3D to 4D: Sudden or Gradual? A great read...(David Wilcock interview)

[3DMonkey]

I think the question now is whether entities are forced into time/space (through death) or whether they enter time/space through natural causes.

Harvest can be the striking of a clock, the gateway to intelligent infinity opening in time/space and being available for all upon entering time/space, it is the method of entry into time/space which is curious.

Does intelligent infinity perform what Ra has called an STS action and murder everyone?

The great thing about time/space is that an entity that died in 1542 can move immediately to a time of harvest. There isn't any need to associate all current incarnations with a certain time of harvest.

[Namaste]

It does make sense that the harvest is in time/space, as that would satisfy two conditions:

1. Each entity walking the steps of light upon 'death' (subjective to each person)
2. The clicking of the cosmic clock (applicable to all).

Since time/space is the dimension of 3-dimensional time, the 'eternal now' takes on a whole new meaning, meaning, the two above statements are both valid. The linear timeline we experience here is well known to be an illusion.

Hence, we've already been harvested :¬)

This is similar to something I've wondered about. Ra says that the creation periodically coalesces back into itself. When that happens, what happens to those who are not done evolving through the densities?

This was a piece of information that stuck with me too. My personal impression was that of a full in-out cosmic breath. The coalescing being between the out and in breath. Creation, in it's infinity, starts again from an infinitely new point. This breath in human years would be unimaginable :¬)

[Bring4th_Austin]

This is similar to something I've wondered about. Ra says that the creation periodically coalesces back into itself. When that happens, what happens to those who are not done evolving through the densities?

I've always figured that near the end of the coalescing back inward, there would cease to be new entities starting evolution. The cycle back inward would not complete until the last entity is done evolving.

[unity100]

Thank you.

It does not make sense to me that non-harvestable entities somehow avoided this "clock strike" of intelligent infinity during the first two cycles. I understand that this time entities are harvested regardless of progress, but entities incarnate in space/time obviously have some chance of avoiding this clock strike while incarnate.

i actually didnt say that non harvestable entities avoided this clock strike at all. they may not have avoided it.

or, it may be dependent on the harvestee status - contact with intelligent infinity, in these cycles. you may choose to get harvested through your contact.

but it seems in the last cycle all is harvested regardless of progress. this may mean everyone may get out.

Is it not possible that this clock strike only effects time/space, and entities are not aware of it until their arrival into time/space after they depart space/time? Otherwise, how did it discern these entities during the first two cycles? The clock struck, the gateway to intelligent infinity opened...but only for polarized individuals?

'only time/space' seems to ascribe little importance to events happening in time/space.

anything affecting entire time/space, will affect us totally and directly. our feelings, thoughts, everything take place in time/space after all. a time/space manifestation without a physical body is possible, but a space/time manifestation without a time/space presence is not.

how did it discern these entities ? there is no need to discern. an entity opening the gateway to infinite intelligence cannot mistake that event. infinite intelligence doesnt mistake anything.

intelligent infinity gate seems to be available for everyone, yet contacting intelligent infinity seems to be relevant to the development of the entity.

entities can open the gateway to intelligent infinity during incarnation. this was mentioned in a few occasions in Ra material.

This still doesn't change the fact that the information is prophetic regarding metaphysical mechanics with no application in our daily lives. How do you apply information regarding harvest in your philosophical and spiritual views of life, besides preparing yourself for the supposed date? What does it teach us about spirituality and philosophy?

gateway to intelligent infinity will be accessible for anyone who is able to access it. this is something major. that affects everything in an entity's life.

What do you make of this specific passage?

63.28 Questioner: Then are these entities of whom we have spoken, the third-density harvestable who have been transferred, the ones who then will, by bisexual reproduction, create the fourth-density complexes that are necessary?
Ra: I am Ra. The influxes of true color green energy complexes will more and more create the conditions in which the atomic structure of cells of bodily complexes is that of the density of love. The mind/body/spirit complexes inhabiting these physical vehicles will be, and to some extent, are, those of whom you spoke and, as harvest is completed, the harvested entities of this planetary influence.

Ra says "as harvest is completed," not "when harvest happens." For something to be completed implies there was a process.

naturally, it wouldnt take a split second. the gateway would be open for some time. 'harvest taking place in 2011' implies some time within that year.

10.9 Questioner: When graduation occurs at the end of a cycle, and entities are moved from one planet to another, by what means do they go to a new planet?
Ra: I am Ra. In the scheme of the Creator, the first step of the mind/body/spirit/totality/beingness is to place its mind/body/spirit complex distortion in the proper place of love/light. This is done to ensure proper healing of the complex and eventual attunement with the totality/beingness complex. This takes a very variable length of your time/space. After this is accomplished the experience of the cycle is dissolved and filtered until only the distillation of distortions in its pure form remains.At this time, the harvested mind/body/spirit/totality/beingness evaluates the density needs of its beingness and chooses the more appropriate new environment for either a repetition of the cycle or a moving forward into the next cycle. This is the manner of the harvesting, guarded and watched over by many.

