In regards to eating meat

[Bring4th_Austin]

Here in Texas, the term redneck is used by non-rednecks in a derogatory way, to refer to narrow-minded, beer-drinking, pickup-truck-driving bigots, who usually aren't farmers at all.

It's worn with a badge of pride here...they're proud to be narrow-minded, beer-drinking, pickup-truck-driving bigots. Not all conventional farmers are this way, but most aren't a long shot from it.

[drifting pages]

Well i would guess that if they don't like the way animals are killed, they will buy mouses or birds or small animals and give them to their pets so they can kill them themselves ? I don't know.

Animal ration is made of all sorts of parts of animals we kill in ways vegetarians and others find abhorrent.

I watched a video on YouTube where i guy had a snake and he fed her with live habits, what else could he do....

[Shemaya]

What do vegetarians feed their pets?

My cat food has chicken, chicken meal, dried egg product, salmon meal, chicken fat, and lots of veggies, berries and supplements, spirulina, herbs, brown rice, potato protein... that's the dry stuff.

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Well i would guess that if they don't like the way animals are killed, they will buy mouses or birds or small animals and give them to their pets so they can kill them themselves ? I don't know.

Animal ration is made of all sorts of parts of animals we kill in ways vegetarians and others find abhorrent.

I watched a video on YouTube where i guy had a snake and he fed her with live habits, what else could he do....

Either that or there might be some cognitive dissonance within a stance of moral superiority.

Still, there's probably at least 101 ways to rationalize it.

My respect and admiration to all the vegetarians out there....would be my choice too if I lived alone and did not spend so much time with my family or have health requirements that are met best with animal protein.

Question: don't have a dehydrator, will my lowest setting on my oven ruin raw food that I am drying?
And if so what is the actual loss, enzymes only or lots of the nutrition?

[Bring4th_Austin]

What do vegetarians feed their pets?

I have some vegetarian customers who buy meat from me to feed to their pets. It's obviously very pricey for pet food. I suppose it's the same concept as the human food production system: you can be as involved as you want, depending on your motivation.

[Shemaya]

What do vegetarians feed their pets?

I have some vegetarian customers who buy meat from me to feed to their pets. It's obviously very pricey for pet food. I suppose it's the same concept as the human food production system: you can be as ignorant or as involved as you want, depending on your motivation.

Sounds like another market to expand your business

I guess for 1 or 2 pets, the high price is doable, but with many pets, it would be cost prohibitive for most people. I have 3 pets and 3 kids, so it's out of my reach, plus there is nil chance of agreement on that matter with the others in my shared household.

[Monica]

What do vegetarians feed their pets?

This has been discussed previously in this thread.

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My respect and admiration to all the vegetarians out there...

Thank you!

Question: don't have a dehydrator, will my lowest setting on my oven ruin raw food that I am drying?
And if so what is the actual loss, enzymes only or lots of the nutrition?

Enzymes are lost. There is some dispute about the precise temperature that enzymes are lost, but it's somewhere around 115-125. Anything higher than that, the enzymes are killed. Nutrients are also lost, but I'm not sure what temperature that happens at. When enzymes are killed, the body's ability to utilize nutrients is impaired.

This is why raw vegans typically report better health, greater energy and vitality; their bodies are absorbing and utilizing more nutrients than with cooked food.

Enzymes are like spark plugs. You might think of them as the lifeforce. As Edgar Cayce said: death begets death, life begets life.

[Diana]

The threat doesn't have to be from a suppressed sense of guilt. There are plenty of other reasons to feel threatened. Someone who feels an innate sense of judgement from a vegetarian isn't necessarily feeling the judgement because they themselves are guilty about eating meat (even though that is very possible). A lot of people care what anyone thinks about them in any context, and vegetarianism can easily be viewed by a non-vegetarian as a self-proclaimed superior point of view. Also, alternative lifestyles or just being different in any way can rouse emotion as well, it doesn't really matter what the context is.

I have been vegetarian since 1993, so I have a lot of experience with this. I have never been a "preacher." Although I share information if someone asks. (This thread is an example, as the question was asked.)

What I have found, countless, countless times, is that as soon as the fact comes out that I'm vegetarian, the most common reaction--whether obvious or subtle--is defensiveness. This is a result of me saying nothing about it at all beyond the bare fact. It got so bad that my boyfriend, who also went vegetarian at the same time, didn't want me even to say the word in public, he got so much flack.

