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    Bring4th Bring4th Community Wanderer Stories Dear Friends

    Thread: Dear Friends


    Elle (Offline)

    Newbie
    Posts: 16
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    Joined: Jul 2020
    #31
    07-15-2020, 06:44 PM (This post was last modified: 07-16-2020, 08:15 AM by Elle.)
    While I realize that you use the term “you” in a more general sense, I feel can really only address them from my individual point of view.

    (07-15-2020, 08:44 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Being aware at all times, to act based on your own experience and your judgment of what feels appropriate. However (and there's always a however, right?), how do you cope with the fact that you're limited; that the best of your judgment, your reason, the most sincere and honest intentions sometimes won't just do it?

    In my earlier years, I coped by placing blame on everyone and everything else but myself. This resulted in unwanted feelings of anxiety, frustration, shame, regret, and judgement of myself and others, which seemed to go hand in hand with a repeating of what I saw as unwanted patterns at the time. Finally, I was exhausted feeling all those negative emotions, so after long analysis (what I call to “work s*** out” in my head,) I realized wasn’t addressing the one constant in every scenario: me. I can’t control others, but I can control what I do and how I respond to things.

    Additionally, I realized while I understood others made mistakes and that was really okay, I’m easy to forgive: I know nobody’s perfect, and everyone’s just doing what they think is right. However, I found I had a hard time forgiving and accepting one of the most important people in my life: myself. When I made a mistake, it was unacceptable, unforgivable even. I strived for perfection of self and the admiration of others in everything I did, and each time I stumbled I was harder on myself. I don’t know the exact chain of events, but at some point as I was working s*** out, I felt a warm wave of relief wash over me (this what I would consider a “level up” as I mentioned earlier.) I’m really no different from anyone else. Why should I do my best to forgive everyone else in my life and not myself? Why I am not allowed to make mistakes and still be accepted just like I do for others? I really couldn’t come up with an answer, so my logic dictated that I can only do my best to forgive, understand and accept (love, even) myself along with everyone else.

    Currently, the best I can say is I cope is with the forgiveness, acceptance and understanding (love) of myself and others combined with my internal engine to make choices in any given scenario. If my choices ended up with a result I didn’t intend, for better or worse, I’m still here. And by being here, I’m allowed the opportunity to analyze the whole situation, including what lead up to it as best I can so that I can apply what I learned in the future should I want to avoid a similar situation, or find myself in a similar situation, or if someone asks my advice on a similar situation. It definitely took some time to get to this point, and I still make choices that result in what appears to be undesired outcomes (at the time) but I find it helps every now and then when I feel like I’ve stumbled to remind myself, “It’s okay. You’re doing fine. What did you learn?”

    (07-15-2020, 08:44 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Among these "what ifs" that you put: 'what if' you misjudge or simply fail in your attempt to serve? How do you deal with the fact that fallibility is intrinsic to the human nature, and that no matter what density you're originally from, how many millions of years you have in your spiritual curriculum, you're still prone to failure, to unbalanced acts, to blunders and equivoques?

    For this question, I’m going to have to refer back to my response above this one.

    (07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: How do you cope with your own fallibility? How do you assimilate that, sometimes, the desire to "help" others is simply a projection from within, a desire to express your feelings and let them be echoed back to you?

    I’m sorry, but I don’t think I understand what you’re saying here, as I really don’t know how to answer this. Maybe rephrase it?

    (07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Do you rely solely on your own instincts to discern what is good and what is not?

    Along with my first response, I suppose I just rely on the tools I feel I have available to me, as all of them have gotten me to where I’m at, and I’m still around to keep experiencing/learning and help others, if they wish. The tools I have are what I describe as my internal engine: experience, logic, reason and emotion.

    Using personal experience, I have in the past, as I suppose a lot of young kids have, both been a bully and have been bullied. By being on both sides of the coin, I learned that while I gained really nothing for myself by being a bully aside from a moment of feeling “power” over another. However, when I was bullied, I felt small, weak, unimportant and insignificant. Those experiences taught me that whatever temporary experience of “power” I felt as a bully (or tyrant,) my sympathy, empathy (or love) of others tells me those negative feelings I’ve personally experienced isn’t right to be imposed on others against their wishes.

