2006.01.01 'Failure' of the plan that this logos chose

[Ali Quadir]

Wow, yeah!

Unfortunately this means we cannot get anywhere with thought alone. If you want to know anything at some point you're going to have to stop thinking about it.

Because anything that can be named or defined, cannot be known through it's name or definition, only it's distortion can be known. It's very real.. If I was blind no one could explain red to me using names and definitions.

But seeing red is the same, it's really another distortion of Red, expressed in your visual subsystem as opposed to your conceptual subsystem. Which is why if I see red, and you see red, we can never check if we experience Red in the same way.

We must leave knowing what Red truly is in the hands of the creator and satisfy ourselves with approximations.

[crystl37]

We may not be able to prove our individual perceptions, but red truly is an area of the spectrum of light which is very definable, even in our distorted language. In the context of the spectrum and the frequency of light then yes certainly red could be described to a blind person. So what you are saying is that since you kinow what red looks like, you couldn't imagine getting that visual from definitions or names. But if you were blind-you could understand red by its properties, rather than by its appearance in your reality.

I think that there are two distinct levels of thought. Our brain is part of the physical vehicle that houses our entity and allows the expression of our light body in the third dimension as a third density being. It is not as if our mental capacity will cease to be. Our brains are wired like a little kid's first motorbike, or a chevy truck-with a governor. The concept is, by its nature-extremely difficult to express in words, because the verbal complexes necessary to communicate and relate under these restricted conditions do not contain means for expressing that which is outside of its construct. While I understand at a level beyond that which I can verbally express adequately, that verbal language, time, birth and death do not exist beyond this density, I am aware that technically the words used to describe the understanding will be flawed at best, but I do not however, agree, that anything that can be named or defined falls into the category of being a distortion itself. In order for discussion and exchange of information, we must, as third density beings, name and describe things to the best of our ability, progress comes in acceptance of the verbal distortion needed to express something, without losing sight of the thing in its pure form.

[Ali Quadir]

We may not be able to prove our individual perceptions, but red truly is an area of the spectrum of light which is very definable, even in our distorted language.

That's not what it is. A spectrum is merely a model for understanding light. Just like the seeing experience of red is a distortion of the underlying reality, so is the spectral model.

I think that there are two distinct levels of thought. Our brain is part of the physical vehicle that houses our entity and allows the expression of our light body in the third dimension as a third density being. It is not as if our mental capacity will cease to be.

It will to a large extent. Our faculties are clearly located in the brain neurology is quite clear on this. However this is not the holder of our intelligence. We have other systems to process information with. So consciousness will not break down. We just won't experience thinking like we do now. It will be different more dreamlike where you know stuff because you direct your consciousness towards it.

While I understand at a level beyond that which I can verbally express adequately, that verbal language, time, birth and death do not exist beyond this density, I am aware that technically the words used to describe the understanding will be flawed at best, but I do not however, agree, that anything that can be named or defined falls into the category of being a distortion itself. In order for discussion and exchange of information, we must, as third density beings, name and describe things to the best of our ability, progress comes in acceptance of the verbal distortion needed to express something, without losing sight of the thing in its pure form.

Yes I agree, I think You are correct in your line of thinking. But since all is one in reality. Every "thing" in it must be a distortion of the one reality. Every thing is a reflection of a more subtle thing behind it all the way back to total oneness. So we think the same but where you stop and call a thing a thing I say go on, what is behind the thing? What is it a distortion of?

[unity100]

Wow, yeah!

Unfortunately this means we cannot get anywhere with thought alone. If you want to know anything at some point you're going to have to stop thinking about it.

you didnt understand what monica was saying :

If it can be named or defined in any way, it's a distortion. Everything that has any degree of separation is a distortion of the One Infinite Creator.

that means, if you can name it, you can think about it.

the 'mystery' you cant know about, you already dont know about, therefore, cant even name, or begin to think about it.

---

I am aware that technically the words used to describe the understanding will be flawed at best, but I do not however, agree, that anything that can be named or defined falls into the category of being a distortion itself.

i suspect that it is the case - any entity is a 'distortion'.

moreover, i also classify the intelligent infinity as a distortion, a deviation from the state of nothingness, stillness, or infinity. because, it exists.

[crystl37]

I am aware that technically the words used to describe the understanding will be flawed at best, but I do not however, agree, that anything that can be named or defined falls into the category of being a distortion itself.

i suspect that it is the case - any entity is a 'distortion'.

moreover, i also classify the intelligent infinity as a distortion, a deviation from the state of nothingness, stillness, or infinity. because, it exists.

I concur- the way I understand it there was infinity, and the distortion of the thought of finiteness provided the initial catalyst of which we are a manifestation.

[unity100]

The important thing is, whether the 'creator', the intelligent infinity Ra speaks about, a distortion - since it came into being right after infinity became conscious, hence, intelligent infinity.

[Cyclops]

I stumbled today upon a session which I remembered to have read before, I found the question pretty specific in connection to this topic.
Q'uo Sunday Meditation May 28, 2006

Question from A: (Read by Jim.) Our question today is this: “You’ve mentioned before that the harvest of this particular sub-logos, planet Earth, is not typical. You’ve said that other sub-logoi have had considerably less difficulty at their times of harvest. Would you consider our sub-logos’ use of combined free will, together with strong veiling, to be an inefficient combination? And can you compare that to the harvest of third density on Venus? Both Mars and Maldek had warlike societies, and we were wondering what the third density was like on Venus and what major factors and catalysts went into their societies to bring them to a service-to-others choice. They must’ve done something right. So could Q’uo speak to the harvest that is now happening on planet Earth and perhaps contrast it with the harvests on Mars, Maldek and Venus?”

