Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
10-30-2019, 01:14 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-30-2019, 04:56 PM by Glow.)
#1
Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
I have been thinking about this for quite a while and it isn't something most people are interested in looking at but I would love to hear from others who have gone down this path of thought, and how you see it from your perspective.

Current definition - Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.

This makes it sound like people are freely choosing but it on closer inspection truly does not seem to be the case.

It seems like "individual or individuated will" is more accurate.

The more we learn about the brain we learn our choices are anything but free. From day one certain neural pathways become dominant due to our individual experience of life. Everything we experience tips our brain to respond subconsciously making certain thought patterns more likely, and other thought patterns almost unreachable. Over time the experiences we have bias us toward certain behavior that again lead us to situations and perspectives that come about due to the entire history being placed as a lenses over each experience.

Research has shown our subconscious mind makes decisions up to a minute before the conscious mind "thinks" it has decided.
Your subconscious is a collection of all your acquired data to date. Experiences, biases taught, expectations placed upon us, every thing learned via books, experience, time with companions, catalyst etc. Like a computer, data input leads to certain output  = bias, and the decisions are made subconsciously.

So free will as modern society teaches would only start to happen once you accept your inherent unfree will and with that new bias chose to expose your subconscious to biases, experiences and catalyst that will move your subconscious closer to the polarity of bias you deem preferable. Of course it is only your current acquired biases that would still be deciding what new biases you would like to polarize towards. So still not really free will.

It is very interesting but it seems more that we have an individuated will, verse a free one. A focus of will verses the collective will.

This is why judgement upon self or other makes no sense. Until we experience certain things that change our subconscious biases, we can not know better or do better. Forgive them for they know not what they do is appropriate.

Until one knows better one will not be able to do better, the longer we keep doing the same thing the harder it is to change. Polarity is just the culmination of our subconscious, the will that comes from each individuated experience. It is far from free, as free denotes in-coerced , unlimited options. Data in data out.

Knowing this I am "free" to choose what biases I wish to cultivate but again it is only my subconscious that will steer that "choice".
My choice at this time is to expose my subconscious to as much as I can that will steer me towards a peaceful, accepting, positive outlook and see where that might lead my individuated will. In a way I guess it is like programming my catalyst as Ra said we could do.

If others are interested in learning to plan our own catalyst I am thinking of starting a second thread where we could help each other program biases to negate certain thought patterns we hold, and would like to grow beyond, and develop new ones so our biases become more of which we are "choosing". Verses things being presented to us util we have learned what we need to from the universes perspective. Smile
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10-30-2019, 01:58 PM,
#2
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
I believe your understanding is right.



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10-30-2019, 04:13 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-30-2019, 04:56 PM by Glow.)
#3
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
That was awesome!!

Honestly I never even thought of all the biological chemical processes but I often think of a friend who has has had significant intestinal issues their entire life and wonder how the heck they are supposed to climb out of their negative perspective.

90% of serotonin is made in the gut and healthy gut flora also are responsible for other feel good chemicals. This one area of biology alone stacks the deck against them having personal responsibility or true free will. The lack of serotonin is just one tiny biological process adding to their individuated experience.


Think of the billions more going on. Wow. Amazing.
Thanks Rita that adds to my consciousness’s experience. Smile
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10-31-2019, 08:52 AM,
#4
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
We have a very important clue into how the mind works: the Tarot archetypes.

Until the mind has been potentiated, the subconscious is not producing the personally valuable material which can be worked on consciously. Most people are not aware of the catalyst that they are working with (ie experience). When the WILL is focused and directed towards seeking greater understanding of the self, does the subconscious fist become ennobled and then the conscious mind is thereby “ennobled”. With firm authority does the Emperor grasp that which is given him. It’s being given from himself; the Empress aspect, the potentiated subconscious.

The Significant Self must also be considered as it is a highly developed portion of our being. It is partially influenced by the veil but not entirely. It is the Significator who has the Will to choose, and choose he does. It is at the instigation of the Significator that we seek to know ourselves and this begins the whole process of Initiation (of Mind).

It is our choice what we shall do with the Catalyst we are given. Catalyst ceases being random as our consciousness becomes awakened to greater spiritual reality. Then we take part in this planning (The Significator). Then that pre chosen catalyst is given during the incarnation. Where is the free will then?