It is similar, but not so emotional as vegetarianism, when I tell people I don't have a TV. (It comes out when people talk about shows I have never heard of.) Defensiveness is the most common reaction. The people who do not react with defensiveness, are in my opinion, the more indoctrinated types (I don't mean to stereotype, but some people are just less awake and susceptible to media).

One point I would like to make. In this time frame, we do have worldwide reach with information. The information is out there, although admittedly, the amount of information makes it confusing. Slaughterhouses, health, sustainability, are not subjects that people are ignorant of anymore. Perhaps this is a factor in the defensiveness I see.

[Monica]

vegetarianism can easily be viewed by a non-vegetarian as a self-proclaimed superior point of view. A

I have been vegetarian since 1993, so I have a lot of experience with this. I have never been a "preacher." Although I share information if someone asks. (This thread is an example, as the question was asked.)

What I have found, countless, countless times, is that as soon as the fact comes out that I'm vegetarian, the most common reaction--whether obvious or subtle--is defensiveness. This is a result of me saying nothing about it at all beyond the bare fact. It got so bad that my boyfriend, who also went vegetarian at the same time, didn't want me even to say the word in public, he got so much flack.

This has happened to me countless times. I didn't say a word to them. All I did was order something vegetarian from the menu, and they start up with their defensiveness or crude jokes about me mowing their lawn.

So the question is: WHY do they perceive vegetarians as having a 'self-proclaimed superior point of view'?

I can understand if the vegetarian is preaching at them. But in most cases, we haven't done that at all. All we did was order the veggie burger.

Here are some possibilities:

1. They've been preached at before, and now are stereotyping all vegetarians, to the point that they're expecting preaching and are preempting it...lumping them all in together as having a 'self-proclaimed superior point of view.'

2. They are feeling guilt because, as Diana pointed out, they really are aware of the suffering of animals and are choosing to contribute to it anyway. But rather than confront their own guilt, they use the vegetarian as a scapegoat.

3. They really do think vegetarianism is a 'superior' lifestyle, but are too weak-willed to do it themselves, so they're jealous of those who do it. And when people are jealous, they say hurtful things.

One point I would like to make. In this time frame, we do have worldwide reach with information. The information is out there, although admittedly, the amount of information makes it confusing. Slaughterhouses, health, sustainability, are not subjects that people are ignorant of anymore. Perhaps this is a factor in the defensiveness I see.

You're right. I keep trying to give them the benefit of the doubt..."Maybe they just aren't aware of it" but you're right: most of them are quite aware; they just have cognitive dissonance, apparently.

You know what I have the hardest time accepting? Being admonished for 'preaching' or 'proselytizing.' Even though I don't go around doing that, but only talk about it if asked or if the person is seeking dietary advice. I DO support animal rights activism financially, but I haven't been to a picketing in many many years. I mostly just post info on Facebook, and of course I have my bumperstickers. (How can you be pro-life and eat dead animals? and Love animals. Don't eat them.)

If anything, I am guilty of not doing enough for the movement. And yet, I get lumped in with 'proselytizers' as though that were such a bad thing.

Of all the possible insights readers of this thread might get from it, among the most important, in my opinion, is that vegetarians speak out because we're championing the oppressed, not because we're trying to 'control' others.

If meat-eaters could grasp that, we could accomplish a lot towards understanding.

[Shemaya]

Monica, I think your last post was kind of mean, ie. "hurtful". I eat meat, probably mostly because I am "weak-willed" (by another's judgement perhaps), but I have had many other battles to fight, and this is one more that I haven't chosen to take on this lifetime.

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I don't think I've ever been "preached to" by vegetarians. The very few I have met in person have been humble and great people, but I am finding reading this particular thread catalyzing, ie. invoking frustration and anger in me because I understand that unless you are completely off the grid and not participating in modern day society, you are supporting an oppressive societal system in some way. So as awakened beings, we are all basically cognitively dissonant on some level because we are living here in 3D.

But at any rate, it's not going to convince anyone to "change their ways" of conditioned and cultural food choices by implying that they are "less" than yourself in any way (weak-willed, jealous,cognitively dissonant)

Every day I fill my pets food bowl, I do so with love and care for them....I'm am not thinking of the factory-farm industry that I am supporting by purchasing pet food.