"This take a variable length of your time/space." Even if all are harvested at the same exact moment, the process will still take varying amounts of time, possibly hundreds or thousands of years.

first,notice that all these happen after graduation.

second, there is the totality involved. totality can place the entity at any point in time, space. this may take a very variable amount of our time, but, it doesnt have to be in our time/space on this planet. it can be any nexus.

Could the gateway to intelligent infinity simply allow us to evaluate our density needs in time/space? Are we so sure it has an effect in space/time?

any situation in time/space would reflect on the situation on space/time, eventually. this is how various mechanisms like disease through stress etc works, and the blockages work.

the effect would probably as fast as the development of entity, its vibration and the magnitude/nature of effect in time/space.

the physicality would get affected as such, but the consciousness of the entity would get affected much more profoundly and speedily.

Ra uses the clock analogy for something we know is gradual. Yes, it is regularized as the striking of a clock, but that doesn't mean it is instant. It only means that it for sure will happen at a certain time, not a certain instant.

arrival of 4d with the end of the 3d cycle with the clock mechanism is analogy here. 3d cycle ends with the clock, 4d cycle starts. the end of the cycle and start of 4d cycle are therefore precisely timed.

arrival of 4d, is not 'passage to 4d bodies'. what's gradual is, passage to 4d bodies.

However, the point about the non-harvestable entities 25,000 years ago is intriguing. The issue there, though, is the one Austin referred to: "all are harvested" this time.

yes indeed, the point about non harvestable entities 25,000 years ago is intriguing, and we dont have any recognizable traces of remains of civilizations from 1st and 2nd cycles.

[3DMonkey]

"naturally, it wouldnt take a split second. the gateway would be open for some time. 'harvest taking place in 2011' implies some time within that year. "

See, I think that implies that year within some time.

[Bring4th_Austin]

i actually didnt say that non harvestable entities avoided this clock strike at all. they may not have avoided it.

Our bodies came from somewhere. I guess you could say that aliens placed more human bodies on Earth after the cycles, but Occam's Razor would suggest there was a continuation of the gene pool.

Is it not possible that this clock strike only effects time/space, and entities are not aware of it until their arrival into time/space after they depart space/time? Otherwise, how did it discern these entities during the first two cycles? The clock struck, the gateway to intelligent infinity opened...but only for polarized individuals?

'only time/space' seems to ascribe little importance to events happening in time/space.

anything affecting entire time/space, will affect us totally and directly. our feelings, thoughts, everything take place in time/space after all. a time/space manifestation without a physical body is possible, but a space/time manifestation without a time/space presence is not.

There's much within time/space that we cannot access from our space/time incarnations, what if the gateway to intelligent infinity is one of them? The veil could easily block this.

Also, Ra said 4D vibrations were primarily within time/space at the time of the contact. This is evidence that something can be affecting time/space and not space/time.

entities can open the gateway to intelligent infinity during incarnation. this was mentioned in a few occasions in Ra material.

Because they can, does that mean it will be forced upon them when harvest comes? Will intelligent infinity abridge free will?

This still doesn't change the fact that the information is prophetic regarding metaphysical mechanics with no application in our daily lives. How do you apply information regarding harvest in your philosophical and spiritual views of life, besides preparing yourself for the supposed date? What does it teach us about spirituality and philosophy?

gateway to intelligent infinity will be accessible for anyone who is able to access it. this is something major. that affects everything in an entity's life.

But it doesn't yet, and you can't prove that the event will actually happen. It is prophetic, no different from Christians believe the rapture will arrive on May 15th. Yeah, the rapture being here will affect everything in every entities life, that doesn't change the fact it's a prophecy of future events.

10.9 Questioner: When graduation occurs at the end of a cycle, and entities are moved from one planet to another, by what means do they go to a new planet?
Ra: I am Ra. In the scheme of the Creator, the first step of the mind/body/spirit/totality/beingness is to place its mind/body/spirit complex distortion in the proper place of love/light. This is done to ensure proper healing of the complex and eventual attunement with the totality/beingness complex. This takes a very variable length of your time/space. After this is accomplished the experience of the cycle is dissolved and filtered until only the distillation of distortions in its pure form remains.At this time, the harvested mind/body/spirit/totality/beingness evaluates the density needs of its beingness and chooses the more appropriate new environment for either a repetition of the cycle or a moving forward into the next cycle. This is the manner of the harvesting, guarded and watched over by many.

"This take a variable length of your time/space." Even if all are harvested at the same exact moment, the process will still take varying amounts of time, possibly hundreds or thousands of years.

first,notice that all these happen after graduation.