It is then that we may choose (Significator) what to do with that Catalyst (The Emperor). The Significator also contains previous incarnation biases with which to meet these new experiences. These are biases he had developed in previous lifetimes, which were seen to be good qualities for the soul, for the spiritual path.

I do like how you frame free will as individual will. As we refine our choice making ability, our Will becomes focused and clearer. That Will is uniquely personal to each individual. I also believe that we will find down the line that our True Will is congruent with the Creator’s Will.
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10-31-2019, 01:52 PM,
#5
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
According to the man in the video there is no self. So then, can we agree then why are we here? Or are we not here? It's just The Creator that is here/nowhere? So, there is nothing to examine, nothing to experience, nothing to hurt for or cry over, or laugh or feel for. No Earth, no sunlight no anything to...There is no entity inside of me in which has a chemical reaction to serotonin, calcium or to potassium. There is no me and there is no you. Why worry about serotonin? Forget it. Do as you wish because there is nothing more to do with that one you call you. You are not.
I  don't know anything
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10-31-2019, 08:07 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-01-2019, 03:59 PM by Dekalb_Blues.)
#6
It Is What It Is (Or Ain't, As The Case May Be)
First, the Ten Thousand Things coyly reveal their integral cosmo-ecological unity in the transcedent One Infinite Creation:




Then -- hey presto! -- the utterly-mysterious no-thingness of the One Infinite Creator's Mystery-Clad Being kicks into overdrive,
baffling all and sundry as they disconsolately mill-about at the impassible portal of the impossible Gateless Gate!




Consternation ensues, alarums and excursions, barking at the Moon, etc. After that, all bets are off -- and it's every soul for itself!!


What to do?!


The Wise suggest:
[Image: KeepOnTruckin%2527.jpg] 


Latest psychoanthropological findings on the true nature of Free Will in Homo Sapiens:







These findings are supported by related experimentation with mice and other animals.
[Image: 103.jpg] 



  Cool

[Image: serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.gfyc...che=731158]


Why are you seeking? You are the same as It. Its essence speaks through you. You have been looking for yourself.

Study the One as much as you like, you will not know It, for It differs in a hundred ways from what you see It to be. 
Put yourself behind Its eyes and see It as It sees Itself, for It has chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see.

If in ultimate thirst you drink water from a cup, you see the One's face in it. Those who are not this thirsty will see only 
their own faces in it.

Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.

---Rumi




1.10  Questioner: Another question. Is it possible to create any acceleration of understanding [in] other entities [or are] all efforts… efforts by the individual on himself accelerating his understanding? In other words, if an individual tries to act as a catalyst in general to increase the awareness of planetary consciousness, is he doing nothing but acting upon himself or is it possible [inaudible]?

Ra: I am Ra. We shall answer your question in two parts, both of which are important equally.

Firstly, you must understand that the distinction between yourself and others is not visible to us. We do not consider that a separation exists between the consciousness-raising efforts of the distortion which you project as a personality and the distortion which you project as an other personality. Thus, to learn is the same as to teach unless you are not teaching what you are learning; in which case you have done you/they little or no good. This understanding should be pondered by your mind/body/spirit complex as it is a distortion which plays a part in your experiences at this nexus.

To turn to the second part of our response may we state our understanding, limited though it is.

[Side two of the tape of session 1 was taped over by the Sunday night meditation which followed it. The following is as published in Book I.]

Group-individuated consciousness is that state of sharing understanding with the other distortions of mind/body/spirit complexes, which are within the evident reach of the mind/body/spirit complex individual or group. Thus, we are speaking to you and accepting both our distortions and your own in order to enunciate the laws of creation, more especially the Law of One. We are not available to many of your peoples, for this is not an easily understood way of communication or type of philosophy. However, our very being is hopefully a poignant example of both the necessity and the near-hopelessness of attempting to teach.

Each of those in this group is striving to use, digest, and diversify the information which we are sending this instrument into the channels of the mind/body/spirit complex without distortion. The few whom you will illuminate by sharing your light are far more than enough reason for the greatest possible effort. To serve one is to serve all. Therefore, we offer the question back to you to state that indeed it is the only activity worth doing: to learn/teach or teach/learn. There is nothing else which is of aid in demonstrating the original thought except your very being, and the distortions that come from the unexplained, inarticulate, or mystery-clad being are many. Thus, to attempt to discern and weave your way through as many group mind/body/spirit distortions as possible among your peoples in the course of your teaching is a very good effort to make. We can speak no more valiantly of your desire to serve.