Same thing when I put gas in my car or or buy clothing from Target. We live in vast oppressive matrix/system that basically causes harm to those who are "weak" by the stronger. I could choose any number of causes if I was called to activism to advocate for the oppressed.

I am just saying that I find reading this thread not helpful at all in convincing me that I should not eat meat. The cognitive dissonance not only goes both ways, but is very deeply embedded in the matrix.

[Monica]

Monica, I think your last post was kind of mean, ie. "hurtful". I eat meat, probably mostly because I am "weak-willed" (by another's judgement perhaps), but I have had many other battles to fight, and this is one more that I haven't chosen to take on this lifetime.

I apologize for unintentionally hurting you. But the fact is, that it IS a matter of weak will. I am guilty of it to, in other areas. Sometimes after a stressful day, it's easier for me to have a glass of wine and a bit of cheese to knock me out. I've had trouble with insomnia over the years. It doesn't happen as much as it used to, but sometimes, if I'm stressed, I can't sleep, and the ONLY thing that makes me sleep is a glass of wine a a bit of cheese!

I buy organic, hormone-free cheese. I justify it because it's "not as bad as eating meat" and I "need" it to sleep, because I have a demo in the morning and I need to be "up."

But the fact is, that if I had had a strong enough will to exercise regularly every morning (instead of spending time here at B4!) and do my yoga at night, then I would probably sleep better, and wouldn't need those crutches.

Because that is what it is: a crutch. It's something I want to get rid of, but I still struggle with sometimes. I don't crave it. I don't even like it anymore. I just want to SLEEP!

But see, I'm still justifying too. I don't claim to be perfect! I quit eating meat 30 years ago, but that doesn't mean my diet and lifestyle are perfect. They're not. We all have our struggles. Vegetarians aren't exempt from that.

So when I say weak-willed, I include myself in that. I don't struggle with meat - it's doesn't even register as edible to me - but I have other struggles, as we all do. And you aren't alone in having other struggles.

It wasn't directed at anyone personally. But it is what it is. It's a fact that what it really boils down to is weakness of will. That wasn't intended to be mean; it is simply stating the nature of the 'battle' because the only 'battle' is with will...with choice.

Incidentally, you say you haven't chosen to take on this "battle" in this lifetime. And yet, here you are reading this thread.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Here are some possibilities:

1. They've been preached at before, and now are stereotyping all vegetarians, to the point that they're expecting preaching and are preempting it...lumping them all in together as having a 'self-proclaimed superior point of view.'

2. They are feeling guilt because, as Diana pointed out, they really are aware of the suffering of animals and are choosing to contribute to it anyway. But rather than confront their own guilt, they use the vegetarian as a scapegoat.

3. They really do think vegetarianism is a 'superior' lifestyle, but are too weak-willed to do it themselves, so they're jealous of those who do it. And when people are jealous, they say hurtful things.

I suppose those are all possibilities. I have been preached at before plenty of times, as a consumer and producer. I've not had a single vegan friend who didn't make some snide remark at least once as I was eating meat.

But the heart of the matter: "So the question is: WHY do they perceive vegetarians as having a 'self-proclaimed superior point of view'?"

The reasons for being vegetarian are far-reaching, but I've never been in a discussion with a vegetarian who was doing it just for health reasons. It's normally along the lines of "I think eating meat is wrong." It's a logical train of thought, in my mind, to go from "I think eating meat is wrong." "You eat meat." "Something you do is wrong, and I am right." While vegetarians may not express moral superiority, it's hard not to imagine that they don't feel morally superior because they find something you do to be immoral.

I'd like to point out my very careful wording when I said that:
"vegetarianism can easily be viewed by a non-vegetarian as a self-proclaimed superior point of view"

One point I would like to make. In this time frame, we do have worldwide reach with information. The information is out there, although admittedly, the amount of information makes it confusing. Slaughterhouses, health, sustainability, are not subjects that people are ignorant of anymore. Perhaps this is a factor in the defensiveness I see.

It's not that simple. It doesn't matter how available the information is, we're still blinded by our own perception. Someone could be surrounded with information on a subject they're not ready to accept (for instance, UFO's) and not readily perceive the reality of the situation. Some people are aware and don't care, or don't have the motivation, or are stuck in dissonance, but that doesn't mean that there aren't ignorant people. There are tons of ignorant and uninformed people still.

Of all the possible insights readers of this thread might get from it, among the most important, in my opinion, is that vegetarians speak out because we're championing the oppressed, not because we're trying to 'control' others.

