Are you going to take the vaccine?

[Diana]

COVID could spell the end of animal testing as drug makers turn to human organs on microchips

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thestar....sting.html

“ The virulence and highly contagious nature of COVID-19 is demanding a new model of research that bypasses animals, instead using human-biology-based testing. A growing number of scientists suggest that accelerated COVID-19 research is exposing animal modelling for what many have long claimed it to be: a scientific anachronism.”

This is good to hear. I do hope the idea follows through to ending animal testing. The thing is, the technology has been there for a long time to test in other ways. But maybe this will be a great change to come out of COVID.

[Glow]

Honestly it’s not even something i was aware they were still doing, our biology is so different it just seems illogical, so it’s a good point.
Humanity for the most part only changes as they have to unfortunatley.

[zedro]

I would like to add one point to this conversation that will likely be unpopular. Vaccines, including COVID vaccine (as far as I have read) are tested on animals.

The mRNA vaccines testing (prior to Covid vaccines) were tested on animals, and frequently there was a 100% death rate on reinfection. This is because mRNA vaccines create a strong inflammatory immune response (type 1 microphage) but the natural anti-inflammatory response (type 2 microphages) is suppressed due to the nature of the process, this results in a hyper inflammatory immune response that kills or damages the patient, even from a non-target virus (basically it destroys natural immune function and makes you more susceptible to pathogens). This actually has historically happened with some standard vaccines that were not tested to specific ethnic and age groups, which had disastrous results to those specific groups.

Animal testing was somehow bypassed from normal safety testing protocols for the Phizer mRNA vaccine. At least there was no animal testing data submitted (there's always a chance some testing was internally done and the results suppressed, but given the history of animal testing results they most likely decided to skip that step). Of course you can justify not doing such testing, this is why science is not absolute, but merely a practice where the acceptability of conclusions is from consensus of institutional groups.

All the above can be researched, although some may choose to call it conspiracy theories, it is actually part of the historical record, you just need to find the direct sources. Unfortunately the pharma industry has a wide financial reach, and can afford to influence 3rd party reporting sources.

Edit: I'm not inferring that the vaccines will behave as described in the 1st paragraph, but it is a tangible possibility which is why risk should be assessed on an individual basis, i.e. discernement.

[Louisabell]

Since there are many interesting links you guys posted, here is another one.
A very interesting „talk“ about the subject I came across:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0ZnNPPH6N4

After reviewing the video that was posted above, it would seem that the biggest concern people have with the COVID vaccine causing "permanent damage" is because it is an RNA vaccine. I am actually quite excited about this new generation of RNA vaccine because there is no need to add adjuvants (chemicals which agitate the immune system like mercury or aluminum) or preservatives, which have been the main causes of concern in previous vaccines. This vaccine is therefore potentially much safer. 

If one would like to get informed, below is a great interview discussing this type of vaccine with Professor Shane Crotty, PhD (La Jolla Institute for Immunology, Center for Infectious Disease and Vaccine Research, Crotty Lab and the University of California San Diago). Many good questions were asked.



I will take the vaccine as I want to be part of the solution to eradicate this disease, and it will likely be a requirement to travel to the USA, which I would like to do in the near future as my sister and nephew live in NYC. If I turn into a crazed zombie, I'll let you all know! (right before I try to eat your brains of course) I kid!

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and this is a discussion board, so that's why we are here. The whole COVID situation is very divisive. Many people seem to think "the other side" of the vaccination issue is deluded. This reminds me of politics here in the US, where Republicans think Democrats are idiots/wrong and vice versa. One might say I am being cavalier in that analogy, but recall that governments send hundreds of thousands of people to war to maim and kill other people (not to mention the wildlife and environment in the wake of it).

I personally don't like the inference in this thread that in order to be STO one must take the vaccine. This kind of thinking reminds me of the Christian Jesus, who died for others' sins. If I were to believe that, I would argue that Jesus had no right to do that, to take away catalyst from others and even more, take away their responsibility and accountability.

Service to others is not so simple as everything you do is for others. This leads to martyrdom, and as Ra pointed out, this is not a state that is in balance. It seems to me that extremity either way on this issue might be examined in the light of balance and free will. I will repost Ra's words on a contagion:

34.7 ▶ Questioner: Do what we call contagious diseases play any part in this process with respect to the unmanifested self?

Ra: I am Ra. These so-called contagious diseases are those entities of second density which offer an opportunity for this type of catalyst. If this catalyst is unneeded, then these second-density creatures, as you would call them, do not have an effect. In each of these generalizations you may please note that there are anomalies so that we cannot speak to every circumstance but only to the general run or way of things as you experience them.

