Is STO doing things?
04-09-2020, 03:11 AM,
#31
RE: Is STO doing things?
(04-08-2020, 05:11 AM)Agua Wrote:  I would also add to the discussion:

The question is always in relation to the one asking it!

The question itself, on a level of words, can be interpreted in many ways. And so there are many different answer, seemingly contradicting.
I think however, the different answer actually answer different interpretations of the question.

So, in regards to the original question, I would offer a few questions in return:

Why are you so concerned with polarity?
Is this in regard to being havestable?
If so, do you want to be harvestable in order to get away from here?

Are you being honest to yourself?
You have been on the spiritual path for quite some time, and still, you are asking questions that I feel you already know the answer within you.
So why do you ask this question in the first place?
Dont you hear the answer when you listen within?

Why do you think your ability to serve is limited to sitting at home and sending love?
Why do you believe you cannot go out, connect with human beings just in a totally normal way?
Wouldnt it be absolutely natural to do so?
Why do you think you cant do this?


I don't diagree Agua.

In fact, if you re-read what I wrote, I said I'm not judging or trying to throw stones from a glass house, and that I advocate patience with oneself.

But it's not a good idea to bullshit oneself.

Notice that you are AWARE you still smoke cigarettes. Your patient with yourself about it, but it's not like your bullshitting yourself and saying "Well actually, the cigarrettes are good for my health!" Or something. That would do you no good.

Not saying to feel ashamed for smoking em if I say not to lie to oneself and try to convince oneself the cigarettes are healthy. Just be real about it. You smoke, it's unhealthy, amd that's okay.

Or like... You know those people who are morbidly obese but they deny there are any health problems from that, because they don't want to feel "fat shamed"?

Well it's like, okay don't feel ashamed about it, but it is medically absurd to say you're "healthy at any weight" right?

Same with certain ideas.

No reason to shame oneself if one is rather inactive about one's life currently. Shame does one no good. But at the same time, it does no good to say that lack of doing anything is a service. It's not. I'm not admonishing. I'm just saying it is what it is and it ain't what it aint.
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04-09-2020, 03:13 AM,
#32
RE: Is STO doing things?
(04-08-2020, 03:54 PM)Agua Wrote:  @ Luigi
I think 51% positive as a requirement for harvest pointing to a „balance“ is an interpretation.
I dont think its about achieving a „balance“ of sto and sts.

I would say, it rather points to the fact that its really hard to cut down service to self to 49% even for a positive entity.
This would further point to the fact (or assumption) that the „starting point“ for all of us is way more on the sts side then we might think.

Sts doesnt mean I do something thats good for me.
But I expressed my views on that in the posts above.

Theres something wrong with my account technically, because of that my post need to be approved manually. so my post have a delay of a few hours and are a bit out of sequence (in regards to the discussion)  I apologize for that!

I was wondering about that. Makes sense.
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04-09-2020, 03:21 AM,
#33
RE: Is STO doing things?
(04-08-2020, 04:49 AM)Agua Wrote:  @Phoenix

A few observations I would share:

Well, sure, you are not shouting. Because you are writing...

HOWEVER if you for the fucking sake of honesty ReAD what you WRITE, with ALL the CAPiTALS, with all the f***, s***, bullshit and so on, you MIGHT ReALiZE, that there IS quite a LOF of A G G R E S S I O N im your posts....

I dont think the original poster deserves that, he just asked a question.
And, yes, we all struggle.
We all get impatient with ourselves, for we seemingly endlessly repeat the same negative cycles over and over again.

Dont get me wrong, this is not about „freedom of speech“, this is not about lovey-dovey language only.
This is about someone entering a room and slapping everyone ´s face, which I dont find appropriate.

Fair enough. Although I also just have a tendency to curse a lot.

Still, you're right. I'll be more mindful next time.
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04-09-2020, 08:15 AM,
#34
RE: Is STO doing things?
(04-08-2020, 03:54 PM)Agua Wrote:  @ Luigi
I think 51% positive as a requirement for harvest pointing to a „balance“ is an interpretation.
I dont think its about achieving a „balance“ of sto and sts.

