2006.01.01 'Failure' of the plan that this logos chose

[Turtle]

literal definitions of infinity will not avail in this level of philosophizing. because it will generally involve mathematical or size related definitions.

From Ra's 6d perspective, they are aware that every finite entity is the Infinite Creator. If we are to believe Ra's words, then they are in a level of awareness where the paradoxes of lower densities are resolved, or put another way, they are aware of the harmony of all paradoxes. It is then only our limited awareness, not our ability to use logic, that keeps this conversation going.

This is why both you and I are correct. I am a finite separate being. I am also an infinite being unified with all that exists. We are just not aware of our infinite unified mind, we are only aware of our finite separate minds.....from Ra's perspective at least. And yes, we are speaking of mathematical concepts here. Finite beings (single AND plural) vs Infinite being (immeasurable). It is a problem of math as well as spirituality/philosophy.

Godspeed!

[LsavedSmeD]

literal definitions of infinity will not avail in this level of philosophizing. because it will generally involve mathematical or size related definitions.

From Ra's 6d perspective, they are aware that every finite entity is the Infinite Creator. If we are to believe Ra's words, then they are in a level of awareness where the paradoxes of lower densities are resolved, or put another way, they are aware of the harmony of all paradoxes. It is then only our limited awareness, not our ability to use logic, that keeps this conversation going.

This is why both you and I are correct. I am a finite separate being. I am also an infinite being unified with all that exists. We are just not aware of our infinite unified mind, we are only aware of our finite separate minds.....from Ra's perspective at least. And yes, we are speaking of mathematical concepts here. Finite beings (single AND plural) vs Infinite being (immeasurable). It is a problem of math as well as spirituality/philosophy.

Godspeed!

Nicely put, in fact I believe the argument is resolved as our limited perspective dims our sight of what is behind the curtains.

[unity100]

From Ra's 6d perspective, they are aware that every finite entity is the Infinite Creator. If we are to believe Ra's words, then they are in a level of awareness where the paradoxes of lower densities are resolved, or put another way, they are aware of the harmony of all paradoxes. It is then only our limited awareness, not our ability to use logic, that keeps this conversation going.

you are misjudging it.

infinity is a whole. if you take any part out of it, despite the part you take out is going to be 'none' compared to infinity, the infinity wont be the same because it lost one of its subset members.

this makes the subset member infinitely important, and also an integral part of the whole.

however, it doesnt make that subset member the infinity itself. if it was infinity, you couldnt take it out, because to take it out you would have to take infinity out.

as for Ra's words and understanding, they are themselves, correctly too, state that they are not perfect, and are in learning. it would be wrong to take anything they say, about the densities ahead of them, as unmistakable truth. they are being taught too, after all, even as we speak. moreover, being harmonious, and paradoxes being 'resolved' in 6th density doesnt make anything infinite. just, the + and - are put together, and they are balanced.

We are just not aware of our infinite unified mind, we are only aware of our finite separate minds.....

then that means you are just finite. if you are not aware and manifesting something, you cannot be that thing. you can only have that potential, and potential is not something that is in acting. you can only become infinite, when you actually manifest and exercise that infinity, at which point it would make you infinite, and all the things here and before would be irrelevant, but, irrelevant only from that point on. so, all the realities you face, all rules, all concepts, all illusions, are valid for you.

[Turtle]

If the state of separation that we perceive ourselves to be in, is just an illusion, then we are not truly separated from Infinity. This is why I say it is simply a matter of perspective and awareness. Something that is possible, and something that is actual, is not just a difference between real and fake. Real and fake to whom? A potential outcome of scenarios may never happen in your future, but that does not mean they are not actuated for another being you have never known to exist (an alternate version of yourself in a different universe). I do not see anything existing before our very eyes as something that has been "disconnected" from infinity. I see the world around me as a very, very solid looking mirage, so to speak.

Godspeed!

[Richard]

Who are we to judge the failure (or eventual success) of a cosmic experiment measured in the span of human years? A million years of human experience measured agains a universe whose inception spans billions of years? As far as we know? Because our personal lives are not perfect…or our remembered history isn’t everything we imagined it should be? Therefore the experiment is a failure?

because, we, as entities have the precise duplicate of the logic of this existence, this creation in ourselves.

simply, the 8 level energy center infinity concept, inwards and outwards.

simply, because the galaxy and then universe are entities like you and me, with 8 energy centers each, and 8 within each center and so forth.

therefore, just like how you meditate, and try to open all your chakras in a bright, clear, unmuddied and equal manner, universe has to do the same things.

anything that causes extended blockage of any chakra, is something that needs to be fixed, for that chakra.

this is just one of the approaches. you can approach in numerous ways to conclude the failure of this local plan.

It’s the philosophical equivalent of 5 yr olds who think they have the way of the world figured out…yet have no concept of money..much less balancing a checkbook or driving a car.

quite wrong.

first, 3rd density entities seeking to open 4d chakras, generally have no business with such information - chakras, centers, creation, evolution and whatnot. they basically live the 3d experiences, and try to come to a conclusion for their orientation, generally without knowing it.

it is generally wanderers' desire to consciously know about stuff like these, and therefore it is highly likely that most of the ones reading these information are wanderers.

if, you check wanderers' composition, you will see that most of them are from 6th density. if you check Ra's statements, most of them in 1980 were from Ra, an entity which was speedily closing down fast to 7th density.

if you think that the heavy 3d existence accelerates spiritual development, it is easily concludeable that there could be quite a few of those from 6th density that are in, or nearing 7th density.

it is also possible that, there were wanderers who came from 7th density start themselves.

if, from this point, you move to the fact that, 7th density existence is the existence that speedily closes the infinity, the octave, to the state of unison with everything which you so unwisely understand as a 'creator' outside yourself, you can easily conclude that an entity near the end of 7th density, as Ra and others put it, is an entity that already learned itself to the degree that it can in this octave, and after a certain point, leaves all the experiences and any kind of identity it had behind, and merges to infinity.

since, it is already said by many that 'you contain the creator', knowing yourself, would mean knowing the 'creator' you speak of.

therefore, it is highly possible that there are 6-7th density entities who already know enough of that 'creator' you speak of (as if it was something outside you), and therefore, there are those who quite easily can conclude the failure of any particular plan.

that is, unless, that plan was intended to TEACH what should NOT be done, and what is extreme, of course.

in both cases, that would directly mean that, what is happening in this solar system are stuff that should NOT be done, lest if you do them things end up like this.

