[split] "Some people eat animals, some don't."

[Jade]

Ah yes, the good ol' Law of One: Be kind to others until you get tired of the lack of results, then get snarky and sarcastic, because it's justified.

[Monica]

Ah yes, the good ol' Law of One: Be kind to others until you get tired of the lack of results, then get snarky and sarcastic, because it's justified.

Yup. No matter how you slice it, being snarky isn't as bad as enslaving others. (Or, 'serious' as Ra said about enslavement. Somehow I doubt that Ra would have called occasional snarkiness after years of patience a 'serious issue' like enslavement.) So...go ahead and say I'm snarky all you want, while those who keep arguing for their 'right' to 'choose' to enslave others is totally fine, apparently.

And anyway, you must simply 'accept' my snarkiness as a mirror, remember? Let's not forget that!  

...

[Jade]

It's all fine, my friend. I was just trying to give you another perspective. The sad thing is, I'm on your side, but I'm not enough on your side to even see me as an ally. I'll never be vegan as long as you have, I'll never have been on these forums as long as you have, and I'll never try to brow-beat people into submission so that they stop eating meat. So we agree to disagree, even though we have the same end goal.

[Monica]

It's all fine, my friend. I was just trying to give you another perspective. The sad thing is, I'm on your side, but I'm not enough on your side to even see me as an ally. I'll never be vegan as long as you have, I'll never have been on these forums as long as you have, and I'll never try to brow-beat people into submission so that they stop eating meat. So we agree to disagree, even though we have the same end goal.

That's fine. I know I'm Not brow-beating anyone. Everyone comes to this discussion willingly. It's a fucking INTERNET DISCUSSION, remember? We aren't sitting at a restaurant having dinner. That's what everyone seems to forget.

In a DISCUSSION, it's allowed to express ideas! I answer most posts point-by-point, if they're ON-topic. If you perceive that as 'brow-beating' well that is your perception. I don't even relate to the concept of 'submission' so that too is your perception.

Meanwhile, back on topic, another 100,000+ sentient beings just got slaughtered, in the time it took me to type this post.

http://www.adaptt.org/killcounter.html

...

[Jade]

So your point is that, because we aren't face to face, eating dinner, people don't deserve the same level of respect? I mean, that's your point, right? It's just the internet, trolling is encouraged?

Yes, this is a discussion. And I'm participating. You can say I'm off-topic, but I'm not. Also, I won't be eating a single one of those slaughtered sentient beings, so what's your point?

[Monica]

So your point is that, because we aren't face to face, eating dinner, people don't deserve the same level of respect? I mean, that's your point, right? It's just the internet, trolling is encouraged?

No, not at all. My point is that if I was at a restaurant eating dinner with some friends who eat meat, like I was last night for instance, I don't even say a word to them about what they're eating unless they bring it up. And they do bring it up sometimes, and we do have respectful discussions sometimes. In fact, here's something you might not know about me: I talk to about a dozen people about diet every single day. Most of them I have just met for the very first time, and nearly all of them are meat-eaters. We develop friendships and they often ask me for dietary advice. I've been doing this for 25 years. NOT ONCE, EVER, have I EVER gotten into an argument with anyone over meat!

Rather, I now have a large network of business associates and friends, some of whom are now vegan because of our association. Are they all vegan? Of course not. Most aren't. But many of them have taken baby steps towards changing their diet, and some have taken very large steps. The focus is on their health, but sometimes, if the opportunity presents itself, we talk about other aspects, such as the environmental impact of the meat/dairy industry, and, again if the opportunity presents itself, the animals.

In contrast, this is an INTERNET DISCUSSION. Good heavens, trolling? Seriously???

I am incredulous that you consider legitimate, ongoing participation in a discussion to be trolling.

Yes, this is a discussion. And I'm participating. You can say I'm off-topic, but I'm not. Also, I won't be eating a single one of those slaughtered sentient beings, so what's your point?