Well, we can't help that inferences get made. I do believe that getting the COVID vaccine in order to reduce potentially spreading the disease to more vulnerable people is a STO act. Choosing not to take the vaccine doesn't mean you're not a STO person in general, but in that specific choice, I don't see how it's STO. Not everything is a slippery slope to martyrdom. It's only an act of martyrdom if you truly believe that the vaccine has a significant chance to kill or maim you. I acknowledge that some people do believe that, so for them, it would be an act of martyrdom. But usually, it is the very people who would recover from COVID easily (the young with strong immune systems) that are also the best candidates to take the vaccine.

In my interpretation of the text, the standard of "not needing catalyst" is very high. There is catalyst that works on the societal self, and even wanderers come to Earth to help ameliorate societal karma (that they may of had no personal hand in creating). Catalyst is no longer needed when it offers no more teach/learning. I see this COVID situation as offering much learn/teaching for humanity on the global and individual scale... I mean it's allowing us to have this discussion, isn't it?

54.18 Questioner: Which entities incarnate at this time on this planet would be of that category, manufacturing all of their catalyst?

Ra: I am Ra. We find your query indeterminate but can respond that the number of those which have mastered outer catalyst completely is quite small.

Most of those harvestable at this space/time nexus have partial control over the outer illusion and are using the outer catalyst to work upon some bias which is not yet in balance.

[Glow]

I would like to add one point to this conversation that will likely be unpopular. Vaccines, including COVID vaccine (as far as I have read) are tested on animals.

The mRNA vaccines testing (prior to Covid vaccines) were tested on animals, and frequently there was a 100% death rate on reinfection. This is because mRNA vaccines create a strong inflammatory immune response (type 1 microphage) but the natural anti-inflammatory response (type 2 microphages) is suppressed due to the nature of the process, this results in a hyper inflammatory immune response that kills or damages the patient, even from a non-target virus (basically it destroys natural immune function and makes you more susceptible to pathogens). This actually has historically happened with some standard vaccines that were not tested to specific ethnic and age groups, which had disastrous results to those specific groups.

Animal testing was somehow bypassed from normal safety testing protocols for the Phizer mRNA vaccine. At least there was no animal testing data submitted (there's always a chance some testing was internally done and the results suppressed, but given the history of animal testing results they most likely decided to skip that step). Of course you can justify not doing such testing, this is why science is not absolute, but merely a practice where the acceptability of conclusions is from consensus of institutional groups.

All the above can be researched, although some may choose to call it conspiracy theories, it is actually part of the historical record, you just need to find the direct sources. Unfortunately the pharma industry has a wide financial reach, and can afford to influence 3rd party reporting sources.

Just so you know they did not bipass testing for Pfizer’s vaccine, they are running the studies concurrently.

https://www.fiercebiotech.com/research/p...-candidate

I would love a link to your first statement because it sound bizzaro world unscientific. I doesn’t even make sense.

Part of the process of a virus infecting cells is the creation of mRNA so previous vaccines would have just added a step in the immune response, and would require use of the actual virus which then within the body makes mRNA.

Use of mRNA skips the introduction of the actual virus so the first assertation makes zero sense.

A link that explains the process of transcription within the body from DNA to mRNA
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpag...y-6524808/

[Diana]

Not everything is a slippery slope to martyrdom. It's only an act of martyrdom if you truly believe that the vaccine has a significant chance to kill or maim you.

Not sure I agree with that. I think martyrdom is doing something for other(s) with no consideration for self in the equation. This is separation, as the self is an other, or there is self and others (separation). My opinion only, of course.

I agree that not everything is a slippery slope to martyrdom. I didn't mean to imply it is.

I see this COVID situation as offering much learn/teaching for humanity on the global and individual scale... I mean it's allowing us to have this discussion, isn't it?

I agree. Already there are many people working from home and learning that discipline and focus. The separation of friends and family is bringing up feelings to process. If it's true that this vaccine development will help to stop animal testing that is a huge step in compassion. I see many good things coming out of this among the many challenges.

[Glow]

To add onto the comments of viruses only being used where the catylist is still needed.
Well to me if I have distortions within me such as anger, violence or hate ect.

One could say otherselves will only be effected by those distortions if the catylist is needed. When it’s not needed the response would be love as Ra said.

At the same time it is kinder to heal oneself instead of lashing out and spreading the distortions of pain to others, where like a virus if not quarantined and healed within it will spread to everyone exposed to it.

I’m failing at pulling quotes tonight but Ra spoke of selves having more catylist than could be used.
More catylist in a short time isn’t better, hence the shortened life span from 700 years to what we have now.

My preference is to stop and heal things within myself.
That includes illnesses.