77.18  Questioner: I guess, under the first distortion, it was the free will of the Logos to choose to evolve without free will. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.




63.30  Questioner: I understand that the Logos did not plan for the heating effect that occurs in our third-density transition into fourth. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct except for the condition of free will which is, of course, planned by the Logos as It, Itself, is a creature of free will. In this climate an infinity of events or conditions may occur. They cannot be said to be planned by the Logos but can be said to have been freely allowed.







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izX5dIzI2RE
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11-01-2019, 03:34 AM,
#7
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(10-31-2019, 01:52 PM)kristina Wrote:  According to the man in the video there is no self.

That's not exactly what RS meant to convey.



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11-01-2019, 06:09 AM,
#8
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(11-01-2019, 03:34 AM)RitaJC Wrote:  
(10-31-2019, 01:52 PM)kristina Wrote:  According to the man in the video there is no self.

That's not exactly what RS meant to convey.




Firstly, I want to express I am not triggered and I definitely am not feeling any way or the other way about the video as I appreciate this man's journey and respect his individuated concepts that he is learn/teaching. They may be too advanced in a manner of speaking. I just think if we are exploring The Law of Free Will we can't start with there is no other self.
See, while I understand his baseline concept and it is as far as I know, it to be absolutely correct, however, there is something between "where" some are and where "he is", this man and his concepts that he is trying to convey.
What I expressed in my response is exactly how some would assume this man is saying because, let's face it, that's exacly what he is saying. When you put it against something like the Law of One, the inner teachings of the Law of One, his concept suffers vitality and the inner teachings of how to get from here, the 3rd density world, to the world in which we are all one. I feel if we are to explore free will or the lack of free will it, would be beneficial to examine self and other self as a "possibility". Other self serves as the mirror but until we learn that, we don't really know it. The Law of One and it's understanding will vary slightly from one to another but I see a similarity with all that come to know it and that is they explore and examine the self ever so deeply and at some point, you will discover there is only The Creator but there is a lot that happens between the point of the sound of the starting gun and that particular realization. Though deduction is a valuable concept no one can truly start there especially when we desire to explore something like free will in a 3rd density world and that is what we are exploring here. In that, I feel we could examine the concepts of Karma, spiritual biases, the Archetypes and the concept of reincarnation.
When we begin to explore some of these things it's a natural occurance to see that clearly they will include the understanding of self and other self especially when we are addressing the Law of Free Will.
I  don't know anything
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11-01-2019, 03:39 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-01-2019, 06:57 PM by Glow.)
#9
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(10-31-2019, 08:52 AM)Nau7ik Wrote:  We have a very important clue into how the mind works: the Tarot archetypes.

Until the mind has been potentiated, the subconscious is not producing the personally valuable material which can be worked on consciously. Most people are not aware of the catalyst that they are working with (ie experience). When the WILL is focused and directed towards seeking greater understanding of the self, does the subconscious fist become ennobled and then the conscious mind is thereby “ennobled”.  With firm authority does the Emperor grasp that which is given him. It’s being given from himself; the Empress aspect, the potentiated subconscious.

The Significant Self must also be considered as it is a highly developed portion of our being. It is partially influenced by the veil but not entirely. It is the Significator who has the Will to choose, and choose he does. It is at the instigation of the Significator that we seek to know ourselves and this begins the whole process of Initiation (of Mind).
Yet getting to this point has nothing to do with choice but the culmination of all experiences getting one to this point
(10-31-2019, 08:52 AM)Nau7ik Wrote:  It is our choice what we shall do with the Catalyst we are given. Catalyst ceases being random as our consciousness becomes awakened to greater spiritual reality. Then we take part in this planning (The Significator). Then that pre chosen catalyst is given during the incarnation. Where is the free will then?

It is then that we may choose (Significator) what to do with that Catalyst (The Emperor). The Significator also contains previous incarnation biases with which to meet these new experiences. These are biases he had developed in previous lifetimes, which were seen to be good qualities for the soul, for the spiritual path.
This still does not seem like the normal definition of free will to me. All these biases are tipping us to one choice or the other. What even we seek is a product of all experiences and how they distort the perception of consciousness. I am not saying you are wrong at all, actually you are correct, it's just this is not taking away anything in my view from the data in data out. Once we are aware due to the data that made us aware, it will again tilt our perceptions in a different way.

