The consequence of turning femanine equality into an ideology

[Diana]

Okay. First of all, I didn't pick that battle, if that's what you meant. I was trying to diffuse some of the focus on what's wrong, and perhaps focus on any progress we may have made as a culture. Your search engine results tell a bleak story. But when you consider the bulk of human population it's not surprising.

I meant more that my picking of the battle was absurd, didn't mean to make that accusation towards you. I just felt silly even perpetuating the argument.

Got it.

What surprises me is that MORE people didn't speak out against the hate speech! If we're actually all one, and as APW says, anything that happens to one gender happens to the other - then why aren't there any men who are upset that e_s called women lazy and without value? (This was a blanket statement he made, not "some women" or "I believe this could be the case". It was a full stop.) Nick presented what could possibly have been a fruitful topic of discussion, but it got dragged into the mud with extremism. The fact that the "women blowing up on him" are again, perceived as the aggressors in this topic, is ludicrous. They weren't blowing up on him because he's a man, they were blowing up on him because he said hateful things about women. It just so happens that these two things usually coincide, by nature of polarity.

And yet there are different ways to absorb content and act or react to content.

I personally did not feel offended by E_S's comments. They seemed like triggered responses to me on the one hand, which may derive from difficulties he had. On the other hand, I'm not in that paradigm of defending womankind because I have no attachment to it. I know I'm not lazy. I know women who are not lazy. I know women and men who are lazy, and I know men who are not. So what difference do his comments make to me, or even on behalf of humanity, when they are HIS (I assume E_S is a man) distortions or issues, not mine. One may say they are humanity's, but my view of that is to work on self, as might have been gathered from my posts.

[Glow]

Okay. First of all, I didn't pick that battle, if that's what you meant. I was trying to diffuse some of the focus on what's wrong, and perhaps focus on any progress we may have made as a culture. Your search engine results tell a bleak story. But when you consider the bulk of human population it's not surprising.

I meant more that my picking of the battle was absurd, didn't mean to make that accusation towards you. I just felt silly even perpetuating the argument.

Got it.

What surprises me is that MORE people didn't speak out against the hate speech! If we're actually all one, and as APW says, anything that happens to one gender happens to the other - then why aren't there any men who are upset that e_s called women lazy and without value? (This was a blanket statement he made, not "some women" or "I believe this could be the case". It was a full stop.) Nick presented what could possibly have been a fruitful topic of discussion, but it got dragged into the mud with extremism. The fact that the "women blowing up on him" are again, perceived as the aggressors in this topic, is ludicrous. They weren't blowing up on him because he's a man, they were blowing up on him because he said hateful things about women. It just so happens that these two things usually coincide, by nature of polarity.

And yet there are different ways to absorb content and act or react to content.

I personally did not feel offended by E_S's comments. They seemed like triggered responses to me on the one hand, which may derive from difficulties he had. On the other hand, I'm not in that paradigm of defending womankind because I have no attachment to it. I know I'm not lazy. I know women who are not lazy. I know women and men who are lazy, and I know men who are not. So what difference do his comments make to me, or even on behalf of humanity, when they are HIS (I assume E_S is a man) distortions or issues, not mine. One may say they are humanity's, but my view of that is to work on self, as might have been gathered from my posts.

Your approach. How has that been helping the world elvolve over the last 2000 know years of history where everyone did that. Everything stayed the same. So some people have to "be paradigm breakers".

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

But creation as we know it is polarized.  To break one paradigm will create a new one it seems.

I think over the last 2000 years humanity has come a long way even with the severity of racial and sexual inequality being strongly prevalent.  Jesus got crucified, MLK got shot, reality changes across the landscape of Earth, but in large areas it has a consensus, you know?

So it seems like there are core areas, like Saudi Arabia, that outlaw those kind of energies strongly to control them more easily to subjugate them.  Those areas, women have survived by not saying anything for a long time, and only recently did such acts like refusing to wear a hijab become acceptable somewhat-ish...So equality is moving along and about even in the more...disturbing areas of the world.  It just takes time.

Any push for equality is a movement that can hurt or harm the, I imagine, inevitable outcome of equality.  So I think it's only fair that we not meet perceptions of hatred with hatred.  I think Nick has a pretty good thread going on, and that we're kind of proving some points of this topic with how we all so quickly view opinions of this subject with great polarity contrast.  I don't see anything where others see very much a lot.

I'm trying to put myself in your shoes, to understand your point of view better, but I'm sure anything I think will be wrong, so I'm just going to ask you, all of you.

Why is it so frustrating for us?  What can I do to help see your point of view?  What can we do to help each other?  Is there anything you want me to understand?

And finally, what can we all do to help end inequality?

[Diana]

Your approach. How has that been helping the world elvolve over the last 2000 know years of history where everyone did that. Everything stayed the same. So some people have to "be paradigm breakers".

You seem to have a very specific expectation of what constitutes breaking paradigms. Activism is not the only way. Do you not have any respect for those (for instance) who change thought from simply being an example? How about those who won't follow the accepted system? Or those who aren't affected by societal constructs because they are outside of it. Does that energy not have anything to add to the whole? Must it be physically (words, wars, laws, protests) done to make a difference?

Might you consider a wider view?

[Glow]

Dude I hate no one. No one. I'm not sure where you are getting that. You want to see how I'm seeing this as you say? See there is no other, I am not other so being me how would you want the world to treat you and we all need embracing as equally valuble not for our bodies or genitalia or race but because it's right.

Did you not read my post to e.s. about as him I would likely be trying to do as he is? Avoid looking at it, avoid the inevitable change, I'd find it very uncomfortable and be more comfortable looking.

We truely are all one but we are all supposed to be learning and growing. paradigms need to change so we can experience new things. It's inevitable.

[Glow]

Your approach. How has that been helping the world elvolve over the last 2000 know years of history where everyone did that. Everything stayed the same. So some people have to "be paradigm breakers".

You seem to have a very specific expectation of what constitutes breaking paradigms. Activism is not the only way. Do you not have any respect for those (for instance) who change thought from simply being an example? How about those who won't follow the accepted system? Or those who aren't affected by societal constructs because they are outside of it. Does that energy not have anything to add to the whole? Must it be physically (words, wars, laws, protests) done to make a difference?

Might you consider a wider view?

I'm not an activist I simply reacted to hate speach. Just as I tell any friend being racist that it's not something I'm willing to listen to.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Dude I hate no one. No one. I'm not sure where you are getting that. You want to see how I'm seeing this as you say? See there is no other, I am not other so being me how would you want the world to treat you and we all need embracing as equally valuble not for our bodies or genitalia or race but because it's right.

Did you not read my post to e.s. about as him I would likely be trying to do as he is? Avoid looking at it, avoid the inevitable change, I'd  find it very uncomfortable and be more comfortable looking.

We truely are all one but we are all supposed to be learning and growing. paradigms need to change so we can experience new things. It's inevitable.

I agree with this, I just don't see how e_s's post was taken as hateful.  I read it as him expressing the way he saw things as being, and since I have an idea culturally where he lives, I saw it as relating to what he saw where he lived...  His comments sparked remarks about his post that did not reflect what I saw in his post.  I'm just trying to understand why some of us saw his post in those ways...

I think we all need equality because without it we'll never achieve our full potential as a species.  I do believe female equality needs to be achieved before racial equality, just by a manner of chakra design (red to orange).  I think you're as valid and rightful to feel and speak and be the way you have been, were, and will be as I have been, you're free and beautiful and always welcome to be yourself and who you are and who you want to be.  I'd hope you feel the same of e_s or I despite our ignorant or hateful opinions as they are perceived to be.  We make mistakes, won't you forgive us?

I offer an apology, for sounding like I was denigrating or belittling or insulting or derogatory towards women.  I'm sorry, I will try to be more receptive and respectful of you and the others I have offended as I had no desire to offend any of you.  Please know that I don't mean to be so upsetting and I will try, I promise, I will try to better discuss this topic with you all, so that we can all garnish some fruitful solutions or ideas for resolving the inequality in the world.

[Jade]

Jade, I especially believe that you are now just as much in hatred as you perceive e_s to be. My admiration of the female form is of its divinity. The body is a tool, I speak of admiring that which uses a tool so elegantly and eloquently and so powerfully in abstract and intuitive ways. I speak of an appreciation for the divine unconsciousness that is the feminine. Please understand... I'm being assigned traits others perceive of me. I just want us all to be treated with equality, and to not be inured or encumbered by the inequality perceived to be between us all...

You want to know what about this is frustrating? People would prefer to pretend things don't exist than to actually deal with problems. It's also a root illness in our society. Oh, I have a cold, better take some sudafed! Oh, a stomach ache? Drink that pepto bismol. We're all too happy to smooth over what may be perceived as "catalyst" by displacing it, numbing it, by taking a sip of the panacea of Oneness and moving on with our day.