In this situation, they're the same thing. If I were to work actively to take away your right to eat and feed your family vegetables because millions of beings die from veggie production, picketed a vegetarian get-together accusing them of murder and hypocrisy, and formed organizations with significant financial funding to harass vegetable producers and consumers about the murder that happens in veggie fields, do you feel this is justified out of "championing the oppressed?" All I would be doing, taking this point of view, is trying to protect the plants, bugs, and other animals that are killed through veggie production. I understand that at the root of what you do is the desire to protect, but your discussion and actions are no different in the eyes of meat-eaters than the actions I described above. And if you feel that your actions would be more justified than someone doing these things to vegetarians, juxtapose that against why someone may view vegetarians as feeling morally superior.

[Monica]

I am finding reading this particular thread catalyzing, ie. invoking frustration and anger in me because I understand that unless you are completely off the grid and not participating in modern day society, you are supporting an oppressive societal system in some way. So as awakened beings, we are all basically cognitively dissonant on some level because we are living here in 3D.

But at any rate, it's not going to convince anyone to "change their ways" of conditioned and cultural food choices by implying that they are "less" than yourself in any way (weak-willed, jealous,cognitively dissonant)

I hope my last few statements cleared up the 'weak-willed' thing. No one is implying anyone else is anything. We're discussing this academically. If someone feels defensive while a reading philosophical discussion that isn't directed at them personally, then that's a great illustration of the very thing we're talking about!

Every day I fill my pets food bowl, I do so with love and care for them....I'm am not thinking of the factory-farm industry that I am supporting by purchasing pet food.

Well that's just it...people aren't thinking about it. That's the whole point. Why aren't they thinking about it? Isn't that the whole point of waking up? to be aware of what we're doing here?

Same thing when I put gas in my car or or buy clothing from Target. We live in vast oppressive matrix/system that basically causes harm to those who are "weak" by the stronger. I could choose any number of causes if I was called to activism to advocate for the oppressed.

That's right. So much to do...so little time. (sigh)

I am just saying that I find reading this thread not helpful at all in convincing me that I should not eat meat.

1. Have you read the whole thread?

2. Why are your reading this thread?

The cognitive dissonance not only goes both ways, but is very deeply embedded in the matrix.

Not sure what you mean here.

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I've not had a single vegan friend who didn't make some snide remark at least once as I was eating meat.

Austin, I find that hard to believe. Being that I never make snide remarks unless provoked by the meat-eater's snide remarks, I'm sure I'm not the only one. Diana said the same thing. We just don't go around making snide remarks. We just don't. Surely there are other vegans out there who don't make snide remarks. I'm incredulous that you haven't encountered any.

But the heart of the matter: "So the question is: WHY do they perceive vegetarians as having a 'self-proclaimed superior point of view'?"

The reasons for being vegetarian are far-reaching, but I've never been in a discussion with a vegetarian who was doing it just for health reasons. It's normally along the lines of "I think eating meat is wrong." It's a logical train of thought, in my mind, to go from "I think eating meat is wrong." "You eat meat." "Something you do is wrong, and I am right." While vegetarians may not express moral superiority, it's hard not to imagine that they don't feel morally superior because they find something you do to be immoral.

Well, we're dancing around the elephant in the room.

Do I dare say it? No, I can't. I'll catch all sorts of flack if I say it.

But there's an elephant in the room.

I'd like to point out my very careful wording when I said that:
"vegetarianism can easily be viewed by a non-vegetarian as a self-proclaimed superior point of view"

Yes, I caught that, which is why I said I agreed with the gist of what you said in that post.

It's not that simple. It doesn't matter how available the information is, we're still blinded by our own perception. Someone could be surrounded with information on a subject they're not ready to accept (for instance, UFO's) and not readily perceive the reality of the situation. Some people are aware and don't care, or don't have the motivation, or are stuck in dissonance, but that doesn't mean that there aren't ignorant people. There are tons of ignorant and uninformed people still.

True.

In this situation, they're the same thing. If I were to work actively to take away your right to eat and feed your family vegetables because millions of beings die from veggie production, picketed a vegetarian get-together accusing them of murder and hypocrisy, and formed organizations with significant financial funding to harass vegetable producers and consumers about the murder that happens in veggie fields, do you feel this is justified out of "championing the oppressed?" All I would be doing, taking this point of view, is trying to protect the plants, bugs, and other animals that are killed through veggie production. I understand that at the root of what you do is the desire to protect, but your discussion and actions are no different in the eyes of meat-eaters than the actions I described above. And if you feel that your actions would be more justified than someone doing these things to vegetarians, juxtapose that against why someone may view vegetarians as feeling morally superior.

