Bring4th

(03-11-2017, 09:50 AM)Night Owl Wrote: [ -> ]I think the kind of pain you describe as the root is one kind of pain. But there are many kinds of pain and in that lies my first interaction. The kind you describe I would say is the root of red/orange blocage. But as life goes on and we experience the yellow ray (social interactions) we create new pains because of social constructs. I can atest I have experienced the kind of pain you described when I was younger I just think I have made peace with the root. I much more suffer now from derivations of social pain like projections from others, feelings of being not understood, feeling trapped inside social constructs totally absent of understanding of the individuals. I mean I am a man. If someone comes to me and puts me inside the oppressor box in the feminist debate just because I am a man, I feel totally as oppressed as women because I've never considered oppressing a woman myself. If anything women around me seem more free than I ever felt like. I have to constantly seperate myself from social constructs in order to even feel like I exist because inside the social box of norms there's just no place where I can exist. I have to be alone in order to experience a feeling of liberty and perception of my own existence else I just feel like I'm in some other people's nightmares.

Just to hit on that note of putting you(any men) in the oppressor box. I'd say it was a fair bet to assume at least myself I never saw any of you here in that box. This thread was so uncomfortable because some posts where feminism was attacked actually made it possible that men here would be part of that and I had not considered that so it was a shock.

I also want to say I see men's pain every day. I see many women, society really treat men as if their value is based on the money they can provide or how the measure up to the role man has been prescribed and it hits my gag reflex every time.

Men are told by society and each other and even women to suppress their inner self just be the wallet, build your power to control everything in the world yourself included and that will be the way to happiness.

i see men everyday having ticked all societies prescribed boxes, they have worked so hard to do what they were told make money, build assets, marry a beautiful women, perhaps the even upgrade to one more beautiful, have heirs, give them everything,.... infinity then they find they are empty still.

Others still never get that far they are labeled less of a man because they earn less, don't get a lot of sex, lack power, have "womanly" emotions, infinity.

They truely need to know themselves, be loved by those who want to know them deeply and can cherish them then worry about the material details. Society obscures the solution is so simple. Society puts us in this loop of no one being good enough as themselves, no one ever being truely acceptable when really if we dropped those material requirements beauty, power, monetary worth and just valued each other for the one inside we would all be loved, all be cared for, all he happy.

I know I am not communicating clearly, so much to say but almost to much to say it all. Men are treated badly. It goes so far back. I truely believe a root of how men were trained to reach for a model of malehood so they would be able to see themselves as worthy and be seen as worthy was started by those in power to keep their power. Divide and conquer.

Men and women we do what we do if you take off all the filters we do it to be loved by one selves and each other. Everyone deep down wants acceptance of their true self and love. The elite inflicted these rules of how men should be and how women should be and it essentially pushed us as counterparts into what seems like an infinite spiral away from ourselves, each other and what we truely want... divide and conquer was never does with so much presission.

I'm out of words but thank you all for sharing yours.

(03-11-2017, 06:03 AM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-10-2017, 10:45 PM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-10-2017, 10:43 PM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-06-2017, 03:35 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]Is this not what most of this thread is though? Wounds clashing wounds?

Yup. Exactly.

(03-06-2017, 03:12 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't see anyone attempt at understanding e_s in his wounds, in his pain (except Van, you go Van!), no one attempt at helping him have a more healthy view of it all. There's just been reactions of others being triggered in their own wounds and as such there is no seeking to understand one another but instead a desire to label right and wrong in one another.

I can't disagree with this.  But everybody did the best they could--even earth_spirit, I firmly believe this.  We will always come up short.  I just hope we can take a lesson from it, explore those triggered, hurting parts of ourselves.  They need love, not correctitude.

So how would that have gone down had Jade or I been all sympathetic to es? How would that have changed or stopped the negative anti woman spiral of posts dancing around the issue or reinforcing his perspective. Since you see the wounds and arent wounded by this issue this could have been something you did. Why should we the women have to as usual be the passive understanding ones.

He might have decided we few women don't suck but he still would hate all women but us. I live that daily, it changes nothing.
I have tons of guy friends that care about me because I'm an anomaly to them but thinking I'm good doesn't make them generalize it to women are good trust me. Sometimes people have to just be told they are not going to be silent while they perpetuate hate.

As an aside ALL women know some feminism goes to far. We ALL know it but have you seen other social movements? The leading edge is ALWAYS crazy aggressive and single minded. Greenpeace, PITA, racial movements that basically become anti white. They are the ones that are uncomfortable but swing the pendulum past the mark so over time things settle in the middle.

We are not dumb we know things go to far but since things have been WAY TO FAR the other way for WAY TO LONG this is how they bring attention.

Did any if you even read the channeling Jade posted? I see lots of likes but it explained exactly that.

I did not mean to point fingers and instead used him as an  example to describe the issue I saw and which applied a bit to everyone.

I personally really don't have anything against any forum member. If a member has a view which could be considered wrong then I will think there's cause and effect  to lead them to this view and I already described a view that hates women as unhealthy, which in my view makes it something not to hate but to seek to help be better.

Sometimes I can be a bit harsh in my words but I do this out of seeing paradoxes in others more than having any harsh feelings toward others. Like I saw many potentials of messages in my post to SMC, a particular one I thought was useful in the LOO context was "don't over-identify to be a woman because you are a woman now" but that's really just my usual ever ratationalyzing the Creator in all things.

---

I'm going to go back on the view I shared about this subject, that male and female are an intertwined dance.

I think it's fairly obvious, if sought to be seen through this angle, that the male energy in it's repression of the female energy is quite the slave to the female energy. There's been quite a lot of harsh things done to women, lot of efforts put into subdoing women, but why is this so? If men wanted to be above women then they'd need to be without interest for women, without a drive for women and without a need of women, which is very clearly never the case. Man has a great need for woman and it is this need that we see being distorted and twisted into an unsightful version of itself. So I think it's never really about man versus woman but instead the spectrum of the relationship of male/female female/male energy. Everything in reality is meant to teach us something about the unified Creator we are, it is never outside the context of any moment.

This world has a unique balance to itself and that's all the point of why it is veiled. It seeks to offer a vivid dream, a vivid experience. Earth's biases are what makes it what it is and it is something to be understood because you cannot erase what is and only accept it as a portion of yourself reflected.

So while I think the idea to see these issues fixed is great, I think the path toward this is the one I "preach" on every societal issue. The first step is individual healing, creating a rippling effect of individual healings. Individual healing is always done through a realization of the self about the self. Others or the external world can trigger this realization or enhance its likelihood, but it always starts and ends in self and that is why to bring down the focus toward oneself is important. Mysoginyst in man will end the day man heals its feelings of relationship toward woman, I really don't see it happen any other way however right other ways may feel.

Thank you Minyatur. I agree and appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective. Sorry I called you out, but maybe not sorry, :) I value you.
Your energy and perspective have helped me many times the posts in this thread many are so brief that they feel cold and leave a lot of room for misinterpretation.