Saying that we need to just focus on equality doesn't HEAL the problem. It forces an equilibrium that cannot be maintained without discussing thoroughly the underlying causes of the issue. To refuse to acknowledge these issues, to minimize them, invalidates people who have actually been hurt. We know as students of the Law of One that you can't just remove the tumor and hope the cancer goes away - you have to find the root cause (and it's probably not something so obvious as cigarettes). It takes hard, long work. You say you want to come to a common ground, but this takes many words exchanged and understanding towards those who you understand the least. I'm definitely working on the same goal that you are, whether you see it or not.

e_s posted a link to a blog that threw around "rape" in such a cavalier way - in fact, this is probably what I found most "hateful": his endorsement of the blog links, of which I only got through one. I've actually been raped. I've been objectified more times than I can count, repeatedly called a "dyke" while out at bars with short hair but not paying attention to men, disowned by my father for supporting my husband financially in his creative pursuits, been told by strangers that I'm "too pretty to have tattoos". Do you see why it is incendiary to post things like "Well I do love the female form" when our aestheticism has been the thing that has the most value? Should I have felt honor that I was raped because he was just so attracted to me that he couldn't help himself? This is the type of rhetoric people unconsciously perpetuate when they try to force others to ignore societal imbalances. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm being labeled as hateful because I refused to validate a comment about my physical appearance.

Here is a quote from Martin Luther King Jr that pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject. It's about racism, but I wasn't the first to draw the equivalency:

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

What does Ra say about "justice" and healing our planet?

26.30 Questioner: And then, can you describe the mechanism of the planetary healing?

Ra: I am Ra. Healing is a process of acceptance, forgiveness, and, if possible, restitution. The restitution not being available in time/space, there are many among your peoples now attempting restitution while in the physical.

C_A, if you still sincerely feel that I'm being more hateful than e_s, or making less of an attempt to be open and honest with my feelings, that you really should take a hard look at the biases you are carrying. Either way, I'm regretting that the post got deleted, because I'm afraid this is just the beginning of the gaslighting that is about to occur.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

restitution

noun
1.
reparation made by giving an equivalent or compensation for loss, damage, or injury caused; indemnification.

2.
the restoration of property or rights previously taken away, conveyed, or surrendered.

3.
restoration to the former or original state or position.

4.
Physics. the return to an original physical condition, especially after elastic deformation.

equality

noun
1.
the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability:
promoting equality of opportunity in the workplace.

2.
uniform character, as of motion or surface.

3.
Mathematics. a statement that two quantities are equal; equation.

And also...

Jade, I especially believe that you are now just as much in hatred as you perceive e_s to be. My admiration of the female form is of its divinity. The body is a tool, I speak of admiring that which uses a tool so elegantly and eloquently and so powerfully in abstract and intuitive ways. I speak of an appreciation for the divine unconsciousness that is the feminine. Please understand... I'm being assigned traits others perceive of me. I just want us all to be treated with equality, and to not be inured or encumbered by the inequality perceived to be between us all...

You want to know what about this is frustrating? People would prefer to pretend things don't exist than to actually deal with problems. It's also a root illness in our society. Oh, I have a cold, better take some sudafed! Oh, a stomach ache? Drink that pepto bismol. We're all too happy to smooth over what may be perceived as "catalyst" by displacing it, numbing it, by taking a sip of the panacea of Oneness and moving on with our day.

Is that not the prerogative of every one to do as they freely will?  Be frustrated, be moved, get mad!  Express yourself, that's all I ever want from anyone, express yourself, that way we all gain.

Saying that we need to just focus on equality doesn't HEAL the problem. It forces an equilibrium that cannot be maintained without discussing thoroughly the underlying causes of the issue. To refuse to acknowledge these issues, to minimize them, invalidates people who have actually been hurt. We know as students of the Law of One that you can't just remove the tumor and hope the cancer goes away - you have to find the root cause (and it's probably not something so obvious as cigarettes). It takes hard, long work. You say you want to come to a common ground, but this takes many words exchanged and understanding towards those who you understand the least. I'm definitely working on the same goal that you are, whether you see it or not.

I agree, but it begins paving the pathway to understanding which can lead to forgiveness which leads to...?
I have not refused to acknowledge the oppression of women, I have even pointed out that I do not understand how people can oppress anyone, we all have blood, we all bleed, we're all the same, we have bodies that bleed, minds that feel and think, emotions that move us all the same way, we're not nearly as different as we are similar.
I am not minimizing the severity of the oppression of women, including the loss of respect for them leading up their objectification and outright rape with justifications for rape being from everything as pathetic and lowly as 'because she was dressed a certain way' to something as asinine as 'I thought she wanted me to do it' while she was screaming and crying and thrashing about under your weight and force?  No no, no, I don't appreciate being lumped in with those qualities.  I simply want us to actually discuss these things, not argue about them, not get caught up in their turbulent emotions, but to figure out why, to discuss, not to accuse or point out or label one another.

I think I'm fulfilling this by continuing our discussion trying to clear up the many accusations we all have flying about while trying to continually find a bridge for us to agree upon.

e_s posted a link to a blog that through around "rape" in such a cavalier way - in fact, this is probably what I found most "hateful": his endorsement of the blog links, of which I only got through one. I've actually been raped. I've been objectified more times than I can count, repeatedly called a "dyke" while out at bars with short hair but not paying attention to men, disowned by my father for supporting my husband financially in his creative pursuits, been told by strangers that I'm "too pretty to have tattoos". Do you see why it is incendiary to post things like "Well I do love the female form" when our aestheticism has been the thing that has the most value? Should I have felt honor that I was raped because he was just so attracted to me that he couldn't help himself? This is the type of rhetoric people unconsciously perpetuate when they try to force others to ignore societal imbalances. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm being labeled as hateful because I refused to validate a comment about my physical appearance.

Wow, okay.  First, didn't read his blog, didn't felt I needed to to get what he was saying, but mostly I find it sad that he was censored in such a way without even being consulted to change his post first like what has once been done for me personally.  I've been in some similar situations as you Jade, you shouldn't believe your experiences are so indifferent for a man to empathize with.  I think your aggravation by my appreciation of the female qualities of existence is something you should consider exploring, I'm not talking about bodies.  I'm talking about qualities.  If you find my attraction to feminine qualities distasteful, then I can only say, may the shame you sell upon me be upon you instead.  I am proud of my appreciations of the female everything.  Without that love for something I believe myself to be more of than my own physical body can portray, I would be much more hateful and condescending, outright indignant towards women, that you call that very quality incendiary, I find just as incendiary.

I will not be ashamed for what I love, appreciate, and desire to know more of.

Here is a quote from Martin Luther King Jr that pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject. It's about racism, but I wasn't the first to draw the equivalency:

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

...Okay, um, I mean, for all I know I am all of those things, and anyone's view of me being such would be nice to be shared with me.  I do learn a lot about myself from other's opinions about me.  But I like to think equality is more than just acceptance of each other, and we're never going to get to even that point if we continue to assign ideas like 'this is for men' 'that's for women' 'only white people do that' 'black people do that'.  We need to move beyond the labels and stick to the one that matters, we're all humans, let's treat each other the way we would treat ANY human.

Even men, sitting on our high throne, now suffer from the loss of the divine feminine.  Did you ever notice how much the transgender community has grown lately?  It's mostly men, and if you ask me, they're trying to make restitution's for what has been done to women on an unconscious level, reducing themselves to shameful humiliated crossdressers slutting themselves out among other things.  Those are people harming themselves and their physical identities in their mind by pretending to be something they're not in a way that portrays poorly what they are trying to be.  Women are not sluts, they are not there to be shamed or humiliated or objectified in disturbingly attractive attire.  You are as I and I am as You.

Do you think it's not felt by the oppressor what they have done?  That all nazi's were evil and none of them sat under their bunks with their heads tucked away bawling hot tears clenching their hands violently over their ears at the echoing sounds of screams of those people they genocided so directly?  That the atrocities we commit on one another doesn't warp who we are??

Come on Jade, it's all there to be seen.  Equality is inevitable, even if it's outright outlawed, it will still eventually be.  Most specifically by design of evolution, I like to think considering the bias of our logos.

What does Ra say about "justice" and healing our planet?

26.30 Questioner: And then, can you describe the mechanism of the planetary healing?

Ra: I am Ra. Healing is a process of acceptance, forgiveness, and, if possible, restitution. The restitution not being available in time/space, there are many among your peoples now attempting restitution while in the physical.

That quote has no bearing to 'Justice' that I can see.  Restitution is not a form of Justice so much as the 'Justice System' with legally binding power to force such uses Restitution as one of it's tools of enforcement.

How do you link this quote to Justice?  Why is restitution considered Justice to you?