Quo’ said it best when they said perhaps you (meaning us) should ask the creator….

'ask the creator', whereas you are yourself 'creator' and include the 'creator' inside you, as the very source you speak of says ?

in that case, asking that creator, would mean asking yourself. which is, something you are not doing, according to what you say.

Understanding…or perhaps a better term…feeling that one is a Wanderer or upper density entity stuck on this planet doesn’t necessarily make it so. You or I may just be maladjusted to society in general. We’ll never know who or what we are (or were) until we pass from this lifetime.

Every statement of supposed spiritual knowledge in all these pages is just opinion, supposition and philosophy seasoned with a liberal dose of personal beliefs….and faith.

Actual spiritual fact remains to be seen….and perhaps only truly understood in hindsight since even our supposed 7th density teachers admit to not totally understanding the ways of the creator themselves

Richard

[unity100]

Understanding…or perhaps a better term…feeling that one is a Wanderer or upper density entity stuck on this planet doesn’t necessarily make it so. You or I may just be maladjusted to society in general. We’ll never know who or what we are (or were) until we pass from this lifetime.

these all depend on the soul, individual, their life plans and their choices.

Every statement of supposed spiritual knowledge in all these pages is just opinion, supposition and philosophy seasoned with a liberal dose of personal beliefs….and faith.

there are things that dont change with opinion, supposition, and philosophy or belief.

action <=> reaction. never changes.

nothing comes from inexistence, nothing goes to inexistence. never changes.

infinity. never changes.

these are basic nature of existence, not even reality. these dont change whether in this local of universe, on a neutron star, or in a potential antimatter universe.

Actual spiritual fact remains to be seen….and perhaps only truly understood in hindsight since even our supposed 7th density teachers admit to not totally understanding the ways of the creator themselves

Richard

not being able to totally understand the 'ways of the creator' does not mean that you cant understand it at all, or, you should give up trying to understand.

i put 'ways of the creator' is in quotes, because, in the context you used, it describes something out of your existence, the nature of the existence you are in, and more like something about a patriarchical parental father figure singular entity out of middle east.

the 'ways of the creator' is in the existence. looking at how existence functions, one can understand those ways.

[Turtle]

the 'ways of the creator' is in the existence. looking at how existence functions, one can understand those ways.

Yes but to what degree? We do not perceive all that exists. We perceive as much as we are able to, but this is limited input. I will take my leave of this discussion because I have nothing more I'd like to go back and forth on, but it has been fun!

I hope my attempts to communicate my viewpoint have been sufficiently clear, because this is my main motivation for participating in this website now (communicating clearly with others). I will now return to my preferred role with this site and lurk the boards, for now.

Godspeed!

[Richard]

Unity wrote:
"...i put 'ways of the creator' is in quotes, because, in the context you used, it describes something out of your existence, the nature of the existence you are in, and more like something about a patriarchical parental father figure singular entity out of middle east...."

I think you may be inserting your own prejudices into the conversation. In your "opinion" , my statement describes a "singular father figure". Nothing could be farther from the truth. I choose to call that "the ways of the creator" because I lack the words/concepts to accurately describe the motivations and goals of intelligent infinity. Or..creator...if you will. It is simply a label for the sake of discussion.

I'm saying that humans, in general, cannot perceive everything. Our physical limitations alone preclude us from experiencing on a local level various wavelengths of light and sound. Observing the universe doesn't bestow understanding. If one is to be totally honest with themselves...observing the universe and/or existance in general ought to make you even more certain of how little you know.

You...seem to say that by observing existance through your limited human experience, you can then accurately draw these conclusions. I say thats incredibly shortsighted. But thats just my opinion.

Richard

[unity100]

You...seem to say that by observing existance through your limited human experience, you can then accurately draw these conclusions. I say thats incredibly shortsighted. But thats just my opinion.

Richard

it is ironic that some of you people talk about how infinite existence is, and how infinite we are, and talk about the power of soul, previous incarnations, wanderers, dimensions and astral planes AND then talk about limited human experience.

a homo sapiens sapiens body is a hominoid monkey body that is used to incarnate in this particular 3 density social complex.

being incarnated in it does not nullify the soul that incarnates into it, or erase its previous incarnations, its frequency level, and the wisdom it garnered.

it is up to the person to work and remove those limitations, and one of that kind of work, includes the work of the mind, the intellect, the wisdom.

wisdom will not come by 'loving everything' and 'being one' with 'the one'. the requirement to 5th density graduation (and therefore very probably the requirement to activate the 5th density energy center in any given life) is sufficient amount of wisdom. in 5th density the dance of existence is learned, its ways, its wisdom, its knowledge, and then in 6th density, love is AGAIN balanced with wisdom. http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?ses...=1&ss=1#15 not, wisdom is balanced with love, unless, you are approaching 6th density from negative path.

therefore, just loving and accepting everything, and being 'one', and leaving the rest to 'mystery' and 'we cant know because we are just ....... ', will not avail in learning the ways of wisdom, the knowledge of existence, and move the entity towards the density of co creation. leave aside the fact that, up to a third of the concept of existing in a mind/body/spirit complex, is 'mind' itself.

in short, one needs to think and reach newer horizons with his/her mind. 'but who are we to ....' sentence structure is one that is very detrimental in that regard.

and now, in the proper point to make this comment ; i have referenced the patriarchical, rigid middle eastern god figures in the above post, because, the 'thou art but a subject', 'humans cant fathom' concepts are heavily intervowen to, and endemic in philosophies/religions that are out of that region. in no region/culture other than middle east, belittling, humbling of capacities of humans, or things that discourage them from reaching new horizons are found. actually exactly to the contrary.

[Richard]

Again..you sidestep our conversation by referencing the beliefs of "you people". Stereotypes and all...

By the same token...Wisdom does not come by simply saying that you have addressed "ways of wisdom"..and explored/observed...and "removed" those limitations. You can't bestow wisdom on yourself. You can't say..."I am wise and your are not". Well..you can, but its meaningless.

The wisdom of another human is granted him by his fellow entities...who find his being inspirational and uplifting. And whose living of the wisdom oriented life makes others want to follow in his ways and learning. I don't see that here.

