[split] "Some people eat animals, some don't."

[Billy]

If you had the power to erase all 2D animal sufferings that have occurred on this planet because of humans, would you?

That is a really good question, and I would also ask whether you would do the same in relation to human suffering?  If you erase the suffering, it would also erase all the growth and lessons learned that came as a result of that suffering, would it not?  But simultaneously, I wonder whether there exists suffering which has no real benefit and only serves to cause needless pain and stagnation, and perhaps even regression.  In that case, I would erase that suffering which serves no real benefit and only serves to keep one stuck.  

So what if the Creator loses some experience, is love not more important?  Besides, this planet has suffered more than enough if you ask me and darkness, with some exception, has long overstayed it's visit. Zoosh, an entity channeled by a fellow named Robert Shapiro, says that a planet only needs 2% negativity for it to not stagnate and continue it's evolution, where as our planet is about 50/50 if I remember correctly.  To paraphrase, "feel free to reduce that percentage at any time".  A fair chunk of that percentage probably comes from the sufferings of animals.  So ladies and gentleman, feel free to reduce the suffering of animals at any time.  

[Jade]

Our job isn't to erase or negate suffering, it's to heal that suffering and offer those who are choosing to suffer another choice, so that they can continue upon their evolutionary path.

6.16 Questioner: What is the position of this planet with respect to progression of the cycle at this time?

Ra: I am Ra. This sphere is at this time in fourth-dimension vibration. Its material is quite confused due to the society memory complexes embedded in its consciousness. It has not made an easy transition to the vibrations which beckon. Therefore, it will be fetched with some inconvenience.

[Minyatur]

That is a really good question, and I would also ask whether you would do the same in relation to human suffering?  If you erase the suffering, it would also erase all the growth and lessons learned that came as a result of that suffering, would it not?  But simultaneously, I wonder whether there exists suffering which has no real benefit and only serves to cause needless pain and stagnation, and perhaps even regression.  In that case, I would erase that suffering which serves no real benefit and only serves to keep one stuck.  

I would not think that I have the right to erase any other-selves' sufferings/experiences, whatever the density or form of that entity. Especially if any of these experiences is a cornerstone of what that entity is to become, I doubt of any of their future selves would wish that an other-self have the right to change their whole path and everything that they are, when it is exactly what they have always existed to be. Sometimes I seem to think that it is what some would wish for.

So what if the Creator loses some experience, is love not more important?  Besides, this planet has suffered more than enough if you ask me and darkness, with some exception, has long overstayed it's visit. Zoosh, an entity channeled by a fellow named Robert Shapiro, says that a planet only needs 2% negativity for it to not stagnate and continue it's evolution, where as our planet is about 50/50 if I remember correctly.  To paraphrase, "feel free to reduce that percentage at any time".  A fair chunk of that percentage probably comes from the sufferings of animals.  So ladies and gentleman, feel free to reduce the suffering of animals at any time.  

I do not think any experience is lesser or greater than any other. A lot of channellings are saying that everything is love, even what you perceive not as love. I do believe deep within myself that it is true.

I also do believe this planet is a great teacher of love beyond anything that can be seen or understood from down here. We see the hardships each chose to undertake as part of their path but hardly see the fruits of it all.

About the entity from that channelling, I'd tell it that this planet is not unlike how it should be. Simply a harsh mirror for him to look at himself into. Oh how would things be so much simpler if there was no other-selves to bring into the Light what most want to ignore about their dark potential deep within themselves.

[Monica]

Well, I tried at least.

This is an example of why being the change is null.

When you are ready to see how you are being, in a sense of what Aaron and Quo has called 'Spiritual Violence' then please ask..

In the mean time I'm supposed to be the change.  You haven't abided too much by the guidelines even as I've tried various methods of trying to reach you.

I'll make my leave from this thread now.

Feel free to rejoin the thread if you're actually interested in discussing the topic.

...