C_A, if you still sincerely feel that I'm being more hateful than e_s

Never said you were being more hateful, just that in your perception of hate, you've responded with hate by calling it hateful, which sums up about as much hate as I saw in e_s's post, and I should add, I did not read the blog links he posted, if they were as bad as you all make them out to be then is that valid reason to respond in kind for you?

I often feel like I'm assaulted on an energetic level in discussions like this for not being a women and thus unable to understand, but I try very hard to understand, I'm sorry if I've failed in that endeavor in your eyes.

Society raises men and women to be very polarized between one another, our perceptions of each other are then warped by what society broadcasts to us all.  That attractive men are men with power and money and status who are tall, dark, and handsome, that attractive women are woman of gullibility, submission, who must mold themselves in specific attire and makeup with a specific kind of personality to be more appealing.  Many other similar molds and schemes apply until finally we have a bunch of men who poorly treat women and a bunch of women who poorly treat men, viewing each other as failures and offensive to one another.

I think if you can't accept that women are just as capable of men at anything, then you aren't actually talking about women equality, but putting women on a pedestal above men as an example of how bad men can be, can saying men this and men that and us men and us boys, then us guys go, 'oh you ladies, you girls! Women, pah!' and then you go, 'Men! Ugh!' and we're polarized.

Tell me, do any of you act differently towards a very attractive man than you would a very unattractive man?  What about if that attractive man was a woman, or the unattractive man a woman?  How do these things like attractiveness and gender effect the way we interact with another?  Why does this happen?  Would the words said by the attractive man be taken the same way if said by an unattractive man?  What if the man, attractive or not, was a woman?

Why do these things effect how people interact with one another?  Why is it courteous to hold a door open for a woman, but not a man?  Why is a man considered less capable of being a parent than a woman?  Why are men not supposed to be the one who stays home and watches the children?

Gender equality starts with our removal of reducing one another to the pushed notions and qualities society assigns to the labels like 'Man' and 'Woman'.  Women and Men are equal, and only with that attitude, without pushing it with the same turbulence as hatred, can we incubate the roots of equality.

When you meet someone who says man is above woman, you should say they're equal.  When you meet someone who says woman is above man, you should say they're equal.  Anyone saying the same of races should be met with, they're equal.

If someone disagrees with this premise, and says that they are not equal, you should stand by your belief, that they are equal, and be an example, that you can believe even in the face of disbelief and say 'that's okay if you think that, but I believe men and women are inherently more similar than different, because they are more equal than they are apart.'

You can bring all the depth into this, but the moment those reasons become pedestals to hold a portion of humans above the rest of humanity, even if to say they are stronger, better, more resilient, you have cultivated separation.  No group of humans is better than any other, we all have our strengths and weaknesses and we all need each other to balance those attributes.

[Diana]

What does Ra say about "justice" and healing our planet?

26.30 Questioner: And then, can you describe the mechanism of the planetary healing?

Ra: I am Ra. Healing is a process of acceptance, forgiveness, and, if possible, restitution. The restitution not being available in time/space, there are many among your peoples now attempting restitution while in the physical.

It seems to me Ra is pointing out that it is not possible to get restitution beyond the physical, presumably because one likely wouldn't care at that point and perhaps there is no purpose beyond the physical. Restitution, to me, derives from a desire to be "paid back," or in a negative version, revenge.

Healing, for some people, may require restitution. But if you accept, and forgive, or rather, detach and let go, why would restitution be needed? In the context of this discussion regarding the oppression of women, how would it apply? I can see how in 3rd-world countries there might be programs to help women start businesses and the like. But here in the US, how is restitution made for sexual innuendo, insults, sexism, misogyny? I can't see how holding ignorance to the flame is helpful. 

Any thoughts?

[Glow]

CA I donk you mean any harm and are likely a good guy but I do understand Jades issue with you commenting about the female form(body) being what you are so in love with. Perhaps it was a wrong terminology issue but the largest part of the problem is a large percentage of men see women's value only as their body.

It's incredibly dehumanizing. I've had guy friends I really cared about ditch after years solely because I wouldn't sleep with them. First I'm married, second it was clear from the start we were friends. How is that insulting that I won't let you between my legs? Why isn't my friendship worth having even without sex? Oh that's right because I'm great and personality is exactly what you want in a friend for years but since my body is appealing and you can't separate women and sex if you can't have that too your going to take your ball and go home.

Actually I've always had guy friends thankfully not all men see a women's only worth as her body.
However saying it as you did in this thread was a bit of proving what we already know. Men mostly see us as bodies.

One of my friends has had his eyes opened this year. He and his guy buddies like to take pictures of women's asses in public, it's immature but I love him so would roll my eyes. Funny how out for dinner some guy wouldn't stop taking pictures of me and he was SOOO pissed. Like wanted to go beat the crap out of him. He could dehumanize other women but couldn't handle it when someone did it to me.

Then I had issues at my gym with a guy taking my picture when I'm working out or just standing staring, watching. It's so creepy I've finally decided to change to a women's only gym even though it's less equipped. Same friend in that storey above wants photo guy arrested. Totally overkill but he sees how messed up it is to treat women like that when it's me. He knows what those guys are thinking because he does/did the same but he sure as heck doesn't want me being thought of like that.

These posts are all getting way to long so I'm not going to reply to everything. I seriously don't think you mean any harm.

Understand though through your ego you are NOT going to get why it hurt seeing guys here we thought considered us equals all making comments mocking women attempts to bring attention to the way society dehumanizes us. Through your ego you will not understand the way women have experienced being treated as without value except for her bangabilty.

You seem aware enough you could ask to understand then meditate and see where the quiet takes you.

As myself as I said I love men. I hate when people say "man up" as if that means shut your emotions down, I hate when the world says "be a man and be a good provider". I married an art student, men are not wallets they are beautiful beings and society has closed so much of their heart off from themselves. We all have lost by suppression of the feminin because we all are both male and female.

The goal should be to develop both sides explore both sides to reach our fullest beauty but to do that as men you have to make the feminine seen as something that is valuable for much more than the body. I dare say the most beautiful part of feminine has zero to do with the body and if anything the "beautiful form" has camouflaged the true gift for recorded history.

[AnthroHeart]

I hear that women are generally more intuitive than men. Don't know if that's true.

[Glow]

I hear that women are generally more intuitive than men. Don't know if that's true.

I think it's only true because a lot of men suppress that feeling side just like the feminine sex has been suppressed. It's connected to emotions and things outside the physical. Society has dictated for a long time that men should focus on the material and anything dreamy or of the heart was womanly so weak and villified. This likely was done consiously by religious leaders to keep humanity following them and not trusting their own connection to the divine.

I have a good male friend wait 3 guy friends off the top of my head that have showed signs of being quiet accurately telepathic one even having clear accurate dream premonitions. They all just laugh it off almost desperate to deny their connection to something beyond logic.

[Jade]

Wow, okay.  First, didn't read his blog, didn't felt I needed to to get what he was saying, but mostly I find it sad that he was censored in such a way without even being consulted to change his post first like what has once been done for me personally.  I've been in some similar situations as you Jade, you shouldn't believe your experiences are so indifferent for a man to empathize with.  I think your aggravation by my appreciation of the female qualities of existence is something you should consider exploring, I'm not talking about bodies.  I'm talking about qualities.  If you find my attraction to feminine qualities distasteful, then I can only say, may the shame you sell upon me be upon you instead.  I am proud of my appreciations of the female everything.  Without that love for something I believe myself to be more of than my own physical body can portray, I would be much more hateful and condescending, outright indignant towards women, that you call that very quality incendiary, I find just as incendiary.

I will not be ashamed for what I love, appreciate, and desire to know more of.

Joseph, you know I love you and don't think poorly or lowly of you. It's just shocking to see anyone say that what e_s said in his post wasn't hateful.

I also have not yet once in this thread (or, anywhere that I can think of) said anything about men being this or that. You are reading this into my words. If you find a specific instance, please show me.

Have I ever said I hate men? Have I ever implied it? Have I ever admitted to ever feeling misandry? Don't you see how resonating with misogyny on any level, even if it was in the past, might be unbalanced, might skew your opinions? Both you and earth_spirit have made the point that you hated women in the past. Are you sure you have completely evolved past this?

You made the comment about "women's form" with the explicit caveat that you also felt this way about men but "less sexually", immediately after you mentioned your porn addiction. You made it sexual. The reason this "triggers" me is because you seem so blind to how you are perpetuating what I perceive to be the issue, what Glow initially stated was the issue. Women are systemically reduced to being valued for only their appearance. Then, in the above paragraph you state that if you didn't appreciate the female "qualities" that you would be much more hateful towards women? I'm sorry, this sounds like you are still only seeing a shallow view of women.

You know how I treat an attractive wo/man and an unattractive wo/man? Exactly the same, because I don't judge people on their attractiveness. The thought literally never occurs to me. Unless someone has some jarring physical deformity, I really don't notice much about anything about how anyone looks. Do other (awake) people operate on a system where they are judging people by their physical appearance?

