A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet

[Patrick]

I would like to know more about the ways we could do away completely with animal products.

What sort of supplements are needed ? Or are there foodstuff that can fully replace all animal products for all humans ?

Thank you in advance my friends.

http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=519

Thank you.

So Amaranth for complete protein, low-salt yeast extract for B12, ground flaxseed for Omega 3, seaweeds such as kelp for Vit K and Iodine and Sun for Vit D.

Seems simple enough.

Incidentally, I have some golden giant amaranth growing in my garden this summer.

---

I found this info here particularly informative: http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/nu...ldren.aspx

[Diana]

I would like to know more about the ways we could do away completely with animal products.

What sort of supplements are needed ? Or are there foodstuff that can fully replace all animal products for all humans ?

Thank you in advance my friends.

Patrick,

First, you can check out this thread, in which the first post by Monica introduces how to transition easily:
Vegetarianism made E-Z

I have been strictly vegetarian for 19 years. I have not found I had to supplement with anything because of being vegetarian. I follow intuition and messages from my body and higher self, as anyone would do on any diet, due to specific individual needs which come up.

I will say, however, that I have always been interested in eating healthily. The bottom line is feeding the body with the highest quality sustenance. This in turn feeds the mind, and spirit. The intention of wanting the highest and healthiest sustenance, in the highest harmony with all life, will guide you.

I have told this before but it is relevant here: a friend of mine who professionally wrestled (TV WWF sort), was a huge, muscly body-builder after being raw vegan for many years. He is also spiritually oriented and a devoted meditator. Let me add that he was extremely healthy looking in every way. He no longer wrestles, but still maintains the body-building. He did not take any supplements at all that I recall. He even maintained that he got most of his water from the raw foods he was eating.

So you see, regardless of what the media, experts, and those opposed to a plant-based diet say, there need be no worries. If you were stranded on an island where only fruits and roots were available--you would thrive.

There are possible cleansing reactions as the body rids itself of the effects of meat (and all toxic foods in general) physically, emotionally, and energetically. This is to be expected. You can assist the cleansing process with good water, cleansing herbs (used in many colon-cleansing formulas), liver-toning herbs such as Milk Thistle, and kidney supporting herbs and foods.

[Monica]

Thank you.

You're welcome.

So Amaranth for complete protein, low-salt yeast extract for B12, ground flaxseed for Omega 3, seaweeds such as kelp for Vit K and Iodine and Sun for Vit D.

If you eat eggs or dairy, you don't need to worry about B12. If you don't eat eggs or dairy, it's advisable to take a supplement. B12 is the only nutrient that is unreliable in the vegan diet; therefore supplementation is advised.

Seems simple enough.

It really is!

More on protein:

http://vegetarian.about.com/od/healthnut...rotein.htm

http://www.savvyvegetarian.com/articles/...g-diet.php

http://www.rodale.com/vegetarian-protein-sources

Incidentally, I have some golden giant amaranth growing in my garden this summer.

Cool! The leaves are edible too.

[Patrick]

I am looking at it from the perspective of a vegan who would not have access to any supplements and who is pregnant. With what I listed, this mother and her baby should have all that is needed without any animals in the equation. I find this a bit surprising (a good surprise of course).

[Monica]

I am looking at it from the perspective of a vegan who would not have access to any supplements and who is pregnant. With what I listed, this mother and her baby should have all that is needed without any animals in the equation. I find this a bit surprising (a good surprise of course).

Pregnancy, Children, and the Vegan Diet by Dr. Michael Klaper MD

New Vegetarian Baby by Sharon K. Yntema (My story is quoted in this book, by the way)

The Vegetarian Mother and Baby Book: Completely Revised and Updated by Rose Elliot

Vegetarian Children: How to Raise a Happy, Healthy, Caring Child by Sharon Yntema

Baby Greens: A Live-Food Approach for Children of All Ages by Michaela Lynn

And this book looks great but dang it's expensive!

Evie's Kitchen: Raising an Ecstatic Child by Shazzie

[Diana]

With the opening of the Health and Diet forum, we also re-open the temporarily closed discussion titled, In Regards to Eating Meat.

