Revised question: Your country in 3D no longer exists when Earth goes 4D ?

[thefool]

actually such biases and behavior forms exist even in 2d. starting with herd hierarchies, only the conditionings/biases, societal values of any given society, herd change the equality situation into one of inequality. so much that, behavior differences (ie, some of which can be called primitive, basic societal values) can be observed among different groups of advanced 2d species, living isolated, separate from each other.

I think we agree on the idea of biases in entities leading each to chart their own course. Ra has also talked about this. This creates differentiation. That is the nature of the diversity that we see.

But I think that a socialist systems tries to ignore this fact and tries to make everybody and everything equal. They don't trust in the people's abilities to make sound choices for them. They know more than the uneducated people and would rather do the choosing for them. This creates a ruling elite in the government that controls all the resources and means to distribute them. The corrupt manipulative STS elites are naturally attracted towards these top government positions and create a strong hold on them. They try this centralized command and control planning with people having very little say about their lives. Does it not sound like STS hierarchy...

Anyways, going back to the original topic- No body knows for sure but I imaging 4d+ it is more like a system of self governing entities working together on the spur of the moment. And the overall pictures just emerges organically out of their actions. Their is no central planning commission guiding everybody or taking mental polls...

[unity100]

But I think that a socialist systems tries to ignore this fact and tries to make everybody and everything equal. They don't trust in the people's abilities to make sound choices for them. They know more than the uneducated people and would rather do the choosing for them. This creates a ruling elite in the government that controls all the resources and means to distribute them. The corrupt manipulative STS elites are naturally attracted towards these top government positions and create a strong hold on them. They try this centralized command and control planning with people having very little say about their lives. Does it not sound like STS hierarchy...

Your understanding of the concept socialism, is apparently biased with rather right wing indoctrination of the cold war era western world.

equality and choice are irrelevant. equality means equal rights, equal status. supposedly, it is the thing that is purportedly provided in western regimes, but, somehow, noone has any equal rights or power to anything. its just in naming.

in the logic of socialism, you would still make your choice, what job to do, where to do, who to marry, what to eat, what not to eat. yet, your opportunities and rights to making those choices and using them would be equal with anybody else.

all the other things you speak of, ie 'educated making choices for uneducated', centralized governments and totalitarian regimes and whatnot, are relevant to the eastern bloc history on this planet, and the methods they employed.

these are not relevant to socialism or any political idea. these regions have always been repressive culturally throughout history. back in 3000 bc they were raiders with a patriarchal repressive brutal society, when christianity came they turned into authoritarian regimes with feudalism, when revolution came they turned into repressive authoritarianism, when 'democracy' came they turned into presidential dictatorships with mafia.

however, because these countries were the ones to try out socialism first, their history is translated as socialism and left history.

on the other hand there are countries like sweden, who are not socialist in naming, but has been employing socialist practices to extreme since 60 years. there is whole a lot of different history there.

not surprisingly the situation was similarly different throughout that region's cultural history. women and men were equal in pre-christianity, and everyone was free, when serfdom came, it almost havent come, so that you couldnt tell who was serf who was the lord, when christianity and its repression in middle ages came, one of the most traded products in that region was still bras that supported women's breasts, so much that one can understand that the repression against women didnt take hold in there at all, they were one of the first to incorporate the new ideals of freedom, and in 20th century that trend continued.

so, the concepts you speak of, are, apparently not relevant to the system or the thought, but culture.

Anyways, going back to the original topic- No body knows for sure but I imaging 4d+ it is more like a system of self governing entities working together on the spur of the moment. And the overall pictures just emerges organically out of their actions. Their is no central planning commission guiding everybody or taking mental polls...

and what if, in the spur of the moment, in 4d, i decide to experiment with a fusion reactor that can blow the entire planet off ...

[thefool]

[quote='thefool' pid='20479' dateline='1285979425']
Your understanding of the concept socialism, is apparently biased with rather right wing indoctrination of the cold war era western world.

We already covered biases, didn't we. We all have biases that is what makes us different. It will be delusional to think that we should not have any biases. I don't think it is indoctrination though as my thought have changed extreme liberal to rather conservative based upon my own observations.

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equality and choice are irrelevant. equality means equal rights, equal status. supposedly, it is the thing that is purportedly provided in western regimes, but, somehow, noone has any equal rights or power to anything. its just in naming.

That is not correct based upon my experience and observations. I find that western system is not perfect but provides more choices and ability to drive your own life. While the socialism systems are run by dictatorship.

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however, because these countries were the ones to try out socialism first, their history is translated as socialism and left history.

Well !!! I go by what has been the history so far. And there is a reason it has failed every time regardless of the cultural parameters. There is a reason for this. Whenever there is a concentration of power in few hands (the group that is allocating the resources); the corruption sets in. This is regardless of the culture as human condition is the same.

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and what if, in the spur of the moment, in 4d, i decide to experiment with a fusion reactor that can blow the entire planet off ...

The true freedom allows you to do what you choose to do even though it my seem destructive.

In this scenario- other entities will end up using their freedom to self defense and safety. The higher entities may also intervene. Or everyone just enjoy this whole blowing off experience. Off to the next planet; yipee... no pain no fear just experience....Self governance does not translate into no governance. It does means no one is dictating to you, the dos and the don'ts...

This scenario is likely in 4D negative as it is quite different and I have been talking for 4D positive only unless mentioned specifically.

[unity100]

We already covered biases, didn't we. We all have biases that is what makes us different. It will be delusional to think that we should not have any biases. I don't think it is indoctrination though as my thought have changed extreme liberal to rather conservative based upon my own observations.

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from the usage of word liberal, and conservative, i understand that you are an american. word liberal is used in america instead of social democrat. moreover, it is used rather in the opposite meaning around europe. however, the practice of that there cannot even go near socialism, social democracy as it has been employed in europe.

cultural differences, traits, define everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

observe top 10 countries in regard to humanely important development. most of these have been employing social democrat governments for long durations in the last 60 years.

That is not correct based upon my experience and observations. I find that western system is not perfect but provides more choices and ability to drive your own life. While the socialism systems are run by dictatorship.

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totally to the contrary.

the current western system is the perfect negative sts enslavement system. entities, are enslaved by their own free will in that system.

everything requires money. even being able to access any opportunity that would require your chances, require money. (college, investment, capital etc). if you are born to a poor family, chances are very low that you will get any opportunities.

healthcare requires money. if you dont have money, you dont receive proper healthcare. you simply left to die slowly with token treatment. its even worse in some places apparently.

food requires money. if you dont have money, you will have to oblige with charities, most of which carry accompanying philosophical, religious or other undertones and indoctrination with them. moreover, you wont be even able to rely on even them for too long.

justice requires money. the more money you have, the more justice you get. big corporations easily trample citizens, and even class action lawsuits as such in usa recently are not coming up too good.

money buys laws, and changes everything.

everything requires money, and the more of that you have, you can have more of that. the less, less.

current western system creates a hierarchical food chain, which is a pyramid. lets see an example :

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesameric...ealth.html

as you can see, bottom 80% of the society, gets only 15% of total wealth.

whereas, top 1% has a whopping 35% of total wealth. with the addition of next 4%, top 5% of society owns a whopping 62% of total worth. if you dare add the next top 5% to that, it becomes such a picture :

90% of society can only get 27%, whereas top 10% owns 72% of entire wealth.

this is worse than the distribution of income/wealth in middle ages, during serfdom. back then, serfs laboring the land for lord had 33% rights to all produce from the land, and, economy was exclusively, almost entirely, land based. therefore, it can easily be said that, distribution of wealth, and actually means of generating wealth, was more fair. church had 33%, and lord had 33% rights, by feudal law.

so, currently the situation in america is worse than middle ages.

also there is the 'competition' issue. competition, instead of cooperation and collaboration, is a token of negative systems. one gets the thing, the others gets nothing, or less. its a perfect excuse for inequality.

there are a lot more pointers.

.........

ironically, i have been a right wing, 'free-market', 'capitalist' person throughout 33 years. and my education too. only recently, merging all i know from history, spiritualism and recent events and statistics, woke me up to the deal.