My point was simply to get back on-topic. The topic isn't about me or you. It's about THEM: the sentient beings who are being enslaved and slaughtered. Another 200+k since you posted and I posted again.

...

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Monica.  I want to.
I've been plotting how to expend my income in a manner that is raw vegan oriented towards a major lessening of overall consumption...
As...crazy as that sounds.

Hemp Seeds
Bananas (or Banas) :3
Mangos
Oranges
Lemon-Lime-Cucumber infused water
Coconut Oil
Avocados
And I'm still devising nutritionally what I'll need to eat to replace whatever I'm missing...

I'd like to cease all consumption of meat and most vegetables.  I wasn't lying when I said I felt pain too, at the prospect of harming that which sustains me.  Foodstuffs or otherwise.  Its what my body wants...  Its just not my top priority and it does hurt my feelings How you basically call me many things I define as the literal Horrors of Hell because I eat a sandwhich with deli meat or cheese, I basically dont even want to make my chicken enchiladas anymore because of how you've made me feel and can't even listen to a McNuggets ad on the radio anymore without gagging.

So yeah, You hurt my feelings, here's the purse and me dumping it on the floor in.an attempt to be honest with you and in an attempt to be friendly...

So, I'm sorry.  Please consider that you can hurt feelings.  You might argue back a killer doesn't deserve that.

To which point you have killed me with the gavel.  As I have asked you to do if you desired.

[Monica]

Jade, you are confusing being firm in one's stance, with disrespect. No one is disrespected by my views. On the other hand, having the audacity to call out someone on a PERSONAL level in an internet discussion is Not only off-topic, but it is exceedingly disrespectful. And several people, including you, have just now done that.

I won't be participating in that any longer. Continue to turn this into an analysis of a person, instead of discussing the topic, and I will report it to the mods. I didn't tolerate this when I was a mod, regardless of who it was.

...

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

On the other hand, having the audacity to call out someone on a PERSONAL level in an internet discussion is Not only off-topic, but it is exceedingly disrespectful. And several people, including you, have just now done that.

I won't be participating in that any longer. Continue to turn this into an analysis of a person, instead of discussing the topic, and I will report it to the mods. I didn't tolerate this when I was a mod, regardless of who it was.

...

May I take this time to highlight this as my point regarding guidelines getting ignored?  -Agreeing with Monica on that-

[Jade]

So your point is that, because we aren't face to face, eating dinner, people don't deserve the same level of respect? I mean, that's your point, right? It's just the internet, trolling is encouraged?

No, not at all. My point is that if I was at a restaurant eating dinner with some friends who eat meat, like I was last night for instance, I don't even say a word to them about what they're eating unless they bring it up. And they do bring it up sometimes, and we do have respectful discussions sometimes. In fact, here's something you might not know about me: I talk to about a dozen people about diet every single day. Most of them I have just met for the very first time, and nearly all of them are meat-eaters. We develop friendships and they often ask me for dietary advice. I've been doing this for 25 years. NOT ONCE, EVER, have I EVER gotten into an argument with anyone over meat!

Rather, I now have a large network of business associates and friends, some of whom are now vegan because of our association. Are they all vegan? Of course not. Most aren't. But many of them have taken baby steps towards changing their diet, and some have taken very large steps. The focus is on their health, but sometimes, if the opportunity presents itself, we talk about other aspects, such as the environmental impact of the meat/dairy industry, and, again if the opportunity presents itself, the animals.

In contrast, this is an INTERNET DISCUSSION. Good heavens, trolling? Seriously???

I am incredulous that you consider legitimate, ongoing participation in a discussion to be trolling.

Yes, this is a discussion. And I'm participating. You can say I'm off-topic, but I'm not. Also, I won't be eating a single one of those slaughtered sentient beings, so what's your point?

My point was simply to get back on-topic. The topic isn't about me or you. It's about THEM: the sentient beings who are being enslaved and slaughtered. Another 200+k since you posted and I posted again.