However, the discussion will take place in the course of a new thread, titled, A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet. The old thread, In Regards to Eating Meat will remain closed and archived for reference purposes.

Although I respect the B4 admin's point of view regarding this subject, I think this direction is a well-meant mistake. For any conflict to resolve itself, it must surface. To sugarcoat it only puts a frozen sheet of ice over the lake of conflict.

I feel it needs to be said that attempts to control in this manner not only violate free will (bearing in mind that guidelines be respected), but also undermine resolution.

-----REVIEW-----
Those of vegetarian orientation have a conviction. Their conviction is, *in general*, that it is better not to consume or slaughter animal flesh, and not to contribute the self's personal energies to the system of that consumption..

Much in the way that most if not all of us feel that compassion is more evolved than hatred, humility more evolved than pride, spiritual seeking more evolved than dogmatic religious indoctrination, and iPods more evolved than 8-tracks, the vegetarians' is an unbending certainty that the path of vegetarianism is more evolved than the path of meat eating. The vegetarians' reasons rest principally on the compassion they feel for the suffering of second-density creatures, along with the benefits they feel that vegetarianism brings for the health of the planet’s biosphere and the health of individuals, among perhaps other reasons.

Those of vegetarian seeking wouldn’t be following this understanding and making it their way of life and communicating so passionately if they didn’t feel it was a higher path. When a conviction is felt and perceived so strongly that one dedicates ones life to its principles, then one feels it be the best choice for the self.

For my part as a vegetarian, I would like to address this review as inaccurate in some ways.

The above language implies an activist stance. I am not an activist, nor have I dedicated my life to this. I simply have evolved past the animal predator/prey need/want for animal flesh. I have evolved to the point where respect of all life--not just human--has permeated my being and influenced every choice I make, not as a choice-by-choice consideration, rather, as a way of life. In saying I have evolved, the implication is that others have not, and in a sense, I suppose this is a real implication. But I do not intend it this way.

Also, I do not think it is the best choice for my "self." This is too focused on "self." The focus on self has created nearly all of humankind's problems (and the problems on this planet). The cessation of meat-eating and the industries which produce it is certainly better for the animal kingdom, it is better for the planet and its resources, it is better for the humans starving in the world, it is better for the evolution to higher consciousness (in my opinion) and on and on. I never made the decision to stop eating meat because it was better for me. I have benefitted from it, but it was never a motivation.

Rather than say it is the best choice for the "self," it would be more accurate to say it is the best choice for "other-selves." For example, if one watches a slaughterhouse video, what is one feeling and thinking? I can only imagine that one is thinking/feeling compassion for the other-self suffering and the results within self from that awareness.

This speaks to a fundamental difference of perspective which surfaced in the "meat thread." For some, free will is the overriding issue, and it can be argued that in 3D it is, regardless of how far self-indulgence takes it. For others, free will is only one channel of experience here, and in addition to this channel is the inclusion of the consideration of other life forms also here, not just the 3D humans (and other 3D creatures such as dolphins).

The use of the shorthand “vegetarians” and “meat-eaters” can save time, but the trap of this is that one loses the distinction between the label and the entity, the entity which is the Creator and perfect as he/she is.

Everything is debatable. All things may be questioned. Are we all perfect as is? Why assume this as fact? Because someone channeled it, or a book expounded it? I am not saying it isn't an ultimate universal truth; I only bring up the idea that everything is a working theory. Even so-called facts can change in an evolving universe.

All is well as is? A universe created around experiences of suffering may be questioned. I question it. Arguments can be made in favor of embracing the shadow; but what is the purpose of this? . . . to bring it into the light. This suggests that light is the evolutionary path. So why wallow in the darkness of self-propelling free will? Why not reach further along the evolutionary path?

[Plenum]

good post Diana.

[Monica]

If only it were labeled correctly...

[Oldern]

Haha, I'd love that Chemi-Cola!

[ocean50]

Wow, thanks Monica, Pickle, Pablisimo and Diana for the index. Great info there!
Monica, did you get my PM? I replied, first time using it for me.