Well !!! I go by what has been the history so far. And there is a reason it has failed every time regardless of the cultural parameters. There is a reason for this. Whenever there is a concentration of power in few hands (the group that is allocating the resources); the corruption sets in. This is regardless of the culture as human condition is the same.

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as you can see from human development index, nothing has failed.

the history written and spoken in america, consciously ignores the socialist governments which dominated northern europe for the last 60 years. in some of those countries the system is free market only in name, almost. with personal income taxes being so high, and the social security network being that strong.

americans are intentionally being left in the dark about countries which are doing phenomenally better than them, so that they will be content and happy with what they have.

and if it comes to it, concentration of power and distribution of resources speedily sets into the hands of a few private elite in capitalist systems. because these owners are private, you dont have any legal rights to challenge them, and you cant do anything against them. unless you prevent that concentration from happening, like the measures against monopoly put by theodore roosevelt. had these measures not been taken at the turn of the century, usa would entirely be owned by 6 to 10 wealthy individuals, with no reprise.

now, it is being owned by 6 to 10 big conglomerates, eventually unfolding to the ownership of similar number of families through proxies anyway.

The true freedom allows you to do what you choose to do even though it my seem destructive.

In this scenario- other entities will end up using their freedom to self defense and safety. The higher entities may also intervene. Or everyone just enjoy this whole blowing off experience. Off to the next planet; yipee... no pain no fear just experience....Self governance does not translate into no governance. It does means no one is dictating to you, the dos and the don'ts...

This scenario is likely in 4D negative as it is quite different and I have been talking for 4D positive only unless mentioned specifically.

what you say means that there is no freedom as such you speak of in 4d. my desire to play with a fusion reactor was prevented. i wasnt able to play with a fusion reactor on that planet, therefore, my freedom was dictated by other parties.

in the case every entity enjoys that blowing off, i may incarnate again, and do it again, even if the other entities do not desire that experience.

[thefool]

so, currently the situation in america is worse than middle ages.

americans are intentionally being left in the dark about countries which are doing phenomenally better than them, so that they will be content and happy with what they have.

Unity, believe what you must !!! If you believe that today's America is worse than middle ages than go for it. What can I say. But I am not going to bash Turkey in return.

BTW, I am an American by choice. I lived in India for first 28 years of my life. So I am well aware of the socialist democracy and speak from experience. Now I can count on you to present something damning against India. America is not perfect but it is a land of opportunity and freedom and there is no doubt about this one in my mind.

You speak about money like it is some sort of evil. That only clarifies your perception of it. Nothing more. It is a tool for exchange. When you don't see it changing hands then people have already been taxed for it. people are paying for it one way or another.

Once again there are STS elements that have infiltrated all parts of our society including capitalists and large corporations. In the same manner they are in the government. Big government and big corporations are both dangerous as they have the power of monopoly.

I am not here to change your mind so feel free to have any opinions. I find it very amusing to say the least. I really learned something new today...

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what you say means that there is no freedom as such you speak of in 4d. my desire to play with a fusion reactor was prevented. i wasnt able to play with a fusion reactor on that planet, therefore, my freedom was dictated by other parties.

in the case every entity enjoys that blowing off, i may incarnate again, and do it again, even if the other entities do not desire that experience.

Freedom is your ability to take actions but the results are not guaranteed. You have freedom to jump in the lake but you would not die from it is not guaranteed.

In this hypothetical scenario of yours- If you keep showing the tendency that alienate you from your social memory complex then you might not incarnate with them again. You will probably incarnate with like minded rabble rousers. There you may be able to join the race to do it first...

[unity100]

Unity, believe what you must !!! If you believe that today's America is worse than middle ages than go for it. What can I say. But I am not going to bash Turkey in return.

yes, it is statistically worse than medieval times. ie, even fewer people have access to all amenities of the society, even among the top 5%. the poor segment is much worse. only, the standards have changed, now, people dont have to live in straw roof houses. however, if you put it in the standards of medieval times in regard to comparison of what the richest segment gets and what the poorest gets, and what are their percentages, current situation comes up worse. (actually, in 1200s england most of the ruling strata wore almost the same clothes, did the same things and ate the same things as serfs).

today while the richest of society goes from city to city with personal jets to have their supper in paris, majority of society works countless hours in places like walmart, and still cant make ends meet properly, leave aside feed a proper family. the divide in between poor and middle class has also got larger, compared to medieval times. not to mention middle class became smaller, and poor class has become bigger.

you should bash turkey too. because, the same regime has been imported here in the last 30 years. now things are going worse by day, people dont have money to buy anything. but, if you look at the statistics, the gdp has increased, national income too. however, income distribution have gone totally the opposite. now people do not have to even put their kids into schools, universities. everything has been privatized, everything requires even increasing amounts of money, and people are going bankrupt. 60 new small businesses are giving their bankruptcy every day in my city, a 3 million one. there are, if im not mistaken, 1 to 3 million credit cards which are in legal proceedings now, and the banks cannot get the debt paid, because people dont have money. everybody owes to everybody, nobody has the money to pay it.

By the way, I am an American by choice. I lived in India for first 28 years of my life. So I am well aware of the socialist democracy and speak from experience. Now I can count on you to present something damning against India. America is not perfect but it is a land of opportunity and freedom and there is no doubt about this one in my mind.

of course there is. and quite damning too. india has been a colony in its past, wasnt able to develop proper industry, education accordingly (it was especially prevented, ie, like the practice of making kids memorize logarithmic tables in schools, by british), and its early days had been in strife, struggle and fight for survival. leaving aside the pakistani and bangladeshi breakup and the problems these have brought, chinese also invaded at one point, and has been a threatening menace for a long time until early 80s. leaving aside the cold war. on top of it, this was a 1 bil country.

there are limits to everything. a social democracy's strength is the education level and awareness of its citizens. north european countries, because they have evaded various wars and strife in the late 19th century and early 20th century, have been able to keep education high. therefore, system and citizens feed each other recursively.

You speak about money like it is some sort of evil. That only clarifies your perception of it. Nothing more. It is a tool for exchange. When you don't see it changing hands then people have already been taxed for it. people are paying for it one way or another.

money is a sort of evil, yes. money means you give something in return for what you take, and the giver expects you to give something in return for what it gives.

this is totally opposite of positive polarization. opposite cannot even be debated - positive means, you give more than what you take, and, towards the 8th d, nearing 99% percentage that way.

that aside, money may be a useful tool for calculating and arranging flow of resources and planning. it could as well be 'resource units'. it wouldnt matter.

however, there is the concept of ownership. once you put the concept of ownership into the mix, it becomes a total negative system setup. (leaving aside the orange ray connotations that accompany concept of 'own'ing something).

Once again there are STS elements that have infiltrated all parts of our society including capitalists and large corporations. In the same manner they are in the government. Big government and big corporations are both dangerous as they have the power of monopoly.

the system currently dominates the planet is not corrupted and infiltrated by sts and therefore negative because of that. it is negative in its core. lets see :

- 'own'ing things. leave aside entities, but also places, resources, and even, concepts. (ip, patents). and being able to decide who uses them, and how much
- more than expecting anything to be given back for something used, but also, due to system's all encompassing nature, forcing everyone to oblige by it. if you dont take things back, you cant survive.
- the ownership ratio of the bigger owners always increase over time. this is inevitable. because there is inheritance. as long as entities inherit things, their shares will increase, even in a supposedly 'perfect' capitalist society. if they do not waste their wealth in casinos, given enough generations, the entire means of production and resource generation would belong to the same family or a group of families.
- these kind of things are prevented by laws. but, this is a socialist practice. even those laws are easily circumvented through big conglomerate chains and proxy ownerships.
- when any private interest monopolizes a certain resource/industry to a certain extent, they become the sole governor of that aspect of life. like procter&gamble, or similar other big low level producers. this stage is inevitable, because corporations are allowed to grow bigger.
- a corporation is a negative construct itself. it is a group of entities as opposed to everyone. the 'own'ing entities get all the profit, whereas they are free to give the ones doing real work, whatever amount they see fit, even token amounts. this is the reason why wages have been going down everywhere, due to the capitalist mechanism. it is ironic that, i have been taught how to do this optimally, in college, was part of my training.
- those are the richest strata of the society automatically become the elite of the society. they replace aristocracy.

there are many more elements that can be directly identified as negative society elements. ranging from competition, to decision mechanisms. however, these are more like details at this moment.