Inwas boarderline misinterpreting yours but was holding hope that was the case hense I pushed for more. Thank you for filling in the gaps. :)

(03-11-2017, 01:23 AM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]CS I like you and of course love everyone but to like someone can be harder. I like you. I do not feel like discussing this with you is a waste of a burden because your heart is in the right place even if you have a few blind spots. It's all good.
SMC - currently doesn't have the bandwidth and myself I'm only replying to posts that make me feel my words even matter. So you let's talk.

I take issue with you saying to call something hateful is hateful.
Can we rethink this together?

How should we view a continual dismissive attitude towards those who only want to be loved as equals. Let's admit it that's what this is. If we can talk about male and female joining to be one. How can you love us, and us be one with you if the male energy for some reason wants to see the female as less than. Doesn't want to look at the fact that still today in first world countries we are constantly treating the female half of the one as the part that is disposable interchangeably with any other set of tits. Emotion and intuition laughable or crazy? As less meaningful, significant, worthy. You yourself have admitted to hating women at one point how is it you cannot see there is a bias toward hate of the feminin?

And why would you assume that us being unable to sit silently through it without anyone speaking up and calling it what it is HATE means that we hate too?
I hate no one. If you've paid any attention you know Jade hates no one. SMC never says anything anti male just anti "head in the sand" so I do t see her as hating either just fed up which seems reasonable after 50 years.

I swear I'm at 40 still not in the disposed of side because I've taken very good care of myself people always are shocked I'm not 26 but still at times 40 years of being treated like something with a value experation date and in the interim just a sex doll(that se doll stuff started at 4 ), f*** I've just had enough. I'm considering lately being a lesbian next life and not have to think about being thrown away for something as natural as aging, and to be loved by someone who sees me as equal. I love men so deeply and completely that is saying a lot, it makes me sad thinking I won't get to be up close to the male energy I love so much that I try to surround myself with it but I'm sick of being garbage in the making. Im over it and need a break.

As to men being concerers and women being manipulative. Can you perhaps see why this may have started? The manipulative part? My mother was very manipulative it taught me I want nothing that isn't given freely and do not want gestures or treasures I would not be bestowed naturally. Manipulation and games are ugly to me but both sexes partake.

I understand it, don't like it but understand. If you were controlled, knew you were apt to be replaced because your value was nil to the world and you have been conditioned over centuries to feel helpless(Google learned helplessness it is usual applied to individuals but its ingrained in the female culture) you cannot force or negotiate or assert yourself to take care of yourself what are you left with but manipulation? As women learn over time they are strong and valued I'm sure the behaviour will sort itself out.

I see it everywhere I work with a lot of women clients I get to know them over the years and even great ones suprise me. Women I think are strong they make great money and should be free still have to play games because their husbands often just "say no". I have never given anyone the right to say no to me being free. I'm sure I've been stoned to death in many lives lol

One man I fell so hard for I would have so easily accepted it so I get now how it happens submissivenesswithout violence but actually as a child my much older larger brother  use to beat me to the point the police would be called because I won't be dominated. It's not some rare thing these things still happen and shape the female psyche . Anyways that matters not I have equal and worse abuse from both sexes likely why I don't vilify either sex but my point is women have been conditioned for millennia to not face men head on for obvious reasons. Perhaps you have a bit of insight to this now but men manipulate just as bad.

How do you think men convinced women to tolerate being seen as bodies, be treated as bodies threat of replacement, threat of violence. That is manipulative too.

People can be quite crappy, we have a long long past. Baggage to clean up.
Gotta understand it first.

Now that you mention it, I think you're right, and further, maybe its hateful of me to view expression of hate as hateful.  There's a difference between being hateful and pointing out you hate something, you're right, and thank you for pointing it out to me.

I am blind in many ways, it can be disorienting trying to understand something without the direct experiences that associate that understanding.

I think dismissive in the apathetic sense should be met with an open gesture to teach the dismissive people.  They may be dismissing these prevalent issues because they do not fully or deeply understand the importance of such issues.

I do see a bias of hate towards the feminine D:
I see quite clearly because I used to have it and in small ways still do.  It shone in my last post when I angrily asked if SMC felt we were equals as woman and man and felt her post was mean in ways.  But at the end of it, I still understood at least in sympathy.  Decades of abuse would make a very strong wall, I shouldn't be chipping at it...

I'm sorry SMC.  I was out of line...

I really think I need to go back and change up how I explain something.

For every man abused and woman abused, we are given a trigger.  I don't want to pull this trigger, however I do not see any way to discharge the emotional pain than to feel the trigger be pulled, and not kick back in recoil from the distaste of hate.  Sort of like a rock that doesn't roll when moved.  I was hoping to point out to everyone, not just SMC or Jade that to feel hate and express feeling this is one way to handle things.  I'm more a believer that mirroring isn't as useful as being transparent in the hopes of healing and disarming those triggers that make us feel hate.
As in, don't point out how hateful it is if its obvious, instead why not let that hate go through you, and be forgiving anyway? You don't need to be gentle or calm in this if you don't want to, perhaps showing the intensity of emotion you feel while forgiving is helpful too, as it shows those who are hurtful that you are stronger than they degrade you down to be, and you are better than they would have others believe of you (looking at you SMC ).  That you are just as capable as anyone or any man in being a better being.

So I think I failed in expressing that.  I believe we should be transparent to those feelings and make movements to disarm the trigger and not be recoiled by it.

I think we all are capable of hatred even if we hide or suppress it very well, I have yet to see a man or woman who didn't have such issue or didn't hate some aspect of the opposite sex OR even their own.  I feel hated very very, veryveryvery extremely vividly having been so deeply submerged in it for so long.  I do feel those energies in this thread, albeit they do not approach bigotry or irrationality, even if I initially feel such as a man on this subject lacking a female first hand perspective and understanding.  But I'm aware of this and try to hold off judgment to better see how and why they have their views.  I am blind, I really don't want to be anymore...

It is a very sad thing that we judge a person's value by their attractiveness.  I'm not very attractive overall and I recognize both men and women do this, but I do feel like men are the majority perpetuaters in this and the ones who initially imbued it in everyone else.

Attractiveness shouldn't determine a person's value...I say that desperately as someone who feels valued very little for not being a more pleasant male form.

Glow, you're never going to be garbage and anyone who's made you feel such ways aren't people I think you should bother with.
In that same light I don't blame Jade or SMC for not bothering with me, I just feel pretty crappy that I hurt them in the exact way I was trying not to...

I've lately been in denial of my own homosexual experiences throughout my life.  Most women used me, many men used me.  I fit the derogatory 'femboy' remarks men use to degrade less manly men.  I'm more of a gentle passionate person into body contact and cuddling and intimacy than sex.  Half the time now a days because of porn I hardly feel aroused, but I do feel that warm fuzzy want to just hold someone and 'be' with them, to give a person a back rub and a foot rub and a neck and shoulder rub and to make them feel relaxed and at home and completely wanted without any tension.

I just want to make people melt in satisfaction v-v
To have that big grin while going 'Mmmmmm'.
Sadly I never get to do this anymore, no one wants these things by an unattractive person.