[Monica]

If you had the power to erase all 2D animal sufferings that have occurred on this planet because of humans, would you?

We all know from Ra that suffering is but catalyst, and catalyst obviously serves a purpose in our evolution.

We also know from Ra that this planet is rather unusual, in that it is veiled, thus causing more suffering than what usually happens on 3D planets. Add to that, that souls were deposited here who failed to become harvestable on other 3D planets, making the situation even more complex. It's a grand experiment; some might say it's an experiment gone awry.

Whether we agree with the Logos' design or not, it is what it is and we must work with it. I definitely think that some of us took on the mission to report back to the Logos what it feels like to be down in the trenches, or stuck in the muck.

In my understanding, the whole point of suffering is to provide a trigger for others to experience compassion, thereby polarizing.

As is evidenced by these discussions here, the suffering is often in vain.

That's the most tragic of all.

...

[Monica]

If you erase the suffering, it would also erase all the growth and lessons learned that came as a result of that suffering, would it not?

People often talk about the growth and lessons of the one who is suffering, but there is also the opportunity for growth and lessons for those who are observing the suffering. How are they responding? With callous disregard? Or compassion?

But simultaneously, I wonder whether there exists suffering which has no real benefit and only serves to cause needless pain and stagnation, and perhaps even regression.  In that case, I would erase that suffering which serves no real benefit and only serves to keep one stuck.

Exactly! Being that their suffering is failing to trigger compassion in others, for the most part, then it is in vain. So yes, in that case I agree. Needless suffering is an obscenity. And that's exactly what's happening now. 

So what if the Creator loses some experience, is love not more important?  Besides, this planet has suffered more than enough if you ask me and darkness, with some exception, has long overstayed it's visit. Zoosh, an entity channeled by a fellow named Robert Shapiro, says that a planet only needs 2% negativity for it to not stagnate and continue it's evolution, where as our planet is about 50/50 if I remember correctly.  To paraphrase, "feel free to reduce that percentage at any time".  A fair chunk of that percentage probably comes from the sufferings of animals.  So ladies and gentleman, feel free to reduce the suffering of animals at any time.  

Agreed!

...

[Monica]

Our job isn't to erase or negate suffering, it's to heal that suffering and offer those who are choosing to suffer another choice, so that they can continue upon their evolutionary path.

And how to do that? With compassionate action.

...

[Minyatur]

If you had the power to erase all 2D animal sufferings that have occurred on this planet because of humans, would you?

We all know from Ra that suffering is but catalyst, and catalyst obviously serves a purpose in our evolution.

We also know from Ra that this planet is rather unusual, in that it is veiled, thus causing more suffering than what usually happens on 3D planets. Add to that, that souls were deposited here who failed to become harvestable on other 3D planets, making the situation even more complex. It's a grand experiment; some might say it's an experiment gone awry.

Whether we agree with the Logos' design or not, it is what it is and we must work with it. I definitely think that some of us took on the mission to report back to the Logos what it feels like to be down in the trenches, or stuck in the muck.

In my understanding, the whole point of suffering is to provide a trigger for others to experience compassion, thereby polarizing.

As is evidenced by these discussions here, the suffering is often in vain.

That's the most tragic of all.

...

I do not think any suffering is in vain, one of the things I've tried to put focus on in this discussion is that it is a rightful experience of those who experience it. 

As such in my view you do perceive a building block of someone else's path as vain and that is pretty much what I meant by belittling others' path.

When I say that this experience is sought by the entity itself, it is not by the 2D entity but instead it's Higher Self that wanted this experience to be part of it's path. As much as you consider it vain, in my view those who make the choice to go through these kind of experiences under their transcending Free Will, will not consider it vain later in their path and surely not at the end of it.

...

In my view, if the whole point was compassion we wouldn't have evolution going beyond 4D.

[Billy]

Our job isn't to erase or negate suffering, it's to heal that suffering and offer those who are choosing to suffer another choice, so that they can continue upon their evolutionary path.