I am again through no free will of my own just data taking this a step further. There are lots of studies now about microdosing psilocybin in minute(I'm doing 1/35th a normal dose several days a week) amounts just enough to flatten out or make less dominant the regular patterns of the mind so new ways of thinking, behaving, reacting are opened up. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-athletes-way/201811/is-your-brain-microdoses-psilocybin I have had startling results so perhaps my individuated will is a bit more free with this unusual opportunity yet still, all chosen paths will be chosen because of the data that came before and shaped this choice maker's biases. Only ingrained habit will be subdued. Kinda amazing still.

(10-31-2019, 08:52 AM)Nau7ik Wrote:  I do like how you frame free will as individual will. As we refine our choice making ability, our Will becomes focused and clearer. That Will is uniquely personal to each individual. I also believe that we will find down the line that our True Will is congruent with the Creator’s Will.
100% to me this solidifies even more firmly we are all one, we are all portions of the creator,(it does still allow for journey of the individuated souls) and like you said becoming conscious and through previous bias we can start to help shape creation we really do become conscious creators. Yet to be free-ish we have to realize no-one is really free. It seems the more we realize we are not free the more potential we have to steer our will accurately by determining what will steer our future self where we (through data in data out) wish to go.

I hope that didn't sound argumentative. I enjoyed your post, I just sort of see the two can both be at the same time if expanded a bit.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
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11-01-2019, 03:48 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-01-2019, 07:00 PM by Glow.)
#10
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(10-31-2019, 01:52 PM)kristina Wrote:  According to the man in the video there is no self. So then, can we agree then why are we here? Or are we not here? It's just The Creator that is here/nowhere? So, there is nothing to examine, nothing to experience, nothing to hurt for or cry over, or laugh or feel for. No Earth, no sunlight no anything to...There is no entity inside of me in which has a chemical reaction to serotonin, calcium or to potassium. There is no me and there is no you. Why worry about serotonin? Forget it. Do as you wish because there is nothing more to do with that one you call you. You are not.

Well in one way that is 100% true, in another it doesn't really negate anything the Law of One or spirituality teaches.

I mean something, some experiencer individuated and created this incredibly diverse(infinite) web of experiences to shape each portion of consciousness to experience and "acquire data"/grow in awareness. If you think about it the complexity allowed by parts retaining separate subconscious memories(data) through multiple different incarnations just intensely deepens the complexity of each portions experience.

If anything it just deepens the imperative to live a life true to oneself. Who'd want to go through all life's struggles to only get out of it the same data billions of others got. Get new growth, new data, new biases. Take personally what will get you where you think you want to go, willfully if you can don't take personally what will keep you stuck standard thought loops that lead to the usual data acquired.

That is just my take. Both can be true, what you say and also that is all matters even more. Why waste this difficult journey for no new data because you are trying to fit in or conform. Not saying you conform but most of the world tries so hard to.
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11-01-2019, 04:04 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-01-2019, 04:08 PM by Glow.)
#11
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is

Your hitler thing reminded me of this.

The other day someone I was talking to about this told me to look up the neuroscientist Sam Harris.
This is one of his talks where he talks about free will and touches on psychopathy.







(10-31-2019, 08:07 PM)Dekalb_Blues Wrote:  Why are you seeking? You are the same as It. Its essence speaks through you. You have been looking for yourself.

Study the One as much as you like, you will not know It, for It differs in a hundred ways from what you see It to be. 
Put yourself behind Its eyes and see It as It sees Itself, for It has chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see.

If in ultimate thirst you drink water from a cup, you see the One's face in it. Those who are not this thirsty will see only 
their own faces in it.

Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.

---Rumi




1.10  Questioner: Another question. Is it possible to create any acceleration of understanding [in] other entities [or are] all efforts… efforts by the individual on himself accelerating his understanding? In other words, if an individual tries to act as a catalyst in general to increase the awareness of planetary consciousness, is he doing nothing but acting upon himself or is it possible [inaudible]?

Ra: I am Ra. We shall answer your question in two parts, both of which are important equally.

