A Christian sends this video to a reincarnation discussion

[kristy1111]

Greetings, dear ones...

I was watching a really excellent video about reincarnation recently, and a Christian popped on and told everyone that if they believed in reincarnation, they were following the devil [basically], possessed by demons giving them memories of people they had possessed in the past. Then the person presented this video (below). I was curious as to how any one of you might respond to a person who might present this material to you. The video is short. I personally think it is amazing how both sides can present such convincing 'evidences' to their truths. Of course, one must believe the Bible to be the word of God in order for one to take their evidence seriously. I find things like this difficult at weaker moments, because I was in a very large religion and I was what you would call "staunch" (VERY faithful) for many years before leaving almost eight years ago. I find myself getting really angry when I feel that old "fear" that creeps in at times. My husband and I are sending in official letters of resignation to that church this week, as a side note. Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iQYTN6Q2n0

[gharghur]

Hi Kristy,
This video mixes fact with fiction, and positive with negative energy.
At the time of Jesus there were two major sects in the jewish religion; the essenes and the pharisees. The pharisees were the ruling class and did not believe in reincarnation. The essenes did, and Jesus was raised as an essene and knew reincarnation to be real because he himself incarnated into third density from fourth, to teach of the coming of the new age.
The I AM presence is believed to be a sixth density negative social memory complex. They, also believed, are the same entities that deceived Moses into believing he was communicating directly with god when he received the ten commandments.
These days, when anyone tries to research something of importance on the internet they are deluged with information and misinformation. The bible was also put together in this fashion.
Fear not, you are safe here.
namaste

[kristy1111]

Hi Kristy,
The essenes did [believe in reincarnation], and Jesus was raised as an essene and knew reincarnation to be real because he himself incarnated into third density from fourth, to teach of the coming of the new age.

Why are these teachings not in the Bible that is used by most people today? Where could I find this information? My family and some of my friends think I'm possessed just for believing in reincarnation - and most certainly for remembering some bits and pieces of past lives.

The I AM presence is believed to be a sixth density negative social memory complex.

So all of those who tell us that we should get "in tune" with our "I AM" presence are full of bunk? Now I'm confused.

They, also believed, are the same entities that deceived Moses into believing he was communicating directly with god when he received the ten commandments.

How come they would do something so mean to confuse people?

These days, when anyone tries to research something of importance on the internet they are deluged with information and misinformation. The bible was also put together in this fashion.
Fear not, you are safe here.

AGREED! I still marvel at how people stake their very lives on a book that has been altered and messed up over the centuries and so many claim that the "original" books are safe and sound and match the current Bible "word for word"....'as God wrote it'.

[Monica]

Hi Kristy!

I can definitely relate! I felt the same way when I was a Christian, and it took me awhile to release the fears associated with leaving the church. And I have had past life memories ever since I was a little child, and I still had fears about believing what was obvious to me!

Here is what I respond to Christians with, on the reincarnation issue:

May a Christian Believe in Reincarnation? which makes a very compelling case for reincarnation being Biblical.

Here is another compelling story (one among many thousands such stories):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUO...re=related

But, Biblical scripture can be used to prove or disprove reincarnation, since there are so many seemingly contradictory scriptures. So that usually doesn't convince them. But I would never try to convince them. The most we can hope for is to offer a suggestion that these scriptures can be interpreted either way, and a person isn't 'satanic' for believing that there is scriptural support.

Of course, if you don't accept the Bible as the 'word of God' (which I personally don't) then the scriptures aren't relevant in the decision of whether to believe in reincarnation. But I find the Biblical support to be useful when discussing with Christians, because it gives them some viewpoints in alignment with their beliefs.

Here's another excellent book for introducing the topic to Christians in a non-threatening way:

Edgar Cayce and Christian Faith by Lynn Sparrow

Ultimately, I tell them that I cannot accept their version of 'heaven' and 'hell' and the idea that 'God' would sentence MOST of the world's population to eternal torture, just because of their beliefs. I just can't believe in a God like that. Reincarnation is much more merciful and compassionate than sending souls to 'hell.'

The whole idea of "don't believe in reincarnation or you'll open yourself up to demons" is very fear-based.

When I left Christianity, I felt fear and doubts for several years. I kept trying to find books that reconciled my new beliefs with Christianity, such as works by Corrine Helene, Rudolph Steiner, etc. and of course the Edgar Cayce readings. This was part of the process of letting go of the indoctrination, for me. I personally no longer accept the Bible as authoritative at all, though there is some good stuff in the New Testament.

My suggestion is to trust your own process, and give yourself time to find beliefs and viewpoints you are comfortable with, and consider questioning anything that is fear-based.

blessings

[litllady]

Since I have moved past seeking the 'higher self' of me that is still in a phase of separation of 'one'....and began to seek a 'holy spirit' that would be within all life....my ideas of reincarnation have changed.

I thought that all the things I could tap into of 'past' was of a past life of 'me' and the things I could tap into the future 'higher self' was also of 'me....as in I was a infinite self all on my own, without beginning or end.

I have sense changed my thoughts on all of this.

I feel now, its only the Holy Spirit that is without beginning or end...not I as a 'self' that surely does desire to be an infinite self. Our desires and intentions can be very misleading...and alot of what we think we receive of a past life or from a certain 'higher self' is often linked to our own desires.

When I let loose of these desires...and began to seek a Spirit within all things, a ONE Spirit....I received the following.

We are all but a phase, of the Spirit...and this phase, is called a 'soul'. If the Spirit is within all life, all beings....it is only the Spirit that has incarnated into every life...so if you tap into a 'seemingly past life' or 'seemingly future self'....you are only tapping into the TRUE SELF that you share will all other beings and what you are offered is linked to your desires as a self for to think....is to create...and to desire, is the avenue this ONE Spirit within us uses. When we explore every avenue of desires and creation...we will still be hunger and thirsty, for we will still not of found what we are to seek....the ONE within us all. The things that makes us connected...and not separate at all.

Are you sure...that the past life you found to be unique to you...was ONLY unique to YOU....or could it be, that its only Unique to me, The Spirit, that is within all and that I only allow you to see what will be of use to you of what you are seeking.

If there is only ONE spirit that has incarnated into every single life form.... then any past life...is a part of this 'one spirit' and we are simply being allowed to see certain avenues or phases of one of its expressions or even many of its expressions.