I think we should agree to disagree and end this conversation.

Richard

[unity100]

Again..you sidestep our conversation by referencing the beliefs of "you people". Stereotypes and all...

you are misinterpreting yourself. i didnt say 'you people'.

many in the west are under the influence of the phenomenon i have described, due to most of the cultures of the west and middle east have been taken their religions from middle east, regardless of how close or far to their respective religious institutions.

you dont see similar traits in american indians, or chinese.

observing common traits does not make 'stereotypes'. if so, we wouldnt be able to have generic classificators like 'building', 'ship', or 'river'. despite only a few of these are the same in their respective genre, they all exhibit the same characteristics in various regards.

By the same token...Wisdom does not come by simply saying that you have addressed "ways of wisdom"..and explored/observed...and "removed" those limitations. You can't bestow wisdom on yourself. You can't say..."I am wise and your are not". Well..you can, but its meaningless.

The wisdom of another human is granted him by his fellow entities...who find his being inspirational and uplifting.

wisdom, is not granted by external sources. had it been as such, 5th dimension entities would not be able to conduct their 5th dimension work in almost total isolation from any other entity, as per Ra describes. also, 5th dimension is a dimension which allows entities to be able to evolve without having to be a part of a social complex, in contrast to the 4th, and 6th densities that mandate it for their work, and their graduation.

And whose living of the wisdom oriented life makes others want to follow in his ways and learning. I don't see that here.

I think we should agree to disagree and end this conversation.

wisdom is not something that is imparted and shared by those who are doing such a work, so that others will 'follow' his ways and learning. that format is a negative format. following such a format and believing in it would also be a negative format.

wisdom is imparted in order to enrich the knowledge of the participants in a mutual manner.

in that regard, participating in a working that is meant for that end, but then exhibiting a mindset that discourages, than encourages the usage of wisdom and intelligence is contradictory in itself. wisdom will not come to the one who thinks 'who am i to ....'.

thank you for your participation in the discussion. audieu. i will be participating.

[Ali Quadir]

and now, in the proper point to make this comment ; i have referenced the patriarchical, rigid middle eastern god figures in the above post, because, the 'thou art but a subject', 'humans cant fathom' concepts are heavily intervowen to, and endemic in philosophies/religions that are out of that region. in no region/culture other than middle east, belittling, humbling of capacities of humans, or things that discourage them from reaching new horizons are found. actually exactly to the contrary.

Your "propaganda" is not in accordance with reality. The shamanic tribes before and around any mayor religions including those you speak of belittled and humbled human beings. Mayans sacrificed humans, just like the druids did. Egyptians had slaves.

And while the far eastern religions are very advanced you will find monasteries there that require complete obedience of it's inhabitants. Just like everywhere else.

This is not part of the original religions. However the process of structuring and institutionalizing requires and causes the belittling and discouragement you speak of..

Let me assure you that these negatives are the product of human interaction. They have little to do with the original religions but they are quickly incorporated into them, and obviously into everything else we do. If you want to play soccer. They're going to downplay your abilities to keep you playing like a team member.

You really have an issue with the major religions haven't you? What happened to you? What did participants of those religions do to you?

The notion that the logos can fail, and that we as subsubsub logoi are capable of figuring this out and blaming the big old goof is really silly. It's a gut feeling due to the fact that the speaker is intimately aware of the distortions between his desire and his reality.

However, it is the speaker who is failing his plans. Not the galactic logos. Your simple mind cannot fathom the logos. You can only connect to it and express it. This is not an intellectual process. This is the emotional process of projection. It's well documented. Look it up.

[Richard]

Unity wrote:

you are misinterpreting yourself. i didnt say 'you people'.


Unity wrote:

"....it is ironic that some of you people talk about how infinite existence is, and how infinite we are, and talk about the power of soul, previous incarnations, wanderers, dimensions and astral planes AND then talk about limited human experience.....

-------------------

Nuff said...

Richard

[unity100]

Unity wrote:

you are misinterpreting yourself. i didnt say 'you people'.


Unity wrote:

"....it is ironic that some of you people talk about how infinite existence is, and how infinite we are, and talk about the power of soul, previous incarnations, wanderers, dimensions and astral planes AND then talk about limited human experience.....

-------------------

Nuff said...

Richard

notice there are no references to patriarchical religions in that sentence.

---

Your "propaganda" is not in accordance with reality. The shamanic tribes before and around any mayor religions including those you speak of belittled and humbled human beings. Mayans sacrificed humans, just like the druids did. Egyptians had slaves.

And while the far eastern religions are very advanced you will find monasteries there that require complete obedience of it's inhabitants. Just like everywhere else.

your examples are irrelevant.

'belittling and humbling' human beings is not relevant to discouragement and prevention of the religion members from thinking about existence, 'god', and the secrets of creation.

mayans sacrificed humans, yet mayans themselves were not forbidden from learning and thinking in any religious way.

egyptians had slaves, however there was the 'death' school, which was dedicated to studying mysteries of death and afterlife, and even greeks came from overseas to study there. not to mention that there were tens of major gods, which were maintaned and kept with their own priests, and you could worship and adopt the philosophy of whichever suited you.

you have confused 'obedience for politics' with philosophy.

This is not part of the original religions. However the process of structuring and institutionalizing requires and causes the belittling and discouragement you speak of..

Let me assure you that these negatives are the product of human interaction. They have little to do with the original religions but they are quickly incorporated into them, and obviously into everything else we do. If you want to play soccer. They're going to downplay your abilities to keep you playing like a team member.

political obedience requirement of civilizations in various brutal forms since the dawn of time is something,

incorporating religion, belief, afterlife into it, and using that as a tool to control the populations in physical life is another.

the second, is the invention of middle east. some time after agriculture spread as a technology, the priest-king culture started, and all the priest-kings have started to invent various gods and claimed they are its prophet, and required obedience from all others. some time after, a group of babylonian locals have gained the upper hand, and declared their god as above all others. this is how the 'one god' concept started.

thereafter, it was used to propagate political agenda of the priest class.

You really have an issue with the major religions haven't you? What happened to you? What did participants of those religions do to you?

my hobby is history. in my spare time i research various subjects.