We can talk all we want about love and light and unity but, if you can't understand why I have grievances, then we still have a huge gap to cover before we can get there.

Here's a thought experiment. What if I (or someone else) said this:

"Black people are too lazy to contribute anything meaningful to society. Black people break the minds of their children and indoctrinate their sons to be subservient slaves and their daughters to be narcissistic airheads. Black people actually hate and oppress black people more than white people oppress black people, they hold themselves, and everyone else, down."

Is this hate speech? Yes/no.

[Billy]

But here in the US, how is restitution made for sexual innuendo, insults, sexism, misogyny? I can't see how holding ignorance to the flame is helpful. 

Any thoughts?

In this instance I think an apology could be seen as restitution.  

[Billy]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with appreciating or being attracted to someones form.  I like looking at healthy people, because it acts as a motivator for me to value my own health more.  I mean there are obviously boundaries, like taking secretive pictures or staring without any thought for the other persons comfort, but looking at someone because you like their appearance, be it a man or woman, I don't think is sexist.  I think it can be quite innocent.  If that becomes the measure by which you determine a persons worth, then yes, I agree that is a serious issue, and I will also concede that women have it harder than men in that regard.  I think that the big difference in rates of anorexia between men and women attest to this, but I could be wrong about that.  We are a very body/appearance focused society, and this affects all of us, it has deeply affected me for half of my life and continues to.  I can't tell you how many times I've had the thought that 'if I looked better, life would be better'. 

The topic of this thread is one of my real weaknesses and I hope that we can continue to talk about this in a way which is mutually beneficial.     

[Glow]

Wow, okay.  First, didn't read his blog, didn't felt I needed to to get what he was saying, but mostly I find it sad that he was censored in such a way without even being consulted to change his post first like what has once been done for me personally.  I've been in some similar situations as you Jade, you shouldn't believe your experiences are so indifferent for a man to empathize with.  I think your aggravation by my appreciation of the female qualities of existence is something you should consider exploring, I'm not talking about bodies.  I'm talking about qualities.  If you find my attraction to feminine qualities distasteful, then I can only say, may the shame you sell upon me be upon you instead.  I am proud of my appreciations of the female everything.  Without that love for something I believe myself to be more of than my own physical body can portray, I would be much more hateful and condescending, outright indignant towards women, that you call that very quality incendiary, I find just as incendiary.

I will not be ashamed for what I love, appreciate, and desire to know more of.

Joseph, you know I love you and don't think poorly or lowly of you. It's just shocking to see anyone say that what e_s said in his post wasn't hateful.

I also have not yet once in this thread (or, anywhere that I can think of) said anything about men being this or that. You are reading this into my words. If you find a specific instance, please show me.

Have I ever said I hate men? Have I ever implied it? Have I ever admitted to ever feeling misandry? Don't you see how resonating with misogyny on any level, even if it was in the past, might be unbalanced, might skew your opinions? Both you and earth_spirit have made the point that you hated women in the past. Are you sure you have completely evolved past this?

You made the comment about "women's form" with the explicit caveat that you also felt this way about men but "less sexually", immediately after you mentioned your porn addiction. You made it sexual. The reason this "triggers" me is because you seem so blind to how you are perpetuating what I perceive to be the issue, what Glow initially stated was the issue. Women are systemically reduced to being valued for only their appearance. Then, in the above paragraph you state that if you didn't appreciate the female "qualities" that you would be much more hateful towards women? I'm sorry, this sounds like you are still only seeing a shallow view of women.

You know how I treat an attractive wo/man and an unattractive wo/man? Exactly the same, because I don't judge people on their attractiveness. The thought literally never occurs to me. Unless someone has some jarring physical deformity, I really don't notice much about anything about how anyone looks. Do other (awake) people operate on a system where they are judging people by their physical appearance?

We can talk all we want about love and light and unity but, if you can't understand why I have grievances, then we still have a huge gap to cover before we can get there.

Here's a thought experiment. What if I (or someone else) said this:

"Black people are too lazy to contribute anything meaningful to society. Black people break the minds of their children and indoctrinate their sons to be subservient slaves and their daughters to be narcissistic airheads. Black people actually hate and oppress black people more than white people oppress black people, they hold themselves, and everyone else, down."

Is this hate speech? Yes/no.

I couldn't figure out how to phrase it but since you started I too CA think it is a sign for you if you couldn't see what was offensive in es post.

I'm sure you are on a great path but your eyes are still sort of closed here.
Saying it just reflected his experiences so is valid to be stated shows a lack of understanding to why a woman's behaviour might be a way he perceives as manipulative or lazy.

It reduces people who have been marginalized already then are perpetuating further marjinalization by generalizing about an entire sexes character. How exactly is that not hate speach?

Edited because it made perfect sense at 3am but nope.

[Glow]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with appreciating or being attracted to someones form.  I like looking at healthy people, because it acts as a motivator for me to value my own health more.  I mean there are obviously boundaries, like taking secretive pictures or staring without any thought for the other persons comfort, but looking at someone because you like their appearance, be it a man or woman, I don't think is sexist.  I think it can be quite innocent.  If that becomes the measure by which you determine a persons worth, then yes, I agree that is a serious issue, and I will also concede that women have it harder than men in that regard.  I think that the big difference in rates of anorexia between men and women attest to this, but I could be wrong about that.  We are a very body/appearance focused society, and this affects all of us, it has deeply affected me for half of my life and continues to.  I can't tell you how many times I've had the thought that 'if I looked better, life would be better'. 

The topic of this thread is one of my real weaknesses and I hope that we can continue to talk about this in a way which is mutually beneficial.     

I think you are right on all counts.
Add to the anorexia though do you know 20% of all implants cause health effects within 10 years that require removal? Generally even ones that don't cause health effects need replacement after 15 years.

Even outside that the adhesions caused by the surgery frequently effect natural range of motion. I am athletic and as I said play hard. As a result I see a few ART practitioners from time to time for injuries. Do you know 3 different practitioners first question to upper body pain be it arm, shoulder or back is to ask if I've had implants? I thought it was funny the first time because mine are neither fake or huge but apparently it's actually a big issue hense why it was the first question with different practitioners.

Do you see masses of men putting these implants in despite significant health conserns, and expense? No and it's because men havent been taught they need to live up to physical ideals society set for them. It's a really sad thing that implants are so common now butt and breast, not a sign women feel valued for who they are that's for sure.

[Billy]

I want to also say that I believe that both men and women have their own unique privileges and disadvantages, and that comparing the two, to see which is worse is silly.  Women have their problems and men have their problems, why does it need to be a competition?  I think it is fine for movements to have as their focus one group or set of issues, otherwise I don't think much ground could be covered, as things wouldn't be specific enough and there would be too many paths to go down and things to juggle.    

[Jade]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with appreciating or being attracted to someones form.  I like looking at healthy people, because it acts as a motivator for me to value my own health more.  I mean there are obviously boundaries, like taking secretive pictures or staring without any thought for the other persons comfort, but looking at someone because you like their appearance, be it a man or woman, I don't think is sexist.  I think it can be quite innocent.  If that becomes the measure by which you determine a persons worth, then yes, I agree that is a serious issue, and I will also concede that women have it harder than men in that regard.  I think that the big difference in rates of anorexia between men and women attest to this, but I could be wrong about that.  We are a very body/appearance focused society, and this affects all of us, it has deeply affected me for half of my life and continues to.  I can't tell you how many times I've had the thought that 'if I looked better, life would be better'. 

The topic of this thread is one of my real weaknesses and I hope that we can continue to talk about this in a way which is mutually beneficial.     

Okay, let me attempt to clarify. I'm not against people finding other people attractive, or complimenting them, or even receiving compliments. The reason my own boundary was crossed was because we are talking about sexism, and someone tried to placate me by telling me how much they appreciate the "female form". Now, "appreciating the female form" is a colloquialism that has a specific meaning, usually referring to finding the physical form of women attractive. This isn't the first time any of us have heard it. The fact that he mentioned this after referencing his porn addiction solidifies that he meant this in a sexual way. In the context of this conversation, it really highlighted how much this is a problem - reducing a woman's value to her sexuality/appearance. (For an obvious example, take a look at Hollywood - actresses "age out" but Patrick Stewart is still a sex symbol)  Saying things like this also continues to emphasize gender roles.

I think anyone who is struggling with empathizing with this concept should consider what it means to court the maiden - to understand that the typical "default state" of the maiden is in her prostituted form - the exploited - and to the virginal maiden who desires a different approach, anything that smells of exploitation is repulsive. Sure, appreciate the female form all you want - but I can tell you there aren't many women who would be flattered to hear such a thing from someone who basically in the same breathe admits to feelings of misogyny.

[Diana]

But here in the US, how is restitution made for sexual innuendo, insults, sexism, misogyny? I can't see how holding ignorance to the flame is helpful. 