...

Well look, we have something else in common!

You don't have to justify the work you've done, I know you've changed people's minds, even here, in this thread, and in others. And to be fair, you are spending much more time defending yourself (if we're measuring time in animal deaths) than I am asking you to look at your methods. IMO you spend a lot of time self-aggrandizing, trying to quantify your results, and this action seems to be coming from the ego. Self-reflection is good, yeah? I'm here on these forums not to vegan crusade, but to raise my consciousness and reflect on my distortions so that I can be a clearer facet for the Creator.

Of course people have walked into this discussion willingly. But would you say this (with the exaggerated tone) to one of your friends at dinner?

Please, PLEASE, with a cherry on top, can you PLEASE quit eating animals? It's sooooo much nicer to just quit enslaving them. They are suffering soooooo much and every time you eat them, it makes me cry.

You admitted that you can't change minds, and that you are being facetious for the fun of it, so to me, yeah, that's trolling. I know trolling is completely subjective, though. I'm just stating my opinion.

*prays for all the animals I've killed while typing this post*

[Monica]

You don't have to justify the work you've done, I know you've changed people's minds, even here, in this thread, and in others. And to be fair, you are spending much more time defending yourself (if we're measuring time in animal deaths) than I am asking you to look at your methods. IMO you spend a lot of time self-aggrandizing, trying to quantify your results, and this action seems to be coming from the ego. Self-reflection is good, yeah? I'm here on these forums not to vegan crusade, but to raise my consciousness and reflect on my distortions so that I can be a clearer facet for the Creator.

Of course people have walked into this discussion willingly. But would you say this (with the exaggerated tone) to one of your friends at dinner?

Please, PLEASE, with a cherry on top, can you PLEASE quit eating animals? It's sooooo much nicer to just quit enslaving them. They are suffering soooooo much and every time you eat them, it makes me cry.

You admitted that you can't change minds, and that you are being facetious for the fun of it, so to me, yeah, that's trolling. I know trolling is completely subjective, though. I'm just stating my opinion.

*prays for all the animals I've killed while typing this post*

Documenting

...

[Jade]

I'd like to know which guidelines I have crossed, and where. If you are sending this info to admins, would you send it to me, as well?

[Minyatur]

I do not think any suffering is in vain, one of the things I've tried to put focus on in this discussion is that it is a rightful experience of those who experience it. 

If they are serving by offering an opportunity for others to choose compassion, and the others don't, then it is wasted catalyst...so they have suffered in vain. Not all catalyst gets utilized.

They are serving themselves in experiencing first hand what suffering is as a mean to give shape to their soul.

As such in my view you do perceive a building block of someone else's path as vain and that is pretty much what I meant by belittling others' path.

It appears that you have misunderstood my use of the term 'in vain'. NOT 'vain' as in 'vanity' but IN vain, as in, wasted.

in vain,
without effect or avail; to no purpose:
lives lost in vain; to apologize in vain.

That is exactly how I saw it. Others' experiences being a waste pretty much means belittling their path in my view.

In my view, if the whole point was compassion we wouldn't have evolution going beyond 4D.

Compassion isn't the 'whole' point of all densities. But it is a key point of 3D, for those on the STO path.

That's the reason STS entities serve by harming/controlling/enslaving others...to provide an opportunity for the STO entities to learn compassion and love. Each serves the other in their own way.

This is why harming/controlling/enslaving are inherently STS attributes.

...

I don't think their purpose is to provide opportunities for STO entities to learn compassion and love... They probably have other things in mind and are learning love in their own way at the same time.

[Monica]

Monica.  I want to.
I've been plotting how to expend my income in a manner that is raw vegan oriented towards a major lessening of overall consumption...
As...crazy as that sounds.