I am not here to change your mind so feel free to have any opinions. I find it very amusing to say the least. I really learned something new today...

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actually you have given me a chance to voice these issues.

these are core issues, yet, all those people who are supposedly polarizing positively, just play along with this system, even support it. it is unbelievable that, positive entities are supporting a negative construct. (if they are really positive, that is). with all the 'own'erships, profits, competition, separation and all that.

i very much think, these are creating difficulties for their spiritual growth and polarization, and if not, for their energy/psychic situations and models, because each thought/belief kept in mind, affects behavior, and each action has reflections in time/space.

Freedom is your ability to take actions but the results are not guaranteed. You have freedom to jump in the lake but you would not die from it is not guaranteed.

In this hypothetical scenario of yours- If you keep showing the tendency that alienate you from your social memory complex then you might not incarnate with them again. You will probably incarnate with like minded rabble rousers. There you may be able to join the race to do it first...

guaranteed ?

what does guaranteed means ? if i am not able to use my freedom in practice in the end, it means there is no freedom ?

so then, if i get inclined to take the liberty of playing with a fusion reactor and blowing it up, the social memory complex i am incarnating with is going to expel me.

so, it means, society complex decides that, repetitively blowing a planet up by playing with a fusion reactor, is not something that can be allowed. therefore, society complex decides, what can and cannot be done .....

[thefool]

actually you have given me a chance to voice these issues.

Well ! I am glad I can be of some help. It can be quite a load to carry. It does explain a lot to me about a thinking process almost alien to me...

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these are core issues, yet, all those people who are supposedly polarizing positively, just play along with this system, even support it. it is unbelievable that, positive entities are supporting a negative construct. (if they are really positive, that is). with all the 'own'erships, profits, competition, separation and all that.

i very much think, these are creating difficulties for their spiritual growth and polarization, and if not, for their energy/psychic situations and models, because each thought/belief kept in mind, affects behavior, and each action has reflections in time/space.

So let's hear what are you going to do about these issues you care so deeply about? What is your plan? How does it change you in your own life? Don't tell me that going from message board to message board and writing long post about it is your plan... I make you king of the world for a year and then what will you do?

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guaranteed ?

what does guaranteed means ? if i am not able to use my freedom in practice in the end, it means there is no freedom ?

so then, if i get inclined to take the liberty of playing with a fusion reactor and blowing it up, the social memory complex i am incarnating with is going to expel me.

so, it means, society complex decides that, repetitively blowing a planet up by playing with a fusion reactor, is not something that can be allowed. therefore, society complex decides, what can and cannot be done .....

Of course you didn't think that your freedom means others don't have any freedom. you have yours and other entities/ group/ complexes have their freedom... you have the freedom to put your hand in fire and fire has freedom to burn it...

[unity100]

So let's hear what are you going to do about these issues you care so deeply about? What is your plan? How does it change you in your own life? Don't tell me that going from message board to message board and writing long post about it is your plan... I make you king of the world for a year and then what will you do?

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i dont understand whether this is a sarcastic question.

what to do for any spiritual progress and positive work is simple. you first realize and understand the situation. you then understand what has to happen. afterwards, you change yourself, and help others wanting to change, to change themselves. eventually society changes.

seemingly, there is no other way to do it. any change that is not brought from within the roots of society, doesnt stay.

Of course you didn't think that your freedom means others don't have any freedom. you have yours and other entities/ group/ complexes have their freedom... you have the freedom to put your hand in fire and fire has freedom to burn it...

that basically means, one's freedom is bound by others' freedom, ie, there is no 'anarchic spiritual freedom' going about abundantly ...

[Questioner]

I realize the "king of the world" comment was in jest, but making anyone king of anything seems like a bad idea to me. This is my own personal opinions.

People polarizing towards STO have longed for 4D+ harmony throughout history. People polarizing towards STS have longed for 4D- centralization of power. Both have tried to create their own version of heaven on earth (or "the other next place" on earth). Both have made up all kinds of man-made systems for politics and economics.

ALL of these systems are mediocre attempts to implement something from beyond 3D that just can't be done in 3D. ALL politics and economics are, pale shadows imitating a greater spiritual reality.

At best, they are tools for a little bit of positive cooperation, a tiny fraction of the way 4D+ harmony brings effortless united action in a way we can only begin to imagine. 4D+ is more joyously loving together, more harmoniously cooperative than we can comprehend this side of the Veil.

At worst, they are tools for a little bit of despotic manipulations, a larger fraction of the way 4D- tries to gain power by subverting individuals into a single focus of free will by those at the top. 4D- is far more ruthless, controlling and controlled than we can really comprehend on this side of the Veil.

There is absolutely nothing that people can do to make heaven on earth through cleaning up politics and getting together with the best economic system. The human desire to transcend 3D and move to something more positive has been misplaced.

This desire should best be used by each person as energy for their own spiritual growth, their own evolution. As they become stronger, more centered in their Choice, they are better able to reach out, link in, attract and join others of the same polarity. This may or may not happen through anything recognizable as politics or economics.

The vast majority of our planet's political, economic or financial systems were deliberately conceived in hateful inequity by a viciously domineering elite. Various lies were made up to tell the people about God, News, Justice, Religion, Defense, Security, Patriotism and Guidance. These lies were used to get positive and undecided people to be tricked into relinquishing their own free will through an emotional appeal that actually makes no sense.

Or these systems were co-opted and perverted by them after a positively inspired start.

The ultimate conspiracy theory is simple: STS people, in their drive to fulfill 4D- on earth, will make a manipulative, backstabbing, hidden conspiracy of elite arrogance ANY chance they get, no matter how noble the original design was, with ANY opportunity to build or take over a pyramid of power against their fellow men. There is always "one last snake in the grass" to expose, and we'll never be rid of them, this side of the Veil or Harvest.

Therefore it is far more likely today that negatively polarized, STS people will find their fulfillment in these power bases. Yes, a positive loving heart of service can do some good through politics. But there are many other equally powerful ways to good, and most don't require paddling upstream.

In my own opinion, u100, your desire for the blessings of socialism to enlighten the whole world shows a sincere caring about justice, balance and love. I respect that you have thought things through. I respect that you feel socialism, as that word means something to you, is by far the best political and economic system man has yet invented. But I believe the goal of harmonious human life can never be fulfilled by ANY type of politics and economics. It can only be met by humans who are harmonious inside their own spirits, and then reach out to choose for themselves their own new way to work together.

[unity100]

socialism is not something man invented. it was probably the first method that was used to organize things, the first time more than one entity came together.

it is simple : everyone works together, everyone decides together, everyone shares.

3 simple points. if one reflects on these, s/he can easily realize these 3, together, are basis that bring positive society complexes into being.

another important point - these are basic lessons in regard to wisdom, ie, the 'dance' of life. the situations, occurrences here, in their basis, will repeat elsewhere.

someone who may be spending some incarnation here today, may be responsible of a society's or a planet's well being in his/her society complex millions of years later. recognizing, and knowing what is occurring, and what they are, will be important to any service that entity or its society complex is doing.

especially the ones who are from 6d.

[thefool]

i dont understand whether this is a sarcastic question.

what to do for any spiritual progress and positive work is simple. you first realize and understand the situation. you then understand what has to happen. afterwards, you change yourself, and help others wanting to change, to change themselves. eventually society changes.

seemingly, there is no other way to do it. any change that is not brought from within the roots of society, doesnt stay.

I like the answer you gave. And I have no time to be sarcastic. Your earlier responses just made me wonder if you were one of those revolutionary types...Who want to take matters into their own hands...hence the questions...

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that basically means, one's freedom is bound by others' freedom,

I can go with that.

Even in anarchy there is an order that we may not realize. In the end all densities are limited by something. If nothing else but the boundaries of their densities. That limitation results in some sort of laws that everything must abide by. But I don't see them as a council of representatives making decisions...