I would say, it rather points to the fact that its really hard to cut down service to self to 49% even for a positive entity.
This would further point to the fact (or assumption) that the „starting point“ for all of us is way more on the sts side then we might think.

Sts doesnt mean I do something thats good for me.
But I expressed my views on that in the posts above.

That makes more sense to me. Thank you!
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04-09-2020, 09:45 AM,
#35
RE: Is STO doing things?
@Indy

Let me share a personal observation here:

As you know, I have been writing on this forum for a few years (on and off).
I shared a lot of „solutions“ I have found in my own healing process.

But, honestly, did that heal anybody? Soem might have read it, some might have understood what I meant, some not, very few might have tried it. But, I mean, nice illusions aside, how small is or was the effect this had, if any?
Especially for the people I wrote it for, I was at best comforting, maybe interesting. But I have seen nobody heal from it.

At the same time, in „real life“ I experience people on a regular basis heal and progress with the support of the work I do.
Thats a totally different thing and cannot even be remotely compared.

What is the difference?
I think, the main difference is a personal human presence.
It is crucial for people to even relate to whatever one offers to them in form of a human being being really there.

Healing can occur much easier that way. A common root of almost all human trauma and the resulting blockages and issues is having been alone in the original situation.
One doesnt usually dare to even approach this energy within alone, it can only be healed when someone is there and supports.

A spiritual teaching also falls in a similar category.
What do wrds mean? What use do they have?
A very limited one, in my opinion.
People will interpret all kinds of stuff into whatever you say, according to their understanding, heavily distorting whatever you offer.

Actually seeing, feeling, experiencing what somebody has to share is a totally different thing.

And it is also the same with, lets say a lack of love.
How many of us are lonely, or lack love?
What does it help, in regards to that lack and need, that some unknown entity, no matter if its Ra, or Jesus, or Indy beams love to us (which happens all the time)?

Does it still one ´ s thirst for love?
I dont think so.

But look at how miraculous just a simple real hug works, how good that feels, and how much that can help in times of pain and sorrow.
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04-09-2020, 01:46 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-09-2020, 06:48 PM by Agua.)
#36
RE: Is STO doing things?
Hi Asolsutsesvyl',
a few comments on what you wrote:


„ That's a simple and sensible point. As it relates to myself, hiding in my personal life instead of being "out there" in some sense and actually bringing something to people is a long-running theme.“


It is not uncommon however. I did struggle with that for quite a long time.
It is worth healing however!
In hindsight, I can say I didnt even realize how self limiting this was, way beyond the obvious „not meeting people“
It was actually more of a „not participating in life“, not only shared with others, but even just on my own, which led to a quite miserable state that I continuosly had to numb with games, tv, drugs, internet and more.


„To be clear, I didn't have you in mind regarding moralizers who push people to do in an unbalanced way. That relates to faulty wishdom teaching I'm acquainted with.“



No worries, no offense taken!
Faulty wisdom teaching always occurs when people „teach“ something they havent experienced personally.
Every „spiritual information“ that derives from books (or youtube) and interpretation, is not wisdom, it is knowledge which is interpreted by one ´ s own limitations.
There is a tendency to equate that with „the real thing“. Thats where one doesnt see the pitfalls and misunderstandings.
Those teachings are no teachings actually.



„My background complicates spiritual matters, as the teaching I was submerged in (The Cassiopaean version of "the Work") makes for extreme self-scrutiny and not really growing in what is smallest in oneself, but instead pushing it all aside in search for what is the "real self". The curious self-distance is a big stumbling block, in starting over in a healthier way. My inner guidance suggested that I had "built myself up and burned myself out" at the same time.“



I am not familiar with the material. What I can say from experience, that, especially when we work alone, we tend to interpret every method through our own limitations and use them in a way that often reenforces the issue, although that wasnt how the method was intended.
Does that make sense?

For example, when we are disconnected from ourselves and ungrounded, we will likely distort a method in a way that further disconnects us from ourselves.