So I would say to the Christians....any past life of me...is a just another 'phase' of God expressing Theeself that Thee allowed me to 'tap into' to learn from and use, something that I personally as a 'self' was in need of. We can see these offerings as a part of 'ourselves' uniquely.....or we can see that all of these offerings are only a unique expression of Thee...which we right now are all also, unique expressions/phases of Thee.

I know this doesnt go well with what this forum follows, which is some of the reasons I dont posts strongly in here, for my life has taken such a change and I no longer seek harvest or ascension of any kind. I offer myself back to this Spirit....and ask to be used as a 'expression' of what ever is needed, for the ONE that we are all of and 'am'. I no longer 'seek a home'....for I found home, is within me. I no longer seek to leave this planet or sphere....for much work needs to be done and I want to be a part of that. I no longer seek ascension for my 'self' for I had to face that those were selfish desires and not for the ALL or ONE. Each to their own...but this is now my path.

[Monica]

Why are these teachings not in the Bible that is used by most people today? Where could I find this information?

Because the collections of books in the current Bible was compiled for political reasons, by Emperor Constantine in around 325 (?) AD. References to reincarnation were mostly removed, though they missed a few (see above link).

Also, there are a LOT of other scriptures that never got included in the Bible. You might want to check out the Gnostic Christians, who acknowledge a lot of other scriptures as being authentic. (Although, what is authentic? Authentic what?)

My family and some of my friends think I'm possessed just for believing in reincarnation - and most certainly for remembering some bits and pieces of past lives.

Heh, I know about that all too well! My family thinks that of me too. My advice is to just smile and give them a hug.

So all of those who tell us that we should get "in tune" with our "I AM" presence are full of bunk? Now I'm confused.

I think gharghur was referring to the STS infiltrator, who used the name Yahweh to impose fear and domination on the tribal people. There are some threads about Yahweh on this forum, exploring the references in the Law of One.

Not to be confused with your own Divine Self, the Creator that dwells inside each of us.

How come they would do something so mean to confuse people?

It was an opportunity for STS to gain a foothold on this planet. It succeeded quite well, to a large degree, methinks.

AGREED! I still marvel at how people stake their very lives on a book that has been altered and messed up over the centuries and so many claim that the "original" books are safe and sound and match the current Bible "word for word"....'as God wrote it'.

Yeah me too. And then, even if you could get the perfect translation, you'd be essentially putting your faith into the humans who wrote it.

I mean, it was written by humans. It might be considered channeled, but written by humans nonetheless. How it is any different from any other 'holy scripture' which humans in other cultures wrote? Just different people expressing their own quest for God. Each cultural group thought they had the 'truth' but it was just their own limited understanding.

We've just been indoctrinated so completely, in this society, that this particular book is 'the word of God' and all others 'demonic' that it's scary at first, letting go of that.

But once you learn of the political machinations of how the Bible was put together, it sheds a whole 'nother light on it. It's very liberating to realize that humans were responsible for forcing the conquered people to believe a certain way, and that got passed on for many centuries.

[gharghur]

Thank you Monica, very well put.
Kristy, if you need additional information after reviewing Monica's post, I'll try to help.
Religions, overall, are good. They help people to believe in something greater than themselves and offer hope when times are bad. Religious dogma, is not good. It restricts ones growth and free will.

[kristy1111]

Monica, thank you so much for the two links - can't wait to check them both out!

The most we can hope for is to offer a suggestion that these scriptures can be interpreted either way, and a person isn't 'satanic' for believing that there is scriptural support.

Yeah, and it amazes me that it's only in THEIR way of thinking that it can be shown (by their standards) that people are satanic for believing in reincarnation! Like their way is the "one and only truth", so to speak. Cross their line, and venom is released. I know this from experience...sigh.

Of course, if you don't accept the Bible as the 'word of God' (which I personally don't) then the scriptures aren't relevant in the decision of whether to believe in reincarnation.

I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, either. I get THE worst looks, comments, and "sentences" to hell (as if they are my judge and they know where I'm going). I have actually had people cast "spells of rebuke" upon me and call me Jezebel (the real one). I've been accused of being a demon disguised as an angel of light. News to me. I'd think I'd know if I really WAS one....no? Yes?

But I find the Biblical support to be useful when discussing with Christians, because it gives them some viewpoints in alignment with their beliefs.

I have had many experiences where I can use the Bible to discuss it with them and since it doesn't agree with what they believe in, they find any and all kinds of excuses to disregard what I say. Usually it's that I'm not "translating it correctly".

By the way, I love all the Edgar Cayce stuff!!

Ultimately, I tell them that I cannot accept their version of 'heaven' and 'hell' and the idea that 'God' would sentence MOST of the world's population to eternal torture, just because of their beliefs. I just can't believe in a God like that. Reincarnation is much more merciful and compassionate than sending souls to 'hell.'

I tell them this, too. They tell me that "God's ways are not man's ways" and that even though it might sound 'harsh' to me (the Bible's version of God), it's how God works, and not liking it isn't gonna change it. So I better get my act together before it's "everlastingly too late".

The whole idea of "don't believe in reincarnation or you'll open yourself up to demons" is very fear-based.

It has been my experience that when I read most things from Christians, including the Bible, I can feel a big pot of fear being stirred up. Not my own fear, but it's like everything is a "recipe" for fear from them. "Do this...or ELSE!!" I tell them that I am not even God (in their perspective of things) and I would NEVER do things to my own children that our "loving" heavenly father (their version of "him") would do to his own children. I also tell them that their god supposedly created them just the way they are, including WITH all of their tendencies or "weaknesses" to "sin". And then he wants to punish us for all of that if we don't straighten up and fly right? ha! Nice guy.

When I left Christianity, I felt fear and doubts for several years.

Me, too, especially since I had once believed I belonged to the "one and ONLY true church on the face of the earth - that's what my particular religion taught. We were taught that all other faiths were "an abomination before god" and that they spoke certain truth from their lips, but it was "far from their hearts".

I have watched Christians lately turn into venomous dragons towards me because I support gay rights (I'm straight, but I believe all people deserve the same rights). They think I am a satan loving, disgusting, vile, horrible demon. I've had them openly tell me that they are excited for me to meet my maker at the pearly gates and burn in hell (if I go to the pearly gates, I doubt I'll be burning). They are actually amused and excited at the prospect of me suffering. It's a very sad thing indeed. The hatred in them towards me is so powerful that I almost expect to see them foaming at the mouth and going into convulsions. It's seriously a sight to behold.