This is an excerpt of the session with the question above, they speak of how this thick and heavy veil chosen by this sub-logos is a well done step because a lighter veil in third density would not provide as proper a foundation for higher densities especially with wisdom in fifth.
Q'uo Sunday Meditation May 28, 2006

Your query this day is about the differences between various planetary entities’ take on third density and what was done differently on the planet you call Venus that allowed that planet to have a more harmonious and far more successful journey through the third density.

The one known as A asked whether the combination of very clear and starkly delineated free will and the fairly profound veiling that is apparent on Earth’s third density, or the Density of Choice [1], was a combination that spelled a difficult and challenging third density for those of planet Earth. And we would agree with this assessment of factors involved in the creation of a somewhat challenging Density of Choice for planet Earth, especially in regards to comparing it to the Density of Choice on the planetary energy called Venus.

For indeed in that third-density environment, there was less of a heaviness involved in the veiling. The free will was as marked as is the factor of free will upon your planet. However, there was, for the entities of Venus, a transparency in the veil which was just transparent enough to allow processes which you know as envisioning, journeying and dreaming to have a more robust life within the conscious processes, as well as the subconscious processes, of the entities in third density upon the planetary influence you call Venus.

This is, in fact, the one difference between the third density of the planet known as Venus and the other planetary influences of which you are aware.

The problem with the somewhat transparent veiling process upon third density is that the choice is not made in an atmosphere of boot camp. Therefore, when the third-density entity becomes a fourth-density entity, and then a fifth density entity, the energies move along with utmost smoothness until fifth density, at which time the lack of challenge in penetrating the veiling process shows up as a dynamic that is negative with respect to being able to work well with the opening of those energies of wisdom which seem dark to the naïve and unsophisticated seeker.

Consequently, the work and challenge came for those entities experiencing the [higher] densities on Venus’ influence instead of in third density. Those who graduated into sixth density from the influence of the planet known as Venus, then, have often, in coming back into third density on your planet to serve as wanderers, been faced with a very challenging, self-given agenda of learning. That agenda is in rebalancing love and wisdom in order to value them in such as way that they are able to interpenetrate each other in true sixth-density unity.

The benefit of the more impenetrable veil is that it creates for the third-density entity attempting to choose between service to self and service to others a stark and seemingly profound experience of suffering which this instrument would call Golgotha.[2] The third density of your planet calls forth from the seeking entity a purity of humility and surrender that is, in our humble opinion, a far more favorable plinth [3] upon which to build the character that will move through all the densities of your octave than the third density where there is always seen the benefit of teachers and the benefit of taking another entity’s word for something. Third density with a lighter veil creates a wonderful [place] for entities to put themselves in the teaching situation. And the system of guru and chela, as known among your Buddhists, is very similar to the kind of enjoyment that third density upon Venus created.

However, it was found, in this early third-density experience, that indeed there were difficulties in higher-density work that were engendered by the seemingly quick and easy move through third density. What this has to offer to those asking this question is our assurance that those within Earth’s third density at this time have received a powerful gift. In receiving such a difficult and challenging third-density atmosphere, you have faced those shadows that await you, if not in third density, then in more subtle work [in higher densities] where those shadows are more difficult to deal with. Your present environment is a powerful environment; powerful, that is, just as a loaded gun is powerful. The question is, “Where do you wish to aim this experience when you pull the trigger on tomorrow?” Where would you like to be headed? Because the choice of heading is indeed yours.

You are in a position, each of you, my friends, to make powerful and life-changing choices this day and every day because you must deal in faith alone. When you do choose to move in faith, the planet moves with you. You take the power of your being and focus it upon your intention, and that which you choose is chosen. We cannot express to you the power that you have over your destiny. We cannot express it, nor can anyone, because that which you choose must be chosen in faith alone.

Excerpt on how a lighter veil would be confusing and less effective for spiritual evolution, and of the great potential in a vivid existence of a heavier veil.
Q'uo Sunday Meditation April 18, 2004

there is a carefully structured environment in which hints will constantly be given concerning the nature of that underlying ground of being which has been veiled over by the veil of forgetting, while keeping any sort of objective proof from muddying the waters of unknowing. There is a determined bias within the Creator, concerning this particular third density, towards keeping entities as much in the dark as possible concerning the way things really are underneath the appearance of things. It is a recipe that is designed to be confusing, frustrating, maddening and displacing.

It is felt, as the harvest of many experiences, that while more information and a more transparent third density is a more comfortable experience, in the end it is a more confusing, a less effective, and a less viable third-density experience in terms of serving as the ambiance within which seeking souls are able, consciously, to affect an acceleration of their learning and evolution. The third-density experience of this particular planet is extremely vivid. The consensus reality/illusion is extremely heavy and it is correspondingly difficult to penetrate. This means that there is great potential for experiencing intense emotions and desires. It is the production of these things: the feelings, the biases, the various elements of a person’s make-up, that the environment of third density is designed to bring into greater and greater relief, so that each seeking entity has complete free will to look at the experience of living in any way that is chosen.

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Here Ra is describing the purpose of the experiments in implementing extensions of free will. The heavier free will oriented logoi and sub-logoi thus allow the service to the creator which it wishes, and that is to know itself in it's infinite variety.
Ra Session 79 of the Law of One February 24, 1982

Questioner: I was just wondering since this seems to be the crux of the experiment, the large breaking point between no extension of the first distortion and the extension of the first distortion, what the result of this original experiment was with respect to that which was created from it. What was the result of that?

Ra: I am Ra. This is previously covered material. The result of these experiments has been a more vivid, varied, and intense experience of Creator by Creator.

The vivid experience in this creation for the creator.
Ra Session 76 of the Law of One February 3, 1982

Ra: I am Ra. This creation is somewhat more condensed by its Logos than some other Logoi have chosen. Thus each experience of the Creator by the Creator in this system of distortions is, relatively speaking, more bright or, as we said, vivid.