6.16 Questioner: What is the position of this planet with respect to progression of the cycle at this time?

Ra: I am Ra. This sphere is at this time in fourth-dimension vibration. Its material is quite confused due to the society memory complexes embedded in its consciousness. It has not made an easy transition to the vibrations which beckon. Therefore, it will be fetched with some inconvenience.

You are right, it is much better to heal than to erase.  I am reminded of Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind, in that you probably cannot erase parts of your memory or consciousness, even if you want to, without them eventually resurfacing in some way.

[Aion]

I am just going to make one point and then I will be ceasing participation in this thread.

The Logos offers catalyst to both paths equally. The use of that catalyst for positive or negative polarization is done by the individuated entity. ANY catalyst can be used towards EITHER polarization. The difficulty of utilizing a catalyst for positive polarization is dependent on the distortion of the catalyst and how close it is to the unity of the One Thought. Those catalyst that are more separate and distant from the One Thought are harder to polarize positively from, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, just that more work in consciousness must be done to discover the 'magical' nature in the catalyst. Those who polarize this way will often appear negative to those who don't, just as the positive adept eventually needs to separate themselves to a degree from others in order to maintain the balance of service. No catalyst is positive or negative until it is made so by the individual. That is all.

Much Love to you all.

[Minyatur]

@Monica

Is it beyond you to picture a Love that lets suffering happens and which can also dip it's fingers into it? Because in my view that is pretty much the LOVE that we ever move toward and also the LOVE that can be seen in what stands above us in awareness, what has moved beyond the game we're currently playing.

Polarity whether STO or STS in my view is a self-serving way to work on yourself by interacting with others. Both can be seen as service to All because services are always complementary. My main problem with the STO path of polarity, is that I view it as self-serving whereas it views not itself as self-serving.

I can view animal sufferings and feel compassion for it without myself wanting other-selves' experiences to be different for my sake simply because it wouldn't be consonant with my own self-definition of love.

[Billy]

In my view, if the whole point was compassion we wouldn't have evolution going beyond 4D.

I always saw the progression from 4th Density onward as a means of refining compassion and love and imbuing it with wisdom, thereby making love more loving.  I think the whole point is compassion, with compassion having many layers and being infinite.  I imagine that things do indeed fall away through higher density evolution (or all evolution for that matter), but the one thing which is constant and is always being built upon is love.  It doesn't make sense to me to put compassion by the wayside as that for me is the whole point of evolution.  Love begets love.    

[Minyatur]

In my view, if the whole point was compassion we wouldn't have evolution going beyond 4D.

I always saw the progression from 4th Density onward as a means of refining compassion and love and imbuing it with wisdom, thereby making love more loving.  I think the whole point is compassion, with compassion having many layers and being infinite.  I imagine that things do indeed fall away through higher density evolution (or all evolution for that matter), but the one thing which is constant and is always being built upon is love.  It doesn't make sense to me to put compassion by the wayside as that for me is the whole point of evolution.  Love begets love.    

I did not mean to imply that it is unimportant. More that one's conception of compassion is ever transforming.

[Billy]

I am just going to make one point and then I will be ceasing participation in this thread.

The Logos offers catalyst to both paths equally. The use of that catalyst for positive or negative polarization is done by the individuated entity. ANY catalyst can be used towards EITHER polarization. The difficulty of utilizing a catalyst for positive polarization is dependent on the distortion of the catalyst and how close it is to the unity of the One Thought. Those catalyst that are more separate and distant from the One Thought are harder to polarize positively from, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, just that more work in consciousness must be done to discover the 'magical' nature in the catalyst. Those who polarize this way will often appear negative to those who don't, just as the positive adept eventually needs to separate themselves to a degree from others in order to maintain the balance of service. No catalyst is positive or negative until it is made so by the individual. That is all.

Much Love to you all.