I don't know if I'm trans or just bi.  I have felt like a girl in the body of a boy since as long as I can remember, since before even age 5, I was just always dominated by traits society calls feminine.  I was even considered gay or in the closet and I guess I look gay too apparently...  Which led to really bad bullying, it didn't help I was getting fatter from the misery and suddenly had man tits that people would make fun of me for by calling me 'boobies'.

Despite being a man, I feel directly the bias against the feminine, against how I am...  I just feel it reduces the plight of women for me to admit this, that I somehow negate their suffering by saying I'm a man and suffer from this too...  But perhaps it will help others see we're all able of being similar in unexpected ways...

I love the female energies, I often beat myself up for so long letting myself so easily see them in only sexual ways...  don't think all men are the same.  My bigotry severely damaged my image of myself, because in the end I was being bigoted towards myself and projecting it outwards on women.  I do hate myself for not being a manly man, for being so womanly, it took a lot to accept that I am, a feminine guy...  And I just wish I knew what to do with myself.

Quote:As to men being concerers and women being manipulative. Can you perhaps see why this may have started? The manipulative part?

I see exactly why.  How else could a woman get anywhere in a male dominated world?  Not all women are manipulative thankfully, as not all men are inundated with issues against women.  But I must say, my own mother has been mistreated by men for being a women, most specifically in her corporate jobs.  She's had a supervisor sexually harass her and lie his way out of it gaslighting her along the way.  She got fired on her birthday because her boss hated and spited her and waited until her birthday to do so.

There are some very ugly personalities out there.  Ugly in being, ugly in vice and apathy...

I think manipulative women are an integral part to dismantling the overly male dominated prejudices.  If a woman can best a man while at such a disadvantage, how can she be considered weaker or lesser??? Patriarchal denial?

I recognize this 'saying no' and suppressing a woman.  I've seen it happen in far too many places and ways to be comfortable with it...

I'm sure I like you have met many violent ends for how my soul is while in a body...

I think men are manipulative but I must admit just as men perpetuated attractiveness as value, women gave the power of manipulation an extreme boost in viability because of how much they are engendered to be manipulative just to prosper in surviving.

I think women being more mental and intuitively imbued are much better hidden manipulators than men who might do so more bluntly and aggressively.  Women aren't as aggressive manipulates, they are much more sly from my experience.  Exceptions always apply though as I'm sure there are equally sly men who manipulate and equally aggressive women who manipulate.

Manipulation overall belongs to both sexes, I just think the feminine energy uses it more efficiently a majority of the time but this might be because 90% of all women I've interacted with manipulated me very easily, so my experiences might have painted prejudice in this area for me.

I don't want aggressors or manipulation, I just want love.  It makes me feel sick in my stomach seeing such misery in all of us.  I pray we all get the love we need to heal.

Thank you for your response.  I see now I'm being...Insensitive and blunt and rude.  I'll take my leave of the topic discussions except to mention now and again compassion and forgiveness are very important here.

I am sorry Jade.  I am sorry SMC.

I didn't mean to be so hurtful.

Agua del Cielo Wrote: [ -> ]You may all hate me now...

On the contrary, I love you more now for your observations! I often avoid responding to you because I believe I'd just muddy things up for you.

You have a much better grasp on things than I.  I'm very imbalanced towards intellectualism over emotionalism.  I do not think I know myself very well, especially since I once did, back in 2014...

Night Owl, would I be off in thinking all social pain is actually just personal pain on a collective level?

(03-11-2017, 03:54 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: [ -> ]Night Owl, would I be off in thinking all social pain is actually just personal pain on a collective level?

I do not experience this without other selves so I do not believe so. But what do I know?

(03-10-2017, 11:10 PM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not really part of this anymore it seems completely futile to discuss any of this.
Do you really think any of the women here need to be told the feminist movement boarders on female worship and goes to far. Do you think we don't know many have turned into man haters and that this is also wrong?

It is part of the much needed process of social change it always happens that way. It is the ONLY way people pay attention and the weak sheep learn to stand tall and not be bullied. It has always been ugly whennthings shift because the pendulum HAS to balance out the ones who drag their feet in said change..

Who was this original topic written for the women or the men?

Was it for the men? To what end discuss again women's errors? If you truely saw women as equals and had compassion it seems unlikely you would be threatened by the more aggressive versions of feminism and understand how far we still have to go to true equality and would understand it's part of the process.

Alll social change happens like a pendulum swing - over shoots and comes back to balance..

If you wrote it for women was it to chastise us or what just to tell us we aren't better than men?
Any woman HERE would know we aren't better than the other sex.

So me I am on Instagram and only for mind opening stuff..

I am not an activist but i live to see underdogs reclaim their value.  I love people. Both sexes all cultures. I only have posted 3 things 2 that point out the unfair way society treats men, and another an osho quote that speaks of being all cultures all races because I love them all.

I follow all kinds of black pride, Spanish pride, gay pride movements and until this thread NO feminist ones. I interact with all these groups and see their beauty, their cultures and beingness are gorgeous they interact with me and when they go to far I point out that I am white but certainly do not see them anyway but as an equally beautiful valuable being. I love them.

I can't sift through all this stuff on here line by line it's to much.
I hope you guys and gals can find the convo you need but I'm still sort of realling over this entire thread happening here. I guess we all get silly expectations here and there in life one of mine is since I shelter others from hate I'm always shocked when people do not do the same for me(as a woman)

Thank you sincerely for those who spoke for women or opened your hearts enough to try to see what you have not experienced.

Glow, I was not intending this to any gender. I was highlighting the institutional level from which ideas are spread. The ideas that Janice is opposed to is that the answer to solving our oppressive system lies in suppressing male energy, and following a diversity protocol that the most talented individual will not get the job unless they also fit the required gender or race profile.  The only concession I would make is my ignorance of International Woman's Day, and that I did not make a more detailed post explaining the backdrop of how I came across this video and why I found it personally valuable.

That yourself and others have made it personal is none of my business. I never saw this coming and I meant no ill will, I can swear on that. My early ambitions in life were to be a lawyer and then a police officer. I ended up working as a bricklayer, which is no hardship I can assure you for someone who needs to expend a lot of energy. My point is that I have always had a very strong sense of justice, even in my formative years. I am actually on the same side as you.

(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]Why should people have to participate in discussions that start from the idea that femisism is wrong (posted during women's history month no less)?

Here is another example of misrepresentation. I assume you are referring to the start of this thread? And you conclude that I am implying that feminism is "wrong"? Even though I made a clear distinction between the virtues of the feminist movement and its "vice aspect".

(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]Why is there any need to justify the movement for social justice and equality?

Because it is seen as ideologically driven, that's why. Why do you think that politics across the western world has become increasingly polarised? Are echo chambers helpful to you?

(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]Why are people put on trial for demanding basic human rights?

Because they are demanding something that is absent from the minds of those that they are attempting to persuade.

(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]By demanding that the oppressed prove their oppression or shouting down their points you are directly contributing to that oppression.

You have used the word "demanding" in order to augment 2 positions. Can you see the problem here?

(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]Women do not enjoy the same level of freedom as men. That is a fact.

I think we deed to define freedom here. You mean a coal miner is free? An off shore scaffolder is free? A long distance lorry driver is free? A front line soldier is free?