The outcome might be the same, but the motivation is different.

You are focused on the outcome. I am referring to the motivation.

We aren't motivated by trying to control others. We are motivated by the desire to champion the oppressed.

That is the point.

In addition, we don't even want to control anyone. The goal is to awaken people to the horrors of the slaughterhouse, so that they willingly want to reduce suffering, just as many people willingly have quit oppressing humans. We shouldn't need laws to accomplish that. No one is suggesting that we go about this via legislation. No one is suggesting that anyone be 'controlled' legally. We're just trying to inform and educate.

Edit: Are we all being 'controlled' because slavery is no longer legal?

[Shemaya]

I've been vegetarian for a year or more, but when my hemoglobin was down to 7.9, my doctor advised me to eat meat. At that point, since there was no support in my life whatsover to be vegetarian, I gave it up. If I was in a family of vegans, the story would end differently. Sure, if I had a very strong will regarding this choice, and I applied myself more to it, it might work.

Besides , I have yet to meet one perfect person.

My main point is, people who eat meat do so for a myriad of reasons, and discussions of food choices because it is such a volatile topic for some, would be better without the character judgments.

I admit, I took offense when I read "cognitive dissonance" "weak-willed" and "jealous", I know it wasn't personally directed at me but it seemed generally directed at those who eat meat.

[Monica]

I've been vegetarian for a year or more, but when my hemoglobin was down to 7.9, my doctor advised me to eat meat.

I'm sorry to hear you were given incorrect advice. Typically, doctors aren't very knowledgeable about diet. It isn't necessary to eat meat to get hemoglobin up. There are ways to do that with vegetarian sources.

Besides , I have yet to meet one perfect person.

Well, as the saying goes, Jesus was supposedly perfect, and look what they did to him!

My main point is, people who eat meat do so for a myriad of reasons, and discussions of food choices because it is such a volatile topic for some, would be better without the character judgments.

I admit, I took offense when I read "cognitive dissonance" "weak-willed" and "jealous", I know it wasn't personally directed at me but it seemed generally directed at those who eat meat.

It's very difficult to discuss volatile topics without using words that someone 'might' be offended by! That's why they're called volatile!

Awhile back, in another thread, I made a very academic, dry statement about childhood cancer statistics being on the rise. Guess what? A couple of people got offended because "there might be members who had children with cancer."

We're all trying to be considerate and sensitive, but we have to remember that this is a volatile topic. And, if we feel a strong reaction to something someone says, there is something in it for us to examine.

[Diana]

So the question is: WHY do they perceive vegetarians as having a 'self-proclaimed superior point of view'?

I can understand if the vegetarian is preaching at them. But in most cases, we haven't done that at all. All we did was order the veggie burger.

Here are some possibilities:

1. They've been preached at before, and now are stereotyping all vegetarians, to the point that they're expecting preaching and are preempting it...lumping them all in together as having a 'self-proclaimed superior point of view.'

2. They are feeling guilt because, as Diana pointed out, they really are aware of the suffering of animals and are choosing to contribute to it anyway. But rather than confront their own guilt, they use the vegetarian as a scapegoat.

3. They really do think vegetarianism is a 'superior' lifestyle, but are too weak-willed to do it themselves, so they're jealous of those who do it. And when people are jealous, they say hurtful things.

I will add two to this list:

4) They are good people who mean well, but they are overwhelmed with all that has to be done in this modern-day life. Considering the topic of responsible diet is just too much for them on top of everything else, especially since certain food producers make it so easy to eat "irresponsibly," and advertising lies to the public all the time.

So they know consciously that they would be wise to pay attention, but they keep it at bay. When faced with a vegetarian, it brings the subject to the surface, and they feel their own sense of irresponsibility.

5) They know something at the subconscious level, which has not become conscious yet. We most likely all keep parts of ourselves "asleep" until we can handle them.

For instance, we may keep certain past (parallel, multidimensional) life memories at bay due to the fact that we could not handle what we have done. Another instance: we may have had childhood traumas which were encapsulated and kept frozen because we could not deal with them, yet they trigger us nonetheless.