That is the scary part for me.  I see this type of catalyst as high risk/high reward.  If dealt with effectively, tremendous growth is possible, but if not, it can mean what you see on our planet now.  Wouldn't the wise and loving thing to do be to give these harder lessons to those who have proven themselves capable of working with them, rather than to 'spiritual children'?  It seems like a waste otherwise.  You don't give preschool children high school level math, and expect them to work it out, even with assistance being offered to them. That is just nuts.  Another analogy would be trying to lift a weight which is far beyond your strength.  You just get crushed and that ain't fun.  

I'm in one of my 'the world is unfair and it doesn't have to be like this' moods, as you can tell.  When I see the Logos, I am gonna give him a piece of my mind. 

[Billy]

In my view, if the whole point was compassion we wouldn't have evolution going beyond 4D.

I always saw the progression from 4th Density onward as a means of refining compassion and love and imbuing it with wisdom, thereby making love more loving.  I think the whole point is compassion, with compassion having many layers and being infinite.  I imagine that things do indeed fall away through higher density evolution (or all evolution for that matter), but the one thing which is constant and is always being built upon is love.  It doesn't make sense to me to put compassion by the wayside as that for me is the whole point of evolution.  Love begets love.    

I did not mean to imply that it is unimportant. More that one's conception of compassion is ever transforming.

Yeah, but I think that some things remain pretty consistent across the board.  I can't imagine how enslaving beings can ever be a manifestation of compassion and love.  To think otherwise simply boggles my mind and runs counter to everything I think love is.  Where I get stuck is that I recognize the importance of adversity and hardship in the evolutionary process, but in my view, what has happened and continues to happen on this planet is a bastardization of that process and it has way overstepped the boundaries. 

This planet is/was a mistake, there I said it.

Or, to put it more positively, the world is out of tune (like an instrument), and for it play beautifully and harmoniously, it needs to be tuned appropriately, so that all notes are in their rightful place. The world is sound, with the current song being played being one of chaos and disharmony. It is a matter of rearranging the notes that have been played on this planet since its conception, so that each note compliments and builds off of it's previous one. The song may be sad and melancholy when complete, but it will be beautiful none the less. I can't wait to hear it.

[Monica]

I do not think any suffering is in vain, one of the things I've tried to put focus on in this discussion is that it is a rightful experience of those who experience it. 

If they are serving by offering an opportunity for others to choose compassion, and the others don't, then it is wasted catalyst...so they have suffered in vain. Not all catalyst gets utilized.

As such in my view you do perceive a building block of someone else's path as vain and that is pretty much what I meant by belittling others' path.

It appears that you have misunderstood my use of the term 'in vain'. NOT 'vain' as in 'vanity' but IN vain, as in, wasted.

in vain,
without effect or avail; to no purpose:
lives lost in vain; to apologize in vain.

In my view, if the whole point was compassion we wouldn't have evolution going beyond 4D.

Compassion isn't the 'whole' point of all densities. But it is a key point of 3D, for those on the STO path.

That's the reason STS entities serve by harming/controlling/enslaving others...to provide an opportunity for the STO entities to learn compassion and love. Each serves the other in their own way.

This is why harming/controlling/enslaving are inherently STS attributes.

...

[Monica]

The Logos offers catalyst to both paths equally.

How? How does the Logos offer that catalyst?

Through us. We all offer catalyst to one another. Specifically, STS entities serve the Creator by facilitating suffering. Somebody's gotta do the dirty work.

The use of that catalyst for positive or negative polarization is done by the individuated entity. ANY catalyst can be used towards EITHER polarization.

I agree with this. When presented with an opportunity to choose compassion for a suffering other-self, the STO-oriented entity instead chooses to ignore it, then the polarization is in the direction of negative, which is a loss of polarity for the entity aspiring to STO. Conversely, an STS-oriented entity making that same choice would gain polarity.

...