Ra says "this is the manner of harvesting," implying that this process itself is included in the harvest.

second, there is the totality involved. totality can place the entity at any point in time, space. this may take a very variable amount of our time, but, it doesnt have to be in our time/space on this planet. it can be any nexus.

Considering that it is this nexus being evaluated to determine the nexus immediately following, I would think it is logical to assume that it takes place in this nexus.

Ra uses the clock analogy for something we know is gradual. Yes, it is regularized as the striking of a clock, but that doesn't mean it is instant. It only means that it for sure will happen at a certain time, not a certain instant.

arrival of 4d with the end of the 3d cycle with the clock mechanism is analogy here. 3d cycle ends with the clock, 4d cycle starts. the end of the cycle and start of 4d cycle are therefore precisely timed.

Right, and we know that the switch to 4D in space/time isn't instant, it is a process, while a precisely timed process, still a gradual process. The arrival of 4D energy is as the striking of a clock, yet when it arrived some years ago, everything was not instantly switched to 4D. And as 3D vibrations disappear in a year or so, Ra still says the transition will take hundreds of years. And so, while the arrival of the energy is like the striking of a clock, the transition is not as instant as the striking of a clock. Since Ra used this same analogy for harvest, we can allow the same assumption that harvest might be precisely timed to arrive, but doesn't happen in the instant of a clock strike.

arrival of 4d, is not 'passage to 4d bodies'. what's gradual is, passage to 4d bodies.

The transition of the Earth is also gradual, and that is what was being specifically described as the striking of a clock.

13.23 Questioner: How does a third-density planet become a fourth density planet?
Ra: I am Ra. This will be the last full question.

The fourth density is, as we have said, as regularized in its approach as the striking of a clock upon the hour. The space/time of your solar system has enabled this planetary sphere to spiral into space/time of a different vibrational configuration. This causes the planetary sphere to be able to be molded by these new distortions. However, the thought-forms of your people during this transition period are such that the mind/body/spirit complexes of both individual and societies are scattered throughout the spectrum instead of becoming able to grasp the needle, shall we say, and point the compass in one direction.

40.8 Questioner: Then what will be the time of transition on this planet from third to fourth-density?
Ra: I am Ra. This is difficult to estimate due to the uncharacteristic anomalies of this transition. There are at this space/time nexus beings incarnate which have begun fourth-density work. However, the third-density climate of planetary consciousness is retarding the process. At this particular nexus the possibility/probability vortices indicate somewhere between 100 and 700 of your years as transition period. This cannot be accurate due to the volatility of your peoples at this space/time.

So while it is as regularized as the striking of a clock, it still takes 100 to 700 years.

I understand this is not talking about harvest, but the transition to 4D. I am simply pointing this out because Ra used the analogy for both.

However, the point about the non-harvestable entities 25,000 years ago is intriguing. The issue there, though, is the one Austin referred to: "all are harvested" this time.

yes indeed, the point about non harvestable entities 25,000 years ago is intriguing, and we dont have any recognizable traces of remains of civilizations from 1st and 2nd cycles.

Again, I would consider the existence of the human race proof that there were surviving humans after those cycles.

[Oceania]

if the harvest doesn't change something fundamental, then why shouldn't we try to make our lives longer?

[unity100]

Our bodies came from somewhere. I guess you could say that aliens placed more human bodies on Earth after the cycles, but Occam's Razor would suggest there was a continuation of the gene pool.

that is a question, and it was not at all asked in Ra material. moreover, traces of past civilizations seem to have disappeared rather way too conveniently. (not limited to lemuria or atlantis) but this was not asked about either.

so, currently, we dont have much pointers to this.

There's much within time/space that we cannot access from our space/time incarnations, what if the gateway to intelligent infinity is one of them? The veil could easily block this.

Also, Ra said 4D vibrations were primarily within time/space at the time of the contact. This is evidence that something can be affecting time/space and not space/time.

we now that gateway can be reached during incarnation. negative entities do that by harvesting themselves (garnering energy from others by negative polarization) but it seems positive entities can do it during harvest times/cycle ends.

Because they can, does that mean it will be forced upon them when harvest comes? Will intelligent infinity abridge free will?

this is a very deep topic actually.

intelligent infinity allows 6d future manifestation of an entity deciding when and how an entity dies in an 3d incarnation. intelligent infinity allows memory complex totality, or complex totality of an entity decide which lessons the entity should revisit, complex totality places the entity in appropriate experience nexus etc etc. there are a lot of stuff that are done by external sources when it needs to be done.

moreover we know that all entities are harvested regardless of progress. entities cannot choose not to be harvested at the end of major cycles. if you think that is forced. well.

But it doesn't yet, and you can't prove that the event will actually happen.

actually we know of other entities which have found this gateway. there is an abundance of it in legends, religious literature, or spiritual literature of recent times. it is also described in Ra material. how does experience of opening the gateway to intelligent infinity during an incarnation feels...

so, we can say that there already have been entities who opened this gate, apart from negatively polarized ones.

and we are told that the gate from intelligent energy to intelligent infinity opens regardless of the circumstance upon striking of the clock, at the end of major cycle.

so basically we know that it will open.