Anyway, I love hearing other peoples' viewpoints when they are presented the Christian's view of truth (such as this video). I can't stand all the fear they swing out at people. I wouldn't WANT to worship a god "father" that did such terrible things to his children - and even his own son (having a son die a horrible death because God is so jealous and "needs" things). I've had enough problems with cruel dads in this lifetime...I don't need the "big guy" to be that way, too. haha... ;o)

---

Thank you Monica, very well put.
Kristy, if you need additional information after reviewing Monica's post, I'll try to help.
Religions, overall, are good. They help people to believe in something greater than themselves and offer hope when times are bad. Religious dogma, is not good. It restricts ones growth and free will.

Yes, thank you...any help would be appreciated. I love to hear as many insights as I can.

[gharghur]

Hi Litllady,
That was stated quite eloquently. Thank you.
In the end we are all of one Spirit, and that Spirit is the Creator.
I believe Ra phrased it as the Infinite Energy/Light eminating from the Infinite Intelligence/Love.
We are the drops in the great ocean of consciousness known as God.
You may seek the essence of the drop in this existence, or just exist in the ocean. The choice is yours.
namaste

[Monica]

Kristy, ditto for me! All of the above, my experiences exactly!

Gosh I wish I could continue this conversation, but I need to go...I look forward to continuing this discussion! There is much that we can share.

[gharghur]

Hi Monica,
I think gharghur was referring to the STS infiltrator, who used the name Yahweh to impose fear and domination on the tribal people. There are some threads about Yahweh on this forum, exploring the references in the Law of One.

Correct. The I AM presence is still working feverishly in this very day. Just ran into an I AM channel. Unfortunately those that follow this channeling think it is a positive teaching. Having listened to it made me smile. It is quite deceptive unless one knows where it is heading with the thoughts it projects. It's a free will planet, and everyone must travel their own path. So far, have only made two indirect comments about this in that group to two people individually. Plant a seed and let it be.

[kristy1111]

Kristy, ditto for me! All of the above, my experiences exactly!

Here's one that always makes me shake my head in disbelief. And I'm not trying to judge. But this seems as plain as the nose on my face, so it makes me wonder how it can't be blatantly obvious to those who decide to make me their enemies.

In my former church, we had a thing called "The Articles of Faith". The second one went like this:

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgressions."

Say what? If that is the case, then why did they also teach me that Adam partook of the fruit that Eve gave him, and thus "sinned", and because of that sin, ALL of us are subject to the "fall"? I didn't do it, Adam did (supposedly). So why do every single of us (supposedly) suffer for Adam's sin? I mean, didn't they even think when they made this up?

And then they taught me that Cain killed his brother, and because he did that, he received a "mark" (which in that religion, is the skin of blackness). I was also taught that Cain's descendants, from then until the end of time, will also receive this mark. I was taught that these are the negro people (sheeesh). Okay - I don't believe in any of that stuff. Just trying to make a point. If CAIN is the one who made the boo-boo...then why are all his descendants "cursed" with this "mark"? That church even forbid any black people from receiving the "priesthood" and it was said that this was the way it would be until every single person that would ever be born on this earth HAD been born and accepted the 'true' gospel. But...social pressure got the best of them and they changed their mind, so in 1978, blacks were allowed to have the priesthood.

That's just one of the many things that jumped out at me like a big red flag.

I have tried to talk to my mother about these things (she is still very active in that church) but she literally put her hand in my face and said, "I don't want to hear it. If I hear it, I'll believe it. And I am happy where I'm at. My faith is weak and I want to stay where I'm at." It made me feel sad, but it is her choice. The only bad thing is, she judges me and says that I am deceived by satan and she believes that if I don't change, I will not inherit the highest kingdom (or even the lowest). They believe in three kingdoms. She believes that I will go to a place called "outer darkness" reserved for those who apostatize from the "true" church.

This, again, is a big time FEAR tactic and it has proven very effective in most cases.

[gharghur]

Church of Latter Day Saints?

[kristy1111]

Church of Latter Day Saints?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (mormon)

[peelstreetguy]

Ahh yes, the mormons.....

I could write a lot about what I think about them, but I won't. Just as I don't berate them when they come up to talk to me. Because what I think is very negative and born of frustration.

So I simply laugh and inside I feel sad for them and their brainwashing program. This leads to frustration for me, because no matter what I say, they won't listen. They don't dare listen. They are quite used to their fantasy world. I feel the same way about many religions.

Kristy, I am very happy for you that you broke out of it. It gives me hope that others might see the bull$hit that it is and breakout too.

As a side note, I do believe in Jesus, but laugh at the bible, as I think so would Jesus.

[gharghur]

Church of Latter Day Saints?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (mormon)

Studied the Book of Mormon some years ago, and was involved in their faith for a time. I might add, however, I was raised a catholic, studied judaism and buddhism, then became a christian and studied to be a pastor.
Will reiterate.
All faiths have the positive purpose of teaching their followers to believe in something greater than themselves.
All religious dogma, however, uses that belief to control them by making the religious leaders a representative of that greater.
Yet, as the world has witnessed in recent decades, these religious leaders are no different than anyone else. And sometimes, they are even more negatively biased.
This is the true religion of the world without the dogma:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcgNJ7cgDVs
namaste

[Aaron]

Ahh yes, the mormons.....

I could write a lot about what I think about them, but I won't. Just as I don't berate them when they come up to talk to me. Because what I think is very negative and born of frustration.

So I simply laugh and inside I feel sad for them and their brainwashing program. This leads to frustration for me, because no matter what I say, they won't listen. They don't dare listen. They are quite used to their fantasy world. I feel the same way about many religions.

Kristy, I am very happy for you that you broke out of it. It gives me hope that others might see the bull$hit that it is and breakout too.

As a side note, I do believe in Jesus, but laugh at the bible, as I think so would Jesus.

I just feel I have to say that I happen to know a person with a brilliant, shining open heart who is a Mormon. I would put a bet on the fact that she's a wanderer and isn't awakened yet. Because she hasn't yet remembered in this life, Mormonism is what she really believes as truth. And yet this doesn't stop her from expressing universal love in her everyday life. Although I understand your frustration, I can't say that all Mormon are bad or ignorant as much as I could say that about any other group. Not to mention another bright and shining example of a person who has chosen to experience the Mormon religious structure during this life is reading this... kristy1111! Lol They're people just like us. And of course, ultimately, we're all one.