Firstly, you must understand that the distinction between yourself and others is not visible to us. We do not consider that a separation exists between the consciousness-raising efforts of the distortion which you project as a personality and the distortion which you project as an other personality. Thus, to learn is the same as to teach unless you are not teaching what you are learning; in which case you have done you/they little or no good. This understanding should be pondered by your mind/body/spirit complex as it is a distortion which plays a part in your experiences at this nexus.

To turn to the second part of our response may we state our understanding, limited though it is.

[Side two of the tape of session 1 was taped over by the Sunday night meditation which followed it. The following is as published in Book I.]

Group-individuated consciousness is that state of sharing understanding with the other distortions of mind/body/spirit complexes, which are within the evident reach of the mind/body/spirit complex individual or group. Thus, we are speaking to you and accepting both our distortions and your own in order to enunciate the laws of creation, more especially the Law of One. We are not available to many of your peoples, for this is not an easily understood way of communication or type of philosophy. However, our very being is hopefully a poignant example of both the necessity and the near-hopelessness of attempting to teach.

Each of those in this group is striving to use, digest, and diversify the information which we are sending this instrument into the channels of the mind/body/spirit complex without distortion. The few whom you will illuminate by sharing your light are far more than enough reason for the greatest possible effort. To serve one is to serve all. Therefore, we offer the question back to you to state that indeed it is the only activity worth doing: to learn/teach or teach/learn. There is nothing else which is of aid in demonstrating the original thought except your very being, and the distortions that come from the unexplained, inarticulate, or mystery-clad being are many. Thus, to attempt to discern and weave your way through as many group mind/body/spirit distortions as possible among your peoples in the course of your teaching is a very good effort to make. We can speak no more valiantly of your desire to serve.



77.18  Questioner: I guess, under the first distortion, it was the free will of the Logos to choose to evolve without free will. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.




63.30  Questioner: I understand that the Logos did not plan for the heating effect that occurs in our third-density transition into fourth. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct except for the condition of free will which is, of course, planned by the Logos as It, Itself, is a creature of free will. In this climate an infinity of events or conditions may occur. They cannot be said to be planned by the Logos but can be said to have been freely allowed.

AWESOME! Gathered together those Ra quotes mean so much more to me. Gotta love Rumi
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11-01-2019, 07:13 PM,
#12
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
I'll add in something so far missing from this discussion - the Fourth Way perspective.

Free will becomes a more complex question in some ways when moving beyond a materialistic framework. In other ways, it becomes simpler, given a metaphysics in which free will is really free at some level.

A key question is, what really exists which is part of an individual person? Is it just the physical body, and its place within a social and cultural context? Is it also an astral body, subject to less restrictive laws of the cosmos, and simultaneously present in a world corresponding to its own nature? How about a mental body, another step up, corresponding to 4D? Then there's the level of the causal body, in which the structure of the cosmos is so simple that each such "being" is able to choose which chains of cause and effect to become involved in. Beyond that, there's no "bodies" as such - there's too much cosmic unity for that.

In terms of the physical body alone, what materialistic science has to say is basically correct as far as free will goes. Except that it exists in a world in which beings at all the other levels interact, and some of the chains of influence can reach, and sometimes strongly grip, people who only have a physical body.

When it comes to the astral body, it is the "soulful" part of 3D existence, and it is more free, willed, and influential than the physical body. To the extent that its connections with the physical body and brain of an incarnation are developed (this can improve with certain inner work), it comes to rule the subconscious mind, and in part other activity, of the physical person. Then it is no longer so useful to dismiss free will on the basis of materialistic research.

The mental body can wield a greater influence over its environment, exert greater control over the incarnation, consciously work multidimensionally in terms of navigating a person through time, and in principle, produce various extraordinary phenomena (though "mental bodies" are seldom interested in "showing off"). Brain scans of people with mental bodies may or may not perplex researchers - what is shown can be unusual.

The causal body is more mysterious. But then, it is more difficult to be clear about 5D matters in terms understandable in relation to everyday life. The point as far as free will is concerned is that free will is well and truly free at that level.

The vast majority of people have either only a physical body, or the combination of a physical body and an astral body. Most other cases can be understood in terms of wanderers. (For 6D wanderers, I think that a specially formed type of 5D "body" is created by the 6D mind to provide a structure for use as a conduit and stable presence, which then reaches down into lower-density realities to connect to incarnations.) The world and some people growing into 4D however means that the number of "mental bodies" in the world will increase over time.
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11-02-2019, 04:29 AM,
#13
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(11-01-2019, 06:09 AM)kristina Wrote:  
(11-01-2019, 03:34 AM)RitaJC Wrote:  
(10-31-2019, 01:52 PM)kristina Wrote:  According to the man in the video there is no self.