Any thoughts?

In this instance I think an apology could be seen as restitution.  

Yes, I can see that.

I just wouldn't think it's related to blame, however. It would be very hard to track blame with subconsciously ingrained behaviors and beliefs. Accountability and responsibility on the other hand, would be appropriate aspects of apology, besides compassion.  

[Diana]

Okay, let me attempt to clarify. I'm not against people finding other people attractive, or complimenting them, or even receiving compliments. The reason my own boundary was crossed was because we are talking about sexism, and someone tried to placate me by telling me how much they appreciate the "female form". Now, "appreciating the female form" is a colloquialism that has a specific meaning, usually referring to finding the physical form of women attractive. This isn't the first time any of us have heard it. The fact that he mentioned this after referencing his porn addiction solidifies that he meant this in a sexual way. In the context of this conversation, it really highlighted how much this is a problem - reducing a woman's value to her sexuality/appearance.

Jade, I honestly think you are surmising this out of an expectation, which no one could blame you for. But it is not a fact. It may be likely, but not necessarily true.  You simply can't know from words on a page what another person's intent was, especially when there may be emotional content built up.

(For an obvious example, take a look at Hollywood - actresses "age out" but Patrick Stewart is still a sex symbol)  Saying things like this also continues to emphasize gender roles.

I agree with this in a big way. Hollywood is poison regarding this issue. It's ONE of the reasons I say to unplug from the media. Even when one is unplugged and aligned with higher concepts than "you have to be 20 and perfect (whatever that is at the moment, eg. boy body with breast implants, nose job, chalk-white teeth, etc.)" it's still an insidious cultural pressure.

I think anyone who is struggling with empathizing with this concept should consider what it means to court the maiden - to understand that the typical "default state" of the maiden is in her prostituted form - the exploited - and to the virginal maiden who desires a different approach, anything that smells of exploitation is repulsive. Sure, appreciate the female form all you want - but I can tell you there aren't many women who would be flattered to hear such a thing from someone who basically in the same breathe admits to feelings of misogyny.

It's unfortunate that the comment came in the context of this conversation, which may have made it easily misunderstood. A couple of thoughts:

1. As an artist myself, I understand appreciation of the female form very much. The reason you don't see as many male nudes is not because painted nudes are seen as sexual in nature (for the most part; I couldn't be absolute on this); it's because the female form with its curves and shape is much more interesting and delightful to paint/draw (ask any artist). Perhaps some may think sexual thoughts when they see a painted nude, but you can't blame a person for the amount of testosterone in their system.

2. Because of all the misogyny and sexism still in place in human society, even innocent and sincere comments are suspect.  

However, this discussion is important, and the triggers are a vital element in exposing the underbelly of this conflict, based on human history, culminating now, at this time of great change. I would only suggest that we back off blame, and maybe reference comments without pointing the finger. Unfortunately, honesty with self is a huge challenge with humans, as far as I can tell. But bringing this subject out into the open here, in itself, has value.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

CA I donk you mean any harm and are likely a good guy but I do understand Jades issue with you commenting about the female form(body) being what you are so in love with. Perhaps it was a wrong terminology issue but the largest part of the problem is a large percentage of men see women's value only as their body.

It's incredibly dehumanizing. I've had guy friends I really cared about ditch after years solely because I wouldn't sleep with them. First I'm married, second it was clear from the start we were friends. How is that insulting that I won't let you between my legs? Why isn't my friendship worth having even without sex? Oh that's right because I'm great and personality is exactly what you want in a friend for years but since my body is appealing and you can't separate women and sex if you can't have that too your going to take your ball and go home.

Actually I've always had guy friends thankfully not all men see a women's only worth as her body.
However saying it as you did in this thread was a bit of proving what we already know. Men mostly see us as bodies.

One of my friends has had his eyes opened this year. He and his guy buddies like to take pictures of women's asses in public, it's immature but I love him so would roll my eyes. Funny how out for dinner some guy wouldn't stop taking pictures of me and he was SOOO pissed. Like wanted to go beat the crap out of him. He could dehumanize other women but couldn't handle it when someone did it to me.

Then I had issues at my gym with a guy taking my picture when I'm working out or just standing staring, watching. It's so creepy I've finally decided to change to a women's only gym even though it's less equipped. Same friend in that storey above wants photo guy arrested. Totally overkill but he sees how messed up it is to treat women like that when it's me. He knows what those guys are thinking because he does/did the same but he sure as heck doesn't want me being thought of like that.

These posts are all getting way to long so I'm not going to reply to everything. I seriously don't think you mean any harm.

Understand though through your ego you are NOT going to get why it  hurt seeing guys here  we thought considered us equals all making comments mocking women attempts to bring attention to  the way society dehumanizes us. Through your ego you will not understand the way women have experienced being treated as without value except for her bangabilty.

You seem aware enough you could ask to understand then meditate and see where the quiet takes you.

As myself as I said I love men. I hate when people say "man up" as if that means shut your emotions down, I hate when the world says "be a man and be a good provider". I married an art student, men are not wallets they are beautiful beings and society has closed so much of their heart off from themselves. We all have lost by suppression of the feminin because we all are both male and female.

The goal should be to develop both sides explore both sides to reach our fullest beauty but to do that as men you have to make the feminine seen as something that is valuable for much more than the body. I dare say the most beautiful part of feminine has zero to do with the body and if anything the "beautiful form" has camouflaged the true gift for recorded history.

See, I want you to know I consider you equal and then some, considering we're all infinity, and that I actually agree with all of those, the dehumanization, I've been one of those men once and I lost one of the greatest friends I've ever had.  And it taught me a lot about some of my issues, especially with women, all of which I was pretty much suppressing and in denial about.  Maybe I still am, I want to work through that, I just want to discuss these issues.

What did those blog links say?  Can you pm them to me?  I have no idea what was said in them and I'm curious as to their contents now.
I understand what it feels like to be seen only as a body.  For your mind to go unnoticed.  I can't say I've ever had anyone harass me by taking my picture.  That's kind of disturbing because it might mean there's a picture of you somewhere out there now as a faceless body.  And that proves your point more, about how dehumanizing it is.  It's kind of the same way I feel sometimes just because of how I am, and that seems to be the case most of my life with some short exceptions.  Being seen as unattractive for how my body and mind is, also is dehumanizing in the exact opposite way you're experiencing.  I think I can sympathize enough to find empathy in your situation.  You shouldn't have to feel so disrespected by others when you go out into society.  It's something we all need to work on because it effects all of us.

I also find this especially true, "Through your ego you will not understand the way women have experienced being treated as without value except for her bangabilty."  I think you might find men are exposed to those same situations in a lot of instances.  I do admit I do not see that in most people here though, as you all seem to be more empathetic and able to see beyond the skin, or words if you will.  Around me though, where I live and in my life, I've had literally a handful of encounters with others who found me attractive, I can only really remember one time someone called me attractive in my entire life.  It's weird because men's value on women also effect the men, if they treat you by your bangability, they treat themselves in the same way.  It might be sick or perverse, but it's an occurrence that can be seen to be growing, and one day men everywhere are going to realize if things are right or not, and maybe 'mankind' will learn a thing or two and evolve to treat 'womankind' as an equal and for society to mimic this, and not poison each other with hollywood standards or exceptionally high standards in a 'modern' world.

You understand me better than you might realize, as does Jade.  Yet I also admit to trying to better understand, in that light I'm being open and honest, in the hopes everyone else will be too.  So I appreciate the concerns with my views, I don't think I quite know what those are if they're attached to those blog links but in my mind it was as simple as man and woman are equal, whatever one can do to one, the other can do equally in kind.  If they are at odds, they both are weakened, if they're equal, they strive.

But for a lot of that to happen, we need to be presented with each others bias', and we need to be able to help those who want to find others equal, all others equal, by seeing passed those bias' and realizing they are learned opinions, and they can be exposed to consider other options.  Thank you Jade, for pointing out exactly what I said in a more concise light.  That sadly is who I still am, and I'm trying to be better educated it would seem.  Even if that means bearing the brunt of a lot of anger directed at me.

Wow, okay.  First, didn't read his blog, didn't felt I needed to to get what he was saying, but mostly I find it sad that he was censored in such a way without even being consulted to change his post first like what has once been done for me personally.  I've been in some similar situations as you Jade, you shouldn't believe your experiences are so indifferent for a man to empathize with.  I think your aggravation by my appreciation of the female qualities of existence is something you should consider exploring, I'm not talking about bodies.  I'm talking about qualities.  If you find my attraction to feminine qualities distasteful, then I can only say, may the shame you sell upon me be upon you instead.  I am proud of my appreciations of the female everything.  Without that love for something I believe myself to be more of than my own physical body can portray, I would be much more hateful and condescending, outright indignant towards women, that you call that very quality incendiary, I find just as incendiary.