Ra says "this is the manner of harvesting," implying that this process itself is included in the harvest.

yes, however it is not relevant to how and when the entity dies at the end of a cycle.

what interests us is the reflection of that process that takes in the totality level (which is timeless) to our space/time time.

and for that, we have not been told that it takes centuries. we were told that it would happen in the year 2011.

second, there is the totality involved. totality can place the entity at any point in time, space. this may take a very variable amount of our time, but, it doesnt have to be in our time/space on this planet. it can be any nexus.

Considering that it is this nexus being evaluated to determine the nexus immediately following, I would think it is logical to assume that it takes place in this nexus.

not quite. cycle ends. those which are not harvestable have to be placed in other 3d experiences somewhere else in galaxy. (if not creation). or, an entity may be in a higher octave than the experiential nexus of 4d that is to yet start here, and it may be placed in another 4d nexus.

Right, and we know that the switch to 4D in space/time isn't instant, it is a process, while a precisely timed process, still a gradual process. The arrival of 4D energy is as the striking of a clock, yet when it arrived some years ago, everything was not instantly switched to 4D. And as 3D vibrations disappear in a year or so, Ra still says the transition will take hundreds of years. And so, while the arrival of the energy is like the striking of a clock, the transition is not as instant as the striking of a clock. Since Ra used this same analogy for harvest, we can allow the same assumption that harvest might be precisely timed to arrive, but doesn't happen in the instant of a clock strike.

i think you are greatly mistaken.

the switch to 4d in space/time is not necessary. photon is vibrating in green spectrum, ra tells us, since 1937. just that upon striking of the clock, the green vibration will be in full force, and the 4d sphere which is only in time/space now, will be solid and habitable.

on the other hand, transition to full 4d bodies may take as many hundreds of years as it needs, since it doesnt involve entities that need to be harvested - they are already entities which are harvested.

arrival of 4d, is not 'passage to 4d bodies'. what's gradual is, passage to 4d bodies.

The transition of the Earth is also gradual, and that is what was being specifically described as the striking of a clock.

13.23 Questioner: How does a third-density planet become a fourth density planet?
Ra: I am Ra. This will be the last full question.

The fourth density is, as we have said, as regularized in its approach as the striking of a clock upon the hour. The space/time of your solar system has enabled this planetary sphere to spiral into space/time of a different vibrational configuration. This causes the planetary sphere to be able to be molded by these new distortions. However, the thought-forms of your people during this transition period are such that the mind/body/spirit complexes of both individual and societies are scattered throughout the spectrum instead of becoming able to grasp the needle, shall we say, and point the compass in one direction.

40.8 Questioner: Then what will be the time of transition on this planet from third to fourth-density?
Ra: I am Ra. This is difficult to estimate due to the uncharacteristic anomalies of this transition. There are at this space/time nexus beings incarnate which have begun fourth-density work. However, the third-density climate of planetary consciousness is retarding the process. At this particular nexus the possibility/probability vortices indicate somewhere between 100 and 700 of your years as transition period. This cannot be accurate due to the volatility of your peoples at this space/time.

So while it is as regularized as the striking of a clock, it still takes 100 to 700 years.

I understand this is not talking about harvest, but the transition to 4D. I am simply pointing this out because Ra used the analogy for both.

well, that leaves little to say to me, since you yourself mentioned that it doesnt relate to harvest.

transition to a full 4d experience in 4d bodies, after harvest, starts with the harvest. it is not analogous with the harvest. otherwise, there would be no need to differentiate the two.

the start of this process and initiation of 4d sphere, apparently, work like a clock and happen at the striking of the hour. the transition of experiential nexus and the 4d bodies to inhabit it, may take any hundreds of years.

but, during all that process, 4d sphere will be available there. you may as well choose to populate it with 4d bodies brought from elsewhere, by having 4d entities incarnate in them.

but, you may wait the existing biological bodies create the 4d bodies for the 4d through biological evolution over a period. that is transition.

Again, I would consider the existence of the human race proof that there were surviving humans after those cycles.

open for debate. there are a lot of extinct sub species of hominoid monkeys.

[Oceania]

I really don't know. I never thought about it much until this thread.

The main thing I can find in the Ra material about it is the quote I mentioned earlier -- unspeakable profundity.

to me those most subtle are those most grand. experiencing something unspeakably profound could be very very private and subtle. the bigger the lightshow the more bored i am usually.

[Monica]

I completely agree with this. Only quibble is that there wasn't any one session where Ra didn't use "I am Ra"; instead there are answers in which Ra omitted "I am Ra" here and there throughout a number of the sessions.

Thanks for the correction!