They are not free as long as they are distanced from their family. 

(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]Feminism may be unpalatable to some or may trigger cognitive dissonance since it goes against your beliefs

Yes I agree. The "fear of being possessed"  springs to my mind.

(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]but regardless there are MUCH BIGGER ISSUES than whether or not feminism "goes too far." Feminism is necessary until structural gender inequality is rectified, after that you can complain about it going too far.

In 1917, Russian women went on a "sex strike". Between the period of 1919 to 1959, upward of 30 million Russians died due to the overthrowing of an existing oppressive force. Granted, we don't have alternative timeline figures to compare this with. Nonetheless this form of totalitarianism resulted shortly after the death of Rasputin. Power vacuums lead to chaos, and they are replaced by ideological opportunists so although I agree with the need for social change, at this point in time, I wholly disagree with your premise. Forcing change by way of political diversity and equality programs, at the expense of merit is not a good idea right now. Humpty Trumpty got into office btw.

(03-10-2017, 01:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]Meanwhile the real source of oppression is what we should be concerned about, and that is the profit-driven capitalist system which thrives off the oppression of certain sectors of the population.

And that is precisely why I am more concerned about young boys at this time, because they are the one's that end up in prison for rape, murder, etc. They are the ones that inflict damage on innocent females. They are the ones that prop this system up.

But yeah, like you said, there are MUCH BIGGER ISSUES.

Nicolas we are not on the same page. I found your original post quite uncomfortable because you are blaming a social movement meant to strengthen a suppressed group for not doing things for those outside the group.

That is kind of the point of a focused group like this to build them up. I also don't agree with you or your scholar because I don't think there is anything to complain about. It's a social movement running its course. They are never balanced and moderate, they always are meant to push. The always have aspects equally tacky as the people they need to drag kicking and screaming in to modern more equality based times.

I also do not see any issue with having hiring quotas. Women are seen as less. I do a job in a very male field. Run my own business. I'm one of the higher skilled but you'd be suprised how hard it was to get clients because I don't have a penis and the clients are used to trusting their penis owning professional. I get it I have an aspect to me that is conditioned to see the same way.
Men have always been the ones we look to because women were not traditionally the professionals.

Yet I have a great nonwavering super happy client base. I do an amazing job, equal but different to the way men do it in my field. I've had to fight twice as hard to get the same trust and respect men in the field were handed as an assumption upon entering the profession.

Women honestly were the worst(men found me an interesting novelty, Or if they had daughters a role model for their daughters) and people would out of the blue walk up to me the first few years almost daily and say "in my country you wouldn't be allowed to do this job" l(European) and the boys club in my industry actuay stood against me embracing each other and freezing me out. I was change and they didn't want change. I was one of 2 women now there are dozens.

Once they noticed I had built my business, my methods while different worked very well and that I was going no where they became more decent some even allies and friends but make no mistake it is very hard to break in to industries that had always been male.

Men have been the leaders for so long, it's just natural to want to hire a man. Force women into places no one wants them and minds get changed. I was a business owner so could do it myself and let the dollars speak for me. In other industries where they are pressure by clients and coworkers to not hire women and the way IN for women has to be opened till its accepted that yeah actually we are as good, unfortunately that takes a lot of time in this society but in another 15 years I bet that will no longer be needed. Then that push will stop because it has run its course.

I hear lots from minority groups and do not expect them to make their platform palatable to me. They are not there to be moderate they are their to get in society's face and change the world.

Men certainly have issues of their own but feminism can be exactly what it needs to be as it develops, it will change and grow as society grows and changes. Men already have advocacy groups and my God just try to tell me they aren't doing the same..

At the same time I do not see you as a bad person, or a woman hater you just are expecting a group to do something it never was intended to do, and are perhaps to focused on parts of feminism you don't like vs seeing it for what it is a group meant to force change where it is being resisted.

Big picture, but we are allowed to disagree.

(03-11-2017, 03:36 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: [ -> ]Now that you mention it, I think you're right, and further, maybe its hateful of me to view expression of hate as hateful.  There's a difference between being hateful and pointing out you hate something, you're right, and thank you for pointing it out to me.

I am blind in many ways, it can be disorienting trying to understand something without the direct experiences that associate that understanding.

I think dismissive in the apathetic sense should be met with an open gesture to teach the dismissive people.  They may be dismissing these prevalent issues because they do not fully or deeply understand the importance of such issues.

I do see a bias of hate towards the feminine D:
I see quite clearly because I used to have it and in small ways still do.  It shone in my last post when I angrily asked if SMC felt we were equals as woman and man and felt her post was mean in ways.  But at the end of it, I still understood at least in sympathy.  Decades of abuse would make a very strong wall, I shouldn't be chipping at it...

I'm sorry SMC.  I was out of line...

I really think I need to go back and change up how I explain something.

For every man abused and woman abused, we are given a trigger.  I don't want to pull this trigger, however I do not see any way to discharge the emotional pain than to feel the trigger be pulled, and not kick back in recoil from the distaste of hate.  Sort of like a rock that doesn't roll when moved.  I was hoping to point out to everyone, not just SMC or Jade that to feel hate and express feeling this is one way to handle things.  I'm more a believer that mirroring isn't as useful as being transparent in the hopes of healing and disarming those triggers that make us feel hate.
As in, don't point out how hateful it is if its obvious, instead why not let that hate go through you, and be forgiving anyway? You don't need to be gentle or calm in this if you don't want to, perhaps showing the intensity of emotion you feel while forgiving is helpful too, as it shows those who are hurtful that you are stronger than they degrade you down to be, and you are better than they would have others believe of you (looking at you SMC ).  That you are just as capable as anyone or any man in being a better being.

So I think I failed in expressing that.  I believe we should be transparent to those feelings and make movements to disarm the trigger and not be recoiled by it.

I think we all are capable of hatred even if we hide or suppress it very well, I have yet to see a man or woman who didn't have such issue or didn't hate some aspect of the opposite sex OR even their own.  I feel hated very very, veryveryvery extremely vividly having been so deeply submerged in it for so long.  I do feel those energies in this thread, albeit they do not approach bigotry or irrationality, even if I initially feel such as a man on this subject lacking a female first hand perspective and understanding.  But I'm aware of this and try to hold off judgment to better see how and why they have their views.  I am blind, I really don't want to be anymore...

First I'm not sure why you keep seeing our reactions as hate. Jades exact words to me if I can rudely quote was "exasperated" me it was similar annoyance/frustration/sadness/even some anger but hate isnt really part of my life.
How could I hate that which I have the potential to be? Ignorant, close minded, willfully blind with wounds of my own that drive a different direction than the ones in the life I currently live. Being fed up is not hate.

The only time I thought I hated someone, it was actually just sad and a feeling of betrayal. I'd say under my breath "I hate you" but quite honestly they were the person I loved the most. That is the only hate I have felt in at least 20 years and it wasn't hate at all, felt like it but I was just burying my love and sadness in something that was less turned inward. I'm so uncomfortable with dishonesty I couldn't even lie to myself so moments later would silenty admit to myself how deeply I loved them. No hate really.

c.a Wrote:It is a very sad thing that we judge a person's value by their attractiveness.  I'm not very attractive overall and I recognize both men and women do this, but I do feel like men are the majority perpetuaters in this and the ones who initially imbued it in everyone else.