That's not exactly what RS meant to convey.




Firstly, I want to express I am not triggered and I definitely am not feeling any way or the other way about the video as I appreciate this man's journey and respect his individuated concepts that he is learn/teaching. They may be too advanced in a manner of speaking. I just think if we are exploring The Law of Free Will we can't start with there is no other self.
See, while I understand his baseline concept and it is as far as I know, it to be absolutely correct, however, there is something between "where" some are and where "he is", this man and his concepts that he is trying to convey.
What I expressed in my response is exactly how some would assume this man is saying because, let's face it, that's exacly what he is saying. When you put it against something like the Law of One, the inner teachings of the Law of One, his concept suffers vitality and the inner teachings of how to get from here, the 3rd density world, to the world in which we are all one. I feel if we are to explore free will or the lack of free will it, would be beneficial to examine self and other self as a "possibility". Other self serves as the mirror but until we learn that, we don't really know it. The Law of One and it's understanding will vary slightly from one to another but I see a similarity with all that come to know it and that is they explore and examine the self ever so deeply and at some point, you will discover there is only The Creator but there is a lot that happens between the point of  the sound of the starting gun and that particular realization. Though deduction is a valuable concept no one can truly start there especially when we desire to explore something like free will in a 3rd density world and that is what we are exploring here. In that, I feel we could examine the concepts of Karma, spiritual biases, the Archetypes and the concept of reincarnation.
When we begin to explore some of these things it's a natural occurance to see that clearly they will include the understanding of self and other self especially when we are addressing the Law of Free Will.

I can agree 100% that this is not for beginner seekers
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11-02-2019, 04:34 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-02-2019, 04:35 AM by RitaJC.)
#14
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(11-01-2019, 07:13 PM)Asolsutsesvyl Wrote:  I'll add in something so far missing from this discussion - the Fourth Way perspective.

Free will becomes a more complex question in some ways when moving beyond a materialistic framework. In other ways, it becomes simpler, given a metaphysics in which free will is really free at some level.

A key question is, what really exists which is part of an individual person? Is it just the physical body, and its place within a social and cultural context? Is it also an astral body, subject to less restrictive laws of the cosmos, and simultaneously present in a world corresponding to its own nature? How about a mental body, another step up, corresponding to 4D? Then there's the level of the causal body, in which the structure of the cosmos is so simple that each such "being" is able to choose which chains of cause and effect to become involved in. Beyond that, there's no "bodies" as such - there's too much cosmic unity for that.

In terms of the physical body alone, what materialistic science has to say is basically correct as far as free will goes. Except that it exists in a world in which beings at all the other levels interact, and some of the chains of influence can reach, and sometimes strongly grip, people who only have a physical body.

When it comes to the astral body, it is the "soulful" part of 3D existence, and it is more free, willed, and influential than the physical body. To the extent that its connections with the physical body and brain of an incarnation are developed (this can improve with certain inner work), it comes to rule the subconscious mind, and in part other activity, of the physical person. Then it is no longer so useful to dismiss free will on the basis of materialistic research.

The mental body can wield a greater influence over its environment, exert greater control over the incarnation, consciously work multidimensionally in terms of navigating a person through time, and in principle, produce various extraordinary phenomena (though "mental bodies" are seldom interested in "showing off"). Brain scans of people with mental bodies may or may not perplex researchers - what is shown can be unusual.

The causal body is more mysterious. But then, it is more difficult to be clear about 5D matters in terms understandable in relation to everyday life. The point as far as free will is concerned is that free will is well and truly free at that level.

The vast majority of people have either only a physical body, or the combination of a physical body and an astral body. Most other cases can be understood in terms of wanderers. (For 6D wanderers, I think that a specially formed type of 5D "body" is created by the 6D mind to provide a structure for use as a conduit and stable presence, which then reaches down into lower-density realities to connect to incarnations.) The world and some people growing into 4D however means that the number of "mental bodies" in the world will increase over time.

I can agree 100% except with this part: "The vast majority of people have either only a physical body, or the combination of a physical body and an astral body."