[Monica]

Is it beyond you to picture a Love that lets suffering happens and which can also dip it's fingers into it?

Suffering just for the sake of suffering? What you are describing is the STS path.

As Q'uo said, "It is a dark and bloody path. There are those who prefer it. We are Not those. We are of the radiant path."

Polarity whether STO or STS in my view is a self-serving way to work on yourself by interacting with others.

If one makes choices based on how they will polarized, then yes, I'd agree.

Both can be seen as service to All because services are always complementary. My main problem with the STO path of polarity, is that I view it as self-serving whereas it views not itself as self-serving.

Then it sounds like you may be confusing how some people describe the STO path, with the essence of the path itself.

I can view animal sufferings and feel compassion for it without myself wanting other-selves' experiences to be different for my sake simply because it wouldn't be consonant with my own self-definition of love.

Groan

Do you seriously think we want to answer the call of the oppressed because we selfishly want to control their experiences and deny them their chosen suffering? Are you seriously suggesting that our compassion towards the oppressed is actually selfishness??

And do you really disregard their calls for help that much? Do you think they're calling because...because...well exactly WHY do you think they'd be calling for help if they wanted to keep on suffering?

Do you really not see that they are calling for help in a desperate effort to elicit some compassion and thus facilitate the opening of the green ray for both themselves and the ones extending compassion to them? Do you really not see that?

I continue to scratch my head in bewilderment. Folks, these are basic concepts. Kindergarten stuff.

Like Ra said, if the other-self is hungry, the appropriate response is to FEED them! Yes, by all means, use some wisdom too, but FEED them!!!

Billions of other-selves are ENSLAVED and crying out. FREE them!!! YOU have the power to! Each of you...by not longer contributing to the demand for their enslavement.

...

[Aion]

The Logos offers catalyst to both paths equally.

How? How does the Logos offer that catalyst?

Through us. We all offer catalyst to one another. Specifically, STS entities serve the Creator by facilitating suffering. Somebody's gotta do the dirty work.

The use of that catalyst for positive or negative polarization is done by the individuated entity. ANY catalyst can be used towards EITHER polarization.

I agree with this. When presented with an opportunity to choose compassion for a suffering other-self, the STO-oriented entity instead chooses to ignore it, then the polarization is in the direction of negative, which is a loss of polarity for the entity aspiring to STO. Conversely, an STS-oriented entity making that same choice would gain polarity.

...

The order of your logic makes no sense to me. Catalyst is empty, but you continuously give to it your own biases. I cannot function through your mode of thought. I am sorry.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Aion, I'd say leave her alone.  We showed her the door, but she refuses to even peer into it.  I don't want to push her, lets just let her be..

[Aion]

I only respond in respect. I cannot offer any other thoughts except my acknowledgement of confusion without attempting to control by desiring to gain understanding. Thus, I free her from my need and control.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Doing better than I o:

[Minyatur]

Yeah, but I think that some things remain pretty consistent across the board.  I can't imagine how enslaving beings can ever be a manifestation of compassion and love.  To think otherwise simply boggles my mind and runs counter to everything I think love is.  Where I get stuck is that I recognize the importance of adversity and hardship in the evolutionary process, but in my view, what has happened and continues to happen on this planet is a bastardization of that process and it has way overstepped the boundaries. 

Earlier in this thread I asked Why is the Creator hurting Itself?, that's my perception of it.

This planet is/was a mistake, there I said it.  

Or, to put it more positively, the world is out of tune (like an instrument), and for it play beautifully and harmoniously, it needs to be tuned appropriately, so that all notes are in their rightful place.  The world is sound, with the current song being played being one of chaos and disharmony.  It is a matter of rearranging the notes that have been played on this planet since its conception, so that each note compliments and builds off of it's previous one.  The song may be sad and melancholy when complete, but it will be beautiful none the less.  I can't wait to hear it.