Creations of lesser free will versus creations by logoi which extended free will over to give the creator greater experience.
Ra Session 77 of the Law of One February 10, 1982

Those Logoi whose creations have been set up without free will have not, in the feeling of those Logoi, given the Creator the quality and variety of experience of Itself as have those Logoi which have incorporated free will as paramount. Thusly you find those Logoi moving through the timeless states at what you would see as a later space/time to choose the free will character when elucidating the foundations of each Logos.

Excerpt on the described purpose of the entire creation which is said to be so that the creator may know itself through an infinite variety.
Q'uo Sunday Meditation November 5, 2000

Carla: To follow up. I’ve thought about this before and it is are we not also food but because we are self-aware that we become food of another kind. My thinking on this is that all of these thoughts, awareness, changes, conclusions, everything that we evolve through, in a way, that emotion and suffering and feelings, are they not food for the Creator, so that we are part of the food chain too?

I am Q’uo, and we are in agreement with the thoughts that you have spoken, my sister, and would comment by suggesting that each entity within any illusion or density is a portion of the Creator that gives entirely of itself, of its experiences, of its thoughts, of its past, its present, and its future to the one Creator, for each is the one Creator and the purpose of the entire creation is that the Creator may know Itself through Its infinite portions within creation.

Is there another query, my sister?

Carla: No. Thank you. That is fascinating.

I am Q’uo, and we would agree, my sister, that the entire creation is that which fascinates us in an absolute sense, for there is nothing but the one Creator knowing Itself in infinite variety. Is there another query at this time?

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Finally the purpose of how it is said that we all chose to be here and that incarnation in this heavy illusion is not a burden but a gift when we should finally accept our humanity and that our home is the earth.
Q'uo Special Meditation February 6 2006

In all cases, this spot of coming into a body on planet Earth at this time was very difficult to obtain. Each entity who wished to serve and learn at this crucial time in your planet’s progress offered itself, its being, its plan of incarnation, and its hope both to learn and to serve. You were given a spot because you were exceptionally well-geared to come into incarnation, to wake up, and to recall your program, and therefore to be able to be a co-creator for the rest of your incarnation in manifesting that which you worked so hard to achieve the opportunity to express.

We would say two things to those who have awakened within incarnation and are now aware of their wanderer nature.

Firstly, we would ask you to humble yourself fully, and to realize that you are not from a higher density now. Now, you are natives of planet Earth. You have earned that right by taking a grave risk. You have jumped into third density, shall we say, at the deep end of the pool. There is no guarantee that you will remember, and if you remember there is no guarantee that you can manage to come fully into incarnation. That is the first thing that we encourage wanderers to do. It is very easy to miss higher density experience, and yet that is not why you came. If you wished higher density experience, you would never have left.

You very much yearned to serve at this time. Therefore, we ask you to fully incarnate, to the best of your will and zeal to do so. See the beauty of this environment. See the Creator within your fellow beings, as confused as they are. See the Creator within your own confusion, and forgive yourself for taking a long time, in some cases, to awaken fully.

Once you have fully brought yourself down to the earth of Earth, once you have grounded yourself as an Earth native, then the second thing that we would encourage you to do is to rest daily in an open-ended willingness to see into your pattern and your purpose.

[xlsander]

thank you cyclops - you really rock! this thread ha sprovided me with extremely valuable informaton at the time where i really needed it.

So I will remind myself to rest daily in an open-ended willingness to see into my pattern and my purpose.

[Monica]

Wow, yeah!

Unfortunately this means we cannot get anywhere with thought alone. If you want to know anything at some point you're going to have to stop thinking about it.

you didnt understand what monica was saying :

If it can be named or defined in any way, it's a distortion. Everything that has any degree of separation is a distortion of the One Infinite Creator.

that means, if you can name it, you can think about it.

the 'mystery' you cant know about, you already dont know about, therefore, cant even name, or begin to think about it.

Actually, I think () Ali's comments were a little closer to what I was trying to convey.

When I said:

The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao

I meant that the Tao, which is the Taoist name for the One Infinite Creator, is the total unity of all and beyond all distortion. Any attempt to name, describe, or even think about the Tao is a distortion; therefore, it is not the eternal Tao (the One Infinite Creator). It's part of the Tao, but it isn't the Tao, because Tao means the Oneness, the Unity, that includes all and has no distinction. Numeralogically, it is the 0, the undifferentiated wholeness before Creation. And it is also the fullness of all that there is, including Creation. It is ALL.

You see? I am stumbling as I attempt to describe the Tao. I can only make a clumsy attempt using thoughts and words.

Hence,

The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao

We can think about the Tao, yes. We can attempt to describe our own experiences and perceptions. We can meditate and get a glimpse of that boundless Unity. But as soon as we attempt to put it into thought, we are expressing our experience as we interpreted it. It is our perspective and thus a distortion. In Law of One lingo, a distortion is any delineation, separation, description, or piece of the One Infinite Creator. Anything less than 100% total understanding of the One Infinite Creator is a distortion. If we attempt to describe what we perceived as an experience of the One Infinite Creator, that certainly has value, but it too is a distortion. Not even a SMC can claim to have total understanding of the One Infinite Creator.

16.19 Questioner: Can you give me some kind of history of your social memory complex and how you became aware of the Law of One?
Ra: I am Ra. The path of our learning is graven in the present moment. There is no history, as we understand your concept. Picture, if you will, a circle of being. We know the alpha and omega as infinite intelligence. The circle never ceases. It is present. The densities we have traversed at various points in the circle correspond to the characteristics of cycles: first, the cycle of awareness; second, the cycle of growth; third, the cycle of self-awareness; fourth, the cycle of love or understanding; fifth, the cycle of light or wisdom; sixth, the cycle of light/love, love/light or unity; seventh, the gateway cycle; eighth, the octave which moves into a mystery we do not plumb.