[indolering]

@ Diana:

Being vegetarian benefits the self as well as otherselves and environment. By not participating in animal cruelty and not ingesting animal products one's karma is less, and one's health and one's overall well-being are refined and enhanced. These are real improvements and spiritual indicators which may motivate one to abstain from such practices. Vegetarianism benefits everyone, most notably oneself.

[Monica]

Being vegetarian benefits the self as well as otherselves and environment. By not participating in animal cruelty and not ingesting animal products one's karma is less, and one's health and one's overall well-being are refined and enhanced. These are real improvements and spiritual indicators which may motivate one to abstain from such practices. Vegetarianism benefits everyone, most notably oneself.

I agree with this but would rearrange it a bit:

Vegetarianism benefits everyone, most notably the direct victims (the animals). Benefits to self are bonus.

[indolering]

Being vegetarian benefits the self as well as otherselves and environment. By not participating in animal cruelty and not ingesting animal products one's karma is less, and one's health and one's overall well-being are refined and enhanced. These are real improvements and spiritual indicators which may motivate one to abstain from such practices. Vegetarianism benefits everyone, most notably oneself.

I agree with this but would rearrange it a bit:

Vegetarianism benefits everyone, most notably the direct victims (the animals). Benefits to self are bonus.

I concur. But the benefits to oneself are not insignificant. To reach enlightenment by dint of hard work, discipline and dedication is the fruit of many, many lifetimes, and some would say is the primary purpose of human life. But we're quibbling here; the benefits are manifold for all involved and redound wholly to the Good.

[Monica]

I concur. But the benefits to oneself are not insignificant. To reach enlightenment by dint of hard work, discipline and dedication is the fruit of many, many lifetimes, and some would say is the primary purpose of human life. But we're quibbling here; the benefits are manifold for all involved and redound wholly to the Good.

Agreed! There is no down side to going vegetarian. None.

[indolering]

I concur. But the benefits to oneself are not insignificant. To reach enlightenment by dint of hard work, discipline and dedication is the fruit of many, many lifetimes, and some would say is the primary purpose of human life. But we're quibbling here; the benefits are manifold for all involved and redound wholly to the Good.

Agreed! There is no down side to going vegetarian. None.

Love is a wonderful thing....



But if only you could see them
You would know from their faces
There were kings and queens
Followed by princes and princesses
There were future power people
From the loved to the loveless
Shining a light 'cause they wanted it seen
Well there were cries of why
Followed by cries of why not
Can I
Reach out for you if that feels good to me
And the riders will not stop us
'Cause the only love they'll find is paradise
No the riders will not stop us
'Cause the only love they'll find is paradise
Paradise yeah

Don't you know that racism in amongst future kids
Can only lead to no good
to no good
Besides your sons and daughters
already know how that feels

One day (One day)

All the queens will gather round
Spreading love and unity so it can be found
Well then all the riders say it's all to do with drugs
Well inject me
With your love
Inject me with your love alright

And the riders will not stop us
'Cause the only drug they'll find is paradise
Future love paradise
No the riders will not stop us
'Cause the only love they'll find is paradise
(Future love paradise)

No the riders will not stop us
(paradise)
The only love they'll find is paradise
Paradise yea
(Love paradise)
One in and out is gonna make you feel good
(paradise)
Coming at you like a hurricane would
(paradise)
Stay close to me I'll always be by your side
(Save paradise)
Save it baby you know that it's all right
You remind me of a girl I knew paradise
So beautiful once inside you
(paradise)
You make me feel like I need your love love love
Want to fill me with your love
Fix me with your love all right

And the riders will not stop us
'Cause the only love they'll find is paradise
is paradise
Future love paradise

No the riders will not stop us
'Cause the only drug they'll find is paradise
Oh we'll belivin' in a paradise
The riders will not stop us
'cause the only love they'll find is paradise
(Future love paradise)

They will never make you feel surely
Like you've felt never felt before I'll
Give myself
To you
And if you change your mind
I'll do anything
Just to make the world peaceful
Just to make life wonderful
I will drown all your sorrows
In a future love paradise
Future love paradise
Future love paradise
They will never make you feel surely
Like you've never felt before
I'll
give myself ....

