While I realize that you use the term “you” in a more general sense, I feel can really only address them from my individual point of view.
In my earlier years, I coped by placing blame on everyone and everything else but myself. This resulted in unwanted feelings of anxiety, frustration, shame, regret, and judgement of myself and others, which seemed to go hand in hand with a repeating of what I saw as unwanted patterns at the time. Finally, I was exhausted feeling all those negative emotions, so after long analysis (what I call to “work s*** out” in my head,) I realized wasn’t addressing the one constant in every scenario: me. I can’t control others, but I can control what I do and how I respond to things.
Additionally, I realized while I understood others made mistakes and that was really okay, I’m easy to forgive: I know nobody’s perfect, and everyone’s just doing what they think is right. However, I found I had a hard time forgiving and accepting one of the most important people in my life: myself. When I made a mistake, it was unacceptable, unforgivable even. I strived for perfection of self and the admiration of others in everything I did, and each time I stumbled I was harder on myself. I don’t know the exact chain of events, but at some point as I was working s*** out, I felt a warm wave of relief wash over me (this what I would consider a “level up” as I mentioned earlier.) I’m really no different from anyone else. Why should I do my best to forgive everyone else in my life and not myself? Why I am not allowed to make mistakes and still be accepted just like I do for others? I really couldn’t come up with an answer, so my logic dictated that I can only do my best to forgive, understand and accept (love, even) myself along with everyone else.
Currently, the best I can say is I cope is with the forgiveness, acceptance and understanding (love) of myself and others combined with my internal engine to make choices in any given scenario. If my choices ended up with a result I didn’t intend, for better or worse, I’m still here. And by being here, I’m allowed the opportunity to analyze the whole situation, including what lead up to it as best I can so that I can apply what I learned in the future should I want to avoid a similar situation, or find myself in a similar situation, or if someone asks my advice on a similar situation. It definitely took some time to get to this point, and I still make choices that result in what appears to be undesired outcomes (at the time) but I find it helps every now and then when I feel like I’ve stumbled to remind myself, “It’s okay. You’re doing fine. What did you learn?”
For this question, I’m going to have to refer back to my response above this one.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think I understand what you’re saying here, as I really don’t know how to answer this. Maybe rephrase it?
Along with my first response, I suppose I just rely on the tools I feel I have available to me, as all of them have gotten me to where I’m at, and I’m still around to keep experiencing/learning and help others, if they wish. The tools I have are what I describe as my internal engine: experience, logic, reason and emotion.
Using personal experience, I have in the past, as I suppose a lot of young kids have, both been a bully and have been bullied. By being on both sides of the coin, I learned that while I gained really nothing for myself by being a bully aside from a moment of feeling “power” over another. However, when I was bullied, I felt small, weak, unimportant and insignificant. Those experiences taught me that whatever temporary experience of “power” I felt as a bully (or tyrant,) my sympathy, empathy (or love) of others tells me those negative feelings I’ve personally experienced isn’t right to be imposed on others against their wishes.
Using logic, I apply that same feeling to every situation whether I have personally been on both sides of coin or not. For example, while I have never kidnapped and tortured a person or personally been kidnapped and tortured, I still don’t believe it’s the right way for me to act, as those are still tyrannical acts of power, as I see them. If I can empathize with what can be considered a much lesser act of power imposed on me by being bullied in a schoolyard, I most definitely don’t want to inflict those same acts of imposing power at much more severe degree as I see it.
Using reason, I understand I may find myself in a scenario where I decide it is the right answer to play the role of a tyrant. For example, by stopping a small child who chases a ball into a busy street not yet knowing the potential consequences of doing so, that child and his friends may see me as a tyrant, as I’ve imposed unwanted (at the time) power over him and stopped him from doing what he wanted to do. I imposed my will on another person, which is something I find much discomfort in doing, as I believe in free will; however, my sense of reason in this scenario dictates to me that this act of tyranny was the right thing to do. Additionally, the child’s parents may view that act of “tyranny” as acceptable or even desired, if they decide it was of assistance to them.
Using emotion, in this same scenario, I find can still “act a tyrant” without anger and malice, but with love and understanding. And through this focused understanding that the child is simply being a child, I’m better able to communicate the reasoning for my actions with the child and others who may perceived me as a tyrant at the time. I find I’m able to communicate substantially better when I don't feel distracted by emotions like anger, irritation and annoyance.
The best I can answer this is to refer back to my original response.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Could you describe what you call The Source?