Attractiveness shouldn't determine a person's value...I say that desperately as someone who feels valued very little for not being a more pleasant male form.

Glow, you're never going to be garbage and anyone who's made you feel such ways aren't people I think you should bother with.

I agree and it's funny how people try to say well it's biological as if that says it should continue, well picking a powerful mate and the one that can provide for offspring best is also biological if you look at the animal kingdom so why is one ok to continue while females are expected to move past such pettiness?

Are we really accepting the lowest form of ourselves as permanent?
Are we not evolving in mind, heart and soul? maybe it's time the heart leads for a change.

c.a Wrote:In that same light I don't blame Jade or SMC for not bothering with me, I just feel pretty crappy that I hurt them in the exact way I was trying not to...

I've lately been in denial of my own homosexual experiences throughout my life.  Most women used me, many men used me.  I fit the derogatory 'femboy' remarks men use to degrade less manly men.  I'm more of a gentle passionate person into body contact and cuddling and intimacy than sex.  Half the time now a days because of porn I hardly feel aroused, but I do feel that warm fuzzy want to just hold someone and 'be' with them, to give a person a back rub and a foot rub and a neck and shoulder rub and to make them feel relaxed and at home and completely wanted without any tension.

I just want to make people melt in satisfaction v-v
To have that big grin while going 'Mmmmmm'.
Sadly I never get to do this anymore, no one wants these things by an unattractive person.

I don't know if I'm trans or just bi.  I have felt like a girl in the body of a boy since as long as I can remember, since before even age 5, I was just always dominated by traits society calls feminine.  I was even considered gay or in the closet and I guess I look gay too apparently...  Which led to really bad bullying, it didn't help I was getting fatter from the misery and suddenly had man tits that people would make fun of me for by calling me 'boobies'.

sounds like you have been unlucky to be around shallow people. I can not say it's going to change fast but people are changing. Also you never know what is around the corner. I love sexually balanced people. Whatever your balance own it. Let it shine.

I like being fit because it's treating my vehicle with respect, and athleticism has always been something I enjoy. I also like making my mate smile so staying healthy is something that benefits both of us but not everyone is driven that way and hey one of my best friends has manboobs. Love is blind, he whines about it but I can't see it. He's beautiful to me. Don't be so hard on yourself.

c.a Wrote:Despite being a man, I feel directly the bias against the feminine, against how I am...  I just feel it reduces the plight of women for me to admit this, that I somehow negate their suffering by saying I'm a man and suffer from this too...  But perhaps it will help others see we're all able of being similar in unexpected ways...

I love the female energies, I often beat myself up for so long letting myself so easily see them in only sexual ways...  don't think all men are the same.  My bigotry severely damaged my image of myself, because in the end I was being bigoted towards myself and projecting it outwards on women.  I do hate myself for not being a manly man, for being so womanly, it took a lot to accept that I am, a feminine guy...  And I just wish I knew what to do with myself.

I don't think you are alone in this. Leadership vilified the feminine, we all have feminin sides, if you are taught to push away the feminine of course you will treat it harshly within yourself.

You are not weird just a part of the male psyche that has been hidden for a long time. Get comfortable with yourself. There is only beauty there.

c.a Wrote:Thank you for your response.  I see now I'm being...Insensitive and blunt and rude.  I'll take my leave of the topic discussions except to mention now and again compassion and forgiveness are very important here.

I am sorry Jade.  I am sorry SMC.

I didn't mean to be so hurtful.

Again you are being way to hard on yourself. I'd say no to insensitive, rude or blunt and just go with honest and looking for insight you didn't have. You may have miss-stepped but didn't we all? That's kind of the nature of authenticity it's not just the pretty edited picture but the entire mess.

I don't think you need to leave the conversation. Please be a bit nicer to yourself.
If we are one go a bit easier on me while I am you.

Ps I hope abbreviating your name was not offensive. I'm on my phone and it's a lot of letters to type then have autocorrect change. nothing personal.

while men on this thread - and in the world - day to day - do not listen - and instead continue to speak from positions of supposed authority on the oppressions of people NOT of their gender - nothing will fundamentally change - at least not for those men's perspectives.

NB: it would be a very rare and short lived thread for a white person to presume to tell black people about their experiences, feelings and historical oppression

I have no specific anger with this thread or any people - my wounding or pain or experiences are not up for examination, but I am not angry in my interactions here.

I have no "wall" up either - I am simply being expedient. I'm conserving my energy. I'm getting on with my life. I have no time to give my hard earned knowledge to those who will take it apart bit by bit and disrespect my lived experiences.

Members here have through their words and behaviours shown me a long while ago that they will argue for the stimulation of it - writing from a viewpoint of intellectual detachment or in the case of C_A from a well intentioned but constantly self referring perspective.

Without moderation from others (Jade has done way more than her share) without B4 admin/mods reinforcing that this is a forum of equality for genders/sexualities and races - members here are constantly being bogged down in having to explain and justify their identities and identity discriminations to the dominant white male egregore and anti-feminist or non-active feminist woman members.

There's no diversity in the daily regular posters to B4 and so few members of the 7,000 members enrolled ever contribute because people join and then become silent - because of (for example) - homophobia; advocacy for toxic, poorly made 'designer' drugs; disapproval of controlled, well researched, psychiatric drug therapy; sexism; victim blaming in the guise of "you created your experience of abuse"; and many other inflammatory ideas.

Lately - the mods have left Jade to fend for herself - with occasional comments from Garry - but the guidelines for what is consensus reality for B4 human rights standards are in word only - and not adequately enforced.

Catalyst is all well and good in one regard - but Bring4th mods/admin have the opportunity (imo responsibility) to set loving standards BY EXAMPLE - clearly they created positive - STO guidelines and want them to be applied in interactions - but what is the point in them being written if they are not guiding principles IN ACTION. ?


Not that I should need to say - but Feminism is also about caring for men's negative experiences from patriarchy also. What men need to understand is that the majority of feminists do care about men's oppressions under patriarchy - it's just that with women so disadvantaged we need to prioritise our issues FIRST. The system of patriarchy is tilted in your favour guys - stop criticising women's efforts to liberate themselves - focussing on the flaws is nitpicking, petty, resentful - and selfish! It only show how much you don't understand !

I've been very moved by some of the personal disclosures on this thread recently, and want to express to those sharing such personal and horrible experiences/issues/feelings  - that patriarchy caused those abuses - and that I also care very much for men and their pain and their feelings. My entire experience of feminism - life long is that those experiences are also important issues of feminism.
(My parents, 83 and 94 brought me up feminist - my father is a lifelong supporter of equality for women. He became a 'house husband' so my mother could work and study for a university degree - she ended up with a Doctorate in Education - because he worked full time then came home and cooked the meals, and he and his 2 daughters cleaned our family home while she studied and worked full time. )

BTW: - I don't see matriarchy as a solution either - balance of all representations of fe/male is the healthiest.