„The best ideal I have preserved from those years relates to information and how it can help people. The sharing of information can be a very big thing, as the Ra contact shows. The obscuring of understanding can also be a very big thing, as negative imitations show. A future of positive social memory complexes means consciousnesses growing together, which means that whatever brings positive common ground helps, and the removal of artificial barriers between people also helps.“



While the sharing of information is a great thing, there is also a huge pitfall:
(I see this especially with the Ra material)
Those informations are pointers. They point to something, and the teaching is about that which the pointers point to, its not about the pointers!

You will find a lot of discussion about pointers, while there seems to be little awareness that its only pointers. This makes up for a nice obstacle.

Also, again there is a temptation to misuse each information for one ´ s own hidden agenda.

A good example would be this thread and the information about the social memory complex you mentioned.
How could a smc be formed without getting in touch with eachother?
How could we get in touch with eachother when we are not really „here“ in this body, in this world?

That should be very obvious.
However, the tendency for many seems to be to „reach“ spiritual realms, which then is being done by „moving away“ from here, by further disconnecting and instead trying to connect with „higher realms“.
This is a huge distortion of the material in my opinion.
Quite the opposite, I believe, its actually about really connecting with the physical plane, which is first and foremost our body.
This is our tool through which we make experiences. When we are not fully connected, we obviously experience only a limited aspect of ours.

So, what might sound like a paradox, actually makes a lot of sense:
If we want to experience spiritual realms, we have to move INTO the physical fully, then we can access our consciousness, and I speak about our greater consciousness, more fully.
Whereas, when we try to get away from here into spiritual realms, we actually are much more limited in our ability to experience our full consciousness.

„About Gurdjieff's basic point, it's easy to relate to how being messed up in the lower chakras prevents really "being" in what is "done". A stable presence in what corresponds to the fourth chakra corresponds, more or less, to having "crossed the second threshold", in Fourth Way terms, and is very far from how people start out. (The Fourth Way teaching is at an extreme in describing the usual spiritual accomplishments as all imaginary and achieving anything for real as very difficult.)“



I fully agree with that!
I have to admit though, that I came to dislike the viewing of things in the light of chakras a lot.
Not that its wrong or cannot be helpful.

But again, this is among the most misused concepts I have seen.
There is a tendency to see ourselves as a mechanical device, nicely sorted into categories.
And then, so one might think, we just have to understand the mechanics to be able to control them.
This could not be further from the truth.
We are no machines, there are no mechanics.
A mechanical view is a disconnected view, it loses sight of the fact that we are a living experiencing feeling sentient totality.
All the issues, problems, blockages we have originated when we felt something that was „unwanted“ (painful, terrifying, overwhelming, whatever). We disconnected from that.

In order to heal, we have to re-connect. With the totality of what we are, not excluding any aspect.
A mechanical view and approach is a manifestation of our disconnectedness,a compartmetalization, an artificial seperating disconnecting of things that actually are a whole, and because of that is a part of our problem and cannot be a solution.

Other than that, the chakra stuff is surely true and helpful, AFTER one has overcome the obstacle mentioned.
In my opinion at least.


My favourite Ra quote (not literal though):

„It is of crucial importance for the entity to realize that it does not understand in order to become harvestable“
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04-09-2020, 05:08 PM,
#37
RE: Is STO doing things?
Those are REALLY good points Micha.
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04-10-2020, 01:24 PM,
#38
RE: Is STO doing things?
+1 for "it's not so concrete." I concur.
The desire to be free is one of the brightest burning flames in the heart of humanity.
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04-12-2020, 12:04 AM,
#39
RE: Is STO doing things?
While radiating energy without taking action can still manifest a large level of positivity, positive polarity is more geared towards taking action outwards.
can reach me@ unity100-gmail
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04-12-2020, 01:18 AM,
#40
RE: Is STO doing things?
(04-09-2020, 01:46 PM)Agua Wrote:   „ That's a simple and sensible point. As it relates to myself, hiding in my    personal life instead of being "out there" in some sense and actually bringing something to people is a long-running theme.“

It is not uncommon however. I did struggle with that for quite a long time.
It is worth healing however!
In hindsight, I can say I didnt even realize how self limiting this was, way beyond the obvious „not meeting people“
It was actually more of a „not participating in life“, not only shared with others, but even just on my own, which led to a quite miserable state that I continuosly had to numb with games, tv, drugs, internet and more.