    Using logic, I apply that same feeling to every situation whether I have personally been on both sides of coin or not. For example, while I have never kidnapped and tortured a person or personally been kidnapped and tortured, I still don’t believe it’s the right way for me to act, as those are still tyrannical acts of power, as I see them. If I can empathize with what can be considered a much lesser act of power imposed on me by being bullied in a schoolyard, I most definitely don’t want to inflict those same acts of imposing power at much more severe degree as I see it.

    Using reason, I understand I may find myself in a scenario where I decide it is the right answer to play the role of a tyrant. For example, by stopping a small child who chases a ball into a busy street not yet knowing the potential consequences of doing so, that child and his friends may see me as a tyrant, as I’ve imposed unwanted (at the time) power over him and stopped him from doing what he wanted  to do. I imposed my will on another person, which is something I find much discomfort in doing, as I believe in free will; however, my sense of reason in this scenario dictates to me that this act of tyranny was the right thing to do. Additionally, the child’s parents may view that act of “tyranny” as acceptable or even desired, if they decide it was of assistance to them.

    Using emotion, in this same scenario, I find can still “act a tyrant” without anger and malice, but with love and understanding. And through this focused understanding that the child is simply being a child, I’m better able to communicate the reasoning for my actions with the child and others who may perceived me as a tyrant at the time. I find I’m able to communicate substantially better when I don't feel distracted by emotions like anger, irritation and annoyance.

    (07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: From the aforementioned premise, of human fallibility, you should also take into account your own limits. Sometimes your very best capability won't just do it. What do you do, then? Shall the burdens of life become too great for you to bear — what do you do?

    The best I can answer this is to refer back to my original response.

    (07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: How often do you turn yourself towards The Source?

    I’m not sure what you mean by this. Could you describe what you call The Source?

    (07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Absolutely. Would you mind sharing more examples of such a display?

    I generally experience uneasiness or discomfort in interjecting myself in others’ lives, unsolicited. I feel like the guy in the truck showing up uninvited to a vegan’s front door hawking vacuum-sealed T-bones. So, aside from polite greetings, I generally don’t initiate engagement with others aside those few close to me. If I do decide to engage someone I don’t know, this is typically when my internal engine has signaled me to do so: I know when it feels right to reach out, as I have a feeling or get a sort of internal nag. If I choose ignore that feeling, I tend to feel uneasy about it, not right with myself. Off balance. This is when I would go back to analyzing what led up to that feeling and how I could do things differently in the future to avoid that uneasy feeling. I find I experience this most when I feel someone wants my help, but I’ve decided I’m too busy with myself. On the flip side, if I choose engage unsolicited, discussions seem contrived and forced, and few leave me with a positive feelings afterwards. After analysis of those encounters, I typically find that I felt like I was forcing unwanted interaction.

    In open forums such as this, I feel comfortable openly and actively engaging, as the very existence of an open forum logically tells me that any and all dialog (within the parameters of the forum) are welcomed.

    I also feel actively engaging those few I am luckily enough to consider friends. Throughout the years (even decades,) we’ve come to an understanding that any form of directly engaging one another on any topic they wish to speak about is not only appropriate, but desired. I reach out to them whenever it feels right, and them to me. Maybe I haven’t heard from someone in a while and it just feels right to send them a meme or joke I think they’d enjoy. For better or worse, I have a very take-it-or-leave-it approach to who I am as a person and very few have taken it, most have left it. I cherish those few to still choose to be my friend.

    For anyone else who directly engages me, either online, in the face, etc., this is when I rely on my internal engine as to how to respond. One example could be a senior citizen vet, who, after a simple “good morning” during a chance encounter while out walking my dog, spontaneously engaged me in conversation. I had many opportunities to choose to disengage and get on with my own day, but my internal engine told me that this person seemed to really need an ear at this point in time, and it felt right to lend it. For 45 minutes, he provided his views on topics such as dogs, current events, his service to the country, and racial matters among other things. I interacted as best I could with my own perspective, even though it varied somewhat from his, especially on the race topic. There was no argument, but simple sharing of two perspectives, and we both went own our ways having learned something from the interaction.