'what did participants of those centrist middle east religions did to this world', is a veery long topic, with hundreds of lines of subjects, each of which are subject matters in themselves that one can prepare papers on.

see.

its 2010, we are talking about channeled material, densities and whatnot, however there are 2 people who are fervently trying to defend the 'we cannot understand existence' concept that is built into these particular religions, instead of opening their brains into new possibilities, and brainstorming about the existence instead.

even this, is in itself detrimental.

The notion that the logos can fail, and that we as subsubsub logoi are capable of figuring this out and blaming the big old goof is really silly. It's a gut feeling due to the fact that the speaker is intimately aware of the distortions between his desire and his reality.

However, it is the speaker who is failing his plans. Not the galactic logos. Your simple mind cannot fathom the logos. You can only connect to it and express it. This is not an intellectual process. This is the emotional process of projection. It's well documented. Look it up.

first of all, in case you havent followed the topic, this is not only 'my gut feeling' and my 'desire'. a long q'uo quote was made in earlier pages of this topic, and i have talked on that.

according to what you said, quo also has a simple mind that failed, because they - god forbid - took the liberty of mentioning that this logo's plan was faulty.

P: My question came up in the last session. It was surrounding Maldek and Mars. Why does it seem like such a current theme for planets to be destroying themselves? Not planets but peoples of the planets, destroying themselves, their cultures! Is it central to this solar system or is it a common theme in third density?

We are those of Q’uo, and are aware of your query, my brother. The pattern, my brother, we would agree is well advanced and is indeed endemic to this region of space controlled by the Logos, or shall we say, sub-Logos that is your sun. The creation that was designed by this entity used a great deal of free will and a heavy veiling so that it takes actual effort for most people to retrieve their memory of the larger picture that moves beyond one incarnation into the grand design of the creation itself and you as citizens of eternity.

We are not saying that the Creator has not gained a rich harvest of new information about Itself from this particular design of creation. However it does seem that the combination of advanced free will and advanced veiling of the actual metaphysical situation have created conditions that are unusually likely to produce the thought pattern of aggression in order to get one’s way. Since it is so difficult to see that we are all one in your third-density experience, since the veiling is so complete, it becomes possible for entities to contemplate ending another’s life with less discomfort than if they were contemplating ending their own life. This has made it possible for entities to become habituated to the destruction of other selves.

im leaving aside the fact that you dont know that this heavy veiling plan is active in approximately up to 7 logoses (planetary systems) that are of this locale (outer rim of the galxy), and Ra also puts out that veil is not in place in places that are close to the galactic sun.

meaning, there is no veil, when you start to get closer to galactic logos. leave aside heavy/light veiling, there is no veil.

i was talking about the local sun, sol, and the failure of the plan sol chose, yet, you have gone as far to mistake it as galactic logos, commenting without understanding, and contradicted yourself :

if this veil is here in this local logos, and its not faulty, then it is the galactic logos that is faulty, because there is no veil as you get close to the centre of galaxy.

if, galactic logos is right, then, this local logos is faulty, because it implements a veil system.

it becomes a contradiction, but, with that 'we cant just fathom it' mindset of the old middle eastern religions you are trying to defend, you can just quit trying to work on this and just say 'we cant just fathom it'.

its an escape route, in addition to a control mechanism that is used by priest-king cults.

..........

notice, how fervently you are defending some 'one god', that, if exists in the form you believe it to be, would not need anyone's defense. you have even justified to go to lengths to not only accept yourself as incapable, and let go of your intellectual capacity to use in understanding existence, but also you are trying to lord it onto another of your fellow beings, by openly declaring that his/her mind is 'simple' and cannot fathom the creation. you are basically trying to limit another of your fellow beings in his studies, understanding of existence. it so becomes that, the questioning of the motives and plans of one LOCAL logos, that is a part of the infinite existence, and which is stated repeated times by Ra, quo and many other channelings as a being that is LEARNING, becomes a blasphemy in your eyes.

[LsavedSmeD]

You...seem to say that by observing existance through your limited human experience, you can then accurately draw these conclusions. I say thats incredibly shortsighted. But thats just my opinion.

Richard

it is ironic that some of you people talk about how infinite existence is, and how infinite we are, and talk about the power of soul, previous incarnations, wanderers, dimensions and astral planes AND then talk about limited human experience.

a homo sapiens sapiens body is a hominoid monkey body that is used to incarnate in this particular 3 density social complex.

being incarnated in it does not nullify the soul that incarnates into it, or erase its previous incarnations, its frequency level, and the wisdom it garnered.

it is up to the person to work and remove those limitations, and one of that kind of work, includes the work of the mind, the intellect, the wisdom.

wisdom will not come by 'loving everything' and 'being one' with 'the one'. the requirement to 5th density graduation (and therefore very probably the requirement to activate the 5th density energy center in any given life) is sufficient amount of wisdom. in 5th density the dance of existence is learned, its ways, its wisdom, its knowledge, and then in 6th density, love is AGAIN balanced with wisdom. http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?ses...=1&ss=1#15 not, wisdom is balanced with love, unless, you are approaching 6th density from negative path.

therefore, just loving and accepting everything, and being 'one', and leaving the rest to 'mystery' and 'we cant know because we are just ....... ', will not avail in learning the ways of wisdom, the knowledge of existence, and move the entity towards the density of co creation. leave aside the fact that, up to a third of the concept of existing in a mind/body/spirit complex, is 'mind' itself.

in short, one needs to think and reach newer horizons with his/her mind. 'but who are we to ....' sentence structure is one that is very detrimental in that regard.

and now, in the proper point to make this comment ; i have referenced the patriarchical, rigid middle eastern god figures in the above post, because, the 'thou art but a subject', 'humans cant fathom' concepts are heavily intervowen to, and endemic in philosophies/religions that are out of that region. in no region/culture other than middle east, belittling, humbling of capacities of humans, or things that discourage them from reaching new horizons are found. actually exactly to the contrary.

You are correct, but by having the mindset of loving and being one will put you on the path that you so choose as that is the point to this current density, to choose.

[Ali Quadir]

With the obvious "but" of course that mind is equated to wisdom. Which it most definitely is not.

The mystery is called the mystery not because of the absence of knowledge. Mystery is a Mystery because it is beyond mind. Not because it is unknown for now. Information inside the mystery can be comprehended by the human because the human as is rightly stated is much more than mind, but it cannot be expressed in the mind.

This insight into the mystery will come by being one with all. And "love" is the key to that. It's not the standard love of every day usage. It is much closer to compassion than egotistical desire.