Hemp Seeds
Bananas (or Banas) :3
Mangos
Oranges
Lemon-Lime-Cucumber infused water
Coconut Oil
Avocados
And I'm still devising nutritionally what I'll need to eat to replace whatever I'm missing...

I'd like to cease all consumption of meat and most vegetables.  I wasn't lying when I said I felt pain too, at the prospect of harming that which sustains me.  Foodstuffs or otherwise.  Its what my body wants...  Its just not my top priority and it does hurt my feelings How you basically call me many things I define as the literal Horrors of Hell because I eat a sandwhich with deli meat or cheese, I basically dont even want to make my chicken enchiladas anymore because of how you've made me feel and can't even listen to a McNuggets ad on the radio anymore without gagging.

So yeah, You hurt my feelings, here's the purse and me dumping it on the floor in.an attempt to be honest with you and in an attempt to be friendly...

So, I'm sorry.  Please consider that you can hurt feelings.  You might argue back a killer doesn't deserve that.

To which point you have killed me with the gavel.  As I have asked you to do if you desired.

I am NOT responsible for anyone feeling guilt over THEIR actions just because I point out the reality of THEIR actions. Nor am I responsible for anyone feeling hurt when I point out that xyz actions are causing suffering to others, and they happen to engage in xyz actions.

I NEVER called YOU anything at all. You know I didn't.

I called certain actions - supporting the enslavement, rape, torture and killing of sentient beings - inherently STS actions. If you happen to engage in supporting those things, then you are extrapolating from what I said, but I never said anything about YOU directly.

Do you see the difference?

I DO have compassion for you. I know how hard it is. You might be surprised, but I struggled a lot to give up cheese.

Giving up meat was very easy for me. I read The Essene Gospel of Peace, and Survival into the 21st Century at the same time, back in 1983, and that was that. I never looked back, and never again did I ever consider meat to be food.

I was, for the most part, vegan for many years, though I thought of cheese and eggs as 'by-products' of the meat industry and therefore not as serious to avoid as actual dead animals. I rarely ate any dairy or eggs, but didn't have a strong stance if there happened to be dairy or eggs in some food offered. Whereas, I wouldn't eat ANY food with even a tiny bit of meat or broth. That's where I drew the line for many years. (Keep in mind that this was before the internet, and before we had any vegetarian, much less vegan, options at any restaurants.)

Ironically, it was the meat threads here on B4 that got me to finally make a commitment to full vegan. It was researching the meat/dairy industry, in order to post facts about it here on the threads, that opened my eyes. Then, the kicker was B4 member Pablisimo, who is now a dear friend in real life. He too was a vegetarian, but not vegan, but it was something he shared with me about the spiritual and emotional aspects of eating dairy, as well as the physiological aspects of it containing opiods, that got me to go totally vegan.

Going to vegan pot-lucks didn't do it for me. I considered them kin. We were, after all, working for the same cause! I just thought they were more hardcore than I was. I thought it was enough to just be vegetarian, and going totally vegan was optional. Believe it or not, I was actually on the receiving end of some serious reprimand if I forgot and showed up wearing leather shoes!

Avoiding eggs and dairy wasn't a big deal to me, until I experienced some serious stress in my life, including serious illness. That's when I allowed a health practitioner to convince me to start eating 'organic' chicken and fish again, and raw goat's milk. I was very, VERY desperate and had tried everything else: Every diet, herb, supplement, etc. So of course the practitioner immediately seized upon my veg diet and was convinced that was the culprit.

It was VERY hard for me! I had to smother the chicken/fish in hot sauce and pretend it was tofu!! I nearly gagged, I was so grossed out. But I didn't feel guilty because I knew it was 'to the extent necessary for individual metabolism' and I was trying to save my own life.

Well, guess what? It did NOT help AT ALL!!!! Zero.

So after awhile, I went back to being vegetarian, mostly vegan, like I was before. It wasn't until about 10 years later that I found the answer to my health problems (but that's another story). It had absolutely nothing to do with my diet.