    This may seem an odd example, but it stands out in my mind at this time: a crow or similar looking bird landed on my leg in my back yard. When I looked at him (or her) it appeared his wing was injured. He didn’t attack or peck at me, he didn’t chirp, he just jumped to ground and then up on a short fence a little ways from me and stood there. My internal engine told me this crow seemed to asking for some sort of assistance with its wing and it felt right to try and help him as best I can. I live a block from a vet, so the crow allowed me to scoop him up into my hand, place him in a loose bag and take him to the vet. At the vet, I placed the bird in the palm of my hand to show the vet his wing and the bird just stood there waiting. The vet eventually told me they wanted nothing to do with the bird as they didn’t treat wild animals, so they suggested I call the wildlife department. Outside, I made the call while the bird stood next to me on the curb in the parking lot. They said if the bird wasn’t attacking anyone, there was nothing they would do. Kind of at a loss, I allowed the crow to get back into the palm of my hand and headed home. While walking, I considered other things I could do for him to help, such as rinse his wing off and clean it, but it didn’t make sense to take it inside, as I have cats. Eventually, the thought went through my mind of, “man, what am I gonna do with this guy?” and as soon as I finished the thought, the bird flew off from the palm of my hand on his own and landed in a distant tree and didn’t come back. When I told this story to my friends and family, the main consensus was that firstly, they almost wouldn't have believed it had I not taken a picture of the bird in my hand. And second, the whole thing was borderline ridiculous to them because I went so far out of my way in attempt to help some random bird. All, I could say is that since that bird seemed to be in dire enough straits to come to someone like me, it just felt like the right thing to do.

    (07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: I'd like you, Elle, to respond based on your accumulated feelings and perceptions about the world you've lived in so far. After going through so much hassle, so much trouble, so much oscillation; after being mistreated by human society as a whole, why would you bother to help the old lady at the grocery store; why would you bother to share anything; why wouldn't you simply recrudesce instead of growing? Why do you insist in getting up even though you've fallen again and again and again?

    I’ve asked myself this question at different points in my life: “Why go on? Why not just end yourself?” I’ve asked myself this in my darkest states, during my time of numbness and even during my times of contentment. And each time, I end up with the same logical outcome: if I’m here, but I don’t know for what purpose, then my purpose is simply to be here. To experience this life as my internal engine drives me and do what I feel is right. In my darkest times, what felt right was to not inflict upon those few who still chose to be in my life, the trauma and fallout of dealing with my suicide. I saw that I could still bring them happiness just by being me, and I saw to end myself is to end that happiness I still could provide for them, and everyone else I chance to meet in the future. I suppose this could be considered love of others.

    Once I got past that step, I had to consider what if I no longer had those people, or anyone, in my life and it was just me? My logic told me that if chose to end myself, what new experiences would I unknowingly miss out on that could eventually result in personal peace and happiness for myself? Like I was reading a book and if I closed it halfway through, I’d never know how the story ended. I realize there are still surprises, there is still the potential to find personal peace and happiness, so maybe I should just finish the story and find out. Besides, who’s to say, but me, whether or not I'm worthy of even obtaining that peace and happiness? I suppose this could be considered love of self.

    Thanks so much again for the dialogue; this back-and-forth allows me to better organize and communicate my thoughts. Aside from my responses to your specific questions, I’ll think on all that you’ve written. Work s*** out.
    [+] The following 1 member thanked thanked Elle for this post:1 member thanked Elle for this post
      • meadow-foreigner
    Minyatur (Offline)

    Voice of Unity
    Posts: 5,303
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    Joined: Dec 2014
    #32
    07-15-2020, 08:02 PM
    Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your story. To me it illustrates well the dangers of the veil, that is confusion.

    When we start touching certain truths, we may perceive an incomplete version of them or see them as without their context among other truths. Then these paradoxes of perception can easily become a mental prison, within which we are entertaining our own hell. Suffering is just one thematic, it does not have to be the central theme of anyone's life.

    From experience, I have found that the most rewarded form of seeking is that of sincere wonder. There is little need to overthink, to render everything either meaningful or meaningless. Let your reality captivate you like you are a child and its mysteries will speak to you. Just on this Earth there are more wonders than any single human will be able to witness in a lifetime, beyond that we live in a Universe in which we cannot see any end to its countless galaxies and admist it all you are. Is that not wonderful?
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      • hounsic, Elle, flofrog
    Elle (Offline)

    Newbie
    Posts: 16
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    Joined: Jul 2020
    #33
    07-15-2020, 09:05 PM
    Minyatur, Wonder is definitely a part of my wanting to see how this story plays out. Thanks so much for your words and I wish you well.