[drkdsm]

I loved those videos and enjoyed reading all these posts they really made me laugh. Since I came to the LOO material and stopped going to the Catholic church, I get nothing but negativity from my own family as well almost to the point where I can feel their negative energy. Of course it always comes out in the form of sarcastic comments from them and it makes me feel sorry for them because all their lives are so full of drama and all they do is fight w/ eachother in an endless cycle. Then they go to church and before you know it drama once again. I pray for them all the time that they wake up from their dream of course I dont tell them I do this they would just use that against me as well. I never knew what Namaste meant and I think its beautiful...love and light to all

[gharghur]

I loved those videos and enjoyed reading all these posts they really made me laugh. Since I came to the LOO material and stopped going to the Catholic church, I get nothing but negativity from my own family as well almost to the point where I can feel their negative energy. Of course it always comes out in the form of sarcastic comments from them and it makes me feel sorry for them because all their lives are so full of drama and all they do is fight w/ eachother in an endless cycle. Then they go to church and before you know it drama once again. I pray for them all the time that they wake up from their dream of course I dont tell them I do this they would just use that against me as well. I never knew what Namaste meant and I think its beautiful...love and light to all

Ra Ma Da Sa.
Sa Say So Hung. (sanskrit)
The Sun, the Moon, the Earth, Infinity.
The Totality of Infinity, We are Thou. (translation)

[Brittany]

Eh...I was a devout Christian for about 20 years...then it all just fell apart. The thing about this particular branch of faith (and of course there are exceptions) is that, in my opinion, it tends to focus more on fear tactics to get people to obey a preestablished set of rules than on presenting actual evidence to support its case. The goal seems to be to get everyone so afraid they're going to burn in hell for all eternity that they don't notice the massive holes in the theories they generally support. A very STS tactic, though the basis of Christianity is the words of Christ, who spoke of unconditional love. I don't think you can get a more mixed ball o' polarity than that. Most of the people of this faith truly believe they are doing the right thing, and if that is the case then I would say they ARE doing the right thing with the answers they have access to. I generally try to avoid discussions of faith, but if I have to get into one, I generally tell the person I repect their belief and reserve the right to follow my own.

[kristy1111]

For some reason I missed all the new replies to this thread (I've been going through some "personal hell" lately) but I can't wait to start replying tomorrow! But it's off to bed for me right now. Until tomorrow...
Luv, Kristy

[kristy1111]

Also, there are a LOT of other scriptures that never got included in the Bible. You might want to check out the Gnostic Christians, who acknowledge a lot of other scriptures as being authentic. (Although, what is authentic? Authentic what?)

My sister-in-law claims that she "knows" the Bible is the word of God, as he dictated it to the prophets, and that it's a perfectly correct, "word for word" dictation. I asked her how she 'knew' this and she said that people have actually found the "actual"..."original" first writings of the Bible, and that many, many copies have been made which are also word for word, perfectly matching the "original". I was like, "uuuuh...yeeeeah." And who made the decision that they were indeed "the" original? ;o)

I think gharghur was referring to the STS infiltrator, who used the name Yahweh to impose fear and domination on the tribal people. There are some threads about Yahweh on this forum, exploring the references in the Law of One.

I haven't finished the LOO, but I can't wrap my mind around the idea of people trying to hurt other people (the STS people being the ones who want to hurt). I don't understand what they expect to gain. Are the STS entities humans AND disembodied entities? Could these be the "evil spirits" and "demons" and "devils" that are spoken of so often?

By the way, I've told some religious people that since leaving my past religion, I am no longer plagued by any kind of "evil spirits" that I used to fear greatly. I told them I don't even really think about stuff like that or give it my attention. They told me that this is a very bad sign, because it's showing that the devil is backing away from me, trying to get me to believe that he and the demons don't exist, so I will focus on staying away from the church.

...even if you could get the perfect translation [of the Bible], you'd be essentially putting your faith into the humans who wrote it.

I mean, it was written by humans. It might be considered channeled, but written by humans nonetheless. How it is any different from any other 'holy scripture' which humans in other cultures wrote? Just different people expressing their own quest for God. Each cultural group thought they had the 'truth' but it was just their own limited understanding.

Exactly! Every human has their own opinions, beliefs, views, etc., all stemming from the conditioning they received as they grew up and even beyond. It's like the old Elephant story - each person feeling a different part of the same elephant and they all have different ways of describing it.
This reminds me of cussing.

My point is, we are conditioned about everything and anything, and the interpretations in books, as well as the experiencing of original "holy events" is up for interpretation by weak, conditioned human beings. Even having a "bad day" and being in a crappy mood can intensely affect how we "view" something.

---

Hi Monica,
I think gharghur was referring to the STS infiltrator, who used the name Yahweh to impose fear and domination on the tribal people. There are some threads about Yahweh on this forum, exploring the references in the Law of One. The I AM presence is still working feverishly in this very day.

Reading the Old Testament is an emotional jolt for me - negatively. (but I haven't read it for a looooong time). The "God" in the O.T. is a big mean dude.
Wow...what a destroyer and a jealous, self-centered type of entity. I've often talked to the Christians in my life about how they tell me that God is "the same today, yesterday and forever". They also tell me that "his ways are unchanging". So I ask them, "If that's the case, then why aren't you living all of the laws that are mentioned in the O.T., especially the ones in Leviticus?"

They say, "Those laws were fulfilled when Jesus came to earth, and he became the new law". I then say, "Well then what happened to the part where his ways are unchanging? Then I get some stuttering and stammering, then some answers that don't make any sense.

---

Ahh yes, the mormons.....

I could write a lot about what I think about them, but I won't. Just as I don't berate them when they come up to talk to me. Because what I think is very negative and born of frustration. So I simply laugh and inside I feel sad for them and their brainwashing program. This leads to frustration for me, because no matter what I say, they won't listen. They don't dare listen. They are quite used to their fantasy world. I feel the same way about many religions.

It took me a VERY long time to overcome the negative feelings that I had for the mormons. I was furious that I had spent so many years devoted to that church, including serving two missions for them, and paying a LOT of money to them (tithes, offerings, etc.). After investigating the church thoroughly for months, and finding it was false and based on lies, I was so upset that I had to join a support group to get over the anger. I have to be honest and say that I'm not totally over the anger. This manifests when a mormon crosses me and won't listen to anything I have to say, but they feel totally free to "bear their testimony" to me when I don't want to hear it. I also feel the anger rise (sometimes fury) when they tell me where I'm going when I die, who I'm serving (devil), how "deceived" I am (who told them?), and when they shun me (like family members have) because I don't see things the way they do. I also get really upset when they point fingers (like they are doing to the gay population right now). It's all just very, very sad. However, truth be told...I can't totally fault them. I used to be EXACTLY like that in the past, so I know what mind set they're in. They seriously think they are doing the "righteous" thing.