But, because of the stress of being sick and other stresses, I began to eat cheese as a comfort food. It didn't help the health problems at all, and in fact made them worse, but it did help me cope with the stresses I was dealing with.

This continued until just a few years ago, right around the time I was very involved in the meat threads. It was Pablisimo who gave me THE missing piece I needed to make the connection about why eating dairy harms animals just as much as eating meat. I went vegan just a few weeks after Pablisimo did, and I have him to thank for that.

I still think that, for some people, just going vegetarian first can be a huge first step. Trying to change to 100% vegan might be daunting. Many people go vegetarian first, then vegan a little later. Others just do it 'cold turkey' and quit all of it overnight.

Had I known back in 1983 what Pablisimo shared with me a few years ago, I surely would have quit all of it at the same time. (As it happened, I quit other vices at the same time I quit meat, all overnight. That's just how I tend to do things.) But some people end up backsliding when they make big changes all at once.

Having said all that, OF COURSE I am happy to help you!!!  

You might want to start with this:

Bring4th Forums Two > Health & Diet  v > Vegetarianism Made E-Z (Recipes and Stuff - NO debate allowed here!)

If you wish to quit eating most vegetables too, that is called Fruitarianism. That is the ultimate karma-free diet because it relies only on fruits, nuts and seeds, all of which fall from the plant so nothing is ever killed.

That's considered very advanced, and many vegans aspire to do that someday. But, in all honesty, it's much more difficult to be healthy if you aren't also eating vegetables. (I consider that a clue! It's interesting how meat and dairy are associated with increased disease risk, whereas fruits and veggies are associated with health and healing.)

Personally, where I'm at right now is 'high raw' vegan meaning it's mostly raw fruits and veggies, with some nuts and seeds. I do still eat some cooked vegan food (rice, beans, tofu, tempeh, etc.) but I feel much better when I'm raw.

If you go raw, you need to make sure you're getting enough calories. That is easily done with lots of fruit! (and/or grains, potatoes, beans, nuts, seeds, etc.) Usually, whenever people have trouble going vegan, it's because they aren't eating enough calories. Veggies have almost No calories, so it's important to include lots of grains, potatoes, beans, etc. OR, if you're high-raw, lots of fruits, nuts and seeds, to get your calories and essential fatty acids (healthy oils).

Here's another thread you might find helpful:

Bring4th Forums Two > Health & Diet  v > Ultimate 4D Diet

Bananas are a good standby because they're cheap. (Rice and beans are also very cheap! Being vegan is much cheaper than eating meat and dairy.) High-raw vegans typically eat anywhere from 10-30 bananas per day.

Sort of like gorillas... We resemble them the most physiologically.

...

[Monica]

^^ post has been edited/added to.

...

[Monica]

I'd like to know which guidelines I have crossed, and where. If you are sending this info to admins, would you send it to me, as well?

It's been awhile since I was a mod so I don't know exactly how they moderate now. When I was a mod, I enforced Guideline #1 by not allowing ANY member to be put on a chopping block and dissected. It didn't matter who it was or how popular their opinion was. First of all, it's OFF-topic to start talking about the person instead of the topic that person is discussing. Secondly, it's an obvious violation of: The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea.

Key word here is personally.

...

[Minyatur]

Is it beyond you to picture a Love that lets suffering happens and which can also dip it's fingers into it?

Suffering just for the sake of suffering? What you are describing is the STS path.

As Q'uo said, "It is a dark and bloody path. There are those who prefer it. We are Not those. We are of the radiant path."

Suffering for the sake of suffering is just what suffering is, an experience.

Polarity whether STO or STS in my view is a self-serving way to work on yourself by interacting with others.

If one makes choices based on how they will polarized, then yes, I'd agree.