[unity100]

You are correct, but by having the mindset of loving and being one will put you on the path that you so choose as that is the point to this current density, to choose.

now there is an important point here - just as many, including Ra, said, such material as we are talking will be most attractive to the wanderers over any others.

therefore, it will mean that most of the people who are working on such material are wanderers, who are already above 3rd density. who are also here to activate their higher energy centers, and smoothen the planetary vibrations. in addition to the specific services they can render by using those centers and their earlier learning.

so it becomes a matter of paramount importance for any wanderer here not to mistake himself/herself/themselves as 3rd density entities trying to make a choice, and act like them, but to speedily work on activating their centers to aid the planetary vibrations.

after all, this was what they have come here for, in the first place.

---

With the obvious "but" of course that mind is equated to wisdom. Which it most definitely is not.

it is. mind, is the tool that is used for understanding the 'dance' of existence as Ra puts it. it is an integral part of existence in mind/body/spirit complexes of all dimensions. knowledge, experience, understanding of workings of the existential systems are perceived through mind.

.............

it feels more like you are rather mistaking the rebalancing of love with wisdom in 6th density, which has a lot of the emotional undertones you speak of, with the wisdom work in 5th density.

yes, there is such a concept in which emotion and wisdom is balanced with each other in 6th density, but, wisdom, and its work through mind is STILL a part of this balance, and cannot be just forfeited and ignored for any reason.

The mystery is called the mystery not because of the absence of knowledge. Mystery is a Mystery because it is beyond mind. Not because it is unknown for now. Information inside the mystery can be comprehended by the human because the human as is rightly stated is much more than mind, but it cannot be expressed in the mind.

This insight into the mystery will come by being one with all. And "love" is the key to that.

the mystery is called the mystery because it is yet in our future to discover.

what we know is what we know, and not mystery, because we have uncovered it in our 'past'.

if we sit, and just let go of our horizons because there is an infinite amount of mystery in our future to be discovered, and just because our mind currently cannot fathom all of that infinity, our mind will never progress and we will never be able to keep discovering any portion of that mystery.

unfortunately, noone will be able to be 'one' with anything, before they can also master and balance the usage of wisdom.

and no, love is not the key to everything. as Ra so aptly puts it, some people mistake that particular focus of the creator, and worship it as if it was the creator itself.

love is just a facet of existence, and wisdom is another. they need to be merged, and you cant merge two things by ignoring one of them.

[Monica]

it is ironic that some of you people talk about how infinite existence is, and how infinite we are, and talk about the power of soul, previous incarnations, wanderers, dimensions and astral planes AND then talk about limited human experience.

a homo sapiens sapiens body is a hominoid monkey body that is used to incarnate in this particular 3 density social complex.

being incarnated in it does not nullify the soul that incarnates into it, or erase its previous incarnations, its frequency level, and the wisdom it garnered.

it is up to the person to work and remove those limitations, and one of that kind of work, includes the work of the mind, the intellect, the wisdom.

I think it depends on the curriculum each particular entity is enrolled in, during his/her time here in 3D Earth. Some are enrolled in Love 101, and their goal is simply to make the choice and graduate to 4D. Wanderers, however, may be simultaneously brushing up on Love and working on a mission to raise the vibration of the planet, while being enrolled in a higher density course of study, such as Wisdom.

The veil exists for a reason. Depending on that particular soul's chosen curriculum, it may or may not be in the best interest of the entity to penetrate the veil. Doing that might even be a distraction for some and get in the way of the work they chose to accomplish.

In any case, even if we do pursue penetration of the veil and get glimpses of the greater reality, can we totally understand the mysteries of the Creator while in a 3D body? Even Ra stated that they have teachers too, and the octaves above them remain a mystery.

wisdom will not come by 'loving everything' and 'being one' with 'the one'. the requirement to 5th density graduation (and therefore very probably the requirement to activate the 5th density energy center in any given life) is sufficient amount of wisdom. in 5th density the dance of existence is learned, its ways, its wisdom, its knowledge, and then in 6th density, love is AGAIN balanced with wisdom. http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?ses...=1&ss=1#15 not, wisdom is balanced with love, unless, you are approaching 6th density from negative path.

True. So it really just depends on what each soul has chosen to learn in this particular incarnation. Perhaps some Wanderers have indeed already learned Wisdom, and in their wisdom have chosen to veil their 3D selves from the deeper mysteries, in order to be of service during this time of Harvest.

therefore, just loving and accepting everything, and being 'one', and leaving the rest to 'mystery' and 'we cant know because we are just ....... ', will not avail in learning the ways of wisdom, the knowledge of existence, and move the entity towards the density of co creation. leave aside the fact that, up to a third of the concept of existing in a mind/body/spirit complex, is 'mind' itself.

This presupposes that 'learning the ways of wisdom' is part of that soul's agenda.

in short, one needs to think and reach newer horizons with his/her mind.

Perhaps one does. And perhaps others don't.

'but who are we to ....' sentence structure is one that is very detrimental in that regard.

Possibly. Or, it might be an expression of humbleness when marveling at the vastness and grandness of the Creator's ultimate design.

and now, in the proper point to make this comment ; i have referenced the patriarchical, rigid middle eastern god figures in the above post, because, the 'thou art but a subject', 'humans cant fathom' concepts are heavily intervowen to, and endemic in philosophies/religions that are out of that region. in no region/culture other than middle east, belittling, humbling of capacities of humans, or things that discourage them from reaching new horizons are found. actually exactly to the contrary.

Hmmm...good point! I haven't studied a lot of other religions, so I can't speak from personal knowledge that no other religion has that "I am wretched" element, but I agree with you that these religions sure do have it. And I agree that it was injected into those religions as an STS element. I find it disturbing when I hear people of those religions speak like that on a daily basis. It's so ingrained in them, that any suggestion that they might actually be beautiful, magnificent beings often tends to frighten them. I find this sad.

I agree that, in those cases, references to "helpless, stupid, wretched me" may be a holdover from having been entrenched in those religions. But I don't perceive that as having been the case here. My interpretation of the comment "Who are we to plumb the mysteries of the UniVerse" was one of marvel and humility, rather than religious brainwashing.