That isn't to say that thought isn't an important part of the process. But it too is a distortion.

I hope this clarifies!

[unity100]

I meant that the Tao, which is the Taoist name for the One Infinite Creator, is the total unity of all and beyond all distortion. Any attempt to name, describe, or even think about the Tao is a distortion; therefore, it is not the eternal Tao (the One Infinite Creator). It's part of the Tao, but it isn't the Tao, because Tao means the Oneness, the Unity, that includes all and has no distinction. Numeralogically, it is the 0, the undifferentiated wholeness before Creation. And it is also the fullness of all that there is, including Creation. It is ALL.

You see? I am stumbling as I attempt to describe the Tao. I can only make a clumsy attempt using thoughts and words.

Hence,

The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao

there is a contradiction there then. for, you are describing the infinity, not infinite intelligence, or intelligent infinity, which is the creator, as Ra puts it.

infinity is not describable, yes, infinity is not quantifiable, yes, infinity is not fathomable, yes. everything is part of infinity, yes,

yet, infinity does not need to do anything, does not do anything, has no effect on anything. it is everywhere, yet, it is neutral. its neither white nor black, it neither gives nor takes. so far, for any entity is concerned, infinity doesnt even exist for themselves, for the entities and infinity have no interaction in between them. if, any of these elements are again combined with their counterparts, and then again amount to zero in regard to all activities, ie distortions, then they would merge to infinity.

then, there is the intelligent infinity, which is intelligent, self aware, and creates. which, many of those call it the 'creator'. it is active, it does things, it accepts things back, and it tries to learn itself, know itself, as Ra and many other channelings put it.

it is natural to see this creator, the intelligent infinity, as a single or simultaneous infinite numbers of disruptions in a still sea, vibrations, waves, ie 'entities' like dewey b larson puts it. it is more possible to be the latter, the infinite number of simultaneous disruptions, waves, than a single one, due to infinite nature of existence, or the nature of infinity.

these infinite vibrations then create wave patterns that amount to infinitely many, and infinitely different wave interactions and infractions that create many different concepts, focuses and realities, which end up in co-creators.

heartbeat like outbursts, that go out and create creations, then coalesce towards infinity, maybe becoming one with infinity for a brief time again, maybe never totally returning to infinity but just approximating it, only to burst out again to create another chain of infinite infractions and intersections in another heartbeat, which we name 'the creation'.

[Ali Quadir]

Thank you for clarifying Monica. I also felt like I understood you.

The problem is that we consider thought to be pure thought as opposed to a distortion itself. It's common to do a bait and switch where we bait ourselves with a question about the universe. Then replace the universe with a construct and answer relative to the construct an artificial answer. When for example I say someones name. I speak the symbol standing for a construct in my mind which we all assume to be the same construct. And in broad terms this is true, but in the details we don't know the same person, we each know a different construct of the person built around how he or she manifests in our world.

The same goes for every other construct and thoughts are constructs. Even perceptions are constructs. Carefully constructed by our senses.

Wittgenstein had some things to say about that I believe.

[unity100]

Reflecting on the quo quotes cyclops brought, there occurred numerous other avenues of interest. these go above the scope of this topic. after i complete a job i have, i will make a detailed analysis of these points in another grand aspect in a new thread, and also will drop that analysis's implications in regard to this topic, here. it will take some time.

[Monica]

there is a contradiction there then.

Maybe not a contradiction, but just different attempts to communicate intangible concepts and we don't always understand precisely what the other-self meant.

I confess I have been busy and haven't actually read this entire thread. So I will refrain from further comments until I have done so.

Thanks for the clarification, unity!

[Ali Quadir]

It's only a contradiction if we assume that one of the versions must be true and all the others false. However, if we think of all interpretations as having a "degree of fit" where they can fit reality either not at all or reasonably much.

Two good theories can be mutually exclusive, and at the same time both accurate and valid enough for daily use. For example the quantum and classical views of physics.

[unity100]

first, lets examine the heavy veil-heavy free will approach particular to this logos, sol, sun, and analyze its effects. i will take all the quo and Ra quotes, and the general veil matter into a new thread that looks into and analyzes the veil matter, because the principles there are much more broad and out of the scope of this matter. i will keep this short and work on the other, more important and profound matter in regard to veil.

....................

lets approach the failure of this heavy veil heavy free will plan in this particular solar system from a purely wisdom standpoint - destroying planets while conducting 3rd density is failure in itself.

once a planet is destroyed, it is gone. no density can operate on it, from 1 to 8th, since it wont sustain life at any level.

you cant teach anything with this, only the wisdom NOT to destroy planets while doing heavy veiling and heavy free will.

so far,

Maldek was destroyed totally. Mars was rendered unliveable in 3rd density. Earth was heavily damaged in its 2nd cycle. Earth still has the possibility of getting damaged to extreme or being destroyed, even with a few years left until its 4d entry. it has tethered on the brink of destruction since last 60 years too. only the intervention of guardians and waves after waves of many wanderers prevented it so far.

which means that, there IS an intervention on higher densities/principles' side, the very thing that violates free will itself.

the veil has been put in place to prevent influence from higher densities, so that the 3d entities would make choices by having 'free will', but it requires influxes after influxes of high density wanderers, from unity/oneness density of 6th to boot, and quarantine from guardians from negative elements to prevent the destruction of the planet, and ending of ALL kinds of experience on that planet, leave aside polarizing through free will or veil.

you put a heavy veil to prevent higher density influence, but you need to introduce higher density influence to actually prevent destruction of entire thing. in a way, you already undo the thing you did yourself - you veil the entities from oneness of existence, then you bring in hundreds of millions of wanderers that will vibrate with the vibration of oneness of existence, 6d.

it is illogical to do this, and it proves, a certain amount of oneness vibration IS needed in order to actually keep an experience of 3d going, with or without veil. then why did you put the veil there in the first place ? ....

also, the very fact that there was a light veiling during Ra's 3d graduation, but it was made heavier in maldek and earth, means that these plans are not rigid, solid, and can change. which means, they are not infallible, or absolute truth, or perfect from the start at any given point.

the biggest wisdom that this plan in this solar system teaches anyone, is, it is unwise going too extreme while trying to implement anything. that includes free will, veil, anything.