Still we consult our own higher guidance, I just do not feel it’s personally speaking a free pass that it’s catylist that people can use, nor am I dissuaded by non scientific theory, or fears about some threat to my divine connection.

[Minyatur]

I do believe that getting the COVID vaccine in order to reduce potentially spreading the disease to more vulnerable people is a STO act. Choosing not to take the vaccine doesn't mean you're not a STO person in general, but in that specific choice, I don't see how it's STO.

I don't really think it is that simple. How the material seems to define the key toward negative polarization is control of catalyst, while the key toward positive polarization is acceptance of catalyst.

Where I stand in my beliefs, to not take the vaccine is a way to empower faith and personal growth in both myself and others. For years now I have seen synchronicities and non-randomness within the catalysts that I face, easily seeing purpose and opportunity in how and when they come to manifest. Then, to want to take the vaccine would be walking backwards in these realizations and it is definitely not what I want to inspire to others. That we need to fear catalyst and control it. Now I am not saying that everyone has to make this choice for the same reasons that I do, everyone's biases and limits of perception will determine how they have distilled the polarity behind their choice. That's why I said it is important to follow one's own intuition in accomplishing one's role, rather than to let oneself be manipulated by the chaos of other people's thoughts and emotions.

In the end, my own choice is based upon the energies that I have decided to entertain within myself. If I speak to someone who says they intend to take the vaccine, then I will also respect their own choice and their anxieties without trying to undermine them. Respecting them does not mean to allow myself to be controlled by their fears, guilts and anxieties either, merely to recognize and accept what they feel and live within as valid and well.

To believe that there is a clear answer that is valid for all to make polarity-wise simply fails to recognize the inherent nature of our reality as both complex and relative. It boils down to what we do desire to empower within our reality. To this question there are many different answers, that can all be equally positive. We are all other-selves because we are all different focuses, this means that every self has the potential for a totally unique perception of what it means to be STO and that the right choices for you are not necessarily what is right for another. We are Unity, but more fundamentally this Unity is Infinity.

[Spaced]

Not everything is a slippery slope to martyrdom. It's only an act of martyrdom if you truly believe that the vaccine has a significant chance to kill or maim you.

Not sure I agree with that. I think martyrdom is doing something for other(s) with no consideration for self in the equation. This is separation, as the self is an other, or there is self and others (separation). My opinion only, of course.

Is getting vaccinated a case of acting without any self-interest though? You'd be getting the vaccine so you yourself would not get sick (or at least would not suffer the worst of the effects). It's not like taking a bullet for someone

[Louisabell]

I do believe that getting the COVID vaccine in order to reduce potentially spreading the disease to more vulnerable people is a STO act. Choosing not to take the vaccine doesn't mean you're not a STO person in general, but in that specific choice, I don't see how it's STO.

I don't really think it is that simple. How the material seems to define the key toward negative polarization is control of catalyst, while the key toward positive polarization is acceptance of catalyst.

Well, I don't see that acceptance of catalyst is so easily deduced as just letting a pandemic run its course without taking any precautions for yourself or others because that's accepting. That strikes to me of a very surface level kind of acceptance. In order to accept catalyst, one must know what they are accepting, otherwise we run into the territory of simply trying to "overcome" or "ignore" catalyst, which can cause other imbalances. So where is the acceptance that many people have died from this pandemic? Where is the acceptance that one could more readily spread the disease to a vulnerable person if not taking precautions? If one is willing to believe/say that the service they're doing in not taking precautions is more worthwhile than potentially saving a life from COVID by taking precautions, then one would have to make the case, not hold firm to a simplistic view of acceptance, in my view.

82.3 Questioner: Jim has a personal question which is not to be published. You— He asks, “It seems that my balancing work has shifted from more peripheral concerns such as patience/impatience, to learning to open myself in unconditional love, to accepting my self as whole and perfect, and then to accepting my self as the Creator. If this is a normal progression of focus for balancing, wouldn’t it be more efficient once this is discovered for a person to work on the acceptance of self as Creator rather than work peripherally on the secondary and tertiary results of not accepting the self?”

Ra: I am Ra. The term efficiency has misleading connotations. In the context of doing work in the disciplines of the personality, in order to be of more full efficiency in the central acceptance of the self, it is first quite necessary to know the distortions of the self which the entity is accepting. Each thought and action needs must then be scrutinized for the precise foundation of the distortions of any reactions. This process shall lead to the more central task of acceptance. However, the architrave must be in place before the structure is builded.