I have gone through a curious "loop", where I am currently back at the "hiding" phase. Lessons of my life repeating, before and after my time with the Cassiopaea community, but in a different order and more quickly.

Before those years, while making it through school while increasingly bitter and angry at the world and humanity, and with depression a theme since earlier in childhood, I spent a lot of time on video games and, later, hobby software programming. I had a curiously divided attitude towards everything spiritual, and did not really focus on it that much, apart from constantly being concerned with personal energetic things in an obsessive-compulsive way.

With the Cassiopaea-related information came a deep exploration of philosophical and metaphysical things for the first time. It was the first thing I could really take seriously, and I ended up fully invested in idealism connected to it all. Basically, if you believe in that group, then helping out in connection with it becomes the "best" thing you can do. The peak of that was in 2015, when I got their new wiki (thecasswiki.net, now down) basically ready, along with one more pedantic nerdy member who did about half the editing. The peak of it doubled as my personal experience of "The Tower", in terms of the Tarot, in hindsight.

What thereafter? A very big headache and heartache, following the most sudden personal transition in my life, inwardly. The "larger mind beyond the conscious mind" telling me that I am not just a machine, but a living being, too; a short, structured symbolic presentation which, in hindsight, summarizes part of what I was to live through afterwards; then, basically, heaven and hell.

Now I'm back "outside" the great dreams I had, outside the Cassiopaea community tunnel vision in which it is an island of light in an ocean of darkness, and all disagreements with its spiritual direction are due to the evil forces of "The Matrix".

And I hope to do some things, e.g. return to my undergraduate studies, and/or something else beyond living with my parents while inwardly on shaky ground, not sure when or to what extent I can really "get going" in any particular direction.

In the meantime, restarting on a personal level, and digesting everything, made for visiting this place, where the basic orientation seems to be the opposite, on closer examination, to the Cassiopaea group. While rebuilding my worldview, interacting here seems to help. The thread I made on Cassiopaea-related things in relation to Ra-related things also aims to fill in a basic gap in reasonable criticism on the web.

(04-09-2020, 01:46 PM)Agua Wrote:  Faulty wisdom teaching always occurs when people „teach“ something they havent experienced personally.
Every „spiritual information“ that derives from books (or youtube) and interpretation, is not wisdom, it is knowledge which is interpreted by one ´ s own limitations.
There is a tendency to equate that with „the real thing“. Thats where one doesnt see the pitfalls and misunderstandings.
Those teachings are no teachings actually.

[...] What I can say from experience, that, especially when we work alone, we tend to interpret every method through our own limitations and use them in a way that often reenforces the issue, although that wasnt how the method was intended.
Does that make sense?

For example, when we are disconnected from ourselves and ungrounded, we will likely distort a method in a way that further disconnects us from ourselves.

The weird thing about the Cassiopaea group, where the main teacher-figure has experienced a hell of a lot, mixing extremely egocentric symbolic interpretations with a very down-to-Earth attitude in other ways, is how it describes things which can go wrong with spiritual matters so completely. All information which can be needed concerning why theory alone doesn't work, is provided. All the ways in which people can fail to "see themselves" and then paint themselves into corners, are also described. There's also much information about higher-D STS beings and how they work, and what looks like a very extensive follow-up to "book 5"-type Ra material topics.

I can't say how "well" or "badly" I have done in relation to what I learned there, though I did work with that group on the web, to the fullest extent that was possible. Outside the group, the most basic ideas of the group made for much greater psychological and spiritual isolation, not less.

Before the inner breaking point (followed by an outer later on), I had a very strong sense, grown over the years, that in general, I knew and did not know, and understood and did not understand, everything I knew and understood.