[Ali Quadir]

Eh. I said it before, but the fact that I can't fly is a very clear infringement on my free will. Or maybe it isn't because I chose to live a life in which I cannot fly.

Man's inability to destroy the earth is a clear infringement on it's free will... Or maybe it isn't because they chose to live a life on a planet, not destroy it.

Free will does not mean free here and free now. You have a tendency to be very mental about this. Again, the presumption that your mind which is a part of the whole is sufficient to grasp the whole simply does not make sense.

[unity100]

Eh. I said it before, but the fact that I can't fly is a very clear infringement on my free will. Or maybe it isn't because I chose to live a life in which I cannot fly.

Man's inability to destroy the earth is a clear infringement on it's free will... Or maybe it isn't because they chose to live a life on a planet, not destroy it.

Free will does not mean free here and free now. You have a tendency to be very mental about this.

then if you chose to live in an alternate timeline that had no veil, that would be an exercise of your free will.

Again, the presumption that your mind which is a part of the whole is sufficient to grasp the whole simply does not make sense.

mind is a part of mind/body/spirit complex, which actually creates the whole existence around you, including the free will you so highly speak of. there is an entire book, an entire working in LOO that was intended to precisely do this thing, and even going beyond the scope of a galaxy, or a veil, or universe - Book 4 explores the concepts of mind, subconscious, free will, choice. it directly explores the MIND of the sub logos, the sun, and other sub logoses.

if you havent read that book, and dont know anything about this, then do not speak on things that you dont know about. there is an entire book in Law of One series, which you are actually discussing in this forum, that does the very thing you try to call people not to do.

..........

you may be choosing to ignore one aspect of your being by belittling and ignoring an aspect of your entity that constitues up to 1/3 of your whole being, that is your choice. but, participating in a discussion/working that aims to understand the mysteries by actually USING that part of existence, and calling others to stop doing that because you yourself believe that you are incapable of understanding it, is beyond sensible itself.

dont participate in the discussion if you dont want to pay respect properly and use your mind complex. dont keep calling people to stop thinking over new horizons, if you do the opposite.

dont contradict yourself.

basically, we are thinking here, and you are saying, 'dont think'. which sounds more like the approach of a particular middle eastern religion to existence, with its forbidding of any investigation of mysteries, than anything philosophical or all encompassing.

---

this IS an experiment by the way. not something that underlies the fabric of existence, indispensable or mystic. it is what it is - outright an experiment, intended to discover new things, and learn things, by the VERY creator, the intelligent infinity that some people isolate from everything. the creator is an entity that seeks and learns itself, that means at any given point in any octave, what you call the 'creator' knows less than its future self in the next octave, and more than its past self in the earlier octave.
http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?ses...83&ss=1#15

83.15 Questioner: What techniques and methods of penetration of the veil were planned and are there any others that have occurred other that those planned?

Ra: I am Ra. There were none planned by the first great experiment. As all experiments, this rested upon the nakedness of hypothesis. The outcome was unknown. It was discovered, experientially and empirically, that there were as many ways to penetrate the veil as the imagination of mind/body/spirit complexes could provide. The desire of mind/body/spirit complexes to know that which was unknown drew to them the dreaming and the gradual opening to the seeker of all of the balancing mechanisms leading to adepthood and communication with teach/learners which could pierce this veil.

what some of you take as creator, and talk about being unfathomable, unimaginable and so on, is NOT the creator you talk about - its infinity.

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?ses...=13&ss=1#5

below is the definition of creator, intelligent infinity, as Ra puts it :

13.7 Questioner: After this, what came next?

Ra: I am Ra. Awareness led to the focus of infinity into infinite energy. You have called this by various vibrational sound complexes, the most common to your ears being “Logos” or “Love.” The Creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle called by us as closely as we can create understanding/learning in your language, intelligent infinity.

[unity100]

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=1272

Please note the main thread, in which i examined preveil, postveil situations, and their effects. Some of them are relevant to this thread.

[Monica]

I'm noticing a bit of discord beginning to erupt here and on a couple of other threads. I'd like to remind everyone of guideline #1:

1) Respect, respect, respect. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectfully at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our own knowledge and deepen our own understanding; we are not here to tear each other down.

We're discussing some very deep concepts here. The very nature of these concepts can be challenging to communicate effectively. Add to that the fact that our members don't all have the same native language, and sometimes tact and finesse get sacrificed as we struggle to convey our points.

Avoiding direct references to an other-self can help to keep the discussion on-topic and intellectual rather than personal.

I suggest we all take a deep breath and get some warm and fuzzy LOVE going here on this thread!

[Ali Quadir]

Eh. I said it before, but the fact that I can't fly is a very clear infringement on my free will. Or maybe it isn't because I chose to live a life in which I cannot fly.

Man's inability to destroy the earth is a clear infringement on it's free will... Or maybe it isn't because they chose to live a life on a planet, not destroy it.

Free will does not mean free here and free now. You have a tendency to be very mental about this.

then if you chose to live in an alternate timeline that had no veil, that would be an exercise of your free will.

Precisely... And some people do that. Including some people on this planet. However, due to the nature of free will their worlds and lives become isolated from the others. Touching but isolated.