Kristy, I am very happy for you that you broke out of it. It gives me hope that others might see the bull$hit that it is and breakout too.

Me, too...I can't even tell you how grateful I am to have broken free of it. I have to thank a High Priest in the church who found the truth on the internet and got me to look at the church records, the old diaries and journals and history books, etc. I was trembling when I found it all...but I'm so glad I did. I never was seriously happy in the church, and this caused me to feel, on a constant basis, that I was somehow "unworthy". I never felt I measured up to God. What a sad, sad way to live.

As a side note, I do believe in Jesus, but laugh at the bible, as I think so would Jesus.

I have mixed feelings about Jesus. I want to believe he existed, but do NOT want to believe in a "Father" (God) who would create us the way we are - weakness and all - and then tell us to "get over it, or else". And since we can't get over it on our own because he created us to be dip-sh*ts in nature, he sent down 'his only son' to get the whooping for us. That sounds ridiculously mean.

I CAN wrap myself around the idea that a Jesus exists and was crucified, but only because people thought his teachings were radical and blasphemous.

Have you or anyone on here ever watched Zeitgeist? That show shook me up bad when I first saw it quite some time ago. But since then, it has made me really think and wonder if Jesus is just a myth. I honestly don't know what to think. I just have no clue on this one...was Jesus really real??

---

All faiths have the positive purpose of teaching their followers to believe in something greater than themselves.
All religious dogma, however, uses that belief to control them by making the religious leaders a representative of that greater.

True. But if only they could leave it at realizing there is something wonderful and great - a creator. The dogma - that's like poison in the drink. That's like a gross oil spill in the ocean. I remember in my church having to teach my children a song called "Follow the Prophet". The word included "follow the prophet, don't go astray, follow the prophet, HE knows the way". {{cringe}} That was such a way to start teaching our kids, when they were tiny, to not rely upon their own inner voice, but instead to listen to an "authority" in the church - a leader - because he had connections to God that we didn't possess. One of the leaders of the church actually got up and addressed the church and said, "When the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done."

Yet, as the world has witnessed in recent decades, these religious leaders are no different than anyone else. And sometimes, they are even more negatively biased.

I can attest to that first-hand. I had married into a family that had leaders of the church (including a major leader - like the "quorum of the twelve") in the family. There were things I witnessed of them that were less than holy. We are all human, and we all make major mistakes. The sad thing is, a lot of people who take on leadership positions, very often paint themselves as infallible.

I am working very hard to try and love them all unconditionally, though. This will be/IS one of my greatest tests.

---

I just feel I have to say that I happen to know a person with a brilliant, shining open heart who is a Mormon. I would put a bet on the fact that she's a wanderer and isn't awakened yet...... Although I understand your frustration, I can't say that all Mormon are bad or ignorant as much as I could say that about any other group. Not to mention another bright and shining example of a person who has chosen to experience the Mormon religious structure during this life is reading this... kristy1111!

Thanks! Yes, I agree...I know of many, many mormons who are such sweet people and they only want to do what's right. I also recognize, however, that if you challenge their beliefs, they can turn quite venomous and hostile (not all, of course). It's been termed "Righteous retribution". My mom is a staunch mormon and she is a stellar human being...with faults, of course. But boy!! Don't cross her when it comes to her faith. ouch!!

I have a Facebook friend who is mormon - very active. She often shares her beliefs and faith, etc., and her love of God. But she can really turn harsh when someone presents something that she doesn't agree with. Recently she read an article about Stephen Hawking when he said he didn't believe a higher power created our universe. The friend got on Facebook and declared, "It was a very sad day for this planet when God created this pathetic waste of a little man! I hope he dies!! Now excuse me while I go throw up!!"

akkkk!!

I gently brought her behavior to her attention and she took me off of her newsfeed, etc. ;o)

I've had this type of experience with mormons and Christians many, many times. But bless their hearts - they seriously want to be 'righteous' and do the right thing. Reminds me of a Michael Moore show I saw recently where he confronted a preacher who a gay hater. He and his congregation picketed a young man's funeral who had been beaten to death for being gay. While his mother cried her eyes out, the preacher and his following yelled out things like "God hates fags!" and "This boy is in hell where he belongs!" Michael Moore showed some of the signs they carried around, including the "God hates Fags". I thought, "God 'hates'??" And I have never read anywhere in the Bible where God called a homosexual a 'fag'. I got tears in my eyes, because even though what these people are doing is very hateful and judgmental, they honestly feel they are doing the righteous thing and that they will be blessed by god for doing so. Kind of like suicide bombers believe they will be greatly rewarded in heaven for killing off people they deem to be the enemies of God.

Will this world ever be free from this type of dogma and judgmental hatred?

[gharghur]

Reading the Old Testament is an emotional jolt for me - negatively. (but I haven't read it for a looooong time). The "God" in the O.T. is a big mean dude.
Wow...what a destroyer and a jealous, self-centered type of entity. I've often talked to the Christians in my life about how they tell me that God is "the same today, yesterday and forever". They also tell me that "his ways are unchanging". So I ask them, "If that's the case, then why aren't you living all of the laws that are mentioned in the O.T., especially the ones in Leviticus?"
They say, "Those laws were fulfilled when Jesus came to earth, and he became the new law". I then say, "Well then what happened to the part where his ways are unchanging? Then I get some stuttering and stammering, then some answers that don't make any sense.

I am quite familar with the bible. The god in the OT is a demanding god. It starts expressing its power at the very beginning with Adam/Eve in the creation. This entity is a god, in a sense, but not the Creator. The OT offers two creations: one of YHWH and one of EL. These are in fact creation "stories" that were passed down from generation to generation. YHWH is actually a sixth density social memory complex that was granted permission to oversee the evolution of humanity on earth. Over time it was influenced by the negative energy 4th, 5th and 6th density Orion group: the 6th density negative I Am social memory complex. They seek control and gain power/energy from those they control. It is a love-theyself group with a pecking order power structure. This is the "god" typically portrayed in the bible.
Christians are correct, that god is never changing. But it's only a "god" not the Creator.
Jesus is also portrayed as a "god" in a similar sense. But he never claimed to be God, only the Son of Man. His purpose, allowed to incarnate from 4th density positive to earth, was to lead/prepare people to the new age - the 4th density. That is exactly what he preached, and it was distorted by the same powers that acclaimed the YHWH group ... a god.