[unity100]

I think it depends on the curriculum each particular entity is enrolled in, during his/her time here in 3D Earth. Some are enrolled in Love 101, and their goal is simply to make the choice and graduate to 4D. Wanderers, however, may be simultaneously brushing up on Love and working on a mission to raise the vibration of the planet, while being enrolled in a higher density course of study, such as Wisdom.

The veil exists for a reason. Depending on that particular soul's chosen curriculum, it may or may not be in the best interest of the entity to penetrate the veil. Doing that might even be a distraction for some and get in the way of the work they chose to accomplish.

quite so, however, there is high chance that anyone who is interested in Ra material, or Law of One, or any such particular specific channeling that imparts knowledge and wisdom of this kind, is probably interested in penetrating the veil.

if it didnt resonate, they wouldnt be attracted to these, would they ...

In any case, even if we do pursue penetration of the veil and get glimpses of the greater reality, can we totally understand the mysteries of the Creator while in a 3D body? Even Ra stated that they have teachers too, and the octaves above them remain a mystery.

and there are even those who come from the next octave and bring light. probably, they have those that come from higher densities in their octave, to bring light to them.

therefore, its probably a neverending process. we should try to understand as much as we can using the tools we have given to us, as best we can.

on another note, the Law of One, as Ra describes us, is itself a VERY high level law. remember that how first the infinity gets potentiated with self awareness and becomes intelligent infinity, and then as a result of this there happens love, and then there happens light.

at this point, there isnt even the concept of creation present. leave aside logoi, creatures, and all the things we talk about.

so therefore, we are able to understand and contemplate this kind of a high level law, and we are talking and analyzing its implications in our current lives, and learning it step by step .... that means, we can also understand and study similar concepts.

True. So it really just depends on what each soul has chosen to learn in this particular incarnation. Perhaps some Wanderers have indeed already learned Wisdom, and in their wisdom have chosen to veil their 3D selves from the deeper mysteries, in order to be of service during this time of Harvest.

This presupposes that 'learning the ways of wisdom' is part of that soul's agenda.

Perhaps one does. And perhaps others don't.

yes, however it is illogical to come forth into a brainstorming discussion who are intending to do as such, and 'disparticipate' by communicating to the opposite, if one is not intending to do so himself/herself. it becomes more a call to a certain philosophy/religion than contribution to the work, even if the individual doesnt intend to do so.

Hmmm...good point! I haven't studied a lot of other religions, so I can't speak from personal knowledge that no other religion has that "I am wretched" element, but I agree with you that these religions sure do have it. And I agree that it was injected into those religions as an STS element. I find it disturbing when I hear people of those religions speak like that on a daily basis. It's so ingrained in them, that any suggestion that they might actually be beautiful, magnificent beings often tends to frighten them. I find this sad.

quite as such. the wretched part is more dominant in generally the early christian/catholic line of those philosophies. however all of them has the 'you are but a subject, you should hear and heed your prophet and do as he says' feature, discouraging the believers from any contemplation for the fear of discovering any contradictions or misconceptions in the religion, and getting second ideas.

I agree that, in those cases, references to "helpless, stupid, wretched me" may be a holdover from having been entrenched in those religions. But I don't perceive that as having been the case here. My interpretation of the comment "Who are we to plumb the mysteries of the UniVerse" was one of marvel and humility, rather than religious brainwashing.

i think otherwise, since it took the form of 'who are we to talk about it, with our limited minds, and your incapacity' than 'isnt the creation so endless, so beautiful, so mysterious'.

on another sidenote, it escapes me how one can marvel at the nature of existence, by not contemplating and wandering about it with his/her mind.

[Ali Quadir]

With the obvious "but" of course that mind is equated to wisdom. Which it most definitely is not.

it is. mind, is the tool that is used for understanding the 'dance' of existence as Ra puts it. it is an integral part of existence in mind/body/spirit complexes of all dimensions. knowledge, experience, understanding of workings of the existential systems are perceived through mind.

No, it is not. If mind contains wisdom. And the mind is the result of physical processes then wisdom is a physical process itself. I can take a scalpel through your brain and eliminate your mind. But your wisdom will be unaffected.

Your mistake is lumping together the various faculties of information processing. It's very anthropomorphic to suggest that the only thing able to be intelligent or wise is a thing that has a brain like a human being.

The mystery is called the mystery not because of the absence of knowledge. Mystery is a Mystery because it is beyond mind. Not because it is unknown for now. Information inside the mystery can be comprehended by the human because the human as is rightly stated is much more than mind, but it cannot be expressed in the mind.

This insight into the mystery will come by being one with all. And "love" is the key to that.

the mystery is called the mystery because it is yet in our future to discover.

Generations upon generations of adepts in various mystical traditions seriously disagree with you here.

what we know is what we know, and not mystery, because we have uncovered it in our 'past'.

This is the simple straight forward mistake anyone on the street would make on this subject. But again the mystery also known of that which cannot be spoken of. Cannot be spoken of not because we don't know the words. But because it cannot be translated into words. It lies beyond the human experience. Humans can experience it, but not as bio mechanical machines.

unfortunately, noone will be able to be 'one' with anything, before they can also master and balance the usage of wisdom.

Yet we are one with everything at this very moment. It's the same thing as the mystery, your mind may not be able to appreciate it, but your mind is irrelevant. It's reality.

[unity100]

No, it is not. If mind contains wisdom. And the mind is the result of physical processes then wisdom is a physical process itself. I can take a scalpel through your brain and eliminate your mind. But your wisdom will be unaffected.

Your mistake is lumping together the various faculties of information processing. It's very anthropomorphic to suggest that the only thing able to be intelligent or wise is a thing that has a brain like a human being.

you are confusing the workings of the physical tool, brain, and its processes, which are used to manifest mind, with mind itself.

with the same logic, you can easily mistake body for spirit.

Ra's 4th book deals in archetypical mind, and the workings of mind and subconscious. as you can see, it is not, the brain or, societal mind.

Generations upon generations of adepts in various mystical traditions seriously disagree with you here.

generations upon generations of adepts have worked on these, so that thanks to them, we are able to actually talk and think on these today.

it is appalling that you can make grand statements on history, without giving any historical references, and even, forgetting the very material that this particular subforum is about, by the way.

generations upon generations of adepts have worked on the mysteries of existence by using their mind, the tool of manifesting wisdom, and 3 different groups, including Ra, helped them in that process by setting up pyramids and initiating them, and presenting them with work material, including the egyptian tarot, which constitutes the basis for the Ra material 4. did you actually read the 4th book i wonder.