[Plenum]

No the riders will not stop us
'Cause the only drug they'll find is paradise
Oh we'll belivin' in a paradise
The riders will not stop us
'cause the only love they'll find is paradise
(Future love paradise)

this is beautiful indoling.

[Monica]

C'mon admit it...Doesn't this look more appealing than a bloody chicken?

[Patrick]

C'mon admit it...Doesn't this look more appealing than a bloody chicken?

I'll tell you what it looks like. It looks like a lot of work!

Just kidding, it's beautiful!

[Diana]

For anyone consuming dairy products:

I found a cruelty-free milk product in the grocery store (Albertsons) yesterday: Wild Harvest Organic half-and-half (and milk). Their cows live cruelty-free and graze (grass). I only saw the milk and half-and-half, but they apparently also do cheese and other products, which will probably get into the mainstream grocery stores as well.

---

C'mon admit it...Doesn't this look more appealing than a bloody chicken?

Yes, beautiful. I want to try that now.

I have carved the outsides of hollowed-out jicamas with Mayan designs for gazpacho soup bowls.

[Spaced]

I think one of the things I really screwed up on in this incarnation is getting fired from my job at a vegan raw food restaurant The free meals I got were among the best things I've eaten to be sure.

[Monica]

And this book looks great but dang it's expensive!

Evie's Kitchen: Raising an Ecstatic Child by Shazzie

I just got this book - ordered it from the UK - and wow it's beautiful! and jam-packed with great info! I got it to have on hand next time I know someone who's pregnant and veg. I'm glad I got it and highly recommend it! You don't have to have young children to appreciate the yummy recipes!

[Goldenratio]

Confirmed omnivore here, when talking with, or listening to people of assorted and sundry fauna restricted diets one of the words that comes up is "consumption". To me, if it merely referred to the eating of meat, such an... archaic(not sure if this is the right word to use) term denotes some sort of special meaning.

Im familiar with all the numerous reasons and explanations people give as to why they feel it a moral imperative to not eat animals. Out of all of those reasons, about the only that really... calls to me, is the manner in which industrial scale animal agriculture produces its products. One of my goals is to get to the point where near all the meat me and mine eat would have been hunted or otherwise personally harvested by me or mine. Now in the meantime, yeah, I still eat meat. There are a lot of things wrong with our modern system, id like to help push things over to a more responsible way, but im picking my battles so to speak.

I suppose why ive never really given the whole vegetarian thing a serious look, is that its concern for animals seems like the extraordinary length that Jains do in even sweeping the path on which they walk of insects.

[indolering]

Confirmed omnivore here, when talking with, or listening to people of assorted and sundry fauna restricted diets one of the words that comes up is "consumption". To me, if it merely referred to the eating of meat, such an... archaic(not sure if this is the right word to use) term denotes some sort of special meaning.

Im familiar with all the numerous reasons and explanations people give as to why they feel it a moral imperative to not eat animals. Out of all of those reasons, about the only that really... calls to me, is the manner in which industrial scale animal agriculture produces its products. One of my goals is to get to the point where near all the meat me and mine eat would have been hunted or otherwise personally harvested by me or mine. Now in the meantime, yeah, I still eat meat. There are a lot of things wrong with our modern system, id like to help push things over to a more responsible way, but im picking my battles so to speak.

I suppose why ive never really given the whole vegetarian thing a serious look, is that its concern for animals seems like the extraordinary length that Jains do in even sweeping the path on which they walk of insects.

Sweeping the path of insects is extreme. But killing animals and eating rotting corpses when truly nutritious food is available does not fall within the purview of human decency to say nothing of its spiritual influence. Since the slaughter, torture and consumption of animals has been part of human history, we understand men's fascination with the practice and tolerate it. We know, however, that the spiritual path for all positively-oriented entities eventually foregoes the practice as part of the great principle of ahimsa.