I am working very hard to try and love them all unconditionally, though. This will be/IS one of my greatest tests.

This is your current catalyst.

[kristy1111]

I am quite familar with the bible. The god in the OT is a demanding god. It starts expressing its power at the very beginning with Adam/Eve in the creation. This entity is a god, in a sense, but not the Creator. The OT offers two creations: one of YHWH and one of EL. These are in fact creation "stories" that were passed down from generation to generation. YHWH is actually a sixth density social memory complex that was granted permission to oversee the evolution of humanity on earth. Over time it was influenced by the negative energy 4th, 5th and 6th density Orion group: the 6th density negative I Am social memory complex. They seek control and gain power/energy from those they control. It is a love-theyself group with a pecking order power structure. This is the "god" typically portrayed in the bible.
Christians are correct, that god is never changing. But it's only a "god" not the Creator.
Jesus is also portrayed as a "god" in a similar sense. But he never claimed to be God, only the Son of Man. His purpose, allowed to incarnate from 4th density positive to earth, was to lead/prepare people to the new age - the 4th density. That is exactly what he preached, and it was distorted by the same powers that acclaimed the YHWH group ... a god.

I am working very hard to try and love them all unconditionally, though. This will be/IS one of my greatest tests.

This is your current catalyst.

AMAZING!! Where did you get all of this information?? It sure makes sense! So, when Jesus said "I am the son of man" was he saying that he is just a human like the rest of us? But there's other parts of the Bible, isn't there, where he says "I am the son of God"? Or did just others say that about him....?

[gharghur]

Kristy,
We are all the sons/daughters of the Creator.
Information comes to those who follow the guidance of their higher-self and the Law.
"Seek and you shall find"
"Ask and you shall receive"
"Knock and the door shall be opened"
There is lots of truths in the bible. But it takes discernment and guidance to get through all the untruths.
namaste

[Monica]

My sister-in-law claims that she "knows" the Bible is the word of God, as he dictated it to the prophets, and that it's a perfectly correct, "word for word" dictation. I asked her how she 'knew' this and she said that people have actually found the "actual"..."original" first writings of the Bible, and that many, many copies have been made which are also word for word, perfectly matching the "original". I was like, "uuuuh...yeeeeah." And who made the decision that they were indeed "the" original? ;o)

Exactly. And I would take that a step further: EVEN IF it was 100% proven they have the original, what does that mean? Original...what? Original book written by humans.

Why is this book any different from other 'holy' books in other cultures? Every culture has its own versions of religion, some based on books. But ALL those books were...written by humans.

It is a presupposition that 'God' wrote the Bible. So the whole point about whether their version is 'original' or not becomes moot.

I haven't finished the LOO, but I can't wrap my mind around the idea of people trying to hurt other people (the STS people being the ones who want to hurt). I don't understand what they expect to gain.

It's difficult for us, as STO-oriented beings, to comprehend the appeal of the STS path. Why does God allow evil? is the perennial question that religions and philosophies have been struggling to make sense of for millennia.

What impressed me about the Law of One, among other things, was that it offered the most sensible answer to that question than any I had ever seen elsewhere. Rather than viewing life as a sorting hat, like in Harry Potter, with some souls going to 'heaven' and others to 'hell' 3D reality is viewed more as a school, in which young souls to learn, grow, and evolve. The STS entities are those who provide certain aspects of the curriculum, without which we wouldn't have catalyst. So in that sense, they too are serving the Creator.

This is just my own loose paraphrasing, and it's way oversimplified, of course.

I don't think anyone has an easy answer to the question about the existence of evil. But the Law of One comes the closest to answering that question, imo.

Are the STS entities humans AND disembodied entities? Could these be the "evil spirits" and "demons" and "devils" that are spoken of so often?

Yes and yes, methinks.

But as a Christian pastor once said, "The devil's no bigger than a flea on a gnat's behind...to those who serve the Lord." We needn't concern ourselves with the machinations and antics of the STS entities.

By the way, I've told some religious people that since leaving my past religion, I am no longer plagued by any kind of "evil spirits" that I used to fear greatly. I told them I don't even really think about stuff like that or give it my attention. They told me that this is a very bad sign, because it's showing that the devil is backing away from me, trying to get me to believe that he and the demons don't exist, so I will focus on staying away from the church.

They undoubtedly mean well, and aren't aware that their efforts are rather controlling and fear-based.

This can be rather awkward. For many years after leaving Christianity, I was hesitant to speak openly to my Christian friends. It has only been relatively recently that I realized that I was only feeding their own fears by walking on eggshells around them.

There's a fine line between respecting them and denying our own truth.

Exactly! Every human has their own opinions, beliefs, views, etc., all stemming from the conditioning they received as they grew up and even beyond. It's like the old Elephant story - each person feeling a different part of the same elephant and they all have different ways of describing it.

Exactly! My favorite metaphor.

This reminds me of cussing.

??

Reading the Old Testament is an emotional jolt for me - negatively. (but I haven't read it for a looooong time). The "God" in the O.T. is a big mean dude.
Wow...what a destroyer and a jealous, self-centered type of entity. I've often talked to the Christians in my life about how they tell me that God is "the same today, yesterday and forever". They also tell me that "his ways are unchanging". So I ask them, "If that's the case, then why aren't you living all of the laws that are mentioned in the O.T., especially the ones in Leviticus?"

They say, "Those laws were fulfilled when Jesus came to earth, and he became the new law". I then say, "Well then what happened to the part where his ways are unchanging? Then I get some stuttering and stammering, then some answers that don't make any sense.

Oh yes, been there done that!

Ya know, I can't help but wonder how much of this indoctrination is responsible for a lot of the discord in the world, and even violence. It's the same way of thinking that results in the violence in the Middle East. The difference is only in degree.

I once read, on another forum a few years ago, a post by a non-Christian who told the Christians he could never be a Christian, because he wasn't willing to sacrifice his morals to do so.

That really did a number on my head!

This person went on to say that he could never be a Christian, because he wasn't willing to worship a being that was clearly a wrathful, violent, vengeful tyrant!

It was sort of the like the child pointing out that the emperor had no clothes...