Where I stand in my beliefs, to not take the vaccine is a way to empower faith and personal growth in both myself and others. For years now I have seen synchronicities and non-randomness within the catalysts that I face, easily seeing purpose and opportunity in how and when they come to manifest. Then, to want to take the vaccine would be walking backwards in these realizations and it is definitely not what I want to inspire to others. That we need to fear catalyst and control it.

Yes, I believe in the power of faith and the Creator's ability to realize what we are faithful in. Our Logos has created a vivid and very realistic experience, where we are encouraged to turn to the use of our vocal chords for communication and our opposable thumbs to express inspirational energies. I love this world, its challenges and its victories, and the beings here who are very convinced of its materialism. In my assessment (based on the research I have done which I feel is my STO duty to perform), this vaccine is safe and effective. For me to forgo such a solution would be not following my faith and empowerment. It would be me exerting a bias to live in a world different to the one I am in now; I would be operating from a bias that healing should occur miraculously, on my own terms and in my own timeframe, instead of the realized solution that the Creator has presented right in front of me. Afterall, I just don't see there being any "lesser" or "higher" realities as everything can be seen to have a sacramental nature. As the saying goes "we are not material beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a material experience".

49.6 I am Ra ... Each experience will be sequentially understood by the growing and seeking mind/body/spirit complex in terms of survival, then in terms of personal identity, then in terms of social relations, then in terms of universal love, then in terms of how the experience may beget free communication, then in terms of how the experience may be linked to universal energies, and finally in terms of the sacramental nature of each experience.

Now I am not saying that everyone has to make this choice for the same reasons that I do, everyone's biases and limits of perception will determine how they have distilled the polarity behind their choice. That's why I said it is important to follow one's own intuition in accomplishing one's role, rather than to let oneself be manipulated by the chaos of other people's thoughts and emotions.

What of the chaos of our own thoughts and emotions Minyatur? You can't read fear, anxiety or attempts to guilt or undermine into my statements, unless you are projecting those onto me. You can't assume that people are being "manipulated by the chaos of other people's thoughts and emotions" in coming to their opinions, if you're not projecting that onto their experience. So why read fear in the words of those willing to take a vaccine to prevent catching COVID, yet no fear into those who reject and are suspicious of the vaccine or 'big pharma' in general? I am genuinely interested in how you have come to make that assessment?

I have personally decided to make my choices based on scientific information. Infact, I can be skeptical of medical professionals as I realise they often don't have the time or energy to be up to date on the latest scientific research. When I have medical concerns, I will often do my own scientific research (from scientific journals, not media articles). I therefore feel well informed and have little emotionality to it in general.

And may I ask to those who will choose nature over medical intervention, if you caught nits, would you use nit shampoo?  

[Spaced]

I don't really think it is that simple. How the material seems to define the key toward negative polarization is control of catalyst, while the key toward positive polarization is acceptance of catalyst.

When Ra said "To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body" is this not what you describe as controlling catalyst? Is your opinion that we should just accept that others are starving and that that is their catalyst to deal with?

[Minyatur]

I don't really think it is that simple. How the material seems to define the key toward negative polarization is control of catalyst, while the key toward positive polarization is acceptance of catalyst.

When Ra said "To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body" is this not what you describe as controlling catalyst? Is your opinion that we should just accept that others are starving and that that is their catalyst to deal with?

Feeding the mind/body/spirit complex when it starves is acceptance of the catalyst of hunger. If out of fear of hunger you start stuffing yourself needlessly and hoard food (like we've seen people do emptying grocery stores at the beginning of the pandemic) when you may not even face hunger at all, then that is more along the lines of attempting to control catalyst.

Part of the argument is failing to see the need of my mind/body/spirit, or most people's mind/body/spirit complexes, to be fed a vaccine they do not need. So your quote does not really make any sense within this context, and this does not deny that it can make sense for the smaller percentage of the population that is more at risk to take precautions either if they do not believe in their ability to deal with this virus, nor that I can take precautions with such people.

To think that absolutely everyone has to take or not to take the vaccine is purely narrow minded.

[Minyatur]

I do believe that getting the COVID vaccine in order to reduce potentially spreading the disease to more vulnerable people is a STO act. Choosing not to take the vaccine doesn't mean you're not a STO person in general, but in that specific choice, I don't see how it's STO.

I don't really think it is that simple. How the material seems to define the key toward negative polarization is control of catalyst, while the key toward positive polarization is acceptance of catalyst.

Well, I don't see that acceptance of catalyst is so easily deduced as just letting a pandemic run its course without taking any precautions for yourself or others because that's accepting. That strikes to me of a very surface level kind of acceptance. In order to accept catalyst, one must know what they are accepting, otherwise we run into the territory of simply trying to "overcome" or "ignore" catalyst, which can cause other imbalances. So where is the acceptance that many people have died from this pandemic? Where is the acceptance that one could more readily spread the disease to a vulnerable person if not taking precautions? If one is willing to believe/say that the service they're doing in not taking precautions is more worthwhile than potentially saving a life from COVID by taking precautions, then one would have to make the case, not hold firm to a simplistic view of acceptance, in my view.