This is the simple straight forward mistake anyone on the street would make on this subject. But again the mystery also known of that which cannot be spoken of. Cannot be spoken of not because we don't know the words. But because it cannot be translated into words. It lies beyond the human experience. Humans can experience it, but not as bio mechanical machines.

so then you shouldnt talk about it ?

this is your logic. you cannot start understanding anything, before you start contemplating and working on understanding it.

Yet we are one with everything at this very moment. It's the same thing as the mystery, your mind may not be able to appreciate it, but your mind is irrelevant. It's reality.

you are not one with everything at this very moment. if you are, please travel by thought to the planet pluton, or, go stay on the sun for a few days, and manifest small suns.

for, these are some of the feats which those who has garnered the MENTAL discipline to see all the existence as one being, can do, as Ra says. yet, you cannot.

you are, purporting that you are one with everything. however what you are mistaking is, you are a PART of everything, and not one with everything. it becomes something outside you, just in a saying manner 'oh yes but we are all with one', without any actual reality. it remains something in philosophy.

had you been one with everything, you would not be here, in this octave. you would be in 8th dimension, in a timeless state, in between the octaves.

[Ali Quadir]

you are confusing the workings of the physical tool, brain, and its processes, which are used to manifest mind, with mind itself.

So.. How do you see it? It seems to me if the brain manifests the mind then the mind manifested by the brain cannot be equal to mind itself. Which is clear when you hit someone on the head with a steel pipe. Mind itself should not be affected but manifested mind most certainly is.

To me mind is simply that... Manifested by the brain. One of our faculties. If you cut it off you don't get a second one. Just like if you cut off your right hand you don't get a second one. These are manifestations of the physical.

There is no mind outside this "physical" mind. There is intelligence and wisdom, but not mind. Mind is one of a billion ways to "think" or process reality, humans also know intuition instincts and emotion.

with the same logic, you can easily mistake body for spirit.

The idea that there is a duality is very recent in human history, there is no duality. What we call body and what we call spirit are two different distorted conceptualizations of the same underlying reality which is beyond the conceptual.

Generations upon generations of adepts in various mystical traditions seriously disagree with you here.

generations upon generations of adepts have worked on these, so that thanks to them, we are able to actually talk and think on these today.

No.. We are not... They describe the phenomenon in the negative. Not this, not that. They don't say. Oh it's that. There's a reason for that. Why do you think becoming an adept is a choice for life? Because someone can clearly explain it to you it's just complicated so it takes long?

No because you need to unlearn all your assumptions. You actually need to silence the mind, or in some way learn to ignore it. You need to use the other faculties.

it is appalling that you can make grand statements on history, without giving any historical references, and even, forgetting the very material that this particular subforum is about, by the way.

I am not so worried about the fact that you are appalled. If you are, you should probably work on your emotions. However, if you desire references, ask for them.

generations upon generations of adepts have worked on the mysteries of existence by using their mind, the tool of manifesting wisdom, and 3 different groups, including Ra, helped them in that process by setting up pyramids and initiating them, and presenting them with work material, including the egyptian tarot, which constitutes the basis for the Ra material 4. did you actually read the 4th book i wonder.

I have read them. I have read more than them. I haven't restricted myself to just reading either.

This is the simple straight forward mistake anyone on the street would make on this subject. But again the mystery also known of that which cannot be spoken of. Cannot be spoken of not because we don't know the words. But because it cannot be translated into words. It lies beyond the human experience. Humans can experience it, but not as bio mechanical machines.

so then you shouldnt talk about it ?

People talk about it all the time, but you cannot express it. Those who know it don't require words for explanations. Those who don't know it will not understand due to words. Zen koans for example are typical attempts to describe the indescribable. And they do it by tricking the mind into the proper state rather than by their content.

Consider it like knowing a chicken you can read all about chickens in all kinds of books. But you don't know one unless you've at least seen one.

this is your logic. you cannot start understanding anything, before you start contemplating and working on understanding it.

Exactly... Wisdom is not understanding. Understanding is a mental faculty. It is physical and 3d in nature. Thereby limited in it's understanding to 3d concepts. Similar to how the human mind is incapable of directly thinking about 4 mathematical dimension. It does not have the faculties required. We can find truisms, but we cannot come to understanding using mind alone.

"this is your logic. you cannot start understanding anything, before you start contemplating and working on understanding it." Do you realize all bolds are restricted to mental processes? Have expressed it in any non mental way? Have you felt it, seen it, been it?

Somethings you just need to Grog. All at once or nothing at all. Humans DO have the faculties, but it's not in mind.

We are very mind centered as a species, we even go so far as to deny our other ways of perceiving truth. Which happen to be what those religions are attempting to teach their students.

Ra himself reminds us many many times that the bandwidth for his work is limited. Through the instrument they can only work with the mind. The books are recordings of this understanding, they supplement our understanding but alone cannot cause it.

Yet we are one with everything at this very moment. It's the same thing as the mystery, your mind may not be able to appreciate it, but your mind is irrelevant. It's reality.

you are not one with everything at this very moment. if you are, please travel by thought to the planet pluton, or, go stay on the sun for a few days, and manifest small suns.

Done.
But YOU too are doing that right now... Your ego is just not aware of it.

Travelling by thought is simply thinking. Where mind is integrated in faith it can then perceive what it travelled to directly. When you think about some issue and figure it out, you've essentially done it, everyone does that. Manifesting small suns is the same. You manifest the whole of reality, this includes the suns, small and large. They are however more than their manifestation in your reality. They also manifest in mine.

for, these are some of the feats which those who has garnered the MENTAL discipline to see all the existence as one being, can do, as Ra says. yet, you cannot.

I cannot connect the ego to the higher self without severely damaging it. That is correct. It is too crude to contain the totality. However, I already AM the things you say we have to become. Just like you are.. The ego is a manifestation of self, it is not self.

you are, purporting that you are one with everything. however what you are mistaking is, you are a PART of everything, and not one with everything. it becomes something outside you, just in a saying manner 'oh yes but we are all with one', without any actual reality. it remains something in philosophy.