I do think it is fine and well, and it may bear more fruits than a more harmonious world that many would've wished to see along the way.

[tamaryn]

so.......I've read that eating a lot of /cooked/ vegetables is nice

[Billy]

Aion, I'd say leave her alone.  We showed her the door, but she refuses to even peer into it.  I don't want to push her, lets just let her be..

A little condescending don't you think TP?  Is it the content of Monica's posts that you don't agree with or is it her approach?  I can see why people would think that it is controlling, and I would feel the same if I was on the end of it, but as has been said, our reactions are an internal and personal issue.  Maintaining such a view, and doing the internal work that comes with it, is far more rewarding than pointing the finger, in my opinion.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Just her approach.  Im honestly mirroring her.  Once she comes at me with consideration of what I've said I will stop...

I already agree with her premise and some of her logic enough that she's aready convinced me she's right but she's mean like me.

And I do not like that, her approach.  Her misunderstanding of my approach which I TOO am guilty of doing as she's done but I'm trying to stop the severity of it.  I really do hope she'll join me in that endeavor. :/

[Monica]

Just her approach.  Im honestly mirroring her.  Once she comes at me with consideration of what I've said I will stop...

I already agree with her premise and some of her logic enough that she's aready convinced me she's right but she's mean like me.

And I do not like that, her approach.  Her misunderstanding of my approach which I TOO am guilty of doing as she's done but I'm trying to stop the severity of it.  I really do hope she'll join me in that endeavor. :/

In real life everyone who knows me thinks I'm the sweetest person ever...full of fluffy kittens and jasmine flowers...in fact they often tell me I'm 'too nice' ....but apparently they're all wrong because underneath it all, I'm actually a fierce lioness protecting her young.  hahaha

...

[Monica]

How about this, Tired Philosopher. Is this better?

Please, PLEASE, with a cherry on top, can you PLEASE quit eating animals? It's sooooo much nicer to just quit enslaving them. They are suffering soooooo much and every time you eat them, it makes me cry.

...

[Jade]

Monica... to be honest, sometimes you do shoot yourself in the foot in these threads. I know it's (very) frustrating to watch people justify eating meat, but if you could invoke a little more patience, I think your arguments might go a bit further. Sarcasm, facetiousness, and hyperbole rarely win people over.

Nobody doubts your kindness. But your frustration overflows and people understandably buck against that.

[Monica]

Monica... to be honest, sometimes you do shoot yourself in the foot in these threads. I know it's (very) frustrating to watch people justify eating meat, but if you could invoke a little more patience, I think your arguments might go a bit further. Sarcasm, facetiousness, and hyperbole rarely win people over.

Oh I dunno. I was exceedingly patient for several years, and never won anyone over. (Try being patient for 5 years in a couple dozen threads on the same topic!!!)

Nobody doubts your kindness.

Aw, thanks Sweetie!    That makes me feel soooooo much better! Philosopher said I was mean and that made me cry.  

But your frustration overflows and people understandably buck against that.

Nah, it doesn't matter at all. I was as sweet as syrup and they still called me nasty names. Ask Diana or Pablisimo. We walked on eggshells for a very long time. It really didn't matter at all. I know now that it has nothing to do with me, see? And all about how people feel inside themselves when these things are pointed out. It truly doesn't matter how nicely they are pointed out because the guilt comes from within. Nothing I could say or do can change that.

The only thing that satisfied them was soothing them and telling them that it's ok to do what they're doing. And that is asking too much.

At any rate, for the record, I don't even feel any frustration at all. I have in the past, but haven't for awhile. A long while. If anything, I feel light and happy and airy...and often get a chuckle out of this thread...the audaciousness of it. Funny how easy it is to misperceive others, eh?

As for my occasional facetiousness amidst my marathon serious posts, why not let me have a little fun? I mean hey, I'm a person too!

Anyway, enough about me. We've been off-topic long enough and if we don't get back on-topic the mods might split this thread!  

...