[Questioner]

u100, I'm confused and it might be because you and I are using different definitions.

Here's a typical dictionary definition, in this case from Mirriam-Webster online.

Definition of SOCIALISM
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

What I see here is economics, politics, government, and the state.
The goal of harmonious cooperation you mentioned, which I would also like to see and which I believe occurs naturally and spontaneously in 4D+, seems to not require or have anything to do with economics, politics, government, or the state.

Economics is the study of systematic allocation of scarce resources. In 4D+, resources are not scarce. So economics is irrelevant.
Politics is the use of physical power to enforce economic conclusions. In 4D+, economics is irrelevant and cooperation does not need to be obtained through physical force. So politics is irrelevant.
Government is the monopoly on the use of force over a territory, through trade-offs. In 4D+, territories don't need to be monopolized, and trade-offs are not necssary, so politics is irrelevant.
The state is the institutions and territory of government, therefore also irrelevant in 4D+.

Perhaps it would help if you could say whether you are using any of these three definitions. If not, then I have to confess I do not know what meaning you associate with the word "socialism."

[unity100]

u100, I'm confused and it might be because you and I are using different definitions.

Here's a typical dictionary definition, in this case from Mirriam-Webster online.

Definition of SOCIALISM
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

What I see here is economics, politics, government, and the state.
The goal of harmonious cooperation you mentioned, which I would also like to see and which I believe occurs naturally and spontaneously in 4D+, seems to not require or have anything to do with economics, politics, government, or the state.

Economics is the study of systematic allocation of scarce resources. In 4D+, resources are not scarce. So economics is irrelevant.
Politics is the use of physical power to enforce economic conclusions. In 4D+, economics is irrelevant and cooperation does not need to be obtained through physical force. So politics is irrelevant.
Government is the monopoly on the use of force over a territory, through trade-offs. In 4D+, territories don't need to be monopolized, and trade-offs are not necssary, so politics is irrelevant.
The state is the institutions and territory of government, therefore also irrelevant in 4D+.

Perhaps it would help if you could say whether you are using any of these three definitions. If not, then I have to confess I do not know what meaning you associate with the word "socialism."

we have come to a good and important point i was wanting to vocalize.

first, there are no such thing as 'unlimited resources' or, not scarce resources. in every given density, the amount of energy that can flow through/ can be manifested by any kind of manifesting node, will be defined and limited.

this is a grand rule, but it applies to everything ranging from individual bodies, to the amount of water that flows in a riverbed, to the amount of planets a star can sustain.

basically, there may be unlimited energy and resources behind a node, but, node is the limiter. and, since node is a manifestation that only comes into being by the concept of 'finiteness' being there, (if it was not finite, there wouldnt be a node but just infinity) the node will only be able to channel any kind of energy as much as its manifesting vehicle (or manifestation in general) allows.

so, you cant load 10 million amperes to a copper wire of 1 mm diameter, and expect it to hold. it will snip.

similar is the energy that flows from spirit outside through mind and body. if energy is flowing more than the channels, mind will have to expand and allow more energy first, then the body will have to adjust. if any of these fail, or overloaded, they will break down. madness, or illness.

had it not been as such, it would be a trifle to have neverending channeling sessions, for example. or, do endless meditation. or, any kind of entity which unlocked and manifested higher energies or contacted intelligent infinity, to stay in that state. so far, noone does. because 3d body doesnt handle that much flow.

same goes for any kind of manifestation on this planet. a field will not be able to sustain more crops than it allows. even if everyone shares, a single tree will only be able to give as much fruits as its vehicle and resources it receives can muster. even if everyone becomes mind bogglingly loving, the amount of sunlight falling onto the planet will still be the same.

even with spiritual energy such as love, or blue ray or indigo, there will be limitations due to this basic concept.

so it will be necessary eventually to use anything one has, in a wise and efficient manner.

even if there isnt scarcity, it is so simple ; if the 4d society uses its resources wisely and more efficiently, they will be able to tend, say, 2 3d planets instead of 1. (sending love, for example) dont even need to talk about physical manifestations and their allocation. ie, the vehicles to go to a planet they are to give a service to, will need to be built. resources allocated, things done.

for these to happen, people will need to get organized. just like how the entire universe is organized to function.

some have the impression that everything will 'magically' happen and come to being, 'somehow'. and, everyone will 'just' act in harmony and everything will 'just' be.

there is no such thing, in any given density, in any given manifestation. things, need to happen, for things to happen. and they manifest according to the basic rules that were set at the start of this universe.

lets say you are in 5d, and you conjure some astral object. it came out of nowhere, right ? wrong. you have just taken and changed some form of intelligent energy, etheric or otherwise, into some other form. it didnt just happen from nowhere, you drew it from some kind of place. what happens if you incessantly, carelessly overdraw that kind of energy in the locale you are in, too much ? nothing will happen ? no. something, will happen somewhere in the universe, even if its not directly your locale. and things will eventually need to be balanced, so the taken will need to be given in some other way. this is balance. it cant be balanced without getting balanced. a kind of 'cosmic' karma if you will.

this is why knowing the 'dance', of existence, and being wise is important. those who dont know it, can easily break things while trying to do service to something else. or, may be unable to deliver whats needed.

organization will always stay relevant, all the time. after all, as we learn from Ra, this existence was created in a hierarchical, organized manner. its not something that can be avoided.

and 'government', is not something that is particular to 3d and will magically go away when you change to 4d. because multiple-beingness needs organization, even if only to efficiently function and render more service (or the maximum service that totality can handle), there will need to be organization. even while channeling, 4d entities attend 4d channeling needs and love needs of entities on an 3d planet, and 5d entities attend their ray, and 6d entities serve the ones seeking indigo ray.

it doesnt 'just' happen. all the entities participating in this service know that love needs are better and efficiently served by 4d society complexes, blue ray by 5d, and indigo by 6d, and get organized as such.

the difference is, this planet has a 3d negative society. therefore, the 'government' here is for and by the benefit of minority elite.

the difference of a positive situation, is government becomes all the entities in the society, and it becomes an organization scheme to function.

it is easily understandable that, in a telephatic society, central organization would be needed less and less, due to instant communication and sharing of thoughts, ideas and making decisions thanks to telepathy.

but, this doesnt mean organization and decision making and resource allocation processes etc will just go away. they are features of physical manifestation of multiple beingness.

actually, in early parts of 4d, while entities are just discovering telepathy, and newly creating society complex, it wont be much different from a late 3d society. a planet doesnt just become a wonderfully harmonious and 'synchronized' place with a mere 4d density switch. harmonization and synchronization that is spoken about is a process that continues far into the end of 7d, if we look into what Ra tells about their experience and current seeking. actually it seems the entire story of this octave is that kind of work. thankfully, for this planet, there is internet, so that early stages of 4d wont be without speedy communication.

---

open source development methods that the software world employs, are good examples of such social organization and phenomenon.

---

Even in anarchy there is an order that we may not realize. In the end all densities are limited by something. If nothing else but the boundaries of their densities. That limitation results in some sort of laws that everything must abide by. But I don't see them as a council of representatives making decisions...

all densities are limited and organized by the rules set at the start of creation of this universe by the local manifesting node of infinite intelligence.

the intelligence part in that infinite intelligence is important. its not some random, remote concept. everything in this universe, has come here from that central sun of this universe, and all of them are part of it.

so, practically, the laws and rules governing this universe, was put here by us all. collectively.

in a positive organization method, everyone would participate in decision making process, for every decision. not representatives.

[Questioner]

we have come to a good and important point i was wanting to vocalize.

I appreciate this, your post provides a great deal of clarity about where you are coming from. Thank you for the thorough explanation.

I agree that for everything other than Infinity, there is a limitation, some kind of constraint that distorts and puts a maximum on how much of the Creator is expressed. Thank you for putting that in such an easy to follow way.

I also agree that effective coordination and resource use will be important at higher levels of spiritual existence.

May I see if there's a revised definition which we might agree on.