---

17.29 Questioner: Am I to understand that the harvest is to occur in the year 2011, or will it be spread out?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an approximation. We have stated we have difficulty with your time/space. This is an appropriate probable/possible time/space nexus for harvest. Those who are not in incarnation at this time will be included in the harvest.

It seems difficult to reconcile this with the Q'uo channelings.

[Bring4th_Austin]

This has been a marathon Unity, I have to take a break. I'm going to chew what you've supplied and sometime in the next few days I'll continue this discussion.


To get slightly personal, there are underlying reasons why I believe in a gradual transition, and I'll explain a little about it. I see danger within a belief system which promotes a day of salvation; some specific point in the future where the world will change on its own and we are left with only positive things to work with. I find it to be in line with the return of Jesus that fundamentalist Christians hide behind as an excuse to rape our Earth of natural resources, etc. If we believe in a day will come where all of the negative people will disappear, all of the systems which don't work will automatically fail, and we're given only positive things to work with, it gives us very little reason to strive for a better tomorrow.

We may prepare for that day and "strive for polarization," but there are some very negative systems rooted on our planet which will need changed if we are not to destroy ourselves and if we ever want to reach a point where the planet is unified in peace. I have hope that, as time goes on, the world will be full of more and more enlightened people who can see the fault in our systems, but I cannot take that faith a step further without entering a dangerous place. I will strive for the rest of my life to change the systems on this planet which cause suffering, which harm our mother Earth, and which keep people trapped in suffering or a deep sleep of unawareness.

I hope that in my striving for objectivity, I can put this personal belief down and analyze the words of Ra loyally and without influence, no matter how transient or prophetic. I feel it is an important exercise, and I feel like the Ra material is the perfect tool to use this exercise. Of course, complete objectivity is impossible, and I can't say that my personal beliefs don't push me to continue this discussion.

"In a world where everything is, in a clichéd way, relative, you can easily and comfortably accept the proposition that your experience is subjective. You may strive all your life to achieve objectivity, but you see, my friends, you are there. You are a witness, and that which you observe is observed according to your perceptions. The truth lies beyond perception."

17.29 Questioner: Am I to understand that the harvest is to occur in the year 2011, or will it be spread out?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an approximation. We have stated we have difficulty with your time/space. This is an appropriate probable/possible time/space nexus for harvest. Those who are not in incarnation at this time will be included in the harvest.

It seems difficult to reconcile this with the Q'uo channelings.

I have been trying to avoid using the Q'uo channelings out of respect for unity and his expressed views on them.

[3DMonkey]

if the harvest doesn't change something fundamental, then why shouldn't we try to make our lives longer?

It does change something. How long "does" it take to "do" what is "does"?

---

Can I give my personal note?

I was once very fixated on non-gradual, instant switch. I defended it with all the "proper" Ra quotes. One day, I shut down my defenses and opened my eyes, and with help from two members on a single thread, my mind was finally capable of seeing the gradual ideas.

Then I looked at myself for why I was walled off defensively. It was something like Austin's view, but from a completely different angle. I wanted to place the Ra work into an ultimatum. I wanted them to be right or wrong by the end of 2011. Either the big switch was going to occur "like Ra says" or else Ra was going to be exposed as a bunch of BS.

As you know, I see past that now. It may all be BS, but, like all things metaphysical, I really won't know until I die.

[Raman]

It is becoming a moot point. To me, now, it is a choice. I understand you have little kids etc and orange ray of protection takes over and it is understandable. However, in my opinion, such thinking hinders evolution.

That you changed opinions does not mean you were wrong before and now right...viceversa...Information available is the same. However, I respect your opinion and choice of thinking and it is valid. Choices are choices. And I agree: You won't really know until death.

However, the info is there.

[3DMonkey]

It is becoming a moot point. To me, now, it is a choice. I understand you have little kids etc and orange ray of protection takes over and it is understandable. However, in my opinion, such thinking hinders evolution.

That is completely unfair. I guarantee you I do not fear death, and I guarantee that this topic does not invoke fear for loved ones. I have complete faith in the reality of life after death.

I hate doing this, but we all know the feeling of "oh, I used the same justifications once...". I hate doing that because I always want to encourage a person's independent perspective.

[Bring4th_Austin]

It is becoming a moot point. To me, now, it is a choice. I understand you have little kids etc and orange ray of protection takes over and it is understandable. However, in my opinion, such thinking hinders evolution.

To be fair Raman, I feel you are projecting things onto the opposing viewpoint. In another thread, you projected the thought that a belief in gradual transition meant someone was okay with the suffering in 3D, even going so far to say that they "didn't deserve to be harvested." You also projected the idea that someone that believed in gradual transition must be "tolerant to 3D and not ready for 4D," and "scared of losing their 3D body."

Here, you are projecting the idea that 3DMonkey is caught in orange ray protection of his tribe, with little basis for that accusation.