      •
    meadow-foreigner (Offline)

    Member
    Posts: 264
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    Joined: Dec 2019
    #34
    07-16-2020, 10:14 AM
    Hello Elle. Time to raise the bar once again. I'm glad you've been holding pretty well up to this point, though now I guess I'll strike a nerve or two. Bear in mind that I did read your whole post in the adequate context of what you wrote, however for the sake of linguistics: have you ever stopped to wonder why you use the words you use to communicate to others? The terms you employ? The nouns, adjectives, and the structuring of your sentences? Well, now it's a great time to check it out:

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: The tools I have are what I describe as my internal engine: experience, logic, reason and emotion.

    What about your feelings?

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: Why should I do my best to forgive everyone else in my life and not myself?

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: Why I am not allowed to make mistakes and still be accepted just like I do for others?

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: [...]so my logic dictated that[...]

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: I’m really no different from anyone else.

    Your narrative reminds me of the following lyrics:

    "You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder
    You know it's going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you get older"


    The way you over-analyze and over-do things all by yourself, almost single-handedly using your "engine", your logic. You even term yourself as an engine instead of a biological organism. Have you ever considered that, no matter how endless you might be, you're actually small?

    "And when you lose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown
    And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone"


    How long will you be able to hold tight the reins of your own sea of pain?

    "And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around
    So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone
    Dragged down by the stone"

    • Would you rather wait to grow older to just then realize that you lived a half-life?
    • Who doesn't try to break away from this crippling dis-ease of the inaptitude of human society?
    • Who doesn't numb their selves with avalanches of esoteric material, with over-work, over-sleep, over-meditation, over-fantasies?
    • Who doesn't try, in vain, to flee from their own reflected image with all kinds of "all is well" and logical rigmaroles?
    • Who doesn't try, in vain, to escape from their own torment with fear-inducing speeches, such as the imminence of a new calamity, of an alien outburst, of global collapse?
    • Who doesn't, futilely, to safeguard their own afflicted self with esoteric, scientific, astrological, cosmic, Pleiadian, Arcturian, intra-terrestrial, entrepreneurial, or whatever mind-numbing-distracting activities you choose?

    Hey, it's easier to blame something for our dismay: be it "Confusion Principle", "Pre-Incarnative Choices", "Immutable Human Nature", "The Government", "Aliens", "Earth's Quarantine", "Intergalactic War", etc.

    This way it's easier for your rational self to just keep functioning well.

    "I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
    Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
    Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
    If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?"


    Are you just a "part" of the "whole"? Are you just a displaceable, disposable piece of a bigger clockwork that is human society? How hard (and for how long) are you willing to "put up a fight"? A fight that seems to be completely lost, for helping the lady at the grocery store won't prevent the suffering inflicted by humankind, in general, to keep occurring to other humans and even to animal life, such as to the bird you aided?

    How long will you be fit enough to provide for society before you're replaced by a younger, more suitable person? How long will you be remembered until you're forgotten by those that allegedly love you?

    "Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending
    That everyone's expendable and no-one has a real friend
    And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner
    And everything's done under the sun
    And you believe at heart, everyone's a killer"


    Feel free to spare yourself of egoistic retorts, such as "but I don't think like this" and such. We're here to show you ideas, not to argue about their applicability in anyone's specific life; after all, it's just the lyrics of a song.

    "Who was born in a house full of pain
    Who was trained not to spit in the fan
    Who was told what to do by the man
    Who was broken by trained personnel
    Who was fitted with collar and chain
    Who was given a pat on the back
    Who was breaking away from the pack
    Who was only a stranger at home
    Who was ground down in the end
    Who was found dead on the phone
    Who was dragged down by the stone"


    Out of pain you were born; out of pain you were forged;
    You were tamed by society, whether peacefully or by force;
    Collar and chain shackled you, as you had begun to break away from the pack of sheep that numbingly, though euphorically, march towards the slaughterhouse to be harvested, to be food;
    You were rewarded for behaving like expected from you and your assigned roles;
    After all is said and done, you're a stranger at your own home, be it the seat of your body or the seat of your spirit;
    In the end, the pain that you felt crushed you down; you can barely speak out your burdens, your weights.
    That stone that you're becoming should drag you down the depths of the sea of your suppressed feelings, to drown you away.