I'd say it goes beyond that, experiences with others will always remain nothing but a way to act with yourself. Hurting others being a way to hurt yourself and healing others a way to heal yourself, as we all are one. (Might not be apparent in 3D earth)

I can view animal sufferings and feel compassion for it without myself wanting other-selves' experiences to be different for my sake simply because it wouldn't be consonant with my own self-definition of love.

Groan

Do you seriously think we want to answer the call of the oppressed because we selfishly want to control their experiences and deny them their chosen suffering? Are you seriously suggesting that our compassion towards the oppressed is actually selfishness??

And do you really disregard their calls for help that much? Do you think they're calling because...because...well exactly WHY do you think they'd be calling for help if they wanted to keep on suffering?

Do you really not see that they are calling for help in a desperate effort to elicit some compassion and thus facilitate the opening of the green ray for both themselves and the ones extending compassion to them? Do you really not see that?

I continue to scratch my head in bewilderment. Folks, these are basic concepts. Kindergarten stuff.

Like Ra said, if the other-self is hungry, the appropriate response is to FEED them! Yes, by all means, use some wisdom too, but FEED them!!!

Billions of other-selves are ENSLAVED and crying out. FREE them!!! YOU have the power to! Each of you...by not longer contributing to the demand for their enslavement.

...

Groans back

I am a bit cold hearted because I see everything in term of experiences of the Creator of Himself.

[Jade]

Would you clarify where I personally attacked you? I'm being honest. I've re-read my posts and can't find anything I would consider a personal attack. So if you could clarify where I did that, it would help me in the future.

I guess I just get confused when the line gets crossed. I'm not talking *about* you, I am talking *to* you, which seems like a big difference. You are entirely free to leave the conversation, and it will cease. And to me, it is on topic, because I think your approach to "vegan activism" can be counterproductive. I'm not saying that YOU are counterproductive, or necessarily snarky at heart, I'm just saying that actions that you are taking may be seen that way. There's a difference, isn't there?

I think you may be confusing me being firm in my stance, with me being disrespectful. I think that happens sometimes, too.

[Monica]

Would you clarify where I personally attacked you? I'm being honest. I've re-read my posts and can't find anything I would consider a personal attack. So if you could clarify where I did that, it would help me in the future.

I guess I just get confused when the line gets crossed. I'm not talking *about* you, I am talking *to* you, which seems like a big difference. You are entirely free to leave the conversation, and it will cease. And to me, it is on topic, because I think your approach to "vegan activism" can be counterproductive. I'm not saying that YOU are counterproductive, or necessarily snarky at heart, I'm just saying that actions that you are taking may be seen that way. There's a difference, isn't there?

I think you may be confusing me being firm in my stance, with me being disrespectful. I think that happens sometimes, too.

You are talking about a person instead of the topic. If you wish to talk about personal issues with someone, that is what the pm system is for. Or maybe some thread devoted to working out personal issues. I started one of those threads back when I was a mod for specifically that, but I think they locked it...not sure. This thread is about eating animals.

Talking TO a person ABOUT that person is still off-topic. Furthermore, analyzing a person's actions and motivations, making accusations, etc. are all various degrees of attacking that person. Most definitely OFF-topic and Not allowed, at least not when I was mod. Maybe things have changed, Not sure. Doesn't matter. I won't participate. I replied very minimally and to say I've spent more time 'defending myself' is absurd. I have nothing to defend.

I'd done with this. If you have more to say to me personally, please do so via pm.

...

[Diana]

To everyone in general:

Could you please stop judging Monica? If anyone feels compelled to call her or anyone out on something, perhaps a PM would be better. I don't see how it advances this thread in a positive or efficacious way. Not to mention, it's unkind.

Who here is perfect? You can't satisfy everyone's expectations all the time. Who here can read all of their own posts and claim to have communicated in the most perfect way? Glass houses and all that.

It is true that no matter how the vegetarian point of view has been presented here, insults and name-calling and hurtful remarks (and images) flew continuously toward those trying to make a case to stop animal suffering. Pablisimo was one of the kindest people I have ever come across, and he and I and Monica were walking on eggshells for years just trying to DISCUSS this topic. Can't we be cut a little slack here? It IS a DISCUSSION after all. 