I will not be ashamed for what I love, appreciate, and desire to know more of.

Joseph, you know I love you and don't think poorly or lowly of you. It's just shocking to see anyone say that what e_s said in his post wasn't hateful.

I also have not yet once in this thread (or, anywhere that I can think of) said anything about men being this or that. You are reading this into my words. If you find a specific instance, please show me.

Have I ever said I hate men? Have I ever implied it? Have I ever admitted to ever feeling misandry? Don't you see how resonating with misogyny on any level, even if it was in the past, might be unbalanced, might skew your opinions? Both you and earth_spirit have made the point that you hated women in the past. Are you sure you have completely evolved past this?

You made the comment about "women's form" with the explicit caveat that you also felt this way about men but "less sexually", immediately after you mentioned your porn addiction. You made it sexual. The reason this "triggers" me is because you seem so blind to how you are perpetuating what I perceive to be the issue, what Glow initially stated was the issue. Women are systemically reduced to being valued for only their appearance. Then, in the above paragraph you state that if you didn't appreciate the female "qualities" that you would be much more hateful towards women? I'm sorry, this sounds like you are still only seeing a shallow view of women.

You know how I treat an attractive wo/man and an unattractive wo/man? Exactly the same, because I don't judge people on their attractiveness. The thought literally never occurs to me. Unless someone has some jarring physical deformity, I really don't notice much about anything about how anyone looks. Do other (awake) people operate on a system where they are judging people by their physical appearance?

We can talk all we want about love and light and unity but, if you can't understand why I have grievances, then we still have a huge gap to cover before we can get there.

Here's a thought experiment. What if I (or someone else) said this:

"Black people are too lazy to contribute anything meaningful to society. Black people break the minds of their children and indoctrinate their sons to be subservient slaves and their daughters to be narcissistic airheads. Black people actually hate and oppress black people more than white people oppress black people, they hold themselves, and everyone else, down."

Is this hate speech? Yes/no.

I don't know, it sounds more ignorant to me than anything else, mostly because black people and women are different systems of energies in parts, feminine equality is a red ray issue for me, racial equality is an orange ray issue, to offer one in context of the other is a bit hard to answer a question of.  The feminine equality belongs to every racial label we have in society, and in a way it ties the yellow ray energies of family into the orange ray qualities of racial equality.  I do not believe e_s intended to come off in the manner you hear of him, I sort of wish he would come back and expand on what he was getting at because I think he greatly misrepresented his actual opinions if these are the reactions to them.

"We can talk all we want about love and light and unity but, if you can't understand why I have grievances, then we still have a huge gap to cover before we can get there. "

I do understand why you feel these ways, maybe not as deeply and vividly but I'm here to better understand, I'm trying to and so I'm asking for your help on this.  You've been helpful so far but I think I might help you help me more by actually asking.

"Do other (awake) people operate on a system where they are judging people by their physical appearance?"

I know I do mostly out of shyness, that doesn't mean I can't interact with an exceptionally attractive person but it does make me much more shut in about myself, I just try to be helpful and courteous then move about my day.  In that same sense, I'm always helpful and courteous to random people, especially those who might expect me to be so, such as elderly or disabled people, but that's just how I was raised to be.  Why do you judge this as an awake or not trait?  I still view each person in the same way, I just react differently to their outer appearance out of an attempt not to embarrass myself.

While I agree with what you're saying, try to see those same words pointed at e_s, imagine being called hateful and ignorant, just the same way you see him calling you all lazy and manipulative.  It's not exactly a flattering view of either side.  You can try to detach yourself from that inference but I think you should consider reacting to perceived hate speech with less hate.  Even if his views are as they are, he posted them here, and he was being open about himself, he was opening up to let you all make some commentary, to tell him that it's abusive if it sounds abusive.  Instead he was censored and accosted with similar labels others perceived of him making upon them.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking you to consider my words as I consider yours, sort of extensions of what we might also consider.  I do think calling all men, racial groups, or women lazy and manipulative is quite a broad statement, but if that's who he is or what he thinks, why should we censor him?  At the very least remove the links to the blog and discuss with him the quality of what he shared and why what was done was done, and if we can all be calm about this, we can come to some healing I would imagine.

Is that possible to do here?

"Have I ever said I hate men? Have I ever implied it? Have I ever admitted to ever feeling misandry? Don't you see how resonating with misogyny on any level, even if it was in the past, might be unbalanced, might skew your opinions? Both you and earth_spirit have made the point that you hated women in the past. Are you sure you have completely evolved past this?

You made the comment about "women's form" with the explicit caveat that you also felt this way about men but "less sexually", immediately after you mentioned your porn addiction. [i]You made it sexual. The reason this "triggers" me is because you seem so blind to how you are perpetuating what I perceive to be the issue, what Glow initially stated was the issue. Women are systemically reduced to being valued for only their appearance. Then, in the above paragraph you state that if you didn't appreciate the female "qualities" that you would be much more hateful towards women? I'm sorry, this sounds like you are still only seeing a shallow view of women."[/i]

If I were to ignore these feelings inside of me, and just suppress them rather than express them I would be doing myself no favors in learning how to be a better person.  I think the same can be said of e_s if you perceive him in those ways, and I think the same can be said of you and any female with exposure to our society that how you perceive someone like e_s directly shows if you have ties to energies of misandry, which are spread across our society subliminally.  Many men have suppressed desires of misogyny, if we go by the concept of male is female, it might make better sense why I don't see it as a far leap of logic for many women to have suppressed desires of misandry that might quietly influence how they react to men, just like how it effects how men react to women.

I especially have never understood why someone would become angry at an innocent remark that their sex is more admirable and physically pleasant.  I'm not perverting you intentionally with such feelings, it's just how I feel, that the feminine qualities are more attractive overall to me, whether it be sexually or emotionally or physically or energetically.  Why does that upset you so strongly that you think it objectifies you?  I find the creator attractive in the exact same sense, isn't that something to be praiseworthy for and to give thanks for?  How does this objectify you when I find them reasons to not objectify you???

You should perhaps view my affirmation of not finding the masculine sexual as a statement of denial for finding it sexual.  And not an attempt to detach sexual aspects from the previous statement, but thank you for reading into it that way as it helps me know how to be more sensitive to others when expressing such things.

The female qualities I refer to, are my own.  As I perceive them to be at least.  If you see this as shallow then know you also reference my understanding of my masculine qualities as shallow.  I don't really differentiate many traits with male and female energies because any I might think up I can easily see being present in the opposite sex.  I value things by their appearance, I do and I admit it, but I also value things by their depth and the various facets of how they are, I appreciate the spirit, and in people, I appreciate the mind a lot, mostly because I feel mine is pretty unappreciated, so I find it easy to be appreciative of such a thing as the mind, and how it allows everyone to be as a portion of infinity.  If I appreciate the way the female brain seems to operate more so than the male brain, I apologize for this being upsetting to you, but I must mention, I don't understand why this upsets you.  If I appreciate the qualities and quantities of the feminine divine manifest, I try to do the same in the masculine, but I find myself drawn more to the feminine with a grand appreciation for the masculine that echoes my grand appreciation for the feminine.

I do not understand why you view these things of me as upsetting.  I apologize for this and I guess just want you to know I'm thankful for your honesty with me.  I hope you won't think too much differently of me for these interactions.

As for 'evolving' beyond anything I find myself, with, of course I have not evolved beyond it.  I have no desire to, these traits are all things that belong to infinity and I have to explore them as they become one with me.  Whatever is not needed falls away, so whatever I have now, I need.  It's a basic toolbelt of the board game of life, the point doesn't seem to be to make everything unneeded, it's more to no longer feel the need to need them out of satisfaction for what has become.  So I'm sorry if you disagree with my patient manner of handling my many distortions.  A lot of people get frustrated with my slowness.

I couldn't figure out how to phrase it but since you started I too CA think it is a sign for you if you couldn't see what was offensive in es post.

I'm sure you are on a great path but your eyes are still sort of closed here.
Saying it just reflected his experiences so is valid to be stated shows a lack of understanding to why a woman's behaviour might be a way he perceives as manipulative or lazy.

It reduces people who have been marginalized already then are perpetuating further marjinalization by generalizing about an entire sexes character. How exactly is that not hate speach?

Edited because it made perfect sense at 3am but nope.

I think I saw his words through the eyes of a friend, who might not be able to as easily perceive whatever hateful energies you did, but I reiterate, I didn't read the blog, and I feel like his words were more regarding a societal viewpoint of the feminine from a man's point of view, to which he was pretty much censored and challenged, whereas he probably was hoping to explore those things and be shown new viewpoints in an environment akin to a classroom.  I feel like whatever hatred there is to be found in him, was expressed by him to be worked upon, perhaps just as much as he might intended to thrust his opinion upon us just as we have all done to him.