When you focus on the 'worst' representations of a movement for equal rights and start nit picking ask yourself why you do that?

You wouldn't be okay if a woman started a thread nitpicking all the horrors of dysfunctional male behaviour and insinuate it represents all men?

Stop generalising - don't do this to feminism.

And if anyone wants an amazingly good TV show to watch - to better understand feminism as a response to the daily difficulties for women watch:

"Call The Midwife" BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0118t80

It may be not your 'cup of tea' but if you want a perspective on your parents and grandparents (at least from 'typical life' in England in the 1950's) watch it - I do - because it's my mothers LIVED EXPERIENCE - and it shows the climate in which feminism really found it's further progression. It shows the hardships for ordinary families and the incredible difficulty of being a woman not that long ago.

Things have only recently changed... until recent decades a woman had to give birth and mother a child after pregnancy from a brief sexual encounter and the man could walk away forever if he wished! She might even have died giving birth - and he could be already with another young women getting her pregnant...

Last comment -> for all the philosophical back and forth on B4 - hows about we live our lives being as kind and helpful and loving as possible to people in our daily lives?

Hows about men here stop asking us to explain and justify but become new and improved people in your daily lives wherever you can?

Be good to yourselves so you will be peaceful at heart and be able to be good to others.

Stop being aggressive, stop watching porn - stop justifying a President who is de-funding planned parenthood and abortion - stop playing violent video games - go and do some volunteer work - go and be a role model to young children, your siblings, your girlfriends and wives, your mothers, your fathers...

Stop arguing here on B4 in an echo chamber of self congratulatory metaphysical intellectualism - go volunteer with war veterans, or their widows, or in cancer wards, or take a meal to an impoverished neighbour - go plant flowers and vegetables, live in daily peace and kindness - spread love

be kind

heal yourselves

share daily practical kindness and harmony

be a new human

Great post SMC.

I would like to come to the defense of the mods though.  They are very busy.  You can see all the things they get up to by reading Jim's daily journal, which you can find on the bring4th homepage.  The mods have a hard job, and I think they far more often than not, handle things very well. They have the almost impossible job of finding that sweet spot between letting people express themselves and censoring or cautioning against certain types of expression. I don't think this thread got so out of hand that it required serious mod intervention.

thanks Billy -

I feel without REALLY active moderation (ie: from several mods simultaneously backing each other up as well as restating the forum guidelines when they are breached) Bring4th has been deteriorating over a long period of time... and I worry that many attitudes expressed on B4 deter people from the Ra material - for example - no-one I know of in my offline life gives this forum much credence or spends time here because some of the conversations are either so extreme, (ie: advocating rape as a learning/therapy), or so vague - with comments and replies either inappropriate to a forum of intelligent adults; or, serious misinterpretations (that remain uncorrected by mods) of the actual material.

But I'm also learning to leave well alone what vexes me and read the Ra material topics only - leaving the rest for those who want more 'catalytic' type of interactions. This is not bypassing btw - but that I have endured traumatic catalyst my entire life and need solace at this point - not aggression or constant argument.

- I joined in recently because it was an opportunity to have solidarity for female members to express together what men have difficulty believing was even happening here: ie: sexism and privilege.

You don't want a 'thought police' atmosphere - I want men to be able to express their needs and hurts and concerns - but the content posted to this thread for example - was so far out of synch with the guidelines of B4's consensus reality - and this is just is another thread causing a whole shitstorm of hurt, disharmony and it brought a whole lot of anti female hatred out of a person which when combined with other posts from men became really "de-tuned". For the record - e-s likely has had severe abuse and wounding from a significant and severely imbalanced toxic female role model in his life - and feminism does not involve denying that some women can be very toxic, vengeful, imbalanced and dangerous. However, short of independent sociopathy/psychopathy the imbalance of an abusive patriarchy is the usual cause.

To finish up - I don't want to be on a forum where there isn't basic understanding of injustice.

There's so much dysfunction and ugliness and stress that is breaking our hearts and threatening to break our spirits.

To find it here?

I came here to find kindred, family - support.

How misguided that was!

But I have grown more assertive and supportive of myself. And that's worth quite a lot.

You know, I think we made some real progress here

I definitely feel a bit more enlightened in these subjects, enough to say that perhaps I'd be more helpful by just listening.

Thanks, SMC.

I think you have displayed how to moderate this thread without needing official moderators, and I take on board what you are saying. My Mother in law watches that show!

Thank you, too, Glow. I appreciate it. 

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/advice/...lin-moran/


and


http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/news/a7...-feminism/


:idea: :idea:

Maybe we should consider letting SMC be a trial mod and see if she's especially good at whipping this place back into shape/'tune'

I cant get behind the idea that my experiences were caused by a "patriarchy" though. I prefer to own them. I overheard my cousin talking about this type of patriarchy as if it was some kind of new conspiracy. Another reason to reject the present conditions and just get high instead. I also think it is healthier to develop a sense of gratitude rather than acknowledge a sense of advantage. The other trouble I have with the patriarch thing is that it does not, or at least has difficulty with the nature aspect. That's what I find to most dishonest about it. Not in any moral sense though. It's almost as if it the acknowledgement of it acts like a concession, and is therefore counterproductive.

(03-12-2017, 06:45 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe we should consider letting SMC be a trial mod and see if she's especially good at whipping this place back into shape/'tune'

oh lawd no! - the majority of active posters here would find that awful - (and that is their right); and I have no direct connection or authority with the L/L team.

additionally - until there was a basic (daily) energy of genuine Agape* here - constantly defending myself would only add to the (often extreme) harshness of this density for me - and I'm working very hard to keep myself incarnate already.

By this* I mean that if a person has a very specific theory on a contentious topic they feel completely safe to share it - provide evidence, answer questions about it - and not be hostile or defensive - and in good faith, in return, they should not be patronised or scorned if a person/people find the idea 'ridiculous'.
(This is what I tried to do with Manjushri when he said he was convinced Michelle Obama is transsexual.)

(Unfortunately my ideas are unrealistic and my standards are old school face to face respect that's almost non existent in the world of internet interactions.)

I still think that it would be great to have a place where if a person wants, they can share their fears and concerns, and receive support and listening from others whether people believe the same as well. I do think this happens on some threads here. For it to happen as a regular thing would be even better.

But even moving past this - imo it would be really productive if we could help each other in much more practical and specific ways in each others daily lives.

Otherwise this is all talk - no action.

(03-12-2017, 08:34 PM)Nicholas Wrote: [ -> ]I cant get behind the idea that my experiences were caused by a "patriarchy" though. I prefer to own them. I overheard my cousin talking about this type of patriarchy as if it was some kind of new conspiracy. Another reason to reject the present conditions and just get high instead. I also think it is healthier to develop a sense of gratitude rather than acknowledge a sense of advantage. The other trouble I have with the patriarch thing is that it does not, or at least has difficulty with the nature aspect. That's what I find to most dishonest about it. Not in any moral sense though. It's almost as if it the acknowledgement of it acts like a concession, and is therefore counterproductive.

for me - to identify a root cause and 'call it' brings the beginning of empowerment.