82.3 Questioner: Jim has a personal question which is not to be published. You— He asks, “It seems that my balancing work has shifted from more peripheral concerns such as patience/impatience, to learning to open myself in unconditional love, to accepting my self as whole and perfect, and then to accepting my self as the Creator. If this is a normal progression of focus for balancing, wouldn’t it be more efficient once this is discovered for a person to work on the acceptance of self as Creator rather than work peripherally on the secondary and tertiary results of not accepting the self?”

Ra: I am Ra. The term efficiency has misleading connotations. In the context of doing work in the disciplines of the personality, in order to be of more full efficiency in the central acceptance of the self, it is first quite necessary to know the distortions of the self which the entity is accepting. Each thought and action needs must then be scrutinized for the precise foundation of the distortions of any reactions. This process shall lead to the more central task of acceptance. However, the architrave must be in place before the structure is builded.

Part of acceptance is admitting that you do not know what is best. Humans have a deep fear of death and desire to control death while that may not always be what is most useful. This quote comes to mind:

14.14 Questioner: Would there be any value to the people of this planet now, at this time, to complete this machine?

Ra: I am Ra. The harvest is now. There is not at this time any reason to include efforts along these distortions towards longevity, but rather to encourage distortions toward seeking the heart of self, for this which resides clearly in the violet-ray energy field will determine the harvesting of each mind/body/spirit complex.

This does not mean that we need to be uncaring in regard to death, but instead that we must also realize that death is a natural part of our experience that everyone will experience in their own time. I think it was Patrick that posited at the beginning of the pandemic that this may very well partly an answer to the call of many to depart from incarnation. Like Ra says in the quote that Diana posted, it might really be those in need of the catalyst that experience it as they do.

Where I stand in my beliefs, to not take the vaccine is a way to empower faith and personal growth in both myself and others. For years now I have seen synchronicities and non-randomness within the catalysts that I face, easily seeing purpose and opportunity in how and when they come to manifest. Then, to want to take the vaccine would be walking backwards in these realizations and it is definitely not what I want to inspire to others. That we need to fear catalyst and control it.

Yes, I believe in the power of faith and the Creator's ability to realize what we are faithful in. Our Logos has created a vivid and very realistic experience, where we are encouraged to turn to the use of our vocal chords for communication and our opposable thumbs to express inspirational energies. I love this world, its challenges and its victories, and the beings here who are very convinced of its materialism. In my assessment (based on the research I have done which I feel is my STO duty to perform), this vaccine is safe and effective. For me to forgo such a solution would be not following my faith and empowerment. It would be me exerting a bias to live in a world different to the one I am in now; I would be operating from a bias that healing should occur miraculously, on my own terms and in my own timeframe, instead of the realized solution that the Creator has presented right in front of me. Afterall, I just don't see there being any "lesser" or "higher" realities as everything can be seen to have a sacramental nature. As the saying goes "we are not material beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a material experience".

49.6 I am Ra ... Each experience will be sequentially understood by the growing and seeking mind/body/spirit complex in terms of survival, then in terms of personal identity, then in terms of social relations, then in terms of universal love, then in terms of how the experience may beget free communication, then in terms of how the experience may be linked to universal energies, and finally in terms of the sacramental nature of each experience.

Well I do believe our reality is much more than merely material and it has been for quite a long time. Also it keeps going back to miraculous healing, but healing from a virus is a basic function of the human body and not some miracle.

So to go back to the above quote, perhaps the time of harvest is not the time to focus and the material world and merely longevity, and instead to encourage the seeking of faith and of the heart of the self.

Now I am not saying that everyone has to make this choice for the same reasons that I do, everyone's biases and limits of perception will determine how they have distilled the polarity behind their choice. That's why I said it is important to follow one's own intuition in accomplishing one's role, rather than to let oneself be manipulated by the chaos of other people's thoughts and emotions.

What of the chaos of our own thoughts and emotions Minyatur? You can't read fear, anxiety or attempts to guilt or undermine into my statements, unless you are projecting those onto me. You can't assume that people are being "manipulated by the chaos of other people's thoughts and emotions" in coming to their opinions, if you're not projecting that onto their experience. So why read fear in the words of those willing to take a vaccine to prevent catching COVID, yet no fear into those who reject and are suspicious of the vaccine or 'big pharma' in general? I am genuinely interested in how you have come to make that assessment?