I'm trying to be neutral, to try and find some kind of way to bring about a connection and healing, to help one is to help all, you know?  Let's try and help each other better understand how we can respect one another, and let's help show people with offensive views why they are offensive in a calm manner, to try and show that there is a reason for these thoughts and feelings, and one way or another, we can prove it by working with them rather than against them.

A sort of paradox, to allow it by working with it, but only so to help guide it to work with you.

I hate the idea of the battle of the sexes, sure friendly competition keeps us all tip-top and respecting one another, but to take it to such extremes, it makes no sense to me.  Healing comes with forgiveness, the problem is forgiveness doesn't always mean another will learn their lessons, it does however show you learned yours.  If that means you can help another by example learn their lessons too as we all have similar lessons, then perhaps the true way to heal against misogyny is to not attack it, but to understand it so you can help it.  The same goes for men and misandry.

Why fight when you can make peace?

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with appreciating or being attracted to someones form.  I like looking at healthy people, because it acts as a motivator for me to value my own health more.  I mean there are obviously boundaries, like taking secretive pictures or staring without any thought for the other persons comfort, but looking at someone because you like their appearance, be it a man or woman, I don't think is sexist.  I think it can be quite innocent.  If that becomes the measure by which you determine a persons worth, then yes, I agree that is a serious issue, and I will also concede that women have it harder than men in that regard.  I think that the big difference in rates of anorexia between men and women attest to this, but I could be wrong about that.  We are a very body/appearance focused society, and this affects all of us, it has deeply affected me for half of my life and continues to.  I can't tell you how many times I've had the thought that 'if I looked better, life would be better'. 

The topic of this thread is one of my real weaknesses and I hope that we can continue to talk about this in a way which is mutually beneficial.     

Okay, let me attempt to clarify. I'm not against people finding other people attractive, or complimenting them, or even receiving compliments. The reason my own boundary was crossed was because we are talking about sexism, and someone tried to placate me by telling me how much they appreciate the "female form". Now, "appreciating the female form" is a colloquialism that has a specific meaning, usually referring to finding the physical form of women attractive. This isn't the first time any of us have heard it. The fact that he mentioned this after referencing his porn addiction solidifies that he meant this in a sexual way. In the context of this conversation, it really highlighted how much this is a problem - reducing a woman's value to her sexuality/appearance. (For an obvious example, take a look at Hollywood - actresses "age out" but Patrick Stewart is still a sex symbol)  Saying things like this also continues to emphasize gender roles.

I think anyone who is struggling with empathizing with this concept should consider what it means to court the maiden - to understand that the typical "default state" of the maiden is in her prostituted form - the exploited - and to the virginal maiden who desires a different approach, anything that smells of exploitation is repulsive. Sure, appreciate the female form all you want - but I can tell you there aren't many women who would be flattered to hear such a thing from someone who basically in the same breathe admits to feelings of misogyny.

"You should perhaps view my affirmation of not finding the masculine sexual as a statement of denial for finding it sexual.  And not an attempt to detach sexual aspects from the previous statement, but thank you for reading into it that way as it helps me know how to be more sensitive to others when expressing such things.

The female qualities I refer to, are my own.  As I perceive them to be at least.  If you see this as shallow then know you also reference my understanding of my masculine qualities as shallow.  I don't really differentiate many traits with male and female energies because any I might think up I can easily see being present in the opposite sex.  I value things by their appearance, I do and I admit it, but I also value things by their depth and the various facets of how they are, I appreciate the spirit, and in people, I appreciate the mind a lot, mostly because I feel mine is pretty unappreciated, so I find it easy to be appreciative of such a thing as the mind, and how it allows everyone to be as a portion of infinity.  If I appreciate the way the female brain seems to operate more so than the male brain, I apologize for this being upsetting to you, but I must mention, I don't understand why this upsets you.  If I appreciate the qualities and quantities of the feminine divine manifest, I try to do the same in the masculine, but I find myself drawn more to the feminine with a grand appreciation for the masculine that echoes my grand appreciation for the feminine.

I do not understand why you view these things of me as upsetting.  I apologize for this and I guess just want you to know I'm thankful for your honesty with me.  I hope you won't think too much differently of me for these interactions."

I also think it's interesting that you reference hollywood's manner of going about things, I think we can all agree, Hollywood has a messed up portrayal of the sexes that creates an almost fantasy ideal in reality.

I think it's nice of you to paint me in that ugly unflattering light I often feel I exist within, it's almost a bit humiliating if I weren't already admitting to such things.  I still don't understand why it'd be upsetting from a misogynist or a respectful man that stating the feminine form to be more pleasant and attractive than the masculine.  I understand that coming from a misogynist it might hold the context of appreciating the abuse of those forms and that can be very upsetting, just the same way I find various portrayals of accepted violence against men by women upsetting.  But I would never be upset that a woman found a man attractive.  I might be jealous of others I perceive to be more physically attractive than me but I don't think that ties into sexism as much as it does vanity, so I don't understand why this would upset you beyond viewing it as some kind of form of abuse of the feminine, and even then.  If it's only in mind and not being actively played out in the physical beyond it's expression of being, should it be quelled so heatedly?

I find it interesting how hateful people are towards hatred.  It's like fueling a flame with another flame.  Wouldn't you rather make sure that flame can become less destructive and more illuminating by using stillness and calmness to transform it from a fiery inferno to a steady flame?

Hatred is just the frenzy, don't get caught up in that frenzy, you can diffuse it if not directly, then indirectly by example.  We all have the potential for ill feelings towards the opposite sex, we don't need to admit to it for them to be there even in small shallow little ways.  We can be forgiving to hatred and make motions to help educate people who are colored with the hatred of bias.

We can all be better by helping one another.

[Glow]

CA - please don't think I feel slighted by you. If you've had bad experiences with women it makes sense to feel a generalized dis-ease but I think you are not at a woman hater stage though society would love to shove that way of thinking(hate of women) down into every psyche.

I think you might be being to hard on yourself but perhaps you are compensating for your old ways or men who still push hatred.

Can I state the obvious?

Men who have had bad female role models tend to recreate those relationships with equally difficult women. Often they have kids with them and it next becomes their children's problem. Mind you the traits of the father and his coping strategies that clearly didn't work with wifey will also be passed on. its a loop trying to remake the same dynamic and get a different result.

So these men tend to actually overlook good women who can offer them love and care and instead choose mates that will reinforce the bad past experiences.

Women do it too, which is why when I hear a man or women b**** about the opposite sex I unilaterally tell them perhaps the issue is they should hang around a different kind of man/women.

I had such extreme bad experiences with both sexes growing up I consously choose friends and romance that do not resemble old players/dynamics (With one very painful exception where the guy epitomized old bad dynamics with both sexes oops)because I know the sex of the person isn't the issue.

I also don't think you realize neither Jade or I hate E.S. I feel confident speaking for Jade there but his words can be found all over the web and seeing them "out there" is entirely different then reading them here where we feel sheltered in some way from the way the world tries to tear us down. If the so called enlightened men can still see us that way what friggen hope is there?

It's funny but no male here countering his argument has kind of ruined the place to a degree. Like why ask anything if men the majority here see us that way "less good, less than, manipulating, lazy" ... If we are so worthless why would they answer.

All it would have taken would be one man to say they don't agree and the situation would have been difused emensly. It would have felt we had an ally and weren't being vilified to a silent complacent audience that implies agreement.

Women having to stand up for women will always read as angry women, just like black people defending black people often is interpreted the same. Men have to stand beside women, to do it without tension just like white has to defend other races so it isn't seen as defensive angry...etc. We are one so why the heck not.

At some point what you say perhaps more how you say it has consiquences. Sometimes consequences are alienation of self and/or otherself.
If that post wasn't removed it would have meant this an unwelcoming place for women, a sign post saying you are lesser by our standards because no male countered his statements.

Same as any posts degrading races or people of other sexual orientations if not disagreed with would be a sign that we collectively agree. The difference is race or orientation would have solicited responses from more people disagreeing with it as we have actually seen that happen here.

I don't have blog links but read any "redpill" site and you will find the same b.s.

I think a lot of what you say is good. You have kindness and a "lust" to understand and grow.
That's really all it takes for progress.

Edited to agree with you the violence of women agains men that seems somehow ok in society is nothing short of messed up!! I always call people on that when people joke about it. It's perverse and not ok.

[Nicholas]

Jade, I especially believe that you are now just as much in hatred as you perceive e_s to be. My admiration of the female form is of its divinity. The body is a tool, I speak of admiring that which uses a tool so elegantly and eloquently and so powerfully in abstract and intuitive ways. I speak of an appreciation for the divine unconsciousness that is the feminine. Please understand... I'm being assigned traits others perceive of me. I just want us all to be treated with equality, and to not be inured or encumbered by the inequality perceived to be between us all...