[Diana]

I suppose why ive never really given the whole vegetarian thing a serious look, is that its concern for animals seems like the extraordinary length that Jains do in even sweeping the path on which they walk of insects.

This is a poor example. To make an analogy, it is like saying The Ra Material is fundamentalist Christian.

The reasons for eating vegetarian are many. If you have any interest they are explored at length in the thread "In Regards to Eating Meat" and indexed by topics here (scroll down through post to get to it):

index of topics, In Regards to Eating Meat

One fundamental issue you touched upon is the idea that many humans think they are more important or of more value than other life. It is a good topic to explore regarding one's place in existence, and one's connection to all things.

[Monica]

im picking my battles so to speak.

It's true that we can't all do everything. I too believe in "picking my battles." This is one I pick because of the sheer magnitude of it.

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...8#pid62308

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...9#pid62699

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...7#pid83927

I suppose why ive never really given the whole vegetarian thing a serious look, is that its concern for animals seems like the extraordinary length that Jains do in even sweeping the path on which they walk of insects.

I've never met a single vegetarian who sweeps their path. It needn't be an 'all or nothing' proposition.

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...5#pid62605

[Spaced]

What are your opinions on raising animals for food on your own? Me and my partner used to raise chickens before we moved back into the city. We used to play with the chickens and hang out in their coop all the time and their eggs were DELICIOUS! We never killed and ate one, but we both contemplated whether we'd be able to do it

[ocean50]

I think it would be so hard to raise and kill my own animals to eat. I would get attached very quickly. I totally could do the egg thing though. I could see maybe when the animals die naturally one could consider eating them, to kind of honor them in a way.
Actually I think almost everyone would be vegetarian if they had to kill their own food.

[indolering]

I think it would be so hard to raise and kill my own animals to eat. I would get attached very quickly. I totally could do the egg thing though. I could see maybe when the animals die naturally one could consider eating them, to kind of honor them in a way.
Actually I think almost everyone would be vegetarian if they had to kill their own food.

+1.

[Spaced]

Yeah . . . I have to say one of the most traumatizing days in my life came when I was really desperate for money and living out in the country. I took a job at a meat packing plant and I lasted about half a day. The job was to stand on a disassembly line in this super-heated room covered head to toe in protective gear while turkey after turkey came along hooked onto this rail that led back into a different room where the turkeys had been killed by means of boiling them alive and then having their heads and feet cut off. My particular role on that line was to reach up into the bird and grab it's little heart and tear it out along with the lungs. That interspersed with moving bins full of severed turkey feet or heads and mopping blood.

When it came time for lunch I just got my stuff and walked out of the place. Walked the 5 or so km home just not really thinking about anything. I smelled of death . . . When I was trying to get to sleep that night just as I was drifting off I would feel the exact sensation of my hand wrapping around a turkey's heart and I would wake up like a shot. That lasted for a week or more.

Now I think of that whenever I'm eating processed meats and it definitely does not appeal to me as much

[indolering]

Yeah . . . I have to say one of the most traumatizing days in my life came when I was really desperate for money and living out in the country. I took a job at a meat packing plant and I lasted about half a day. The job was to stand on a disassembly line in this super-heated room covered head to toe in protective gear while turkey after turkey came along hooked onto this rail that led back into a different room where the turkeys had been killed by means of boiling them alive and then having their heads and feet cut off. My particular role on that line was to reach up into the bird and grab it's little heart and tear it out along with the lungs. That interspersed with moving bins full of severed turkey feet or heads and mopping blood.

When it came time for lunch I just got my stuff and walked out of the place. Walked the 5 or so km home just not really thinking about anything. I smelled of death . . . When I was trying to get to sleep that night just as I was drifting off I would feel the exact sensation of my hand wrapping around a turkey's heart and I would wake up like a shot. That lasted for a week or more.

Now I think of that whenever I'm eating processed meats and it definitely does not appeal to me as much

Gnarly, dude. I wouldn't have lasted ten minutes.... I've never been to any kind of slaughter house but the descriptions I've read is all I need to know. It's incredible that some people could become so insensitive to the torture of animals.