Why do you feel the need to apply such things to someone who opposes your viewpoint? Why reach into others' personal lives like that with no basis of knowing who they really are?

That you changed opinions does not mean you were wrong before and now right...viceversa...

And no one is claiming that.

Information available is the same. However, I respect your opinion and choice of thinking and it is valid. Choices are choices. And I agree: You won't really know until death.

However, the info is there.

I appreciate the respect for others' opinions, though I am curious about the projections, and you are right; the info is there, and open for interpretation.

[unity100]

To get slightly personal, there are underlying reasons why I believe in a gradual transition, and I'll explain a little about it. I see danger within a belief system which promotes a day of salvation; some specific point in the future where the world will change on its own and we are left with only positive things to work with. I find it to be in line with the return of Jesus that fundamentalist Christians hide behind as an excuse to rape our Earth of natural resources, etc. If we believe in a day will come where all of the negative people will disappear, all of the systems which don't work will automatically fail, and we're given only positive things to work with, it gives us very little reason to strive for a better tomorrow.

your points are all valid.

however if it is as i have mentioned, it doesnt have any such connotations, since it will be a day in which just what was necessary to happen would happen. salvation this that, these are all passing stories and stuff in the journey of a spirit. an entity which needs an experience in another nexus would get placed to a totally different nexus in the blink of an eye by its totality.

I hope that in my striving for objectivity, I can put this personal belief down and analyze the words of Ra loyally and without influence, no matter how transient or prophetic. I feel it is an important exercise, and I feel like the Ra material is the perfect tool to use this exercise. Of course, complete objectivity is impossible, and I can't say that my personal beliefs don't push me to continue this discussion.

or you can see it so that this logos is teaching something particular at this junction to all participating spirits, and it will continue teaching it until the very last moment arrives. and when the moment is passed, lessons learned, nexus complete, everyone goes their way.

I have been trying to avoid using the Q'uo channelings out of respect for unity and his expressed views on them.

i dont particularly dislike quo channelings. but i cant trust them either.

It is becoming a moot point. To me, now, it is a choice. I understand you have little kids etc and orange ray of protection takes over and it is understandable. However, in my opinion, such thinking hinders evolution.

To be fair Raman, I feel you are projecting things onto the opposing viewpoint. In another thread, you projected the thought that a belief in gradual transition meant someone was okay with the suffering in 3D, even going so far to say that they "didn't deserve to be harvested." You also projected the idea that someone that believed in gradual transition must be "tolerant to 3D and not ready for 4D," and "scared of losing their 3D body."

Here, you are projecting the idea that 3DMonkey is caught in orange ray protection of his tribe, with little basis for that accusation.

Why do you feel the need to apply such things to someone who opposes your viewpoint? Why reach into others' personal lives like that with no basis of knowing who they really are?

lets admit it - all of us have this or that worry for someone we know. even if we know that the journey is eternal and those people will also pass over whatever they are going through here, we always want them to pass over soon, now. its not unnatural.

[zenmaster]

Suffering with free will is fine. That's the condition of this density. That is, to be cut off from the spirit is to suffer.

But suffering due to other co-creator's mindless oppression (first due to survival concerns, then due to freedom of expression) restricts opportunities to polarize. This type of oppressive environment can be wasteful of the incarnation and a disservice to others.

[Raman]

It is becoming a moot point. To me, now, it is a choice. I understand you have little kids etc and orange ray of protection takes over and it is understandable. However, in my opinion, such thinking hinders evolution.

To be fair Raman, I feel you are projecting things onto the opposing viewpoint. In another thread, you projected the thought that a belief in gradual transition meant someone was okay with the suffering in 3D, even going so far to say that they "didn't deserve to be harvested." You also projected the idea that someone that believed in gradual transition must be "tolerant to 3D and not ready for 4D," and "scared of losing their 3D body."

Here, you are projecting the idea that 3DMonkey is caught in orange ray protection of his tribe, with little basis for that accusation.

Why do you feel the need to apply such things to someone who opposes your viewpoint? Why reach into others' personal lives like that with no basis of knowing who they really are?

That you changed opinions does not mean you were wrong before and now right...viceversa...

And no one is claiming that.

Information available is the same. However, I respect your opinion and choice of thinking and it is valid. Choices are choices. And I agree: You won't really know until death.

However, the info is there.

I appreciate the respect for others' opinions, though I am curious about the projections, and you are right; the info is there, and open for interpretation.

Obviously, it was not my intention to offend anyone..you see I can also say you or 3DM are "projecting"...

Projection can be attributed to anything so it really loses the meaning. It could be behind an idea or the result of experiences or catalysts...the whole of 3d is a projection of interplays between mind, body and spirit since there is a veil.

However, I do not intent to discuss this topic any further since the so called projections (form one or another) becomes an easy bullet for anything. But such is the nature of language and the veil and of course of 3d.