Afterwards, I can make no claims as to being grounded, but I can make the claim of having "grown back into" myself, in the midst of more going on in the inner world than can be described. Now I have no method as such, any longer. I simply explore (which includes everything external I do), growing something of an approach over time.

(04-09-2020, 01:46 PM)Agua Wrote:  How could a smc be formed without getting in touch with eachother?
How could we get in touch with eachother when we are not really „here“ in this body, in this world?

That should be very obvious.
However, the tendency for many seems to be to „reach“ spiritual realms, which then is being done by „moving away“ from here, by further disconnecting and instead trying to connect with „higher realms“.
This is a huge distortion of the material in my opinion.
Quite the opposite, I believe, its actually about really connecting with the physical plane, which is first and foremost our body.
This is our tool through which we make experiences. When we are not fully connected, we obviously experience only a limited aspect of ours.

So, what might sound like a paradox, actually makes a lot of sense:
If we want to experience spiritual realms, we have to move INTO the physical fully, then we can access our consciousness, and I speak about our greater consciousness, more fully.
Whereas, when we try to get away from here into spiritual realms, we actually are much more limited in our ability to experience our full consciousness.

I think people need to work through their bodies in order to form a positive future, though I'm not sure how much in-person physical contact can tie into it. That's because for the most part, such opportunities do not exist; the world is very big, physically, while people are small, in terms of what they can do in person.

It can make a very big difference to have a smaller portion of people doing something positive in person, compared to if they didn't. But at the same time, it is dwarfed by the mass of what is going on which doesn't include expressions of positive spirituality. But I think what people do, through the physical lives they have, build something not only on the physical level, but something which can grow into a different type of future. I cling to that answer because the idea of everything to do with social memory complexes forming happening in this physical world seems logically impossible.

When physical life is truly lived, with and as part of a connection to "higher realms", then maybe something of the nature of those "higher realms" can move closer to Earth, closer to those who live its basic nature. Then, over time, maybe things can change in ways we cannot predict accurately at this level.

(04-09-2020, 01:46 PM)Agua Wrote:  There is a tendency to see ourselves as a mechanical device, nicely sorted into categories.
And then, so one might think, we just have to understand the mechanics to be able to control them.
This could not be further from the truth.
We are no machines, there are no mechanics.
A mechanical view is a disconnected view, it loses sight of the fact that we are a living experiencing feeling sentient totality.
All the issues, problems, blockages we have originated when we felt something that was „unwanted“ (painful, terrifying, overwhelming, whatever). We disconnected from that.

In order to heal, we have to re-connect. With the totality of what we are, not excluding any aspect.
A mechanical view and approach is a manifestation of our disconnectedness,a compartmetalization, an artificial seperating disconnecting of things that actually are a whole, and because of that is a part of our problem and cannot be a solution.

The Fourth Way teaching is also extreme in mechanizing human life. But it uses this as the foundation for describing why people cannot control themselves just by understanding the mechanics: change one thing in a complex system and more things will change in ways you did not predict. I think Gurdjieff went wrong in making the barrier between the Earthly and mechanical, and the spiritual and non-mechanical, a little too strong and rigidly defined in his thinking, though it includes a rich multi-layer structure of nested laws and substances of subtler and less mechanical kinds forming all "matter" in the cosmos, including the unique and all-inclusive "atom" of God itself.

(That teaching is very rich in complex structured ideas, which are used in simplified and somewhat conventionalized form by the Cassiopaea group. They basically discard the "cosmology" and instead use a simplified, distorted version of Ra's cosmology, based on their own "6D STO" channeling.)

I have been going through a process of learning that everything I took to be myself, at various times, is just part of the whole.

But I still think it is possible, but not easy, to form a more full, less disconnected, view in connection with neatly structured intellectual contents. I think in part Gurdjieff actually did so, though much of his idiosyncratic mystical systems thinking has been lost and is not provided by the books which cover his ideas. He emphasized that people have more than one kind of mind, and the labeling-machine associated with the physical brain is not the "proper mind" for understanding things.
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