I have personally decided to make my choices based on scientific information. Infact, I can be skeptical of medical professionals as I realise they often don't have the time or energy to be up to date on the latest scientific research. When I have medical concerns, I will often do my own scientific research (from scientific journals, not media articles). I therefore feel well informed and have little emotionality to it in general.

And may I ask to those who will choose nature over medical intervention, if you caught nits, would you use nit shampoo?  

Fear is what makes one see things in absolutes. So either group of people that believes everyone should or should not take the vaccine as an absolute is probably driven by fear. Like I said, reality is much more complex and relative than a single answer to fit all. I do believe some should take the vaccine, just that not everyone should either.

I do not have anything against medical interventions, just that I believe some may be needed and others unneeded, some may be useful and others less useful, some are for certain people and not for others, etc.

Like I said, I would not discourage someone that wants to take the vaccine, because I see no purpose in that. But, if I tried to convince others they absolutely need to take it and that this is the only positive choice that is available to them, I would definitely feel like I am using fear and guilt to manipulate them.

To be fair is someone asks me if they should or should not take the vaccine, I could say what I do plan myself and then add that they should do what feels right to them.


Edit: Thought of this quote to further illustrate my points:

17.30 Questioner: Well, if an entity wants to learn ways of it, wants to be of service to others rather than service to self while he is in this third density, are there best ways of being of service to others, or is any way just as good as any other way?

Ra: I am Ra. The best way to be of service to others has been explicitly covered in previous material. We will iterate briefly.

The best way of service to others is the constant attempt to seek to share the love of the Creator as it is known to the inner self. This involves self knowledge and the ability to open the self to the other-self without hesitation. This involves, shall we say, radiating that which is the essence or the heart of the mind/body/spirit complex.

Speaking to the intention of your question, the best way for each seeker in third density to be of service to others is unique to that mind/body/spirit complex. This means that the mind/body/spirit complex must then seek within itself the intelligence of its own discernment as to the way it may best serve other-selves. This will be different for each. There is no best. There is no generalization. Nothing is known.

[Patrick]

I've been looking at unity100's comment about many places where vaccination is mandatory.  I am actually surprised.  I understand the rational behind it of course, but still I do not support mandatory treatments, even if it indirectly affects others.  The only kind of abrogation of freewill I support are laws like those trying to prevent anyone from murdering others.  I understand that a line must be drawn somewhere in what is considered a direct enough assault on another's freedom, but vaccination or any other health related issues are not behind that line in my opinion.  Where this gets really fuzzy is in cases where we remove children from their mother's care in order to treat them, in cases where parents would prefer to let their child die (or heal naturally with a bit of luck).

[Diana]

When Ra said "To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body" is this not what you describe as controlling catalyst? Is your opinion that we should just accept that others are starving and that that is their catalyst to deal with?

The way I interpret that Ra quote is that if you come across someone who is starving, offer them food. You don't force feed them. If they accept the food feed them. If they don't, let it go. In either case, don't be attached to the outcome; in other words, let them have their catalyst. But it is catalyst for you too to come across this starving entity, so to do nothing is to not utilize the catalyst. The key is not being attached to outcome, while having empathy and compassion.

[Diana]

Now I am not saying that everyone has to make this choice for the same reasons that I do, everyone's biases and limits of perception will determine how they have distilled the polarity behind their choice. That's why I said it is important to follow one's own intuition in accomplishing one's role, rather than to let oneself be manipulated by the chaos of other people's thoughts and emotions.

What of the chaos of our own thoughts and emotions Minyatur? You can't read fear, anxiety or attempts to guilt or undermine into my statements, unless you are projecting those onto me.

To be fair, I don't see that Minyatur did that at all. He seems to be speaking generally. We all have some chaos and lack of understanding in this reality. And to check in with self, regardless of what is said, promoted, or happening externally, I think is an important thing. 

And may I ask to those who will choose nature over medical intervention, if you caught nits, would you use nit shampoo?  

Not to be argumentative, but shampoo and an injection that invades the body are very different things. But I take your point. And Minyatur did point out that some treatments were useful and some less so—in general.

STO is inextricably tied up with free will. Look at the lengths those of Ra went to avoid free-will infringement. It was integral to the contact and presentation of the LOO. It can be difficult when one feels strongly about something to accept the free will of others with centeredness. In my case, I have made some strides, but I still get attached to the idea that humans (the entire world for the most part) use and abuse animals. I continue to work on acceptance. 

[Spaced]

Part of the argument is failing to see the need of my mind/body/spirit, or most people's mind/body/spirit complexes, to be fed a vaccine they do not need. So your quote does not really make any sense within this context, and this does not deny that it can make sense for the smaller percentage of the population that is more at risk to take precautions either if they do not believe in their ability to deal with this virus, nor that I can take precautions with such people.