Even, if current earth conditions were like living in a paradise...we all singing Kumbaya etc...every body the happiest, Harvest will occur you see...still if you do not want progress..why should progress occur? I very much believe that I would want a 4d change as bad (even with paradise conditions)...--if that is even congruent with 3d in this extreme of the galaxy.

I agree with your ideas of wanting a better 3d and I consider this very necessary..I have mentioned developments having to do with the so called May 15th spanish revolution a an incredible movement 4d oriented...

However...even if this were a paradise, any achievements will be materialize in a 4d + planet. And a gradual approach could make more sense here.

However, a gradual approach in current conditions is not feasible...planet will probably be torn to pieces if current conditions go on...

However (again), if by gradual we understand dual activated ones surviving and transforming "gradually" to a new 4d world then, you see, isvery feasible but still, the harvest per se cannot be equal to that. Otherwise there is no logic in the info (in my opinion) given by Ra.

[βαθμιαίος]

I was thinking about this thread and it occurred to me that Ra's statement that a 100-700 year transition "cannot be accurate due to the volatility of your peoples at this space/time" can be interpreted to imply that 3D bodies do not die at the opening of the gateway, because if they do that would leave only 3D/4D dual-bodied entities, who presumably would not be all that volatile.

As for entities surviving the opening 25,000 years ago, Ra says (10.15) that American Indians are descended from Lemurians.

I'm still currently leaning towards the idea that the striking of the clock will be quite, quite noticeable, but in the spirit of collaboration I want to pass these possibly contra-indicative thoughts along.

[Bring4th_Austin]

I was thinking about this thread and it occurred to me that Ra's statement that a 100-700 year transition "cannot be accurate due to the volatility of your peoples at this space/time" can be interpreted to imply that 3D bodies do not die at the opening of the gateway, because if they do that would leave only 3D/4D dual-bodied entities, who presumably would not be all that volatile.

Amazing catch Mr. loo.info guy (couldn't even begin to guess how to type out your name ). It is an assumption but I'd say a safe assumption?

I'm still currently leaning towards the idea that the striking of the clock will be quite, quite noticeable, but in the spirit of collaboration I want to pass these possibly contra-indicative thoughts along.

Discussing in this thread has given me a lot of new thing to think about regarding the issue. I think the best part about this debate is the fact that we will know for sure in no more than two years

I had given up hope of any sort of real, instant, noticeable event, even though it is something I'd love to experience. The possibility has been brought back into my personal spectrum.

[3DMonkey]

I'm inclined to think we WON'T know in two years. I'm inclined to think the disagreements will continue due to a perspective discrepancy between the noticeable and unnoticeable.

I'd love to notice something. My current track record causes me to lean to pessimism that I will ever see something that clearly stands out.

[unity100]

I was thinking about this thread and it occurred to me that Ra's statement that a 100-700 year transition "cannot be accurate due to the volatility of your peoples at this space/time" can be interpreted to imply that 3D bodies do not die at the opening of the gateway, because if they do that would leave only 3D/4D dual-bodied entities, who presumably would not be all that volatile.

As for entities surviving the opening 25,000 years ago, Ra says (10.15) that American Indians are descended from Lemurians.

these seem logical. however it seems there would be entities living out their 3d lives after harvest, without having had harvested. in a 900 year long 3d incarnation, this would not be something logical.

it is also possible to interpret the volatility statement in regard to many other concepts, like possibilities of war, genetic modification, hampering conditions, this, that.

after all, if the planet was destroyed, there wouldnt be any harvest, if you look at it that way. so, it would make the harvest hard to predict just like how any kind of volatility would make the passage into 4d bodies hard to predict.

---

not to mention, for 3-4d bodies to speedily give way to 4d bodies, the increasingly 4d body owners should mate with each other, producing increasingly 4d bodies.

so, a 3-4d body at a 4d level of, say, 3 should mate with a 3-4d body with a 4d level of 3, and the resulting -say- 3-4d body with a 4d level of 4 should match with a 3-4d body with a 4d level of 4 and so on.

but, if they act and mate randomly and volatile, the matches would not be that speedily neat.

[zenmaster]

I think the mating only affects the 2D body. That is, the genetic contributions to 2D body development. 3D and 4D genetic components would seem to be self contributed.

[βαθμιαίος]

(couldn't even begin to guess how to type out your name ).

Copy and paste.

Discussing in this thread has given me a lot of new thing to think about regarding the issue.

Me, too.

I think the best part about this debate is the fact that we will know for sure in no more than two years

I'm inclined to think we WON'T know in two years.

I'm inclined to agree with 3DMonkey on this (unless, of course, something happens). After all, isn't 35 years "approximately 30"? That would put us into 2016. What about 40 years? etc.

it is also possible to interpret the volatility statement in regard to many other concepts, like possibilities of war, genetic modification, hampering conditions, this, that.