The occult world has a fair amount of persons that do stuff that would apparently break the law of free will. And I've seen some of them do it. Yet if no one sees them do it then the law is not broken. People have an in built censoring mechanism that just filters out information not belonging to their world view.

I've once been in a ritual that involved a dramatic merging of 4 people into one. 2 of those people were spiritually involved, the other 2 came there by chance and curiosity. The next day, 2 people remembered what happened, the other 2 were a little fuzzy but remember having a great time, not too sure doing what though. But it was cool and fun... Whatever it was.

Again, the presumption that your mind which is a part of the whole is sufficient to grasp the whole simply does not make sense.

mind is a part of mind/body/spirit complex, which actually creates the whole existence around you,

Not precisely, it is only your worldy manifestation. It defines how you stand in the world for sure and how people perceive you, but it is created just like the world by the underlying soul. Mind is part of creation, not part of creator. However, obviously creator has the substance that mind is created from. It is a reflection of that intelligence. But it is not the same intelligence as known in human psychology. It just uses it in a distorted way to function.

Did you note how Ra describes himself as a social memory complex? He describes himself differently and points out with it that what he is is different, he is not a mind/body/spirit complex.

including the free will you so highly speak of. there is an entire book, an entire working in LOO that was intended to precisely do this thing, and even going beyond the scope of a galaxy, or a veil, or universe - Book 4 explores the concepts of mind, subconscious, free will, choice. it directly explores the MIND of the sub logos, the sun, and other sub logoses.

if you havent read that book, and dont know anything about this, then do not speak on things that you dont know about. there is an entire book in Law of One series, which you are actually discussing in this forum, that does the very thing you try to call people not to do.

I'm sorry but in direct violation of your orders I will continue to speak on things that I do in fact know about. You don't actually object to what I'm saying, just to what you think I'm saying. You misunderstand things on a regular basis. You misunderstood what Monica was saying and simply stated that I misunderstood her. In effect you took her words to support your views when in fact they did not.

This isn't a conflict, there's no reason to get upset or take things personal. So lets take Monica's advice and keep things civil. I do not tell you what to do. You should not tell me. If you have an issue with me then one of the moderators will surely hear your complaints and take the appropriate action.

you may be choosing to ignore one aspect of your being by belittling and ignoring an aspect of your entity that constitues up to 1/3 of your whole being, that is your choice. but, participating in a discussion/working that aims to understand the mysteries by actually USING that part of existence, and calling others to stop doing that because you yourself believe that you are incapable of understanding it, is beyond sensible itself.

Again, your assumptions cause you to err while filling out the blanks... I don't belittle mind. It's one of the greatest tools I've got... It's still a distortion... Respecting something does not require utter blindness to it's limitations.

One might actually state the opposite. Respect demands that we accept a things limitations.

dont participate in the discussion if you dont want to pay respect properly and use your mind complex. dont keep calling people to stop thinking over new horizons, if you do the opposite.

You think you understand what I'm on about and can so simply reject it... However, you don't get it. I'm not calling people to stop thinking across intellectual horizons.

I'm telling to feel across them, intuit across them, actually exist across them. Not here as much though, bring4thers tend to get that part.

basically, we are thinking here, and you are saying, 'dont think'. which sounds more like the approach of a particular middle eastern religion to existence, with its forbidding of any investigation of mysteries, than anything philosophical or all encompassing.

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When did I say that? I said your mind is UNABLE to contain some information. This is a fact of life, modern science modern philosophy and every single ancient holy book has been telling us this all these years.. None of them tell us to stop thinking.. (Though disciples might)

If you think I advocate to stop all thinking you have really not heard a single word of what I said.

But can you? Actually stop thinking and perceive reality directly? This is not just what middle eastern religions advocate. It's what the eastern religions advocate. Budhism, Taoism, Hinduism. While middle eastern religions do make some effort in that direction the far east really are the guys who take it to the top.

83.15 Questioner: What techniques and methods of penetration of the veil were planned and are there any others that have occurred other that those planned?

Ra: I am Ra. There were none planned by the first great experiment. As all experiments, this rested upon the nakedness of hypothesis. The outcome was unknown. It was discovered, experientially and empirically, that there were as many ways to penetrate the veil as the imagination of mind/body/spirit complexes could provide. The desire of mind/body/spirit complexes to know that which was unknown drew to them the dreaming and the gradual opening to the seeker of all of the balancing mechanisms leading to adepthood and communication with teach/learners which could pierce this veil.

what some of you take as creator, and talk about being unfathomable, unimaginable and so on, is NOT the creator you talk about - its infinity.

It's just words friend. The creator exists on all levels and is in all things. Intelligent infinity is just another name for the creator.

below is the definition of creator, intelligent infinity, as Ra puts it :

13.7 Questioner: After this, what came next?

Ra: I am Ra. Awareness led to the focus of infinity into infinite energy. You have called this by various vibrational sound complexes, the most common to your ears being “Logos” or “Love.” The Creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle called by us as closely as we can create understanding/learning in your language, intelligent infinity.

Can you explain how this is different from what I'm saying? It seems to me that intelligent infinity is by definition clearly beyond the grasp of limited mind. Not that we should stop thinking, but we should use ALL our faculties to grok it.

Note how he also links it to love? Remember I said earlier that this love was the key? Did you get that reference? It is a clear indication that we need more than our minds to get it. And that's all I'm saying, not that mind is useless, or that we should stop using it.

We should just stop pretending our mind contains undistorted reality or is even theoretically able to contain reality. Because it's not. It only contains a model.

[unity100]

The answer to all your points is simple :

You need to use your mind to grasp what you can grasp. You cant grasp anything if you say 'you cant grasp some information' and sit in a corner. There will ALWAYS be stuff that contemporary mind complexes wont be able to grasp, at any given point. 5 million years later, in the next octave.