The human version of 3D economics, is based on allocation of scare physical resources necessary for the basics of survival. Channeled information about 4D+ indicates that beyond the 3D Veil and Harvest, the basics of life survival will no longer be so scarce as to involve questions who gets to live and who must die; all premises based on not enough for everyone to exist and thrive will become irrelevant. 4D+ will involve a higher version of economics, based on coordinated activity to optimally express loving care and service.

The human version of 3D government, is based on a monopoly of force over a geographic territory. Channeled information about 4D+ indicates that beyond the Veil and Harvest, the use of force and the monopoly of demands will not be relevant concepts. Coordination will be on a voluntary, free will basis that is far beyond the limitations of our current experiences with politics.

We can expect that on complete entry into 4D, there will be a learning process. Capabilities and possibilities may be astronomically beyond what we are currently used to; however, there will still be a need for skillful personal action and for coordinated teamwork to make the most of the situation. The specifics of those lessons will change from 3D to 4D, but the need for those lessons and their importance continues.

If you'd agree with this view, then we are actually talking about the same thing. If you disagree, then we have different views about either 3D or 4D+. Finding out the nature of those views, so we can either reach a shared view or agree to disagree, might be productive. I'm certainly willing to keep working at this dialogue.

[thefool]

Folks !!! let me say that I am really enjoying this discussion especially now. I think we have come to a nice place after working through some rough areas. I hope I will be able to stay engaged during the week as much as I was able to during the weekend...

OK. Unity- I can see where you are coming from more clearly after your recent post. I get tripped up with the word government. That has some negative connotations in my mind. But I can visualize a group of entities getting together in a true desire to serve others by helping them get organized or truly helping them achieve something that they care about. So it can be a very nice support and service activity. This group is still not going to dictate anything just support others fulfill their plans. Just like benevolent parents help support their kids. With a true desire to help them grow and prosper...the freedom and free will of the kids is very important in the process... If that is your idea of socialism then I am all for it but not practical on 3D earth , as too difficult to find incorruptible individuals on a consistent basis. We need a system of checks and balances. Where the power is not highly concentrated.

The other thing we talked about is nature's rules that each entity is subjected to, in whatever illusion of density they belong to.

Where I may disagree is the idea that there is limited supply of all things. I think this needs to be corrected to limited supply of all things physical. But unlimited supply of anything non-physical. This universe is a mystery and infinite. There are no edges to it. it is not a box we are in, it is always expanding or contracting for that matter...The spiritual love has no limits. more you give more you shall receive and it just keep on increasing. This is not just a saying, I find it true...We have access to intelligent infinity/energy at all times and infinity by the very definition is not restrictive. let's take an example: the concept of ZERO. no matter how many zeros you take out of zero, zero still remains the same. so one zero can produce infinite other zeros and not reducing even a bit.. Of course the physical love is restricted by time you can give to the loved one and so forth...But the spiritual love the non-physical is not limited, the more you give the more there is to give...

[unity100]

But I can visualize a group of entities getting together in a true desire to serve others by helping them get organized or truly helping them achieve something that they care about. If that is your idea of socialism then I am all for it but not practical on 3D earth , as too difficult to find incorruptible individuals on a consistent basis. We need a system of checks and balances. Where the power is not highly concentrated.

not practical on earth ?

its already being practiced in open source project formats. recently, these formats have moved to hardware production, further than software. there are some organizations, some small charities operating with these principles. some are already proposing governance concepts based on these.

however, one thing still remains ; any entity who wants to remain part of any given group, just like in these projects, or in the fusion reactor 4d society example, will need to oblige with the collective. if not, they can branch the project like in open source projects, and break up, or, like in the 4d fusion reactor example, incarnate in another planet.

but simply, freedoms are not unlimited.

Where I may disagree is the idea that there is limited supply of all things. I think this needs to be corrected to limited supply of all things physical. But unlimited supply of anything non-physical. This universe is a mystery and infinite. There are no edges to it. it is not a box we are in, it is always expanding or contracting for that matter...The spiritual love has no limits. more you give more you shall receive and it just keep on increasing. This is not just a saying, I find it true...We have access to intelligent infinity/energy at all times and infinity by the very definition is not restrictive. let's take an example: the concept of ZERO. no matter how many zeros you take out of zero, zero still remains the same. so one zero can produce infinite other zeros and not reducing even a bit.. Of course the physical love is restricted by time you can give to the loved one and so forth...But the spiritual love the non-physical is not limited, the more you give the more there is to give...

this is incorrect, since space/time and time/space both contain elements from each other. actually, they are just weighted versions of each other.

just like how physicality exists in physical world to have the astral distribute over it, in astral, physicality is distributed over the astral.

physical and nonphysical cannot be separated at any given point. only, their balance and weighting can change.

moreover, since there are still bodies needed in order to manifest in astral plane (time/space bodies in time/space, hence the physicality), the amount of energy that these can channel and shoulder will still be limited with their capacity. and since physicality applies there too, in lessened amount, there may be much more astral energy circulating, but there will still be limits as to any manifesting node, concept, reality can handle and transfer.

The human version of 3D economics, is based on allocation of scare physical resources necessary for the basics of survival. Channeled information about 4D+ indicates that beyond the 3D Veil and Harvest, the basics of life survival will no longer be so scarce as to involve questions who gets to live and who must die; all premises based on not enough for everyone to exist and thrive will become irrelevant. 4D+ will involve a higher version of economics, based on coordinated activity to optimally express loving care and service.

organization and decision making will still be needed for that optimization of service.

this time, other resources will need to be arranged. you may be able to find all the food you need, but there will be other resources to use. even that loving care and service's love energy part, will need to be spent accordingly. especially because the 4d planet is new, and the amount of 4d activity is low.

The human version of 3D government, is based on a monopoly of force over a geographic territory. Channeled information about 4D+ indicates that beyond the Veil and Harvest, the use of force and the monopoly of demands will not be relevant concepts. Coordination will be on a voluntary, free will basis that is far beyond the limitations of our current experiences with politics.

the human version of 3d government was supposed to be an organization to solve disputes. then it evolved to record who owns what land, then it evolved to regulating trade, and in the meantime defense entered the question, along with religion. naturally negativized. from this point on it couldnt stay positive.

however, 'coordination will be on a voluntary, free will basis' is not a reality.

EVERYwhere in this universe there are dos, and donts. just like the fusion reactor example i discussed with thefool, there will be other, less extreme concepts that will need to be done, or not done, even in a 6d environment.

if, one wants to be a member of a group, s/he will need to agree and comply with the society.

the very fact that, an entity needs 51% positive polarity is itself a significant agreement, acceptance, compliance. it is also important in that, 51% positivity means that the entity would think more of the group, than self. which means, the entity would consider group's thoughts and decisions more than self. which, in turn, means that, since entire group will be doing that, they would be automatically complying and obliging with entire group.

as polarization rises, this would get even more significant.

Capabilities and possibilities may be astronomically beyond what we are currently used to;

wow. you are exaggerating 4d way too much.

[Questioner]

if not, they can branch the project like in open source projects, and break up, or, like in the 4d fusion reactor example, incarnate in another planet.

but simply, freedoms are not unlimited.

This is where open source projects are different from earthly governments. One is always free to leave the former.

organization and decision making will still be needed for that optimization of service.

this time, other resources will need to be arranged. you may be able to find all the food you need, but there will be other resources to use. even that loving care and service's love energy part, will need to be spent accordingly. especially because the 4d planet is new, and the a
amount of 4d activity is low.

Alright, we agree perfectly about this.

the human version of 3d government was supposed to be an organization to solve disputes.

This is where we disagree. From my study of history, I believe few human governments actually began with such noble goals. I believe the majority of human government began as naked aggression to seize power, coercion, violence and manipulation over other humans.

if, one wants to be a member of a group, s/he will need to agree and comply with the society.

I find the open source analogy more helpful than the government analogy.

wow. you are exaggerating 4d way too much.

David Wilcock likes to use the phrase "a hundred times more harmonious" than current 3D life behind the Veil. Where I come from that's a huge improvement. However, exploring that further would take us away from the original conversation about countries.