Except that's bot how viruses work. If only some people get the vaccine and others don't then the virus will still spread and every new infection gives it a chance to mutate and then the at risk population will be at risk of catching the new strain.

This virus has killed 2.3 million people globally, and many who have recovered are still experiencing symptoms months later that may actually never go away.

Your idea that people are suffering ill effects because they don't believe in their ability to deal with the virus is lacking in compassion as well as being completely ungrounded in reality.

[confusedseeker]

Part of the argument is failing to see the need of my mind/body/spirit, or most people's mind/body/spirit complexes, to be fed a vaccine they do not need. So your quote does not really make any sense within this context, and this does not deny that it can make sense for the smaller percentage of the population that is more at risk to take precautions either if they do not believe in their ability to deal with this virus, nor that I can take precautions with such people.

Except that's bot how viruses work. If only some people get the vaccine and others don't then the virus will still spread and every new infection gives it a chance to mutate and then the at risk population will be at risk of catching the new strain.

Are you saying that you support mandatory vaccinations for us? If so, this goes against everything this site stands for. I think it should be made clear.

[Minyatur]

Part of the argument is failing to see the need of my mind/body/spirit, or most people's mind/body/spirit complexes, to be fed a vaccine they do not need. So your quote does not really make any sense within this context, and this does not deny that it can make sense for the smaller percentage of the population that is more at risk to take precautions either if they do not believe in their ability to deal with this virus, nor that I can take precautions with such people.

Except that's bot how viruses work. If only some people get the vaccine and others don't then the virus will still spread and every new infection gives it a chance to mutate and then the at risk population will be at risk of catching the new strain.

This virus has killed 2.3 million people globally, and many who have recovered are still experiencing symptoms months later that may actually never go away.

Your idea that people are suffering ill effects because they don't believe in their ability to deal with the virus is lacking in compassion as well as being completely ungrounded in reality.

I meant more in the sense of knowing yourself.

[Spaced]

Part of the argument is failing to see the need of my mind/body/spirit, or most people's mind/body/spirit complexes, to be fed a vaccine they do not need. So your quote does not really make any sense within this context, and this does not deny that it can make sense for the smaller percentage of the population that is more at risk to take precautions either if they do not believe in their ability to deal with this virus, nor that I can take precautions with such people.

Except that's bot how viruses work. If only some people get the vaccine and others don't then the virus will still spread and every new infection gives it a chance to mutate and then the at risk population will be at risk of catching the new strain.

Are you saying that you support mandatory vaccinations for us?  If so, this goes against everything this site stands for.  I think it should be made clear.

No, I still support people's right to choose, I just want people to make informed decisions and not selfish ones based around the fear of vaccines.

[confusedseeker]

Part of the argument is failing to see the need of my mind/body/spirit, or most people's mind/body/spirit complexes, to be fed a vaccine they do not need. So your quote does not really make any sense within this context, and this does not deny that it can make sense for the smaller percentage of the population that is more at risk to take precautions either if they do not believe in their ability to deal with this virus, nor that I can take precautions with such people.

Except that's bot how viruses work. If only some people get the vaccine and others don't then the virus will still spread and every new infection gives it a chance to mutate and then the at risk population will be at risk of catching the new strain.

Are you saying that you support mandatory vaccinations for us?  If so, this goes against everything this site stands for.  I think it should be made clear.

No, I still support people's right to choose, I just want people to make informed decisions and not selfish ones based around the fear of vaccines.

All of that is subjective. As long as no one is forcing vaccination...that's when the alarms should go off.

[Agua]

reomoved

[zedro]

I think Aguas comment is the area where the discussion should be, in the metaphysical realm. Because otherwise it becomes "my science vs your science" or "my propaganda vs your propaganda"...there's no end to it as there are so many agendas out there. I find it strange how we will conviniently fall in and out of the metaphysical philosophies when it comes to disputing realities which reflect our fears, and our attachment to an outcome. Myself included.

If you feel this (pandemic and related issues) is a test that has a universal solution, and that you need to join a team and participate as dictated by a central authority, I think more reflection is required.

[Spaced]

On a metaphysical level see this as a global catalyst that is testing to see if we can work together on a global level to overcome an obstacle rather than retreating into self-centered concerns about individual rights.

Hatonn talks about their own harvest experience and how they failed to work together and ended up ruining their planet and it was only when the survivors were forced to share or face extinction that they were able to graduate from third density. I would rather we learn to work together before it comes to that.