The aim is to push the boundaries, force the frontiers. That doesnt happen with saying 'oh but god is great, and we cant understand it'. One needs to act. think.

[Richard]

On the other hand…just because someone says…I “do” grasp and thoroughly understand these principles doesn’t make it so either. Humans have been making statements like that for centuries only to have to eat their words as progress (spiritual or otherwise) makes them eat their words.

Richard

[Monica]

Both use of mind and attunement to Spirit (with the mind out of the way thru silence, or absence of thought) are important and have their respective function.

I remember in one of the channeling sessions, Hatonn I think it was, in which it was stated that our 3D minds were far more developed than theirs. I found this startling at the time! I'll see if I can find the exact quote later today. The mind was described as a tool necessary to exist in this reality. It is certainly important, but so is the absence of thought important as well. They continually encourage us to clear the mind of thought and meditate, in order to connect with our guidance.

[unity100]

On the other hand…just because someone says…I “do” grasp and thoroughly understand these principles doesn’t make it so either. Humans have been making statements like that for centuries only to have to eat their words as progress (spiritual or otherwise) makes them eat their words.

Richard

You grasp what you can grasp, by trying to grasp. Nothing happened back in history can be a reason to stopping trying to grasp.

If, people said 'oh but others have not been able to grasp before', nothing would be grasped.

[Ali Quadir]

You need to use your mind to grasp what you can grasp.

No this is not true. It's a common misconception, and I've been repeating this for the past few days to you.. You do NOT need the mind to grasp things. The mind is NOT the only information processing system our organism has available. I had mentioned instinct, intuition, emotion, but there's also perception.

This is so often overlooked in the west.

You cant grasp anything if you say 'you cant grasp some information' and sit in a corner.

Again... I NEVER said that... I said "your MIND is unable to grasp this... So use OTHER mechanisms." It's the exact same problem as how you will never be able to grasp a work of art by purely using your mental faculties. You may get to know everything about it, but you won't even know if you like it. Unless that is: you allow your emotions to do their job.

There will ALWAYS be stuff that contemporary mind complexes wont be able to grasp, at any given point. 5 million years later, in the next octave.

True... There are also places that birds cannot walk to.. They will never develop the ability to walk there. The reason is obvious, they don't have to, they fly.

The aim is to push the boundaries, force the frontiers. That doesnt happen with saying 'oh but god is great, and we cant understand it'. One needs to act. think.

I never said any of the things you accuse me of saying.

The core message that I've been trying to get into your brain is that your mind is not your only system to process information with. You need to understand this so your mind can accept information that did not originate from itself. Your mind needs to stop filtering out information from instincts and all sorts of psychic perceptions....

You can not MENTALLY know infinity it will not fit into your mind ever. You can still GROK it. You can still know it with your entire being.

I'm not trying to mess with your head. This is an option you simply had not seen before. And it's a bit difficult to see it for the first time. It took me like forever, I'm by nature about as cerebral as you are. This is a karmic blindspot to practically anyone in the western world. If you want to be among people who are not hindered by this blindspot, you'd have to live with primitives like for example the aboriginals.

But if you can open up those faculties of processing information you will open your life to a variety of paranormal experiences and guidance. Synchronicities that your mind will now reject.


The mind will NEVER know everything. But when all your information processing bodies are aligned and functioning properly you will NEVER not know the answer to any question.

[Richard]

“…..You grasp what you can grasp, by trying to grasp….”

Here we agree…

I think where we differ is that I think that the conclusions grasped may be flawed due to the limited vessel of human perceptions. Mind may be all…but the mind is subject to the limited input of our senses and/or the physical limitation of the human brain. We cannot “see” all wavelengths any more than we can “hear” all frequencies. Why is it such a stretch to think the current 3D “mind” might not be able to truly understand the ins and outs of upcoming densities and their denizens. Much less their motives.

As things stand now, we see and contemplate the distortions based on those physical limitations and our own personal human experience. Like filters…or…a veil. Nothing wrong with the contemplation or attempts to grasp these principles. But do we truly understand? Probably not…in my opinion.

Or, at least..not yet

Richard

[unity100]

The core message that I've been trying to get into your brain is that your mind is not your only system to process information with. You need to understand this so your mind can accept information that did not originate from itself. Your mind needs to stop filtering out information from instincts and all sorts of psychic perceptions....

the core message you are failing to get into your brain is that what you call 'mind' is much bigger than what you think it is, and it is an integral part of the ENTITY concept as which you manifest as of this moment.

without it, you wouldnt exist.

all the processes that you filter psychic perceptions, this, that, all kinds of intuition you acquire, are your MIND processing the subconscious intuition you are given by your subconscious.

mind is the male principle. the principle that moves. subconscious, the mystic, the unknown is the female principle. the one which awaits reaching.

it exists in all densities in space/time and time/space, and it will continue to exist after this octave. moreover, it will also be necessary to USE it and bring it to a balance in between subconscious.

You can not MENTALLY know infinity it will not fit into your mind ever. You can still GROK it. You can still know it with your entire being.

so, for that reason, we shouldnt, gasp, god forbid, think about the infinity then. because, well, we should GROK it instead.

so, we should just go of 25% basis of existence, the mind, and tie all our stuff to subconscious, and the spirit. because, if we just lay in wait by conceding and waiting, it will just happen.

it doesnt.

I'm not trying to mess with your head. This is an option you simply had not seen before. And it's a bit difficult to see it for the first time. It took me like forever, I'm by nature about as cerebral as you are. This is a karmic blindspot to practically anyone in the western world. If you want to be among people who are not hindered by this blindspot, you'd have to live with primitives like for example the aboriginals.

first, dont make broad assumptions about pasts of people you dont know about. you dont know what 'options' i had, what i have done prior.

second, what you are doing is a call to mysticism and faith. and while doing this, you are still mistaking mind as a particular portion of the current societal mind, ie western world.

mind is not something that simple.