[unity100]

This is where we disagree. From my study of history, I believe few human governments actually began with such noble goals. I believe the majority of human government began as naked aggression to seize power, coercion, violence and manipulation over other humans.

if we are talking about the history of post-atlantis age, ie, the last 10-11 k years, that is incorrect.

in neolithic, leave aside war, warlike actions, and anything relating to these, there were matriarchical societies, for example in eastern anatolia. these parts, and these dates, actually coincide with the domestication of wheat in human history too. there are numerous settlements like this in this period, leaving peacefully, and apparently worshiping various gods.

one is catalhoyuk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

possibly, all this kind of organizations started as a collective, much like farmer's union etc.

for example, the understanding of governance and government, organization, remained true to these equal cores, in scandinavian cultures, until middle ages, even though the cultures themselves became quite barbaric, with the inclusion of an elected chief.

it depends on the region/culture. however, at the dawn of agriculture, such organizations were found, and they probably started in places where engaged in agriculture first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

this 12,000 year old place is interesting for example. it is the oldest known place of worship in history, and predates agriculture.

I find the open source analogy more helpful than the government analogy.

what difference does it make, whether it is a government or not, if the government is all of the people, all of them, equally and directly, including yourself.

David Wilcock likes to use the phrase "a hundred times more harmonious" than current 3D life behind the Veil. Where I come from that's a huge improvement. However, exploring that further would take us away from the original conversation about countries.

i do not subscribe to david willcock.

[Questioner]

what difference does it make, whether it is a government or not, if the government is all of the people, all of them, equally and directly, including yourself.

That's a big IF.

If you dislike the way an open source project is being run, you can leave, continue your own work with the code, and others can join you and/or the original project as they wish.

If you dislike the way a government is being run, you can get all your assets frozen, property seized, get jailed and killed.

I see these as two different things. I believe it makes sense for me to accept the definition of 3D worldly government as "that group of people who hold an effectively monopoly on the use of force over a geographic region and its inhabitants." The core of the definition is violence. This is a world away from open source or utopia.

The open source analogy is useful to my perception of what 4D+ might be like. I'll stick with that.

I don't agree with all of Wilcock's material. Regardless, I think it's reasonable to expect 4D+ to be considerably more positive, harmonious, beautiful etc. than current life. I don't have enough information to put a precise numerical value on that expectation.

[unity100]

actually, technically, if you dont like the way a government is being run, you can leave that country, government, and live elsewhere. even if its hard.

the 4d society wont be too much different in regard to breaking up i think. just like how you cant break up from your country and start another one with conflicting ideas and concepts in the middle of the country, you wont be able to break apart from a 4d society and set up a society with conflicting ideas in the middle of it. you may go to another planet, incarnate to another society, etc.

[Questioner]

That makes sense. One minor point: one actually can sometimes start a new country where the old country was, but it usually requires great conflict. For example, the U.S. revolutionaries did it, and the French made it a habit for a while. I imagine that in 4D+, leaving the original country would be more peaceful for that, like the way Canada became an independent country without a revolutionary war.

[unity100]

doubt it. isolation will be a smaller possibility, well maybe an improbability in 4d environment. if you remember, isolation was possible in 2nd cycle of 3d on this planet, but has not possible in the 2nd, at least except its early stages.

in 4d, thoughts, emotions, any kind of spiritual energy/interaction will be much more fluid. it may not matter much whether you are in brasil as a group, and some other group is in finland, whatever vibrations you are generating in brasil will probably affect the entities in finland much more easily. at least, in time/space.

[thefool]

not practical on earth ?

its already being practiced in open source project formats. recently, these formats have moved to hardware production, further than software. there are some organizations, some small charities operating with these principles. some are already proposing governance concepts based on these.

Really!!! You are taking an example from a capitalist company from a capitalist country. How could this be a socialist example. If the same thing was tried in a socialist country then first of all unions would have objections to these countless people working number of hours for no wages and benefits. They would try to get proper union members with salary and benefits to do it. How dare a greedy capitalist company exploiting poor workers without wages... Then there probably would be some regulation to overcome fro someone to use their time like this. How can people collaborate on something that maybe wasteful for their own pleasures, shouldn't they be working on something that is politburo approved and puts food on the table... You might even have to stand two/three hours in a line to get your proper approval or permit to even work on such a project. And even then the government might suggest who to pick on these projects. And if this turns out to be some success despite the red tape, they would make a regulation for all the countrymen to participate in such projects, mandatory.

If open source software development is an example of socialist practice then I would argue that America is a socialist country. And status of liberty is a socialist symbol; we just need to replace the torch with hammer and sickle. And the declaration of independence is a socialist manifesto. I have proof too-
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...".

That sounds pretty socialist in that way. But what is the difference-

The difference is the consent of the governed. It is the individual that holds the most important place in the US system and it is the collective that holds supreme in the socialist/communist system. The idea is that once individual take care of themselves the collective will automatically be taken care of.

The difference is the role of the government. In all socialist systems government is all powerful and absolute authority. In American system the individuals choose the government.

The difference is the choice. In socialist system government makes the rule and only choice is for you to get out of the country or get killed. In American system, you can throw the government out.

---

actually, technically, if you dont like the way a government is being run, you can leave that country, government, and live elsewhere. even if its hard.

And people do try to escape these oppressive regimes. If the socialism is so good why are their people always trying to escape it. Recent examples of Cuban coming to America in small boats leaving their families behind and risking their own lives. Then there was Berlin wall between East and West Germany just to hold the people from East Germany to escape the oppression. What significant cultural differences could East and West Germany have to cause so much disparity in the growth and prosperity. To me it is case of failure of centralized command and control planning failure of socialism that cause all the deficiencies in the economic system.

---

this is incorrect, since space/time and time/space both contain elements from each other. actually, they are just weighted versions of each other.

just like how physicality exists in physical world to have the astral distribute over it, in astral, physicality is distributed over the astral.

physical and nonphysical cannot be separated at any given point. only, their balance and weighting can change.

moreover, since there are still bodies needed in order to manifest in astral plane (time/space bodies in time/space, hence the physicality), the amount of energy that these can channel and shoulder will still be limited with their capacity. and since physicality applies there too, in lessened amount, there may be much more astral energy circulating, but there will still be limits as to any manifesting node, concept, reality can handle and transfer.

All is one and One is all. So yes they are connected but doesn't translate into them being the same. Space/Time is limited and Time/Space is unlimited. Do you feel limited in a dream?

4D+ is not just going to be a nicer version of 3D, it is a qualitatively different experience. It is not just a bigger box, it is going to be outside the box so to speak...

[unity100]

Really!!! You are taking an example from a capitalist company from a capitalist country. How could this be a socialist example. If the same thing was tried in a socialist country then first of all unions would have objections to these countless people working number of hours for no wages and benefits. They would try to get proper union members with salary and benefits to do it. How dare a greedy capitalist company exploiting poor workers without wages... Then there probably would be some regulation to overcome fro someone to use their time like this. How can people collaborate on something that maybe wasteful for their own pleasures, shouldn't they be working on something that is politburo approved and puts food on the table... You might even have to stand two/three hours in a line to get your proper approval or permit to even work on such a project. And even then the government might suggest who to pick on these projects. And if this turns out to be some success despite the red tape, they would make a regulation for all the countrymen to participate in such projects, mandatory.

capitalist company from capitalist country ? relevance ?

open source, nonprofit projects, given away for free, anyone can participate, anyone can leave, anyone can do whatever they want with the source.

what part of this is company or capitalism ?

and 'unions' ? what 'unions' in a socialist country ? you do not have unions in a socialist system, because there is no need to defend any given party's rights against any other party's rights. everything is decided democratically, at least in theory. 'regulation', 'red tape', 'waiting in lines', with all due respect, this seems too much like right-wing propaganda that the right employs in america to make people get scared of thinking about anything but the system they want.

i implore you research sweden, finland, norway. you will find that, these countries have been ruled by socialist governments for the good part of last 60 years, have countless rules and regulations in place, and the experience of their citizens, have been above and beyond. one particular irony is, their citizens themselves dont know the standards they are living in, and complain though. their complaints go away right when they see the 'real' world outside their country for long durations.