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: “Why go on? Why not just end yourself?”

    That is a great question. From my own perspective and in the best of my capability, I can tell you:

    "Because I ain't a just being."

    I don't even think human beings in general, however hard they try, whether alone or collectively, will ever be able to achieve a state of true justice. The most we can do is recognize our own fallibility, our own truckload of shortcomings, and turn ourselves to The Source, The True Source Of It All, and offer the little we have to provide: our plethora of inconsistencies, of misjudgments, of not-so-great intentions, of not-so-great actions, of not-so-great service.

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: [...]forgiveness, acceptance and understanding (love) of myself and others combined with my internal engine to make choices in any given scenario.

    Well, after you described your "internal engine parts", I sincerely doubt you whole-heartedly and 100% forgive both yourself and others; likewise with acceptance and understanding, not to mention love.

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: I imposed my will on another person, which is something I find much discomfort in doing, as I believe in free will; however, my sense of reason in this scenario dictates to me that this act of tyranny was the right thing to do.

    People impose their wills upon each other all the time. People have their liberty withtaken from them all the time, from innocent people being condemned for uncommitted crimes to slavery and abuse of all kinds. Do you believe in free will?
    Are you aware that regardless of what you think or protest against, such a certain abuse in life, some people will simply say that "you actually chose it before you incarnated".

    I'll ask you again: do you sincerely believe in free will?

    (07-15-2020, 06:44 PM)Elle Wrote: I’m not sure what you mean by this. Could you describe what you call The Source?

    If you're a fish and know how to swim but doesn't know how to walk, how do you expect to describe what legs feel like? Still, I'll try to answer:

    The Source is that what is before and after the silence, before the beginning and after the end, the everlasting cause of itself, that which words, music, monuments, and even birth itself pale in comparison to the magnitude of what It is. Still, It is closer to you than your fastest thought; It stands out by unfathomable magnitudes the most distant, far-fetched, and the most powerful thought, feeling, act or whatever should one conjecture.

    Yet! It is to you as both the Perfect Mother and the Perfect Father is to a child, should it only have the humility and the courage to turn towards It, such child's would be undefeatable and such child's fate would irrevocably be brimming with victory.
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      • Elle
    Diana (Offline)

    Fringe Dweller
    Posts: 4,580
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    #35
    07-16-2020, 11:34 AM
    (07-16-2020, 10:14 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Hey, it's easier to blame something for our dismay: be it "Confusion Principle", "Pre-Incarnative Choices", "Immutable Human Nature", "The Government", "Aliens", "Earth's Quarantine", "Intergalactic War", etc.

    This is true. But I still take issue with the veil. Tongue

    Seriously though, there is the concept of transformation/alchemy/evolution—and to engage with such there must be movement. There is no movement in blame. Blame stops everything.

    No matter how difficult life is—and justice does not yet exist as far as I can tell in human society—one must move forward on one's own. It is yet another paradox, in that, even connected to whatever Source there is (the OIC; the implicate universe, the infinite field of potential, etc.), one still has the responsibility of self-evolution, of self-accountability. No one else, or nothing else, can do that for us. We may have support, but ultimately, we must do this alone. (As I see it.)

      •
    Elle (Offline)

    Newbie
    Posts: 16
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    #36
    07-16-2020, 12:09 PM (This post was last modified: 07-16-2020, 12:44 PM by Elle.)
    (07-16-2020, 10:14 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: What about your feelings?
    I define feeling as something of internal nag of what tells me right from wrong. Emotions are sensations such as anger, elation, excitement, sorrow, irritation, shame, anxiety, pity, etc. With more understanding of self and others, those negative emotions such as anger and irritation don’t seem to manifest much anymore.

    For example, I still feel bouts of irritation, but it’s typically when someone has requested something of me and, while I don’t want to stop what I’m doing for me, I might get that feeling inside that I should help. If I don’t help, that irritation then typically manifests as a sort of disharmony inside later on. I think about what happened and I learn from that experience. The next time a similar situation arises, I reorganize my priorities and offer assistance when requested if I get the feeling that I should. I find I’m still able to get what I want done for myself, albeit at a later time, and later l more harmony inside that we both had a positive experience.