I have come across snarkiness, jabs, and direct hurtful remarks all over this forum. Everyone seemed to embrace Bluebell unconditionally, who threw nasty comments all over the place. But Monica is held to the wall for a little sarcasm? Where's the love folks?

I do find it ironic when someone is unkindly pointing the finger at another member and telling them they are not being kind.

[Jade]

So we can throw Bluebell under the bus, but we shouldn't talk about others, right?  

[Monica]

So we can throw Bluebell under the bus, but we shouldn't talk about others, right?  

She didn't say to throw Bluebell under the bus. She was just showing the contrast.

...

[Monica]

I don't think ANYONE should be fair game to be ganged up on and dissected. 'Back in my day' I didn't allow it, ever, No matter who it was.

...

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I do find it ironic when someone is unkindly pointing the finger at another member and telling them they are not being kind.

May I take this time now to further point out that my initial post, which I think started all of this (which I used Monica's quote to point out another issue of it) and this Quote (which I am now quoting in agreement), IS LITERALLY the point I was trying to make from the very start.

Why are we so mean to each other?

[Diana]

I've been plotting how to expend my income in a manner that is raw vegan oriented towards a major lessening of overall consumption...

Hemp Seeds
Bananas (or Banas) :3
Mangos
Oranges
Lemon-Lime-Cucumber infused water
Coconut Oil
Avocados
And I'm still devising nutritionally what I'll need to eat to replace whatever I'm missing...

I think you have an awesome start here. I do recommend that you get a good RAW cookbook for reference. I have one by Juliano, called "Raw." It helps because of all the variations and combinations of raw foodstuffs.

Lessoning one's attachment and addictions to food is a very very good step towards evolving in my opinion. 

[Monica]

May I take this time now to further point out that my initial post, which I think started all of this (which I used Monica's quote to point out another issue of it) and this Quote (which I am now quoting in agreement), IS LITERALLY the point I was trying to make from the very start.

Why are we so mean to each other?

Not sure what you mean by 'mean.'

To me, 'mean' is saying "You are blah blah blah and you did this and this and I don't like you and you are nasty, judgmental, controlling, rude, insert-other-insults-here."

Whereas, legitimate discussion is: "I think this and this about xyz topic...I think xyz actions are blah blah blah" and if anyone happens to engage in xyz actions, they can extrapolate whatever they want from that, but No insults were ever directed at them personally.

Do you see the difference?

Not to mention, that it is 'mean' to enslave, torture and kill a sentient being.

More mean to DO that, than to point out that it's being done.

So people are saying "You are mean for saying that something I'm doing is mean" when what they're doing is far, far meaner than saying it's mean. See what I mean?

...

[Monica]

I think you have an awesome start here. I do recommend that you get a good RAW cookbook for reference. I have one by Juliano, called "Raw." It helps because of all the variations and combinations of raw foodstuffs.

There are now tons of raw recipe books. I mostly eat green smoothies these days, but there are lots of elaborate recipes, if you like to spend time preparing gourmet food.

Lessoning one's attachment and addictions to food is a very very good step towards evolving in my opinion. 

Yeah. Pablisimo helped me realize that I was actually addicted to something containing opioids - cheese! He really opened my eyes.

...

[Diana]

So we can throw Bluebell under the bus, but we shouldn't talk about others, right?  

I was just pointing out that she was accepted for who she was, no matter what—even crossing guidelines all over the place. I'm just asking that a little acceptance be given to Monica, a little kind understanding. 

And I will also take responsibility for using Bluebell as an example, though it was not my intention to throw her under the bus. I should have said, some members, though if I had my point would not have been as clear. That is not an excuse, just a reason.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

More mean to DO that, than to point out that it's being done.