I don't think that precludes then 'owning it' - as in - 'owning my capacity to then work to transform it'

patriarchy as "some new kind of conspiracy" ahaha! it's a conspiracy as old as the ocean bed!!

but his reaction to be avoidant is not useful - I agree that would be off-putting

-----

another thing that may help explain my feminism is - I see Selves as having chosen to incarnate into a gender form and then undertake the 'theatre' of 3D life here - but when not incarnate here - we are all genderless - and so, patriarchy - masculine imbalance - is a 'condition' here - but even the worst examples (manifest in patriarchal archetypical men) I see as entities driving themselves through 3D life - in a vehicle (the incarnative identity) that I could have chosen.
I don't know the specifics of why I chose to incarnate female - but it doesn't mean I'm a "better" entity on the other side of the veil - or here in 3D for that matter.

This is why when I say that I truly am filled with love for B4 members I genuinely mean it - because I see everyone past their 3D 'costumes'...

that's not to say however, that I will allow myself their fellow 'actor', to be stressed, disrespected or patronised by the actors on the stage around me


----

can you explain further - what you mean by "the nature aspect" ? and "acts like a concession" ?

:idea:

re:

Quote:I also think it is healthier to develop a sense of gratitude rather than acknowledge a sense of advantage.

for your 'conscience' (emotional convenience) maybe... but imo it's even more healthy to share the advantage and help create optimal conditions for all.

Quote:"It is better to light candles than to curse the darkness.
It is better to plant seeds than to accuse the earth.
The world needs all of our power and love and energy, and each of us has something that we can give.
The trick is to find it and use it, to find it and give it away. So there will always be more. We can be lights for each other, and through each other's illumination we will see the way....
Each of us is a seed, a silent promise, and it is always spring.
~ Merle Shain

Smc, it just seems obvious to me that to attack bring4th moderators that way, you clearly have taken no time to know them, know what they do and understand their work. Keep in mind their work is not only bound by forum guidelines but also to the Law of One which I'm not sure you agree with to begin with. To me they do a fantastic job, maybe it's just not the same job you think they do. I think one of the first thing they are here for is providing a space/time/time/space for people to grow and have learning catalyst. It is not their job to control this environement but to preserve it. And I think in these regards they have given YOU a lot. And I believe they do so because they believe in you, that through this process you can grow and become closer to the best version of yourself. It is only my opinion and is meant for food for thoughts.

If you think it's okay that women on B4 had to read (for example) - rape threats on another thread - and the kind of hatred of women that was posted to this thread - without any other mod giving support to Jade - (who's now taken a time out from this thread) - and that for me to criticise other mods silence, is an "attack" - I can only reply that I question your judgement.

There have been NUMEROUS breaches of forum guidelines (guidelines created by L/L) in this and other recent threads.

NB:
I've taken a great deal of time to communicate with several mods over a few years and we have written back and forth to each other.
I have a lot of love for the mods and for L/L.
I do still perceive neglect of these forums by them, perhaps due to personal circumstances of theirs that I'm not aware of.

As to you 'not being sure I agree' with the Law of One - I find this supposition very interesting and wonder how you have come about it from what I post.

The Ra material is the most important and comprehensive channelled Wisdom and Love I have ever read.

I am not a solo life form in this one body/personality vehicle and therefore find solo incarnation (ie: being separated from my 'collective') terrifying; and because of this suppressed terror at being 'solo' - my daily existence is extremely difficult.

I was nearing understanding of my alien-ness/non human identity prior to discovering the Ra material - and since finding it, a deeper understanding of SMC's has confirmed 'me' to myself - and literally prevented me from committing suicide.

So the inaccuracy of your comment is considerable.
~

btw:

why do we need feminism? here's an example:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/m...078ca72c93

I do not promote these things but the people who do promote these things need space and time in order to grow just like you. Only by allowing them to express themselves can they eventually change. I'm only sharing that it feels to me you are judging them without even taking the time to understand what they're doing. It seems (I think) you want them to be up to your standards but you don't seem like you want to discuss your standards which is kind of mean if you ask me. I mean it's perfectly fine that you have standards but if you find people here so innaproriate why do you hang out repetitively with people you don't appreciate? I sometimes experience the same as you do, some people makes me feel angry and all weird inside, but I don't think it's a good idea to feed yourself from these people in such a case. Would it not be better to use your time doing things that make you happy and being with people which makes you happy? I mean I would very much like you to be here if that makes you happy but it doesn't seem like you enjoy yourself. I think there's a strong contradiction in constantly bashing people only to continuously hang out with them. I don't mean to start an argument and all, I just wish you would take some time and analyse the reasons this place makes you so angry. I don't think anyone here genuinely wants you to feel angry. They're all very good people if you would just take the time to notice. I understand you take these subjects very seriously, I'm just promoting understanding one another.

(03-10-2017, 10:45 PM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]So how would that have gone down had Jade or I been all sympathetic to es? How would that have changed or stopped the negative anti woman spiral of posts dancing around the issue or reinforcing his perspective.

I don't know.  It would be foolish to love him while leaving yourself completely open to his attack, wouldn't it?   And I really think that where love is involved, you can't tell how these things will play out.  But I don't think you truly love somebody like that if you have an interest at stake. And it's probably the better part of honesty for folks like you and me, who have these ideological commitments and beliefs and principles, to simply admit that to ourselves. I know I don't meet the grade of love very often--that's why preaching about it is so fun.

I'm not telling anybody how they should behave.  You did the best you could, Glow -- I fully believe that.  You and the others who were really triggered by these posts have had the hardest work to do in this thread.  There's no blame on my end, no mistake I really perceive that I wouldn't make myself!

(03-10-2017, 10:45 PM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]Since you see the wounds and arent wounded by this issue this could have been something you did. Why should we the women have to as usual be the passive understanding ones.

Oh, trust me: I have my wounds.  And this is triggering for me in about the typical male way you would suspect.    And I have zero to say about how anybody should have behaved.  I mean, there's no conflict really between seeing a wounded person and expressing your own view firmly.

As for me?  I did the best I could.  I feel like my goal was exactly to do as you suggest, except that I'm not willing to spend a lot of time keeping up with the thread.

(03-10-2017, 10:45 PM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]He might have decided we few women don't suck but he still would hate all women but us.  I live that daily, it changes nothing.
I have tons of guy friends that care about me because I'm an anomaly to them but thinking I'm good doesn't make them generalize it to women are good trust me. Sometimes people have to just be told they are not going to be silent while they perpetuate hate.

Yes.  He might.  I'm not here to "mansplain" how you should be a feminist.  I'm not offering you a way to ideologically triumph or to vacate the dread of patriarchal supremacy.  I'm here to offer a reflection from a different point of view, one that may or may not have value to you.

As somebody who considers himself a radical egalitarian leftist, I do think it's hard to see oneself in others when too much ideology is at play.  Ideologies are largely tools for disciplining our minds and voices towards a party line, towards consistency and resolution of conflicting interests.  If you see somebody else as in their essence a misogynist or communist or libertarian, you're probably doing active work to filter out all the other qualities they bring to a situation.  And so you are actively filtering out the entire Creator standing in front of you, not giving it the love you could.  Makes one a better debater and a worse Creator, IMHO.