    At this time, I suppose the best I can say is that my emotions could be a sort of indicator which is manifested by what I feel is right in order to achieve internal balance between myself, others and my environment.
    (07-16-2020, 10:14 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: The way you over-analyze and over-do things all by yourself, almost single-handedly using your "engine", your logic. You even term yourself as an engine instead of a biological organism. Have you ever considered that, no matter how endless you might be, you're actually small?
    Everyone has hobbies and interests, and one of my several is thinking about all manner of things, from as many angles I can find (myself, my close community, outer community, various perceptions, etc.) until I can reach what I feel the root or source. For me, there is no over-analysis unless I feel a sort of discord when realizing can’t identify a source, root or heart of the matter. I’ve learned to identify this feeling and accept that I don’t know/don’t have enough info, file it away, and I’ll let time do it's things and see what's later revealed.
    (07-16-2020, 10:14 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Well, after you described your "internal engine parts", I sincerely doubt you whole-heartedly and 100% forgive both yourself and others; likewise with acceptance and understanding, not to mention love.
    I’m by no means a saint and there are actions others choose to take against that I personally find abhorrent, disgusting and vile, just as there are actions I take that others feel the same about. I can’t say that I’m pious enough to forgive those actions, but I understand and accept that others have the choice/capability to perform them. Additionally, I can choose to take measures so that I personally don’t experience them, and do my best to help those I come in direct contact who also don’t want to experience them.
    (07-16-2020, 10:14 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: I'll ask you again: do you sincerely believe in free will?
    I accept that it is a possibility. In my earlier post, I speculated/quoted Ra, that this life could be a combination of free will/choice in any given scenario, it could be programed/fate, or a combination of both: program and catalyst. Again, I really don’t know, which is why I defer to my internal engine and operate as I see fit.

    I’ll take in the rest of what you’ve written, but I really find myself going back to the one thing I currently know: I’m here and doing what I think is right in any scenario presented, learning and teaching of self and others along the way while trying to maintain a balance between myself, others and my environment. Will I always think this way? Who knows. I’ve only had this position for a couple of years and just recently added the “teaching” and “of self and others” aspect since reading the Ra Material. Change is always. The rest of the story has yet to be written or read or both.
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      • meadow-foreigner
    meadow-foreigner (Offline)

    Member
    Posts: 264
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    Joined: Dec 2019
    #37
    07-18-2020, 05:07 AM
    (07-16-2020, 11:34 AM)Diana Wrote:
    (07-16-2020, 10:14 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Hey, it's easier to blame something for our dismay: be it "Confusion Principle", "Pre-Incarnative Choices", "Immutable Human Nature", "The Government", "Aliens", "Earth's Quarantine", "Intergalactic War", etc.

    This is true. But I still take issue with the veil. Tongue

    Seriously though, there is the concept of transformation/alchemy/evolution—and to engage with such there must be movement. There is no movement in blame. Blame stops everything.

    No matter how difficult life is—and justice does not yet exist as far as I can tell in human society—one must move forward on one's own. It is yet another paradox, in that, even connected to whatever Source there is (the OIC; the implicate universe, the infinite field of potential, etc.), one still has the responsibility of self-evolution, of self-accountability. No one else, or nothing else, can do that for us. We may have support, but ultimately, we must do this alone. (As I see it.)

    "Justice doesn't exist". How do you come to such a conclusion?
    The attribute of what is just or adequate in any given circumstance is a matter of endless debate and weighing on the boring, senseless scales of time and space justice.
    It's easier, from a spiritual perspective, to throw it all on the "you asked for it" rhetoric and leave it like that. Who would dare to explain such an unexplainable thing?

    Well, I'll try.

    It's easy to judge. Easier it is to judge a fractal image by a single pixel instead of "The Whole". Natural; agreeable upon, right?

    Who doesn't agree that the world is filled with suffering? Who doesn't agree that things ain't kinda good the way they are?

    But then, who makes the judgment? A human being? A biased individual? Heck, a 3D entity, whom, in comparison to a mere life's timeline has the consciousness of its current instant?
    • If a lifetime is a line, your 3D self is a point within this line.

    The thing is, LIFE isn't comprised of a single line. It ain't even a rope, but that'll have to do for the sake of my linguistic limitations.