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I've not had a single vegan friend who didn't make some snide remark at least once as I was eating meat.

I guess you don't have very nice friends.

On the inverse, I know many meat-eaters who are so kind as to ask if their eating meat at a meal bothers me. I'm not sure what they would say if I said "yes," as I never have. But it is kind and sensitive for them to ask.

[Shemaya]

I am finding reading this particular thread catalyzing, ie. invoking frustration and anger in me because I understand that unless you are completely off the grid and not participating in modern day society, you are supporting an oppressive societal system in some way. So as awakened beings, we are all basically cognitively dissonant on some level because we are living here in 3D.

But at any rate, it's not going to convince anyone to "change their ways" of conditioned and cultural food choices by implying that they are "less" than yourself in any way (weak-willed, jealous,cognitively dissonant)

I hope my last few statements cleared up the 'weak-willed' thing. No one is implying anyone else is anything. We're discussing this academically. If someone feels defensive while a reading philosophical discussion that isn't directed at them personally, then that's a great illustration of the very thing we're talking about!

I didn't feel defensive, and feeling offended is a normal reaction. It's not the philosophy or academic info that offends but words such as "weak-willed", and jealous" sound accusatory. The implication is basically denigration of people who eat meat in general, not me personally, but I happen to eat meat.

Well that's just it...people aren't thinking about it. That's the whole point. Why aren't they thinking about it? Isn't that the whole point of waking up? to be aware of what we're doing here?

They may have a bunch of other things that they are choosing to focus their will and intent on. What do you feed your pets?

I am just saying that I find reading this thread not helpful at all in convincing me that I should not eat meat.

1. Have you read the whole thread?

2. Why are your reading this thread?

I have read alot of this thread, not all, probably need a few hours. It's not the academic information offered that most affects me when reading the thread, but the interaction in the discussion. In light of Bring4th guidelines, I find that there does seem to be an undercurrent of disrespect in the thread for the choice of eating meat. And it bothered me so I spoke up. It seemed worthwhile to address what I was feeling openly on the forum.

The cognitive dissonance not only goes both ways, but is very deeply embedded in the matrix.

Not sure what you mean here.

I am saying that anyone who is awakening and continuing to support and give energy to anything that oppresses any being in this consensus reality, is having a level of cognitive dissonance happening. Unless there is a complete withdrawal from the system as it is, we are participating in oppression of another being. So whether you make animals, or child-labor in third world countries, or abortion your "cause", on another level you are being cognitively dissonant about something unless you completely withdraw from society as it is. As you said there is only so much one can do. So if we are all cognitively dissonant, why accuse one another , why not just be humble.

[Diana]

My main point is, people who eat meat do so for a myriad of reasons, and discussions of food choices because it is such a volatile topic for some, would be better without the character judgments.

I admit, I took offense when I read "cognitive dissonance" "weak-willed" and "jealous", I know it wasn't personally directed at me but it seemed generally directed at those who eat meat.

I don't think any offense was meant. Character observations are appropriate when trying to discern behavior, I would think.

I don't get offended if someone calls vegetarians "superior" or "pushy" or "militant." I will just point out that some may be, but I am not. This is good for discussion, as we explore all facets. Your individual view is valued as such--individual. Especially here, at this site, where members really care about the implications of what we do.

[Shemaya]

My main point is, people who eat meat do so for a myriad of reasons, and discussions of food choices because it is such a volatile topic for some, would be better without the character judgments.

I admit, I took offense when I read "cognitive dissonance" "weak-willed" and "jealous", I know it wasn't personally directed at me but it seemed generally directed at those who eat meat.

I don't think any offense was meant. Character observations are appropriate when trying to discern behavior, I would think.

I don't get offended if someone calls vegetarians "superior" or "pushy" or "militant." I will just point out that some may be, but I am not. This is good for discussion, as we explore all facets. Your individual view is valued as such--individual. Especially here, at this site, where members really care about the implications of what we do.

My personal feelings really don't matter, they are mine to work with. I only held them up here on the forum as a mirror.

I brought it up because I think it doesn't follow the bring4th guidelines, being as there are probably a few members of the forum who eat meat. If you are posting on a vegan website, you'd probably get agreement regarding the weak-willed, jealous meat-eaters.

In a nutshell, I think the level of discourse on this topic can go up a notch and reflect more respect, just my opinion. I have basically avoided reading the whole thread and distilling the great info offered, because the other content is quite distracting, and offensive sometimes.