It's not something in philosophy. It's a reality. We can use philosophy to explain some aspects of it, but it cannot grasp the reality. Just like the mind cannot. What we call *I* we usually limit to the *I* we know. But that's just a physical/mental/emotional/intuitive manfestation. There are more bodies we process reality through I mentioned instinct and I believe buddhists mention at least 8 of them.

had you been one with everything, you would not be here, in this octave. you would be in 8th dimension, in a timeless state, in between the octaves.

Your mind speaks. But if I am one with everything I logically MUST be here in this octave. Otherwise I am not one with everything. The fact that I am here now is expected if I am one with everything. So this is not a discerning factor.

It sounds enigmatic I'm sure... The point I'm trying to make is that you're in your mind. You make statements from your mind and are absolutely convinced of their reality. While mind is merely a result of your 3d physicality which is merely a result of what you are and the Law of One comes into play there. You're all that is. So what you are is more than this crude matter. And it must be more right now. There are conscious states in which it becomes possible to glimpse from a different perspective and see another version of you. The mere fact that these exist means we do not understand reality unless we understand those. And as I mentioned before, the mind is limited, too limited to do this.

Mind should be integrated in this higher reality in trust and not attempt to master it.

[unity100]

i think we have exhausted this train of thought with you, ali quadir. i wont be replying to you anymore.

[crystl37]

now there is an important point here - just as many, including Ra, said, such material as we are talking will be most attractive to the wanderers over any others.

therefore, it will mean that most of the people who are working on such material are wanderers, who are already above 3rd density. who are also here to activate their higher energy centers, and smoothen the planetary vibrations. in addition to the specific services they can render by using those centers and their earlier learning.

so it becomes a matter of paramount importance for any wanderer here not to mistake himself/herself/themselves as 3rd density entities trying to make a choice, and act like them, but to speedily work on activating their centers to aid the planetary vibrations.

after all, this was what they have come here for, in the first place.

Very well said and I agree a very important point. While it is true that each path is unique and each wanderer has 3rd density lessons they are working on, it is at this point in our remembering that we have the opportunity to consciously disentangle ourselves from third density karmic distortions.

If we can quiet our busy minds and think on a deeper level, and the fact that we are having this discussion tells me that it is true, that we will realize that we have already decided, and our purpose for third density incarnation will begin to emerge. For me, the knowledge that I am a wanderer, and studying the Law of One, rapidly connected the dots, explained everything. Now I know, and it seems like I have been able to get down to the business of third density life. Now I know what I'm doing it for, and I am grateful to have remembered, I won't be trapped by karmic involvement in this density. That knowledge inspires me with humility, comforts me in this harsh environment, and has given me a sense of great purpose.

[unity100]

Very well said and I agree a very important point. While it is true that each path is unique and each wanderer has 3rd density lessons they are working on, it is at this point in our remembering that we have the opportunity to consciously disentangle ourselves from third density karmic distortions.

i forgot that !

it is a very important matter in my opinion. all the wanderers need to return to their natural densities, for, everything is best where it fits in the best. the energy and vibrations these wanderers were/will be creating in their natural densities are needed.

[LsavedSmeD]

Again..you sidestep our conversation by referencing the beliefs of "you people". Stereotypes and all...

you are misinterpreting yourself. i didnt say 'you people'.

many in the west are under the influence of the phenomenon i have described, due to most of the cultures of the west and middle east have been taken their religions from middle east, regardless of how close or far to their respective religious institutions.

you dont see similar traits in american indians, or chinese.

observing common traits does not make 'stereotypes'. if so, we wouldnt be able to have generic classificators like 'building', 'ship', or 'river'. despite only a few of these are the same in their respective genre, they all exhibit the same characteristics in various regards.

By the same token...Wisdom does not come by simply saying that you have addressed "ways of wisdom"..and explored/observed...and "removed" those limitations. You can't bestow wisdom on yourself. You can't say..."I am wise and your are not". Well..you can, but its meaningless.

The wisdom of another human is granted him by his fellow entities...who find his being inspirational and uplifting.

wisdom, is not granted by external sources. had it been as such, 5th dimension entities would not be able to conduct their 5th dimension work in almost total isolation from any other entity, as per Ra describes. also, 5th dimension is a dimension which allows entities to be able to evolve without having to be a part of a social complex, in contrast to the 4th, and 6th densities that mandate it for their work, and their graduation.

And whose living of the wisdom oriented life makes others want to follow in his ways and learning. I don't see that here.

I think we should agree to disagree and end this conversation.

wisdom is not something that is imparted and shared by those who are doing such a work, so that others will 'follow' his ways and learning. that format is a negative format. following such a format and believing in it would also be a negative format.

wisdom is imparted in order to enrich the knowledge of the participants in a mutual manner.

in that regard, participating in a working that is meant for that end, but then exhibiting a mindset that discourages, than encourages the usage of wisdom and intelligence is contradictory in itself. wisdom will not come to the one who thinks 'who am i to ....'.

thank you for your participation in the discussion. audieu. i will be participating.

You are a very intelligent individual, however I'd like to point out that density and dimension are not the same. Density is spiritual gravity an awareness, dimension would point out a place/location.

[unity100]

You are a very intelligent individual, however I'd like to point out that density and dimension are not the same. Density is spiritual gravity an awareness, dimension would point out a place/location.

from what i remember, it is used in Ra in an interchangeable manner. ie, 4th density, 4th density sphere (of the world), spiritual density, octave densities and so on. in the form it is used for 4th density sphere, it signifies a location. and, from what i gather, it also signifies a dimension, because i have gathered the impression that this place is different than the 3d sphere that is to exist with it, and may choose not to be seen by the 3rd. in that sense, i believe these become interchangeable, in that these densities also have different properties than the other densities. at least, this is what i gather from various spiritual channeled text, including Ra.

[Monica]

This is the simple straight forward mistake anyone on the street would make on this subject. But again the mystery also known of that which cannot be spoken of. Cannot be spoken of not because we don't know the words. But because it cannot be translated into words. It lies beyond the human experience. Humans can experience it, but not as bio mechanical machines.

The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao

[Ali Quadir]

Thank you Monica. That is exactly what I meant.

On the internet brains are often substituted for spirituality. Truth has become dependent on words. Spirit has been replaced by logic. And if there is a mis match then spirit must be wrong.

[Monica]

If it can be named or defined in any way, it's a distortion. Everything that has any degree of separation is a distortion of the One Infinite Creator.