It took me a VERY long time to overcome the negative feelings that I had for the mormons. I was furious that I had spent so many years devoted to that church, including serving two missions for them, and paying a LOT of money to them (tithes, offerings, etc.). After investigating the church thoroughly for months, and finding it was false and based on lies, I was so upset that I had to join a support group to get over the anger. I have to be honest and say that I'm not totally over the anger. This manifests when a mormon crosses me and won't listen to anything I have to say, but they feel totally free to "bear their testimony" to me when I don't want to hear it. I also feel the anger rise (sometimes fury) when they tell me where I'm going when I die, who I'm serving (devil), how "deceived" I am (who told them?), and when they shun me (like family members have) because I don't see things the way they do. I also get really upset when they point fingers (like they are doing to the gay population right now). It's all just very, very sad. However, truth be told...I can't totally fault them. I used to be EXACTLY like that in the past, so I know what mind set they're in. They seriously think they are doing the "righteous" thing.

That's so ironic...everything you just described is exactly what I experienced with evangelical Christianity, and a Mormon friend told me how much the evangelicals shunned her, her friends and their children.

Me, too...I can't even tell you how grateful I am to have broken free of it. I have to thank a High Priest in the church who found the truth on the internet and got me to look at the church records, the old diaries and journals and history books, etc. I was trembling when I found it all...but I'm so glad I did. I never was seriously happy in the church, and this caused me to feel, on a constant basis, that I was somehow "unworthy". I never felt I measured up to God. What a sad, sad way to live.

I have no idea what you are referring to by documents, lies, etc. but I think it's safe to say that such can be found in any organized religion.

I have mixed feelings about Jesus. I want to believe he existed, but do NOT want to believe in a "Father" (God) who would create us the way we are - weakness and all - and then tell us to "get over it, or else". And since we can't get over it on our own because he created us to be dip-sh*ts in nature, he sent down 'his only son' to get the whooping for us. That sounds ridiculously mean.

Agreed! The whole 'died for your sins' stuff doesn't work for me. I find the whole premise, well, kinda like other primitive myths and stories.

I CAN wrap myself around the idea that a Jesus exists and was crucified, but only because people thought his teachings were radical and blasphemous.

According to Ra, Jesus did really exist. But his life and mission were drastically different than the way Christianity paints them.

Have you or anyone on here ever watched Zeitgeist?

Yes

That show shook me up bad when I first saw it quite some time ago. But since then, it has made me really think and wonder if Jesus is just a myth. I honestly don't know what to think. I just have no clue on this one...was Jesus really real??

You don't need to toss out respect for Jesus when you toss out the dogma built up in his name. Even Carla has utmost reverence for Jesus.

Personally, I see him as one of many teachers who have been to this planet.

[kristy1111]

There's a fine line between respecting them and denying our own truth.

Exactly!! I tried to be careful around other people for a short time, or if I was just too lazy or stressed to "get into it" with them. But...I have found that they feel they have the right to blazingly and blaringly tout their truths to me with no holds barred, so I just "tell it like it is" according to my truth in the simplest way I can (and I'm not known for being 'simple'...hehe). One mormon lady tried to blow me out of the water a couple of weeks ago, and was blasting her truths to me with the air of "I'm right no matter what so deal with it."

She then ended her screams with "When it comes to truth, I am not one to mince words!"

I then expressed my own feelings on the subject at hand, and ended with "I don't mince words, either." heheh...! ;o)

This reminds me of cussing.

Monica: ??

OOOPS! Didn't quite elaborate on that one, did I! ;o) What I mean is, it reminds me of cussing because cussing can be viewed according to one's conditioning. I was brought up around cussing, but told they were "naughty words". My parents cussed all the time, but if I repeated their words, I got slapped.

As a mormon, I was told that those who cuss are following evil, and don't have enough good things in their head to occupy their time, etc. I would go into insane repentance if I even said "damn". guilt guilt guilt.

BUT, my point is, viewing cuss words is like viewing the elephant. I could be the queen on a little island of 100 inhabitants. I could create a language all my own. Perhaps one word I make up is "oobawibby". I could tell my people that this word was wicked and evil, and was the lowest form of insult known to our community and mankind at large. From then on, "oobawibby" would be strongly avoided, and only used in rebellion or by accident, followed by repentance I am sure.

Anybody outside my island wouldn't think twice if they heard "oobawibby", other than the fact that it's a really odd word. No offense would be taken and none implied.

Okay, so let's say I stub my toe and it hurts like @#$!. I may scream out "F*CK!!" It was a release of painful emotion for me. As an ex sweetheart of mine said recently, "I only use the "F bomb" occasionally, especially to help me find my keys". hehehe... ;o)

But what if I say to someone, "You are a stupid f*ck head!!". There was intent behind that word. It was calculated to cause pain.

I think words are just sound waves, but it's the intent, and the intent only that give them power. But it seems that religious people don't understand that. (I certainly didn't when I was religious - I was too scared of offending god).

My husband is full blood German, and he's occasionally said some choice cuss words in his native tongue. I didn't understand him nor was I offended nor did I feel any "evil". But if he said those words in Germany, around religious folks especially, the air would have been markedly thicker.

Ya know, I can't help but wonder how much of this indoctrination is responsible for a lot of the discord in the world, and even violence. It's the same way of thinking that results in the violence in the Middle East. The difference is only in degree.

I believe that it is responsible with all of my heart and soul.

I once read, on another forum a few years ago, a post by a non-Christian who told the Christians he could never be a Christian, because he wasn't willing to sacrifice his morals to do so.

I laughed SO hard after I read this! BELLY laugh!!

This person went on to say that he could never be a Christian, because he wasn't willing to worship a being that was clearly a wrathful, violent, vengeful tyrant!

No lie, eh? I said that to Christian's before, too, and they said that it's "tough love" and then they said that God never changes, and he is the boss. Holy cow, if he never changes, that's even scarier. I often wonder what peoples' "pull" to "heaven" is if it involves being with a "father" like this. {{shaking head}} Many new-ager friends have told me that if they're going to hell, they're excited about it because they'll all be with their friends. ;o)

That's so ironic...everything you just described is exactly what I experienced with evangelical Christianity, and a Mormon friend told me how much the evangelicals shunned her, her friends and their children.

Evangelical Christians hate mormons because they believe that mormons don't worship the same Jesus as they do. They have different views of the Godhead, and the christians view the mormon diety as evil and created by the devil to deceive many people. So they are on a quest to 'save' the mormons.