[Monica]

I didn't feel defensive, and feeling offended is a normal reaction. It's not the philosophy or academic info that offends but words such as "weak-willed", and jealous" sound accusatory. The implication is basically denigration of people who eat meat in general, not me personally, but I happen to eat meat.

Those are words to describe normal human emotions that we all feel from time to time. I confess to feeling a bit of momentary jealousy if I see a super slim, ultrafit woman who has the luxury of doing 2 hours of yoga per day. I just don't have the time to do that. But feeling jealous is really pointless, because I could do 2 hours of yoga per day too, if I rearranged my priorities. So after that initial twinge, I realized that only *I* am responsible for myself and my choices.

Nevertheless, I am human and admit to occasional twinges of said emotion. Just being honest here. Nothing to feel offended about, since we are all human. We are having a discussion about human feelings as well as failings, so it's difficult to discuss these without using words such as these, when trying to understand why people make the choices they do.

They may have a bunch of other things that they are choosing to focus their will and intent on.

We all have a bunch of other things to deal with.

What do you feed your pets?

Shemaya, this question seems a little odd, at this point. Are you trying to trap me in a contradiction or hypocrisy?

I'm not evading your question. I already answered it, previously in this thread. In great detail. I don't have time to repeat what's already been said.

I have read alot of this thread, not all, probably need a few hours. It's not the academic information offered that most affects me when reading the thread, but the interaction in the discussion. In light of Bring4th guidelines, I find that there does seem to be an undercurrent of disrespect in the thread for the choice of eating meat. And it bothered me so I spoke up. It seemed worthwhile to address what I was feeling openly on the forum.

Did you happen to also notice the undercurrent of disrespect towards vegetarians?

We notice what we wish to notice, because of our biases. If anything, the vegetarians have been walking on eggshells all along, going out of our way to not offend. It's impossible to avoid completely, because of the subject matter.

For the most part, the vegetarians have restricted discussion to the academic and philosophical implications of killing animals; whereas, in multiple instances, meat-eaters have actually called vegetarians derogatory names (fanatic, zealot, hypocrite, holier-than-thou, sickly, self-righteous, controlling, manipulative, even STS and Nazi...and others). I don't recall any vegetarian ever calling any meat-eater by any derogatory name in this thread. So if anything, I think there has been much more disrespect expressed towards the vegetarians.

To be fair. But we're not having a contest.

I am saying that anyone who is awakening and continuing to support and give energy to anything that oppresses any being in this consensus reality, is having a level of cognitive dissonance happening. Unless there is a complete withdrawal from the system as it is, we are participating in oppression of another being. So whether you make animals, or child-labor in third world countries, or abortion your "cause", on another level you are being cognitively dissonant about something unless you completely withdraw from society as it is. As you said there is only so much one can do. So if we are all cognitively dissonant, why accuse one another , why not just be humble.

Firstly, I disagree completely that if we continue to participate in society we're cognitively dissonant.

cognitive dissonance 
noun Psychology .
anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or otherwise incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like, as when one likes a person but disapproves strongly of one of his or her habits.

I personally don't feel anxiety about eating meat, because I simply don't eat meat. I don't feel anxiety about driving my car, because it's necessary to function in this society. I try to make up for it as much as possible, by being as active as I can, in ways that can make a difference.

Cognitive dissonance arises when people are aware of something, but don't act on it. Their actions are incongruent with their beliefs or feelings, but they do it anyway. In other words, they ignore their conscience. That is what causes the anxiety.

[Diana]

I am saying that anyone who is awakening and continuing to support and give energy to anything that oppresses any being in this consensus reality, is having a level of cognitive dissonance happening. Unless there is a complete withdrawal from the system as it is, we are participating in oppression of another being. So whether you make animals, or child-labor in third world countries, or abortion your "cause", on another level you are being cognitively dissonant about something unless you completely withdraw from society as it is. As you said there is only so much one can do. So if we are all cognitively dissonant, why accuse one another , why not just be humble.

These are good points.

One can have a goal in mind: living a life whereby no harm is done. I read somewhere in a channeling from some ET source, that in their culture on their planet, they utilized telekinesis to lift themselves slightly from the grasses so they caused no harm. This is out of our present reach, however, to have an end-goal in mind, one takes conscious steps toward it. This requires awareness.