[zedro]

On a metaphysical level see this as a global catalyst that is testing to see if we can work together on a global level to overcome an obstacle rather than retreating into self-centered concerns about individual rights.

That is a narrative framing device that is not necessarily true, but rather a projection of a belief on what you perceive to be reality. In fact that type of narrative ironically is what causes separation. Namely, that either those who don't follow your beliefs are either selfish or delusional, or both.

The 4th density isn't about unity, it's about harmony.

[confusedseeker]

On a metaphysical level see this as a global catalyst that is testing to see if we can work together on a global level to overcome an obstacle rather than retreating into self-centered concerns about individual rights.

YOU see this as such, but many people do not.  Many people see how wrong the media has been and how fear driven it has been, how politicized it has been, how economically damaging it has been (without data to support massive economic lockdowns, destruction of small businesses, inconsistencies in treatment of different political events, destroying a year of childrens' education without data to support such action), how WRONG our "experts" have been (particularly "global" experts who have proven to be entirely corrupt, talk of Great Reset, Davos Agenda)...and they choose not to partake in the hysteria and fear.  It's all subjective. I see both sides of it, I choose not to partake in the plan laid out to me by tech oligarchs, banking elites, and corporate media.  You might be totally right, but to me, I see too many inconsistencies and too much censorship and lack of open dialogue to take part....go ahead, I'm not going to stop anyone either way.

As a side note, I know people over 50 who are taking the vaccine, even though they feel the virus is totally overhyped.  Why would they? Because the data suggests they are at more of a risk...I don't blame them. When it is suggested that their children also get vaccinated, their responses are usually a firm "NO".

[Spaced]

I have to admit that I am speaking from a deep personal bias and I apologize for that. The reason I am a little upset is because I am tired of the anti-science attitude that seems to underpin many of the arguments about vaccination. Science and metaphysics are not incompatible fields, in fact quite the opposite. Science allows us to test theories, record and refine results. Things like the discovery of germ theory and the development of vaccines have eradicated diseases such as polio which has plagued us since prehistory.

A lot of the arguments I see are similar to ones we see whenever stuff like this happens. I'm sick of this lock down and I know the fastest way to end it is for as many people as possible to get vaccinated. Now I know that's just my opinion but I see no other way for us to get past this other than to deny that it's happening which doesn't help anything.

I don't want mandatory vaccinations but that means we need a lot of volunteers.

[confusedseeker]

I'm sick of this lock down and I know the fastest way to end it is for as many people as possible to get vaccinated.

This is where we would differ.  I totally understand the rest of your post, and I commend your honesty and outlook.  In my opinion, lockdowns have been mostly political and as a catalyst for economic redistribution (away from small businesses, which have been utterly ravaged, while politicians get pay raises).  Lockdowns weren't about hospitals being over flooded, I know too many people in the medical field who know this never happened.  If lockdowns were so important, why did they allow mass rioting, burning, looting, and other protests during the peak of the virus (even the WHO, aided by the CCP, said go ahead and protest lol)?  It's totally illogical and political.  It was never about "flattening a curve" either.  There is a much larger agenda at work, and now they aren't even trying to hide it anymore.  Florida didn't have lockdowns or mandatory masks on a large scale, and they did great...in fact, everyone is moving there now and away from my home state (which is run by a clown, California).

[Patrick]

I would like us to switch the focus to evidence based instead of science based if we are to bring this closer to the metaphysical. The distinction is mostly just perception anyway.

So far I have seen zero evidence that this vaccine is anymore dangerous than other vaccine. Someone saying that it is, is not evidence. I would like data please.

By now we should start seeing evidence of all these nefarious effects the vaccine is supposed to be having.

[Ohr Ein Sof]

I would like to add one point to this conversation that will likely be unpopular. Vaccines, including COVID vaccine (as far as I have read) are tested on animals.

I know most people care more about people than they do animals. I don't. I care about all life forms. I don't imagine STO means service only to humans. I do not think it is fair for humans to test their products on animals causing untold pain and suffering. They should test products on themselves and use computer models.

This is one reason why I don't support vaccines (or any pharmaceuticals that use these methods, though I am not judging anyone who does). The other is that I trust my immune system. I also trust in what Ra said about second-density entities offering catalyst, and that catalyst not causing harm if it's not needed (for anyone). 

That said, if there was a vaccine not tested on animals, I would look at that as a possibility if I thought it would actually help the world by taking it. I am not at this time convinced it would. 

Good point.  I'd also like to point out that 80-90% of Covid hospitalizations are in people who are Vitamin D deficient, so you might as well supplement that along with Vit C and Zinc.  If you feel symptoms, look into Ivermectin.  Our immune systems are amazing.

Ivermectin? The horse wormer medicine?