I have become to know that all expressions of the Creator are always having all of the mentioned bodies (as a reality with the potential of being experienced). A particular expression might juts not be aware of some of them and not able to have a conscious experience of them for some time.
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11-02-2019, 04:35 PM,
#15
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(11-02-2019, 04:34 AM)RitaJC Wrote:  
(11-01-2019, 07:13 PM)Asolsutsesvyl Wrote:  I'll add in something so far missing from this discussion - the Fourth Way perspective. [...]

I can agree 100% except with this part: "The vast majority of people have either only a physical body, or the combination of a physical body and an astral body."

I have become to know that all expressions of the Creator are always having all of the mentioned bodies (as a reality with the potential of being experienced). A particular expression might juts not be aware of some of them and not able to have a conscious experience of them for some time.

I think people will continue to disagree about ideas concerning possible spiritual differences between people. (The basic difference mentioned is the same as can be read about on Montalk's website in terms of "organic portals".)

After thinking about what I posted, I realized it is a bit too simplified in two ways, at least:
- It only covers the cosmology part of Fourth Way ideas about free will, not the psychology part dealing with spiritual development.
- It is not clear if the cosmology mapping of concepts I made - logically a neat fit with the Law of One - is complete, because there are other possible interpretations of the bodies and development within Fourth Way theory.

A complete "human" development is described in terms of all the bodies mentioned, and as being possible and the end goal. Maybe there is a repeating pattern, in which the bodies as such can refer either to full-fledged being at the levels in question, or to something more basic which is still rooted in those levels. That's the only way in which I think Fourth Way development could actually be possible for people who are not wanderers greatly pre-equipped.

This also ties into the more flexible and ambiguous ideas of spiritual bodies provided by Ra, which makes clear that there's much more going on in existence in general than meets the eye. Various neat and simple structures relating types of existence to densities may be possible, but it's easy to miss something when coming up with a structure which seems to capture a lot.

A main difference between Fourth Way ideas and common ideas about spirituality remains the emphasis on a long, difficult, and uncertain road of spiritual development. Gurdjieff's version is the most extreme compared to ideas placing everyone on the same level. Mouravieff's version is more generous, and seems to be philosophically compatible with the Law of One.
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11-03-2019, 09:31 AM,
#16
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(11-02-2019, 04:29 AM)RitaJC Wrote:  
(11-01-2019, 06:09 AM)kristina Wrote:  
(11-01-2019, 03:34 AM)RitaJC Wrote:  
(10-31-2019, 01:52 PM)kristina Wrote:  According to the man in the video there is no self.

That's not exactly what RS meant to convey.




Firstly, I want to express I am not triggered and I definitely am not feeling any way or the other way about the video as I appreciate this man's journey and respect his individuated concepts that he is learn/teaching. They may be too advanced in a manner of speaking. I just think if we are exploring The Law of Free Will we can't start with there is no other self.
See, while I understand his baseline concept and it is as far as I know, it to be absolutely correct, however, there is something between "where" some are and where "he is", this man and his concepts that he is trying to convey.
What I expressed in my response is exactly how some would assume this man is saying because, let's face it, that's exacly what he is saying. When you put it against something like the Law of One, the inner teachings of the Law of One, his concept suffers vitality and the inner teachings of how to get from here, the 3rd density world, to the world in which we are all one. I feel if we are to explore free will or the lack of free will it, would be beneficial to examine self and other self as a "possibility". Other self serves as the mirror but until we learn that, we don't really know it. The Law of One and it's understanding will vary slightly from one to another but I see a similarity with all that come to know it and that is they explore and examine the self ever so deeply and at some point, you will discover there is only The Creator but there is a lot that happens between the point of  the sound of the starting gun and that particular realization. Though deduction is a valuable concept no one can truly start there especially when we desire to explore something like free will in a 3rd density world and that is what we are exploring here. In that, I feel we could examine the concepts of Karma, spiritual biases, the Archetypes and the concept of reincarnation.
When we begin to explore some of these things it's a natural occurance to see that clearly they will include the understanding of self and other self especially when we are addressing the Law of Free Will.

I can agree 100% that this is not for beginner seekers

Not for beginners but I see a lot of beginners who try and work with these ideas right away and end up becoming confused and distorted. Some spiritual revelations rely on previously had spiritual revelations for it to be understood properly.