This is what information is for, and information is not just dry academic facts; information includes the feelings and well-being of other-selves. This is partly what proponents of elimination of meat-eating are trying to get across.

Humility is advisable. As you say, no one is perfect, yet perfection is not the goal. Integrity in living would be a goal closer to what I endeavor to do.

[Shemaya]

Thanks Monica, so my anxiety is because I live in 3D, hahaha. You're funny, but thank you for giving me a greater understanding of myself. It's starting to make sense now.

Of course I noticed in other parts of the thread what the discourse felt like, doesn't feel good on either side. Hence , my reluctance to read through the whole thing.

[Monica]

I brought it up because I think it doesn't follow the bring4th guidelines,

What doesn't?

being as there are probably a few members of the forum who eat meat.

Haha, the majority of forum members do eat meat! We are the minority here.

If you are posting on a vegan website, you'd probably get agreement regarding the weak-willed, jealous meat-eaters.

I really think you're blowing those comments out of proportion and losing the context.

In a nutshell, I think the level of discourse on this topic can go up a notch and reflect more respect, just my opinion. I have basically avoided reading the whole thread and distilling the great info offered, because the other content is quite distracting, and offensive sometimes.

Again I'm wondering whether you noticed disrespect going in both directions, or did you perceive disrespect only from the vegetarians?

Often, what we perceive as disrespect, is something that's uncomfortable because of our own distortions.

(Yikes, I hope no one takes offense to me saying we all have distortions!)

[Shemaya]

Of course I noticed in other parts of the thread what the discourse felt like, doesn't feel good on either side. Hence , my reluctance to read through the whole thing.

[Monica]

Thanks Monica, so my anxiety is because I live in 3D, hahaha. You're funny, but thank you for giving me a greater understanding of myself. It's starting to make sense now.

Hmmm...I'm not quite sure how to take that! :-/

Of course I noticed in other parts of the thread what the discourse felt like, doesn't feel good on either side. Hence , my reluctance to read through the whole thing.

Yeah, it's been rather grueling! If you felt that way just reading, can you imagine how we felt, those who were participating? It's been intense sometimes.

But, as Diana pointed out, there is a vast richness of keen insight offered, by all the participants. It really is worth reading. We delved into some heavy concepts, and honed our understanding of Ra's words. There has been an enormous amount of spiritual discussion. It hasn't just been bickering over who's the purest of us all!

[Diana]

Of course I noticed in other parts of the thread what the discourse felt like, doesn't feel good on either side. Hence , my reluctance to read through the whole thing.

I think you are describing catalyst here. Why avoid it? 3D life is not all light and love. We need to work through our imbalances. Catalyst is the, well, catalyst.

[Shemaya]

Of course it's catalyst...maybe me speaking up about it will catalyze otherselves to be more respectful in dialogue with others of different opinions, maybe not. It's all catalyst.

[Monica]

Of course it's catalyst...maybe me speaking up about it will catalyze otherselves to be more respectful in dialogue with others of different opinions, maybe not. It's all catalyst.

There is always room for improvement, for all of us. Feedback is good.

Please know that there is so much more the vegetarians could say, but don't. No one has posted any graphic slaughterhouse videos, for example. Why? It's factual. It happens every day, to the tune of millions of animals being tortured and brutally slaughtered. Why not post what is true?

But if we did that, we'd be hung up by our toes! The outcry would reverberate all the way to Venus and the rings of Saturn!

We are already softening our words dramatically. We will continue to strive for better choice of words. As I said, all of us can improve.

[3DMonkey]

Sweethearts, there is nothing moral about eating. Period. Fact.

Love to all s

[Shemaya]

Sweethearts, there is nothing moral about eating. Period. Fact.

Love to all s

You are so right, this is your post number 4477.

However, I will assert the moral superiority of yoga. j/k

77:Wise counsel, body as temple, mystical powers in action, purity in mind, body and spirit, Master Mystic, loving detachment, holy emptiness, turning away from the masses and towards Spirit, Presence, conscious union with God, mystical marriage, electricity of Awakening, universal intelligence.

44:Impeccability, desire with insight, wisdom with reason, intensity, conviction, adeptship, heroism, self-control, discipline, controlled energy focussed.

Monkey, you are the resident sage!

[Tenet Nosce]

How about if each were to learn how to listen to the innate wisdom of their bodies as regards the appropriateness of certain foods?