If open source software development is an example of socialist practice then I would argue that America is a socialist country. And status of liberty is a socialist symbol; we just need to replace the torch with hammer and sickle. And the declaration of independence is a socialist manifesto. I have proof too-
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...".

That sounds pretty socialist in that way. But what is the difference-

concept of 'private ownership' doesnt happen in a socialist system. noone can own anything, everyone has to share. and everyone has equal rights to everything.

so, your approach doesnt hold. open source concept, is beyond socialist, to the point that its entire result is being given away free.

The difference is the consent of the governed. It is the individual that holds the most important place in the US system and it is the collective that holds supreme in the socialist/communist system. The idea is that once individual take care of themselves the collective will automatically be taken care of.

The difference is the role of the government. In all socialist systems government is all powerful and absolute authority. In American system the individuals choose the government.

this is misinformation. your information is incorrect.

in socialist systems, individuals choose the government just like any other system that has representation.

The difference is the choice. In socialist system government makes the rule and only choice is for you to get out of the country or get killed. In American system, you can throw the government out.

---

incorrect. in a socialist system, the government which you chose makes the rules. in 'american' system, also the same government which you chose makes the rules.

in a socialist system, if you dont like the government, you can elect others.

there is no difference in between 'american' system or 'socialist' systems in regard to representation by election. they both use the representative democratic process. they are precisely the same.

And people do try to escape these oppressive regimes. If the socialism is so good why are their people always trying to escape it. Recent examples of Cuban coming to America in small boats leaving their families behind and risking their own lives. Then there was Berlin wall between East and West Germany just to hold the people from East Germany to escape the oppression. What significant cultural differences could East and West Germany have to cause so much disparity in the growth and prosperity. To me it is case of failure of centralized command and control planning failure of socialism that cause all the deficiencies in the economic system.

---

'oppressive' regimes. your answer, is in your question.

all those countries and regions you speak of, as it was given in my earlier post as an example and a small bit of history, has been repressive cultures for thousands of years (some of them has more than 5 thousand year old histories), and they have always stayed that way, regardless of their system and their regime, and their times. some of them are still that way, even now supposedly 'democratic' with a capitalist system.

have you seen anyone escaping sweden ? finland ? norway ? these countries have been pretty much socialist for a long time now, electing socialist or left leaning parties for a long time, albeit very recently.

All is one and One is all. So yes they are connected but doesn't translate into them being the same. Space/Time is limited and Time/Space is unlimited. Do you feel limited in a dream?

that is incorrect. space/time, and time/space, limited similarly and oppositely.

in space/time, there is abundant space. in time/space, there is time in abundance. but neither is unlimited. there is still defined amount of space in space/time, and time still passes in time/space.

[thefool]

have you seen anyone escaping sweden ? finland ? norway ? these countries have been pretty much socialist for a long time now, electing socialist or left leaning parties for a long time, albeit very recently.

OK. When I think of socialism- It is just one step closer to communism or communism in hiding.
If Sweden is your example of socialist country then I call it 'welfare state' not really a socialist country. The welfare state typically have high taxation and lot of state ownership. The government can do that because of free market economy and prosperity that it brings. They tax these high earning individuals and use that to provide services to all individuals. If you check Sweden then you will find that in last 20 years they have moving away from the higher tax rates. A lot of deregulation and privatization is taking place over there. I am not against social safety nets that these welfare states provide. But it is just a matter of findign the right balance. But they can not exist without a prospering capitalistic economy otherwise who is going to pay for the expenses...

---

that is incorrect. space/time, and time/space, limited similarly and oppositely.

in space/time, there is abundant space. in time/space, there is time in abundance. but neither is unlimited. there is still defined amount of space in space/time, and time still passes in time/space.

Once again. I can dream and imagine of anything even unlimited so why should it be not possible.

-Do you think if I project light into the space it will travel for a few billion years and then find the edges of the time/space and then drop off or start to come back to me?
Let me ask you this.
-If the time/space is limited then what is beyond that limitation? What is that beyond part of ? Wouldn't that be part of time/space as well?
also
- You see the unique patterns in snowflakes, right. Do you think that after a few billion years the creator would run out of patterns and start to recycle the old one? NO my friend! think again. Even mathematically you can keep going and going ad-infinitum...

I agree that our perception of it could be limiting but the time/space is not limited at all. Don't discount the mystery of it all and don't think of it like a big box with edges and limits...

[unity100]

OK. When I think of socialism- It is just one step closer to communism or communism in hiding.

wow. 'communism in hiding', as if it was something sinister, evil. it reminds me the 1980s during which the right wing, american backed state was brainwashing people here wooing them away from such things using lines like 'communists are heathens' etc.

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless society structured upon communal ownership of the means of production and the end of wage labour and private property.[1] The exact definition of communism varies and it is commonly used interchangeably with socialism, however, communist theory contends that socialism is just a transitional stage on the way to communism.

it is not 'communism in hiding'. it is used interchangeably with communism, and in addition, in its least form it is a stage towards communism.

i have been using it directly synonymous with communism.

ie, no private property, no wage labor (everyone owns equal rights to means of production) everyone communally owns everything as society.

i was talking directly on that. its not in 'hiding' or anything, its directly it.

If Sweden is your example of socialist country then I call it 'welfare state' not really a socialist country. The welfare state typically have high taxation and lot of state ownership. The government can do that because of free market economy and prosperity that it brings.

sweden and a number of n european countries has been used as example, because these are regions that do not have repression and autocracy as a cultural heritage.

due to resistance of established elite, (most of whom are from old aristocratic castes by the way) socialist or communist societies were not able to come to being in any other country, especially the ones supposedly having 'freedom'. anyone suggesting higher taxes, unions, leave aside abolition of private ownership were beaten down, both in 19th century, and 20th. actually, they are still beating such people down, even in supposedly civilized countries, if they are perceived as a threat that gone over a certain threshold.

however, sweden cannot be dubbed a 'welfare' state. this is an american term, an american invention by the way, and it should be left in right wing oriented american lands.

sweden has quite high personal income tax. however, it already had lower corporate income taxes for a long time.

the end result happens to be an interesting, almost communist situation - you can start a private company and run it and make profit, but, you cannot use that profit for yourself. if you attempt to take it and spend it yourself, government takes a huge portion of it. if it stays in corporation and is not touched, corporation can use it.

basically, corporations act as semi-independent government bureaus that autonomously render goods and services in such countries. supposedly they are your own, but, the income taxes for an individual are so high that, it is doubtful that you can call something your 'own' in that situation.

add to that the numerous rules and regulations that govern the conduction of production and service, you end up not so far away from a communist regime.

basically you cant sell lead laden children's toys to kids in such places. leave aside actually selling it, and then apologizing and paying some ridiculously small percentage of reparations in comparison to your wealth, you cant even come near doing that in the first place.

......

before all of these, i believe an entity going on positive path should sit and think, that can there be 'private property' in a positive society. can there be 'profit'. can there be anything other than equal rights, sharing, equal distribution ....

Once again. I can dream and imagine of anything even unlimited so why should it be not possible.

everything can be unlimited. everything is unlimited. however, in that unlimited infinity, you are manifesting in an existence that has limitations in place, in order to effect the concept of multi-being manifestations, multipleness to come to being.

your sun, is not providing unlimited energy to you. the energy it provides, is limited with its physical manifestation. this physicality includes whatever manifestation it has in time/space, in comparably more lessened impact of physicality, yet, still existing.

as you go up in densities and approach octave, it may get phenomenally more unlimited, but, it will still have limitation.

-Do you think if I project light into the space it will travel for a few billion years and then find the edges of the time/space and then drop off or start to come back to me?

it wont return to you. it will stop at whatever boundary universe has. universe, has a boundary.

http://www.google.com/search?q=universe+...=firefox-a

-If the time/space is limited then what is beyond that limitation? What is that beyond part of ? Wouldn't that be part of time/space as well?
also

infinity is beyond limitation. its also infinitely limited. up until that point, everything will have whatever distribution of these two, according to their nature. nothing can be free of limits, and nothing can be infinitely limited.