Like yes this is an illusion we are, but it is a relatively real illusion. There’s a purpose for it. We are not done with it. So then to think that all is illusory and nothing is real, that “I am NOT” can get one thinking that life has no meaning. That they can do whatever they want because it doesn’t matter. In the Western Tradition people often take Crowley’s “Do as Thine Wilt” literally. I never understood it that way. Do as Thou Wilt means do what you were created to do; your True Will, your purpose for life. That’s quite a different meaning than do whatever you want whenever you want.

So I see what Kristina is saying that there is a lot that goes in between asking “Who Am I?” (Impetus for seeking) and “I am Not”. We are done working with the tools of the personality, the mind, body, and spirit. In fact we’ve barely just begun (being in 3D).
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11-03-2019, 07:20 PM,
#17
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
There are infinite paths at any given point.

However the non-infinite observer (you) are viewing from a particular vantage point which exposes a certain subset of those infinite choices.

The vantage point you are at, makes you what you know as 'you'.

If you were at a different vantage point, that would be a different 'you'.

And if you were able to view all the infinite paths, you would not be a limited, finite observer, but one with intelligent infinity.

Which would totally remove your freedom because now there are no options to be chosen - since all the options were already chosen, all paths traveled, everything done.

Therefore, your limitation as a finite entity, which limits your freedom to a certain subset of paths, is also the enabler of your freedom of choice. By paradoxically enabling the concept of making a choice.
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11-04-2019, 02:47 AM,
#18
RE: Trigger warning - Free will, I truly believe we have misinterpreted what that is
(11-03-2019, 09:31 AM)Nau7ik Wrote:  
(11-02-2019, 04:29 AM)RitaJC Wrote:  
(11-01-2019, 06:09 AM)kristina Wrote:  
(11-01-2019, 03:34 AM)RitaJC Wrote:  
(10-31-2019, 01:52 PM)kristina Wrote:  According to the man in the video there is no self.

That's not exactly what RS meant to convey.




Firstly, I want to express I am not triggered and I definitely am not feeling any way or the other way about the video as I appreciate this man's journey and respect his individuated concepts that he is learn/teaching. They may be too advanced in a manner of speaking. I just think if we are exploring The Law of Free Will we can't start with there is no other self.
See, while I understand his baseline concept and it is as far as I know, it to be absolutely correct, however, there is something between "where" some are and where "he is", this man and his concepts that he is trying to convey.
What I expressed in my response is exactly how some would assume this man is saying because, let's face it, that's exacly what he is saying. When you put it against something like the Law of One, the inner teachings of the Law of One, his concept suffers vitality and the inner teachings of how to get from here, the 3rd density world, to the world in which we are all one. I feel if we are to explore free will or the lack of free will it, would be beneficial to examine self and other self as a "possibility". Other self serves as the mirror but until we learn that, we don't really know it. The Law of One and it's understanding will vary slightly from one to another but I see a similarity with all that come to know it and that is they explore and examine the self ever so deeply and at some point, you will discover there is only The Creator but there is a lot that happens between the point of  the sound of the starting gun and that particular realization. Though deduction is a valuable concept no one can truly start there especially when we desire to explore something like free will in a 3rd density world and that is what we are exploring here. In that, I feel we could examine the concepts of Karma, spiritual biases, the Archetypes and the concept of reincarnation.
When we begin to explore some of these things it's a natural occurance to see that clearly they will include the understanding of self and other self especially when we are addressing the Law of Free Will.

I can agree 100% that this is not for beginner seekers

Not for beginners but I see a lot of beginners who try and work with these ideas right away and end up becoming confused and distorted. Some spiritual revelations rely on previously had spiritual revelations for it to be understood properly.

Like yes this is an illusion we are, but it is a relatively real illusion. There’s a purpose for it. We are not done with it. So then to think that all is illusory and nothing is real, that “I am NOT” can get one thinking that life has no meaning. That they can do whatever they want because it doesn’t matter. In the Western Tradition people often take Crowley’s “Do as Thine Wilt” literally. I never understood it that way. Do as Thou Wilt means do what you were created to do; your True Will, your purpose for life. That’s quite a different meaning than do whatever you want whenever you want.

So I see what Kristina is saying that there is a lot that goes in between asking “Who Am I?” (Impetus for seeking) and “I am Not”. We are done working with the tools of the personality, the mind, body, and spirit. In fact we’ve barely just begun (being in 3D).

I believe that's exactly what RS is trying to clarify in that video Smile
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