(03-10-2017, 10:45 PM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]As an aside ALL women know some feminism goes to far. We ALL know it but have you seen other social movements? The leading edge is ALWAYS crazy aggressive and single minded. Greenpeace, PITA, racial movements that basically become anti white. They are the ones that are uncomfortable but swing the pendulum past the mark so over time things settle in the middle.

We are not dumb we know things go to far but since things have been WAY TO FAR the other way for WAY TO LONG this is how they bring attention.

Did any if you even read the channeling Jade posted? I see lots of likes but it explained exactly that.

Well, I have to point out: if you think love is something you offer when it will yield results of which you approve, then nothing I'm saying is going to make much sense.  

I appreciate that you see the imbalance inherent in these movements.  I think most of us on the Left look at our institutions and behavior patterns as sometimes having run away with themselves, being contrived and at times clunky responses to real threats and forces.  I think we'd do well to voice our dissent within our own movements more often, to make sure we keep those things we're involved in pointed at love even if it has to go through a bit of political posturing along the way.

But this doesn't speak to what I'm hearing as your main point here: "Why does our side always have to show understanding and compassion for the other?  Why can' t their side take on that responsibility for once?  Why do we once again have to swallow our pride and sacrifice for the greater progress of everybody?"

And I don't really have an answer for that, except this: because exactly this is what true activism is about.  Everything else is ideology, posturing, platforming, rhetoric, etc.  But at the moment when you show your vulnerability, you show your strength.  At the moment you show how willing you are to put aside the contrived rhetoric of leftism and connect with somebody on a human level, you show how flimsy their own ideological identity is.  At the moment you show you care what the other person is saying and how the other person is hurting, you served something greater than both of you, more important than anything that could be codified in a manifesto or law.

And I know you know all this.  I'm not here to convince you of something new; I'm just trying to remind people of something they already know and believe.  

For what it's worth: I'm very susceptible to getting pulled into exactly this kind of debate, Glow.  It's what I excel at.  I feel like I'm pretty knowledgable about all the weak spots in the arguments here.  I could get involved, stick up for the women, and fight the men.  But what would be the point?  I can do that anywhere.

I come here because I want something more, and if the forum doesn't get to that level all the time, that's ok, and I'll do what I can to help.  Everything that happened here was perfect, that's the mystery I'm working on grokking.

(03-12-2017, 12:51 AM)SMC Wrote: [ -> ]hows about we live our lives being as kind and helpful and loving as possible to people in our daily lives?

Hows about men here stop asking us to explain and justify but become new and improved people in your daily lives wherever you can?

Be good to yourselves so you will be peaceful at heart and be able to be good to others.

BUMP

(03-12-2017, 04:36 AM)SMC Wrote: [ -> ]- I joined in recently because it was an opportunity to have solidarity for female members to express together what men have difficulty believing was even happening here: ie: sexism and privilege.

I don't think it's quite that simple; there are many aspects to the issues at hand. There is no denying in the 3D world that women are prejudiced against. But aside from any catalyst factors which may be in place and possibly chosen by the eternal self, there are considerations that go beyond two simple and delineated sides of an issue.

Consider abuse in a dysfunctional family, let's say the father is alcoholic and physically and emotionally abusive. If anyone has read about the dynamics of these situations, it is pointed out that although some need to confront the abuser and express the hurt and blame, there is no way to actually pinpoint blame because the father was hurt by his parents, and they were hurt by theirs, and it goes back endlessly. The way to change this pattern is to break it, and just blaming won't do that.

I'm not an advocate of forgiveness because I think it's a result rather than a primary event. What I mean by that is you cannot force yourself to forgive. It happens after you deal with the issue and I think the key is to move past blame and see others as self. We are all fallible, all learning and evolving, all ignorant to certain things, all in pain, all struggling with certain aspects of life here.

(03-12-2017, 04:36 AM)SMC Wrote: [ -> ]You don't want a 'thought police' atmosphere - I want men to be able to express their needs and hurts and concerns - but the content posted to this thread for example - was so far out of synch with the guidelines of B4's consensus reality - and this is just is another thread causing a whole shitstorm of hurt, disharmony and it brought a whole lot of anti female hatred out of a person which when combined with other posts from men became really "de-tuned". For the record - e-s likely has had severe abuse and wounding from a significant and severely imbalanced toxic female role model in his life - and feminism does not involve denying that some women can be very toxic, vengeful, imbalanced and dangerous. However, short of independent sociopathy/psychopathy the imbalance of an abusive patriarchy is the usual cause.

Certainly I don't want a tightly controlled forum either. Can we not see that opening a "can of worms" is the very step needed in order to surface ingrained and hidden beliefs and only then can they be dealt with? Hurt is going to happen, there's no way around that. Without unearthing subconscious and millennia-old subconscious triggers, how is real change going to happen?

The question here could be, What do I want to happen in this conversation?

(03-12-2017, 04:36 AM)SMC Wrote: [ -> ]To finish up - I don't want to be on a forum where there isn't basic understanding of injustice.

Not everyone is the same SMC. We all have triggers and they spring out of both ignorance and subconscious programming. It is one thing to look for validation and understanding, and another thing to affect change.

(03-12-2017, 04:36 AM)SMC Wrote: [ -> ]There's so much dysfunction and ugliness and stress that is breaking our hearts and threatening to break our spirits.

To find it here?  

That's nothing new as this forum is made up of individuals on their own paths. I get this as I went through the same thing in the original "meat" thread. At first I was incredulous that everyone here did not get something so fundamental (in my mind) as stopping animal torture and slaughter and agreeing that plant-based eating was more compassionate. What I learned from that journey through thousands of posts—much of it very hostile which to me was a good thing as catalyst was engaged—is not to make assumptions, to really listen to views I normally would have discounted, and to participate with an open mind. I also learned to express myself much more clearly which required deeply penetrating inquiry into my own intentions, thinking, and emotions. 

(03-12-2017, 04:36 AM)SMC Wrote: [ -> ]I came here to find kindred, family - support.

How misguided that was!

I think this is a common disillusionment. But I feel you are implying that the people here are idiots, or uneducated, or not as evolved as you, or some other thing that places the burden on others. For me, I would look to myself to explore this feeling. And I have done just that many times in my life so I'm not just giving this lip service.

(03-12-2017, 04:36 AM)SMC Wrote: [ -> ]But I have grown more assertive and supportive of myself. And that's worth quite a lot.

Then there has been one good outcome for you.

Quote:Certainly I don't want a tightly controlled forum either. Can we not see that opening a "can of worms" is the very step needed in order to surface ingrained and hidden beliefs and only then can they be dealt with? Hurt is going to happen, there's no way around that. Without unearthing subconscious and millennia-old subconscious triggers, how is real change going to happen?

The question here could be, What do I want to happen in this conversation?

OMG. So very well said, Diana. This is just perfect in so many ways. I challenge everybody in the conversation to take a step back and ask yourself: "What do I want to happen in this conversation?"