavery as a whole. Do you agree with this logic ? if not could you explain why. Please and thank you.

I guess I am the kind of person that uses money every day despite thinking it is soaked in blood.

Yes i am too, but I feel money is a bad example, cuz it is just a tool, i feel the idea of paying taxes is a much better example. Our taxes help kill people as well as cause war. I believe every american who pays taxes and is AWARE of the STS aspect of taxes are polarizing to some degree in a STS fashion, and equally everyone who pays taxes and is AWARE of the STO aspects will gain STO Polarity. why do you think the rich are so good at avoiding taxes Lol. 

In conclusion i think the fundamental difference fall to what you believe is actually polarizing compared to what i believe is polarizing to an individual. With that said i believe an entities awareness as well as their intent in choice are the two most important aspects when determining polarization. I know some will disagree.

Well if your point is that I am not giving my earnest in applying thoughtful decisions for the best of others in everything that I do, then you are right.

This however does not mean I do not have a positive leaning nor that the focus in my intents can't see things in ways that I do not polarize negatively in doing something that would polarize most negatively.

Me having a positive leaning does not negate either that in this density of choice, I will only know what polarity I will end up choosing when I will leave these planes.

[Minyatur]

If you had the power to erase all 2D animal sufferings that have occurred on this planet because of humans, would you?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Well, I tried at least.

This is an example of why being the change is null.

When you are ready to see how you are being, in a sense of what Aaron and Quo has called 'Spiritual Violence' then please ask..

In the mean time I'm supposed to be the change. You haven't abided too much by the guidelines even as I've tried various methods of trying to reach you.

I'll make my leave from this thread now.