- You see the unique patterns in snowflakes, right. Do you think that after a few billion years the creator would run out of patterns and start to recycle the old one? NO my friend! think again. Even mathematically you can keep going and going ad-infinitum...

at any given time, the number and variation of snowflake patterns is limited.

if you add a few billion years, a few trillion years, or, add infinite time, situation changes.

that is why comparison is incorrect and irrelevant - sun can channel a limited amount of energy, but, if you give it infinite time, the energy it channels will amount to unlimited.

I agree that our perception of it could be limiting but the time/space is not limited at all. Don't discount the mystery of it all and don't think of it like a big box with edges and limits...

attributing 'mystery' to something doesnt make it free of rules and hierarchical framework of manifestation that was set at the start of this existence/octave/whatever.

time/space, is counterpart of space/time. to complete it to 0, both need to balance each other out, just like how negative and positive or any other concept balance each other out.

[Ali Quadir]

Brilliant discussion...

The question why people from socialist countries are so often trying to escape may be answered by this map... My apologies I had a better one which showed immigrant movement and wealth distribution but I cannot find it...

The direction of the wealth is the direction of the migration of people. (Although looking at Mexico and the U.S. they don't necessarily follow the curvy lines)

And so the answer is simply poverty. It's not so much that these people want our freedom or hate it or whatever... If you're not a dissident or live in poverty life in those countries isn't incredibly bad. They want the same level of living the rest of us do... While constantly being bombarded by the differences.

I've been in brasil and among the people there we were with were two girls from the same primary school one who's father and mother had decent jobs and they put their daughter in a university, one whose mother had run off and her father had just enough extra from his sugar cane plantation to put his daughter through some community courses, english and economy in this case. Which is a good choice I think. That plantation was one of the best places I've been in my life, it was tranquil to a spiritual level and the only things disturbing the tranquility was the father the fathers girlfriend and the dog who were laughing all the time.. Not a bad life at all at that moment. But fragile considering the poverty and the poor economy.

Unity gave a brilliant explanation how in this system we are essentially all slaves. But there's a difference between slaves who have big televisions and slaves who have a bed of straw. Being enslaved in the system isn't so much the problem I think, considering how most of us don't even realize its going on. The problem is the unfair distribution.

Socialism usually entered those countries after this flow of wealth had started. It should be seen as an attempt by the people to get some of the wealth back... And in spite of the corruption in those countries typical socialist dictators like Chavez and Castro are actually chosen again and again because they do invest in free medicine and education to the ridiculously low level that they can (or want to) afford. Which tends to be a great step up from the former dictators who only invested in themselves. These people don't actually have much choices politics are usually ruled by socialist rhetoric and just a little actual socialism. And you can choose from your little hut between people who basically go yachting together.

If you look at the so called left heroes. Like Che Guevara. His story was, he was upper class, he went on a road trip discovered the whole of south america lived in poverty and decided to change that. Essentially that turned out to be by killing everyone who would take wealth away from the population living in poverty... A bloody revolution. It did improve life for most somewhat. Which is why he is considered a hero today. Just not that much and his methods were highly questionable. Essentially these countries have their livesblood sucked out by the rich countries.

And then the sad part.. Most of the affluence is converted to military might. Because well, if you're rich people may end up wanting to take it away. The paradox is that if we didn't have the military to feed no one would be really poor.

Those STS guys are in my opinion mostly centered around the military apparatus and the large wealth flow. These are the places where the money is and this is how you keep the status quo... Government as a whole is also civil service, tax collection, road naming and social security distribution.. There is not much profit or power in those areas.

[Questioner]

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to split this discussion into two threads.

carrie's original question: do you believe your country will no longer exist when Earth goes 4D?
My response is that I believe nationalism will not be relevant in 4D+.
We then got onto quite a long discussion about whether government can be a positive force, with unity100 carrying the flag for socialism as a force for good.

Looking back, I think that both my responses and u100's responses might be increasingly irrelevant to carrie's original question. Perhaps a new thread might be in order about government, nations, or economic systems as related to the Law of One.

[unity100]

Unity gave a brilliant explanation how in this system we are essentially all slaves. But there's a difference between slaves who have big televisions and slaves who have a bed of straw. Being enslaved in the system isn't so much the problem I think, considering how most of us don't even realize its going on. The problem is the unfair distribution.

in my opinion, slavery, is slavery.

but there is a more important catch in this - the wealth of those wealthy in those countries are made a reality by exploitation of the countries they are taking immigrants from, both in the near history of a few centuries earlier, but also throughout this century by use of capitalist domination tools like conglomerates, monopolies, treaties. in the last few decades, exploitation of cheap manpower was also added in the form of outsourcing work to those countries.

naturally some slave who has a big tv is better off than some slave in another country who does not. however, that tv, comes through a chain of slavery and exploitation.

Socialism usually entered those countries after this flow of wealth had started. It should be seen as an attempt by the people to get some of the wealth back...

left wing ideas have been able to stage revolutions in countries which have been exploited to extreme, like eastern europe (thousand year of worse than slavery feudal serfdom, contrary to rest of europe), or colonies, or autocratic cultures like china. even china suffered a lot at the hands of japanese invaders.

all these situations bred grudges and (rather righteous) anger in these societies. the perfect way to create psychopaths.

when same kind of social environment and suffering is created in societies, whatever you do afterwards take the nature of that social atmosphere.

there hasnt been such a major situation in the west, because, the system there offered token upwards mobility. despite the ones moving upward has been low at all times (even in modern age), the system and established elite makes these an example, and if anyone questions it, they are shown the examples of those 'who made it'. for everyone that 'makes' it, however, there are thousands who 'cant make it'. and it is also a matter of interest that, the ones who 'make it', can never make it to the very top or the top 5%, able to take their supper in paris and dinner in bahamas. actually the ones who are going upper than upper middle class are very very rare, and being let to even do it requires acceptance and acknowledgment of existing
power structure and elite already.

And in spite of the corruption in those countries typical socialist dictators like Chavez and Castro are actually chosen again and again because they do invest in free medicine and education to the ridiculously low level that they can (or want to) afford.

chavez cannot be equated with castro at any point. in his presidency, persecution didnt happen. if im not mistaken, even the right wing part of army which staged the coup against him was not persecuted.

http://www.google.com/search?q=coup+agai...=firefox-a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezu...at_attempt

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0416-03.htm

Despite the inhumane and deplorable practices they employed, justifying and preparing their coup. (firing on demonstrators and accusing chavez etc).

currently, with the 59% in favor referendum he had the last time, (authenticated by international observers), and the situation above, i dont believe there is any other government that is more democratic on the face of the planet. especially when some of the g5 member countries' elections have been under scrutiny for fraud.

Which tends to be a great step up from the former dictators who only invested in themselves. These people don't actually have much choices politics are usually ruled by socialist rhetoric and just a little actual socialism. And you can choose from your little hut between people who basically go yachting together.

what chavez is currently doing, is beyond 'some socialism'. they are actually going on the path of northern european countries.

And then the sad part.. Most of the affluence is converted to military might. Because well, if you're rich people may end up wanting to take it away. The paradox is that if we didn't have the military to feed no one would be really poor.

unfortunately judging from the bay of pigs incident, various other attempts in cuba, and the cia-instigated coup by the now-ousted elite in venezueal, that 'may end up wanting to take it back' never fails to come to fruition.

it is appalling that the very people who have been sucking the blood dry out of masses just 10 years ago, have gone on 'protests' against 'dictatorship', giving statements to reporters about 'freedom', just because they werent able to make money that easily anymore, and being taxed of their huge income.

also the nationalization of oil cartel installations and oil, had played a huge part in american support to this debauchery and treachery in my opinion.

---

My response is that I believe nationalism will not be relevant in 4D+.
We then got onto quite a long discussion about whether government can be a positive force, with unity100 carrying the flag for socialism as a force for good.

even further, im proposing that, the nature of positive society complexes, are exactly socialism/communism.

everyone has equal rights to everything, everyone not only works together and decides together, but also thinks together, feels together.

[Questioner]

even further, im proposing that, the nature of positive society complexes, are exactly socialism/communism.

Well, how would you feel about proposing that in a new thread? I think it might be a broader topic about Harvest/4D+ than carrie's original question.