The mind will NEVER know everything. But when all your information processing bodies are aligned and functioning properly you will NEVER not know the answer to any question.

mind has to know everything that can know in existing octave before returning to infinity prior to end of density 8. it is the meaning of 'creator knowing self' about entities who are advancing towards the end of 8 density, before returning to infinity.

.............................

im going to ask you a question - did you, or did you not read The Law of One, book 4.

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“…..You grasp what you can grasp, by trying to grasp….”

Here we agree…

I think where we differ is that I think that the conclusions grasped may be flawed due to the limited vessel of human perceptions. Mind may be all…but the mind is subject to the limited input of our senses and/or the physical limitation of the human brain. We cannot “see” all wavelengths any more than we can “hear” all frequencies. Why is it such a stretch to think the current 3D “mind” might not be able to truly understand the ins and outs of upcoming densities and their denizens. Much less their motives.

As things stand now, we see and contemplate the distortions based on those physical limitations and our own personal human experience. Like filters…or…a veil. Nothing wrong with the contemplation or attempts to grasp these principles. But do we truly understand? Probably not…in my opinion.

Or, at least..not yet

Richard

another misconception of mind.

mind is not limited to physical senses, or limitation of human brain.

none of the concepts we talk about here are within the limitation of physical senses, yet, you are able to talk about them and think about them. what is octave ? have you ever seen an octave ? no. can you fit it in anywhere ? no. what is a harvest ? have you ever seen one ? maybe. can you see it ? no.

mind is not something limited, or something simple. it is the male principle of existence. it is at least 25% basis of EXISTING as a separate entity. neglecting it wont avail, and those who do, will have to return to make up for it.

[Richard]

Again…we agree…to an extent.

Mind itself is not limited…but your perception of the wholeness of Mind is limited by your physical humanity.

Unity wrote” “…none of the concepts we talk about here are within the limitation of physical senses, yet, you are able to talk about them and think about them. what is octave ? have you ever seen an octave ? no. can you fit it in anywhere ? no. what is a harvest ? have you ever seen one ? maybe. can you see it ? no….”

These are philosophical concepts. As such, they become aspects of imagination for the sake of discussion. We can contemplate the actuality of each concept…and how it might work in a given system. But there is no proof beyond belief or faith in the truth of the concepts.

The same might be said for this ongoing conversation that has evolved from the judgment that Logos Plan failed to the definition of Mind. It’s a philosophical discussion based on opinion and personal experience with no supporting evidence beyond the faith that it exists…in whatever form…in whomever’s mind.

Richard

[unity100]

These are philosophical concepts. As such, they become aspects of imagination for the sake of discussion. We can contemplate the actuality of each concept…and how it might work in a given system. But there is no proof beyond belief or faith in the truth of the concepts.

The same might be said for this ongoing conversation that has evolved from the judgment that Logos Plan failed to the definition of Mind. It’s a philosophical discussion based on opinion and personal experience with no supporting evidence beyond the faith that it exists…in whatever form…in whomever’s mind.

Richard

what you say as 'philosophical' and philosophical understanding IS the means to catch the fleeting moments and intuition of time/space, the astral, the subconscious.

that is the mechanism of mind, that is the way mind works. you think, you philosophically understand one thing, you fathom it, and then you can call the concept to yourself and catch it, and therefore usher the practice.

therefore it is an utmost need to USE mind, as much as one can, and never ever engage in calculations of capacity, or insufficiency or degrade it at any given point or hamper for any reason.

mind is the component that structures the fluidity and unstructuredness of the subconscious of spirit, giving it a form, an existence as an entity that can have a separate entity, and therefore any kind of free will, or activity. without mind, subconscious would be just part of a greater subconscious, existing in a fluid chaos. without subconscious, mind would be some matrix, some structure giving active concept that flies about without having any meaning or purpose.

you are still thinking in earthly terms. because you have developed concepts pertaining to this world as a civilization, and named something 'philosophical' and something else 'mystical', will not change the grand nature of things.

mind, still will be the mind that gives form and acts as male principle, subconscious will still be the fluid aether that contains the unknown. workings of these things will not change, in any given density.

[Ali Quadir]

Lets seriously try to solve this. It's just words, I don't mind changing words if it helps understanding. What we need is a different word... Lets say "Unity mind" when we speak about the mind concept that Unity uses.

Let me try to summarize your concept of "mind"...

Mind is what the western world calls the mind, but it is broader than that. It also includes the masculine concepts you mention but not the feminine. Would you say mind is many information processing systems?

For example, you would call instinct mind? You would call the subconscious mind? But you would not call intuition mind right? That's a more feminine energy right there.

I mentioned instinct, intellect, intuition emotion and sensation. Would you please categorize those as "unity mind" or not "unity mind". If your definition of the word mind is vastly different than mine we can talk for days and get no where. And it's true I came from an occult background. So it's not weird to expect some differences in vocabulary.

Let me remind you once more though because it's important to me that I NEVER EVER said that you should NOT use a system. I simply stated that various of our systems cannot handle certain tasks. If you were to use ONLY that system. As it seemed you were doing. Then you'll get no where... Just like the bird trying to climb a tree. It's just not going to work for him. He also does not need to unless he's an ostrich or something and even then failure is imminent.

So I never suggested only using 25% of capacity as per the example you used. I suggested the opposite, going from 25%, (A lot less actually if you use my limiting definition of mental reasoning) to 100% by using everything you've got... My goal just like yours is to optimize my function. So if it seems I choose to use less of my faculties please assume something was distorted in translation.