So people are saying "You are mean for saying that something I'm doing is mean" when what they're doing is far, far meaner than saying it's mean. See what I mean?

...

You have metaphorically killed me with the gavel right here.

As in you've judged my opinion null.  That is what is mean to me.

Does this help clarify?  I don't mean to judge in reaction,I just don't know how to show you that you have nullified many.opinions of others in arguing their cruelty for how they eat.

Its not said to hurt or dissect you this time.  As a human to a human.  I am worried you're being cruel unintentionally.  Maybe I have misread your entire tone across the many threads I've read your posts.  I could very well be wrong and overreacting.

I just noticed...That you can be mean.  In ways that legitimately made me question your motives or your identifying as of being STO oriented.

I know I crossed the line, Diana is right about the judging.  This is me trying to be change.  Some of us don't adhere to.the guidelines, nothin is done about it.

So we need to make the guidelines matter, when we break them, that catalyst will return, all of those are inevitable.

So when it does return,we need to be sincere, honest, open, at the very least considerate.

This forum taught me that.  You taught me that.

I can be mean.  I do not want to be.  If I am please tell me, if I dont listen then please ask others to disregard me.

All's fair in time, in the Way of Learning.

I am in the process of mentally preparing to once more give up cheese...  -tear rolls down cheek-
Andmany processed foods...  preservatives, chemicals and GMO's.
Ihope to maintain that eating style too.

[Monica]

Jade, amidst the off-topic comments, you did bring up a legitimate point: Discussing this volatile topic in-person as opposed to an internet discussion.

It has nothing to do with respect vs disrespect. The topic is the same, regardless of whether it's in a restaurant or in an internet discussion. Opinions are the same.

The only difference is whether the people actually chose to join the discussion.

In a restaurant, having dinner with friends, who are almost always meat-eaters being that the vast majority of the population are meat-eaters, eating meat isn't usually the topic of discussion. We might be talking about all sort of other things, and the subject of meat never come up at all.

Some vegans choose to bring up the topic, every chance they get. Most don't. Why? Because we must co-exist with meat-eaters, whether we like it or not. It's pretty near impossible to be an activist every time we dine with meat-eaters. A vegan can't talk about meat to his/her boss at work and still expect to keep his/her job, so s/he must just swallow it most of the time.

Whereas, here in THIS thread, meat IS the topic of discussion! It's an entirely different setting! Here, we are already talking about meat! That is the difference!

Most vegans will talk about their views if an opportunity presents itself, and if they can do so without jeopardizing their job, business, whatever. It has nothing to do with respect. Most vegans I know still love and respect their friends and families even though they're meat-eaters. But they aren't ever going to say that they respect the meat-eating itself!

And when the topic does come up in social circles, you can bet that we DO voice our opinions! But usually, we have only a few minutes to do so. Not several years of ongoing, deep discussion like here on this internet forum.

That is a HUGE contrast!

Plus, we have the added dimension of these discussions being based on the Law of One. That alone makes these discussions MUCH more complex than a brief encounter over dinner.

This discussion is about meat-eating. I love and respect all of you, regardless of whether you eat animals. But don't ask me to respect the eating of animals itself. And that is exactly what we're talking about here - the eating of animals.

What happens a lot is that people confuse a viewpoint about eating meat, with the actual person. The viewpoint about eating meat is NOT directed to the actual person! If the person eats meat, then THEY are personalizing a general comment into one that is perceived as personal. That is their doing. They are personalizing a discussion about a topic that isn't personal.

I really dislike football. I think it's a silly game and dreadfully boring. I can think of 1000 other things I'd rather do than watch a football game.

Any football lovers here? No disrespect intended. My comment was about football, NOT about YOU. If you happen to love football, go for it.

It's the same with meat, EXCEPT that football doesn't have any victims, and eating meat does. That minor little detail cannot be ignored. It is part of the equation.

I hope that this clarifies. There is a very big difference between respecting the person and respecting an action.

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