You want to know what about this is frustrating? People would prefer to pretend things don't exist than to actually deal with problems. It's also a root illness in our society. Oh, I have a cold, better take some sudafed! Oh, a stomach ache? Drink that pepto bismol. We're all too happy to smooth over what may be perceived as "catalyst" by displacing it, numbing it, by taking a sip of the panacea of Oneness and moving on with our day.

Saying that we need to just focus on equality doesn't HEAL the problem. It forces an equilibrium that cannot be maintained without discussing thoroughly the underlying causes of the issue. To refuse to acknowledge these issues, to minimize them, invalidates people who have actually been hurt. We know as students of the Law of One that you can't just remove the tumor and hope the cancer goes away - you have to find the root cause (and it's probably not something so obvious as cigarettes). It takes hard, long work. You say you want to come to a common ground, but this takes many words exchanged and understanding towards those who you understand the least. I'm definitely working on the same goal that you are, whether you see it or not.

e_s posted a link to a blog that threw around "rape" in such a cavalier way - in fact, this is probably what I found most "hateful": his endorsement of the blog links, of which I only got through one. I've actually been raped. I've been objectified more times than I can count, repeatedly called a "dyke" while out at bars with short hair but not paying attention to men, disowned by my father for supporting my husband financially in his creative pursuits, been told by strangers that I'm "too pretty to have tattoos". Do you see why it is incendiary to post things like "Well I do love the female form" when our aestheticism has been the thing that has the most value? Should I have felt honor that I was raped because he was just so attracted to me that he couldn't help himself? This is the type of rhetoric people unconsciously perpetuate when they try to force others to ignore societal imbalances. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm being labeled as hateful because I refused to validate a comment about my physical appearance.

Here is a quote from Martin Luther King Jr that pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject. It's about racism, but I wasn't the first to draw the equivalency:

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

What does Ra say about "justice" and healing our planet?

26.30 Questioner: And then, can you describe the mechanism of the planetary healing?

Ra: I am Ra. Healing is a process of acceptance, forgiveness, and, if possible, restitution. The restitution not being available in time/space, there are many among your peoples now attempting restitution while in the physical.

C_A, if you still sincerely feel that I'm being more hateful than e_s, or making less of an attempt to be open and honest with my feelings, that you really should take a hard look at the biases you are carrying. Either way, I'm regretting that the post got deleted, because I'm afraid this is just the beginning of the gaslighting that is about to occur.

What does Ra say about "justice" and healing our planet?

26.30 Questioner: And then, can you describe the mechanism of the planetary healing?

Ra: I am Ra. Healing is a process of acceptance, forgiveness, and, if possible, restitution. The restitution not being available in time/space, there are many among your peoples now attempting restitution while in the physical.

It seems to me Ra is pointing out that it is not possible to get restitution beyond the physical, presumably because one likely wouldn't care at that point and perhaps there is no purpose beyond the physical. Restitution, to me, derives from a desire to be "paid back," or in a negative version, revenge.

Healing, for some people, may require restitution. But if you accept, and forgive, or rather, detach and let go, why would restitution be needed? In the context of this discussion regarding the oppression of women, how would it apply? I can see how in 3rd-world countries there might be programs to help women start businesses and the like. But here in the US, how is restitution made for sexual innuendo, insults, sexism, misogyny? I can't see how holding ignorance to the flame is helpful. 

Any thoughts?

I believe this points to balancing out past experiences. 

9.2 Questioner: Is it possible for you to tell us of anything in our past incarnations, our past experiences before this incarnation?

Ra: I am Ra. It is possible. However, such information as this is carefully guarded by your mind/body/spirit being totality so that your present space/time experiences will be undiluted.

Let us scan for harmless material for your beingness. [20-second pause.] I am, in the distortion of desire for your freedom from preconception, able to speak only generally. There have been several times when this group worked and dwelt together. The relationships varied. There is balanced karma, as you call it; each thus the teacher of each. The work has involved healing, understanding the uses of the earth energy, and work in aid of civilizations which called just as your sphere has done and we have come. This ends the material which we consider harmless.

The planetary healing of "restitution" sounds like collective karma.
So my supposition is that "restitution" is using space/time to balance out past life "missteps". I also think that the Ra contact itself is predicated upon a restorative intention.

34.5 Questioner: If an entity develops what is called a karma in an incarnation, is there then programming that sometimes occurs so that he will experience catalyst that will enable him to get to a point of forgiveness thereby alleviating the karma?

Ra: I am Ra. This is, in general, correct. However, both self and any involved other-self may, at any time through the process of understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, ameliorate these patterns. This is true at any point in an incarnative pattern. Thus one who has set in motion an action may forgive itself and never again make that error. This also brakes or stops what you call karma.

So the "oppression" of women is not really oppression in our western culture, if you compare it with middle eastern models. What is occurring in the west is that some males have not progressed past his "seek sex" instincts.

Males are programmed that way for a reason as it ensures the survival of the species, and also explains why they are more competitive. They are hard wired, biochemically, to pursue the object of their desire, and the West has an economic structure that acknowledges  this. This is why Capitalism has succeeded more than any other system, because it recognises natural programming. The best economic structures (ie the most productive) on our planet are those that have gender equality values. When a women is free to choose the whole economy prospers. A man is then free to choose more physical work without feeling guilty of being born with able biceps, and a woman is more free to choose without being objectified by her able breasts.

Intellectual feminism (ideological) seems more concerned with protecting people from catalyst (which is antithetical to freedom). The manifestation of political correctness is a clear example of trying to create laws that protect us from uncomfortable expressions and ideas. The West has an underdeveloped male population and 3rd wave feminism is partly responsible for it. One of the shortcomings in this feminist theory is that males should feel somewhat guilty for being male. For succumbing to their instinctual urges and making instinctual propositions. They are definitely immature but that does not make them oppressors! 

"the great cat" is depicted as a male in the animal world because a masculine trait is to "seek" new territory. Feminist ideology interprets this as patriarchal or predatory. An immature male seeks sex, but a mature male seeks ideas. That's why the history of philosophy is dominated by males.

So those are my thoughts, that "Feminism" has turned into an assault on masculinity, as an antidote to the immature aspects of masculinity. 

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Having now read the blog, I can say I disagree with it, and disagree with those views.

With that out of the way, I do think its important to note our reponse.  There was one other person who liked e_s's post though so not sure if that matters.  B4 will always be welcome to women, even if a member here or there has strong views and opinions.  His sharing them opens us all up the catalyst of this, so I want to be helpful and use that catalyst to better understand the many different facets, points, and views available from this subject,  from sociological to cultural to psychological areas of influence.

If we can't somehow reconcile cultural differences of views then how are we going to achieve equality?  What happens if men in Saudi Arabi won't budge on the female 'place in society' , you can't scream at them until they change.  What must be done to help a closedminded or biased person no longer view women as lesser or superior but equal?

Thank you for your kind thoughts, I have felt since I was young more attuned to the feminine, most of my friends have always been girls, guys don't make sense to me often.  I try to understand, I'm sorry for any of my ignorant failings.

[smc]

There's the potential within this thread, of Jade and Glow becoming drained from feeling required to continually reply post by post to male persons who (imo) would do better to go online and undertake their own research, rather than expecting to be answered item by item, issue by issue.

This research needs to be extensive. There is much to be read and learnt.

I think this is especially a valid thing to say when within these persons own thinking there isn't even a basic understanding of patriarchy and it's effect over millennia

- let alone that said patriarchy is the main factor controlling the very ignorance that is shaping these dialogues.


It's not up to women to educate men about sexism and misogyny;

just as it isn't up to an African-American to educate a Caucasian, as to why they experience (most usually - ie: statistically) totally different lives due to their skin colour.

It felt very uncomfortable for me when Aboriginal Australians 'schooled' me about my privilege as a middle class white Australian, and it took me quite a while to realise I didn't need to feel personally attacked -but just recognise the issue and then offer to become an ally.

Same for men , particularly white men. Just listen, learn, "suck it up".. realise you're also abused by patriarchy, (in different ways) and become an ally.

Feminism is about EQUALITY. Don't quibble about the smaller factions within it - don't be diverted by extremism in any form. it's in all 'movements'.

Just focus on LOVE, respect and EQUALITY.

And LISTEN.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

I'm sorry you disagree with my attempts of understanding and find my interactions bothersome. Thank you for your honesty with me.

[smc]

I'm sorry you disagree with my attempts of understanding and find my interactions bothersome.  Thank you for your honesty with me.

This is emotionally manipulative. Your attempts to understand are commendable, but you've already had feedback that the posting is becoming longer and longer and you could look at your expectations that others are being asked to 'spoon-feed' your learning on feminism.

"bothersome" is so far from what I'm saying.

it's tiring for women to have to speak point by point on their objectification and discrimination

also - my words were not specifically for any one male person on his thread

[smc]

This is is really useful:

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com...q-roundup/