So are you thinking that the 100-700 years might refer to the period before the opening of the gateway?

[Bring4th_Austin]

I think the best part about this debate is the fact that we will know for sure in no more than two years

I'm inclined to think we WON'T know in two years.

I'm inclined to agree with 3DMonkey on this (unless, of course, something happens). After all, isn't 35 years "approximately 30"? That would put us into 2016. What about 40 years? etc.

That's where I see the danger...waiting...waiting..."What about 50 years? 60? Don't worry, keep preparing for harvest...the time is near, you don't need to work on changing the world...the world is going to change itself...any time now...maybe Ra was off by 40 years? Maybe 50?"


Honestly, I'm inclined to say that if the 2012 passes with nothing noticeable happening, I will disregard the chance for it to happen at all. 3D vibrations are going to cease to stream completely soon, and if that doesn't usher in the opening of the gateway, then what would?

And also, I don't know who here puts stake in Q'uo's words, but this passage is of interest: http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._0907.aspx

The Indigo agenda generally has a large area of concern for the planet itself. This is due to the fact that these entities are natives of this planet, having just graduated from third-density Earth. They have graduated to fourth-density positive and have immediately chosen to return to the Earth sphere in a dual-activated third and fourth-density body. Their physical body is third density but they’re wired, shall we say, to be able to absorb fourth-density vibrations of love and understanding in a far less distorted way than those with only the third-density wiring or DNA.

[3DMonkey]

I think the mating only affects the 2D body. That is, the genetic contributions to 2D body development. 3D and 4D genetic components would seem to be self contributed.

So many vibrations from a single entity.

Hypothetical- before incarnation, a harvested entity 4D is given X amount a 4D catalyst to work with and X genetic factor to vibrate the formation of the 2D form with a decided probability of combining that new vibration gene with another entity's new vibration gene to form a 2D baby to be inhabited by a new 4D entity to cause a compounding ability to vibrate a new mutation of physical expression.

Now I'm into 'science'. But I just readjusted my mind on what I consider "inhabited" to mean.... Love these mind melds. This is why we argue, people

[unity100]

I think the mating only affects the 2D body. That is, the genetic contributions to 2D body development. 3D and 4D genetic components would seem to be self contributed.

ra tells us we are using 3d bodies. not 2d bodies. the cellular structure being of 2d entities, does not make a body 2d it seems.

I'm inclined to agree with 3DMonkey on this (unless, of course, something happens). After all, isn't 35 years "approximately 30"? That would put us into 2016. What about 40 years? etc.

the approximation was given as 2011 however. 'in 2011'.

it is also possible to interpret the volatility statement in regard to many other concepts, like possibilities of war, genetic modification, hampering conditions, this, that.

So are you thinking that the 100-700 years might refer to the period before the opening of the gateway?

nay, the transition to 4d bodies and full 4d civilization.

Honestly, I'm inclined to say that if the 2012 passes with nothing noticeable happening, I will disregard the chance for it to happen at all. 3D vibrations are going to cease to stream completely soon, and if that doesn't usher in the opening of the gateway, then what would?

remember that entities which open the gateway to infinite intelligence through any means during incarnation, get to decide how and when they leave.

and experience of opening that gateway, is unmistakable for the entity.

[3DMonkey]

"ra tells us we are using 3d bodies. not 2d bodies. the cellular structure being of 2d entities, does not make a body 2d it seems."

I think that's the same thing Zenmaster was saying. It is our 3D or 4D status that makes this physical form technically 3D or 4D.

Shove a 1D entity into this body and it becomes a single cell. Shove a 2D in and it becomes an orange Ray mess. Shove a 3D in and we get baby bear's just right. Nowadays we are shoving 4Ds into these bodies. What happens is beyond my perception.

[zenmaster]

I think the mating only affects the 2D body. That is, the genetic contributions to 2D body development. 3D and 4D genetic components would seem to be self contributed.

ra tells us we are using 3d bodies. not 2d bodies. the cellular structure being of 2d entities, does not make a body 2d it seems.

In other words, the contribution of the mind/spirit complex is what makes the 2d-genetic body 3d or 3d/4d.

The interconnect between body and mind for 3d and 4d can be considered genetic, as well. 3d genetic is a mixture of individual and social bias (yellow ray), 4d genetic is individual, after the 'choice'.

[native]

ra tells us we are using 3d bodies. not 2d bodies. the cellular structure being of 2d entities, does not make a body 2d it seems.

I think ultimately a base material simply needs to be provided. Who mates with who may be irrelevant (in terms of whether or not a higher concentration of 4d material is present) as long as there is 4d material available...whatever any of that means. I'm no 4d genetic expert.

Ultimately we know that the source of what is actually creating the change comes from elsewhere, so the instreamings and the spirit complex are really responsible for creating the change, and the mating process is simply for the purpose of giving birth to new bodies.