    Let's picture a super-rope comprised of infinite lines. Each line corresponds to a possible, alternate timeline in which, on the overall probability spectrum, all possibilities are held within such super-rope. So there isn't a single possibility that isn't contained in this super-rope.

    ✼ Is that all?
    No. The super-rope can also vibrate itself in different frequencies, which, in turn, also resonate with all the infinite lines within.

    Does the frequency dictate the number of probabilities within the super-rope? No. However the super-rope vibrates, it still contains every single possible universe with every single possible action or negligence from every single being that lives within it.

    ✼ So, what are the practical implications of this?

    It's simple: you aren't constricted to a single timeline; your 3D perception might be, though.

    ✼ And what does this have to do with justice?

    Well, it's easier to judge the whole by a part or two that appear to be x or y. It's easier to consider everything by the "something" your perception currently has access to.

    ✼ And how to overcome this?

    Humble yourself up. Understand your own limitations while simultaneously understanding that there is what you may term "Divine", in the sense that it ain't simply a pool of "infinite energy" or "infinite intelligence" or "infinite whatever" to tap from. That's a poor term for what it is in Its Totality.

    You facin' an apparently undefeatable circumstance? Humble yourself up. You can't expect to move a mountain without faith, can you?
    Would you, imbued with such faith, move the mountain by yourself, or instead, would the mountain be moved?

    Recognize your limitations so you can work with the best of the tools you have at any given moment. Cooperation.

      •
    Diana (Offline)

    Fringe Dweller
    Posts: 4,580
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    #38
    07-18-2020, 12:23 PM
    (07-18-2020, 05:07 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: "Justice doesn't exist". How do you come to such a conclusion?
    The attribute of what is just or adequate in any given circumstance is a matter of endless debate and weighing on the boring, senseless scales of time and space justice.
    It's easier, from a spiritual perspective, to throw it all on the "you asked for it" rhetoric and leave it like that. Who would dare to explain such an unexplainable thing?

    Well, I'll try.

    It's easy to judge. Easier it is to judge a fractal image by a single pixel instead of "The Whole". Natural; agreeable upon, right?

    Who doesn't agree that the world is filled with suffering? Who doesn't agree that things ain't kinda good the way they are?

    But then, who makes the judgment? A human being? A biased individual? Heck, a 3D entity, whom, in comparison to a mere life's timeline has the consciousness of its current instant?



    • If a lifetime is a line, your 3D self is a point within this line.

    The thing is, LIFE isn't comprised of a single line. It ain't even a rope, but that'll have to do for the sake of my linguistic limitations.

    Let's picture a super-rope comprised of infinite lines. Each line corresponds to a possible, alternate timeline in which, on the overall probability spectrum, all possibilities are held within such super-rope. So there isn't a single possibility that isn't contained in this super-rope.

    ✼ Is that all?
    No. The super-rope can also vibrate itself in different frequencies, which, in turn, also resonate with all the infinite lines within.

    Does the frequency dictate the number of probabilities within the super-rope? No. However the super-rope vibrates, it still contains every single possible universe with every single possible action or negligence from every single being that lives within it.

    ✼ So, what are the practical implications of this?

    It's simple: you aren't constricted to a single timeline; your 3D perception might be, though.

    ✼ And what does this have to do with justice?

    Well, it's easier to judge the whole by a part or two that appear to be x or y. It's easier to consider everything by the "something" your perception currently has access to.

    ✼ And how to overcome this?

    Humble yourself up. Understand your own limitations while simultaneously understanding that there is what you may term "Divine", in the sense that it ain't simply a pool of "infinite energy" or "infinite intelligence" or "infinite whatever" to tap from. That's a poor term for what it is in Its Totality.

    You facin' an apparently undefeatable circumstance? Humble yourself up. You can't expect to move a mountain without faith, can you?
    Would you, imbued with such faith, move the mountain by yourself, or instead, would the mountain be moved?

    Recognize your limitations so you can work with the best of the tools you have at any given moment. Cooperation.

    I don't disagree with any of the above.

    When I mentioned "justice," I was of course referring to human society in this particular timeline. While I may accept this reality/existence—because, it is what it is—I don't have to agree with the way it is set up, even just here, in this particular vibration of this particular timeline. I don't have to think it's okay, no matter what the end game is regarding choice and free will, in any timeline or any pixel of the whole fractal mystery, that it's okay for humans to kill, torture, maim, use, and abuse other life forms—no matter what the timelines or pieces of the whole or the whole may be. 