I have no idea what you are referring to by documents, lies, etc. but I think it's safe to say that such can be found in any organized religion.

Well, it has to be understood that mormons claim that their church is THE only true church on the face of the earth, as created by Jesus during his life ministry, and all other churches are "an abomination" and that they "draw near to God with their lips but far from him in their hearts". The church's foundation is based upon a "vision" by Joseph Smith, Jr., the truth and veracity of the Book of Mormon, other visions, polygamy, etc., etc., and also believing in the people that supposedly exists that were mentioned strongly in the Book of Mormon. The mormons also believe that Native Americans are THE descendants of a Book of Mormon prophet named Lehi who came to the Americas a long time ago. Joseph Smith swore that they were. Well, the science of DNA was non-existent back then, but now that it's available, it has been found after studying thousands and thousands of Indians that there is ZERO Israelite DNA in them. Not one teeny bit. And all of the places where huge battles supposedly took place (in the Book of Mormon) have ZERO evidence of such battles - and these battles supposedly had *millions* dying. No swords, no shields, no armour, no pottery, no bones, no...nothing. ouch. I guess the god of the Bible let the remants of past wars and peoples be evident, but mormons have to live on faith alone. Just stuff like that...nothing in the mormon church stood the test of intense study. Nothing.

[Etude in B Minor]

I think we need to be compassionate towards all those struggling towards the light. I look at the intolerance of some religious people towards others outside their religion as "the thorn that protects the rose". These people are in a fragile state where they are just waking up to a greater reality (and aren't we all often a little grumpy when waking up?). Their strong righteous beliefs are a way to keep them focused on god and prevent them from sliding back into sleep. Once they wake up more fully they will begin to appreciate the wisdom in other paths to the creator. As Sri Ramakrishna said "there are many ways to get to the roof".

If you want to interact with these strongly religious people you could try finding a common ground. For example, I have a friend who is a charismatic christian (pentecostalist). They are very set in their ways, and one of the focuses of their church is on loving your fellow man, but they also believe that sinners will go to hell for eternity. Rather than trying to talk them out of this contradictory view, I try to focus on the loving your neighbor part with them and try to get them to move towards the bodhisattva ideal (without calling it that, of course) where makes a vow to help everyone even if they might be an unrepentant sinner. I have found in the past that fundamentalist Christians are often receptive to the bodhisattva ideal once you explain it to them in a way that fits entirely within their dogma.

[Monica]

I have found that they feel they have the right to blazingly and blaringly tout their truths to me with no holds barred, so I just "tell it like it is" according to my truth in the simplest way I can (and I'm not known for being 'simple'...hehe).

Sometimes that's appropriate!

Okay, so let's say I stub my toe and it hurts like @#$!. I may scream out "F*CK!!" It was a release of painful emotion for me. As an ex sweetheart of mine said recently, "I only use the "F bomb" occasionally, especially to help me find my keys". hehehe... ;o)

But what if I say to someone, "You are a stupid f*ck head!!". There was intent behind that word. It was calculated to cause pain.

I think words are just sound waves, but it's the intent, and the intent only that give them power. But it seems that religious people don't understand that. (I certainly didn't when I was religious - I was too scared of offending god).

Totally agree! When my hubby and I first got married, whenever he would curse or use the F word, I would turn beet red and get all uptight! It was most uncomfortable for me! My Catholic upbringing made me just cringe!

Well, over the years I sort of got immune to it. I realized he was only saying those words when he was fixing the sink, or couldn't find his hammer, or whatever. I gradually began to realize it was just a release for him.

My husband did honor my wishes and never cussed in front of our son. Ironically, it was I who first introduced our teenage son to profanity! (NOT something I'm proud of!) But then, later, with him getting into heavy metal music, the F word became nothing of any consequence. It is now used as a mere adjective to mean 'very.' To say "the concert was effin' awesome" is the equivalent to saying "the concert was really awesome" or "very awesome" or "stupendously awesome" - it's just an expression.

Sometimes that word just fits!

But if he said those words in Germany, around religious folks especially, the air would have been markedly thicker.

HAHA!

I believe that it is responsible with all of my heart and soul.

Yeah me too.

I laughed SO hard after I read this! BELLY laugh!!

Ha! Yeah can you imagine how this might do a number on their heads?

No lie, eh? I said that to Christian's before, too, and they said that it's "tough love" and then they said that God never changes, and he is the boss. Holy cow, if he never changes, that's even scarier. I often wonder what peoples' "pull" to "heaven" is if it involves being with a "father" like this. {{shaking head}} Many new-ager friends have told me that if they're going to hell, they're excited about it because they'll all be with their friends. ;o)

I sometimes tell my fundamentalist friends, that if 'God' is so cruel as to sentence 80% of the world's population to eternal torture (something I couldn't even do!) then why in the world would I want to spend eternity with him?

the christians view the mormon diety as evil and created by the devil to deceive many people. So they are on a quest to 'save' the mormons.

And Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, and everyone else.

Well, it has to be understood that mormons claim that their church is THE only true church on the face of the earth

Well that's pretty typical Christian stuff. They all think that.

The mormons also believe that Native Americans are THE descendants of a Book of Mormon prophet named Lehi who came to the Americas a long time ago. Joseph Smith swore that they were. Well, the science of DNA was non-existent back then, but now that it's available, it has been found after studying thousands and thousands of Indians that there is ZERO Israelite DNA in them. Not one teeny bit. And all of the places where huge battles supposedly took place (in the Book of Mormon) have ZERO evidence of such battles - and these battles supposedly had *millions* dying. No swords, no shields, no armour, no pottery, no bones, no...nothing. ouch. I guess the god of the Bible let the remants of past wars and peoples be evident, but mormons have to live on faith alone. Just stuff like that...nothing in the mormon church stood the test of intense study. Nothing.

Ouch. I wonder how the church is handling this? Are members leaving in droves? Or are they justifying the lack of evidence?

Still, in all fairness, I found my Mormon friends to be much less judgmental than my born-again friends.

But that's just a generality. I guess they all have their dogmas. But no Mormon has ever told me I was satanic for wearing crystal earrings, and I've been told that a number of times by those of other Christian religions.

Ah well. They have a lot of fear, don't they? The answer is always the same: love them and have compassion for them. But I do understand the need to vent. I was pretty traumatized by a born-again Christian who told me I was satanic, at a time when I was 9 months pregnant and very emotionally vulnerable. It took me awhile to get over that!