      •
    meadow-foreigner (Offline)

    Member
    Posts: 264
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    #39
    07-19-2020, 02:12 AM
    (07-18-2020, 12:23 PM)Diana Wrote: When I mentioned "justice," I was of course referring to human society in this particular timeline. While I may accept this reality/existence—because, it is what it is—I don't have to agree with the way it is set up, even just here, in this particular vibration of this particular timeline. I don't have to think it's okay, no matter what the end game is regarding choice and free will, in any timeline or any pixel of the whole fractal mystery, that it's okay for humans to kill, torture, maim, use, and abuse other life forms—no matter what the timelines or pieces of the whole or the whole may be. 

    Absolutely. I don't consider this agreeable; not even acceptable. This is why, technical minutenesses aside, I don't even consider this world to be just, not even in the greater overview of things. I don't consider the measurement/scaling of "deeds" just because a world with 7.6 billion people has an absolutely overwhelming society and you will end up doing lots of bad things even if your heart and your intentions are pure. No matter how "enlightened" one might be; no matter how advanced in the "transcendent ways": were you to live amongst sheer poverty, misery, abuse for a lifetime and chances are that you give in to the violence that is ruling human society.

    What does this have to do with aggression to other life forms such as you mentioned? Everything. Violence is perpetrated and it is self-fueling. The way I currently perceive things, this won't sensibly change for the next millennia. There will still be such aggression; and this "well, you asked for it" attitude that I see in some spiritual groups doesn't contribute to the current state of affairs.

    Throw in your favorite Buddha in nowadays' Beijing, New York, Ciudad del Mexico, Tokyo, or any other big city, with huge contingencies. Let's see how long your "enlightened" being will last without giving in to the aggression and perpetuating it towards other beings.

    You see, I concur with you when you say this isn't agreeable. It really isn't. However, the amount of division that people insist in dwelling on is what makes any significant change unfeasible. So we have two options from such a scenario display:

    • To do something about it or not.

    This is the reason why the Earth's population is still increasing. Timespace souls look at this pandora's panacea and want to do something about it, and oftentimes they end up either adding little to nothing to the overall scenario or worse — they get stuck in the 3D loop because they get so impressed about it that they actually become addicted to it. So, trying to incarnate and "help out" might be a selfless act of foolishness, and that's a bad thing for you.

    But hey, remember that whenever you demand some true justice to the atrocities that are being held on Earth: "you asked for it", and "everyone involved asked for it as well", and for those animals who can't decide for themselves "all is well", "it's all good".

      •
    flofrog (Offline)

    Unclear if frogs wander
    Posts: 3,119
    Threads: 13
    Joined: Dec 2016
    #40
    07-19-2020, 10:28 AM (This post was last modified: 07-19-2020, 10:31 AM by flofrog.)
    Interesting perspective, meadow-foreigner and Diana, but remember that in the end, although each of us, as souls, are mingled with all the others, each equally as unique soul, live in this moment, this now, and in this now I have the option to choose and that choice pertains to the infinite intelligence, and in this one split second we have the enormous power to change the whole progression of the universe, and all this with... intense humility,  lol Wink  BigSmile
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      • ada, meadow-foreigner
    meadow-foreigner (Offline)

    Member
    Posts: 264
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    Joined: Dec 2019
    #41
    07-21-2020, 02:45 AM
    (07-19-2020, 10:28 AM)flofrog Wrote: Interesting perspective, meadow-foreigner and Diana, but remember that in the end, although each of us, as souls, are mingled with all the others, each equally as unique soul, live in this moment, this now, and in this now I have the option to choose and that choice pertains to the infinite intelligence, and in this one split second we have the enormous power to change the whole progression of the universe, and all this with... intense humility,  lol Wink  BigSmile

    Absolutely. That is what differentiates possibility from probability, though probabilistic chances are somewhat dim for humankind, hence my dissatisfaction with how things are. Were humankind to have a chance in infinity to live a dukkha-free world, that would be a possibility. All the other timelines in which that doesn't occur would kinda stack the odds against it, though.
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      • flofrog
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