I generally experience uneasiness or discomfort in interjecting myself in others’ lives, unsolicited. I feel like the guy in the truck showing up uninvited to a vegan’s front door hawking vacuum-sealed T-bones. So, aside from polite greetings, I generally don’t initiate engagement with others aside those few close to me. If I do decide to engage someone I don’t know, this is typically when my internal engine has signaled me to do so: I know when it feels right to reach out, as I have a feeling or get a sort of internal nag. If I choose ignore that feeling, I tend to feel uneasy about it, not right with myself. Off balance. This is when I would go back to analyzing what led up to that feeling and how I could do things differently in the future to avoid that uneasy feeling. I find I experience this most when I feel someone wants my help, but I’ve decided I’m too busy with myself. On the flip side, if I choose engage unsolicited, discussions seem contrived and forced, and few leave me with a positive feelings afterwards. After analysis of those encounters, I typically find that I felt like I was forcing unwanted interaction.
In open forums such as this, I feel comfortable openly and actively engaging, as the very existence of an open forum logically tells me that any and all dialog (within the parameters of the forum) are welcomed.
I also feel actively engaging those few I am luckily enough to consider friends. Throughout the years (even decades,) we’ve come to an understanding that any form of directly engaging one another on any topic they wish to speak about is not only appropriate, but desired. I reach out to them whenever it feels right, and them to me. Maybe I haven’t heard from someone in a while and it just feels right to send them a meme or joke I think they’d enjoy. For better or worse, I have a very take-it-or-leave-it approach to who I am as a person and very few have taken it, most have left it. I cherish those few to still choose to be my friend.
For anyone else who directly engages me, either online, in the face, etc., this is when I rely on my internal engine as to how to respond. One example could be a senior citizen vet, who, after a simple “good morning” during a chance encounter while out walking my dog, spontaneously engaged me in conversation. I had many opportunities to choose to disengage and get on with my own day, but my internal engine told me that this person seemed to really need an ear at this point in time, and it felt right to lend it. For 45 minutes, he provided his views on topics such as dogs, current events, his service to the country, and racial matters among other things. I interacted as best I could with my own perspective, even though it varied somewhat from his, especially on the race topic. There was no argument, but simple sharing of two perspectives, and we both went own our ways having learned something from the interaction.
This may seem an odd example, but it stands out in my mind at this time: a crow or similar looking bird landed on my leg in my back yard. When I looked at him (or her) it appeared his wing was injured. He didn’t attack or peck at me, he didn’t chirp, he just jumped to ground and then up on a short fence a little ways from me and stood there. My internal engine told me this crow seemed to asking for some sort of assistance with its wing and it felt right to try and help him as best I can. I live a block from a vet, so the crow allowed me to scoop him up into my hand, place him in a loose bag and take him to the vet. At the vet, I placed the bird in the palm of my hand to show the vet his wing and the bird just stood there waiting. The vet eventually told me they wanted nothing to do with the bird as they didn’t treat wild animals, so they suggested I call the wildlife department. Outside, I made the call while the bird stood next to me on the curb in the parking lot. They said if the bird wasn’t attacking anyone, there was nothing they would do. Kind of at a loss, I allowed the crow to get back into the palm of my hand and headed home. While walking, I considered other things I could do for him to help, such as rinse his wing off and clean it, but it didn’t make sense to take it inside, as I have cats. Eventually, the thought went through my mind of, “man, what am I gonna do with this guy?” and as soon as I finished the thought, the bird flew off from the palm of my hand on his own and landed in a distant tree and didn’t come back. When I told this story to my friends and family, the main consensus was that firstly, they almost wouldn't have believed it had I not taken a picture of the bird in my hand. And second, the whole thing was borderline ridiculous to them because I went so far out of my way in attempt to help some random bird. All, I could say is that since that bird seemed to be in dire enough straits to come to someone like me, it just felt like the right thing to do.
I’ve asked myself this question at different points in my life: “Why go on? Why not just end yourself?” I’ve asked myself this in my darkest states, during my time of numbness and even during my times of contentment. And each time, I end up with the same logical outcome: if I’m here, but I don’t know for what purpose, then my purpose is simply to be here. To experience this life as my internal engine drives me and do what I feel is right. In my darkest times, what felt right was to not inflict upon those few who still chose to be in my life, the trauma and fallout of dealing with my suicide. I saw that I could still bring them happiness just by being me, and I saw to end myself is to end that happiness I still could provide for them, and everyone else I chance to meet in the future. I suppose this could be considered love of others.
Once I got past that step, I had to consider what if I no longer had those people, or anyone, in my life and it was just me? My logic told me that if chose to end myself, what new experiences would I unknowingly miss out on that could eventually result in personal peace and happiness for myself? Like I was reading a book and if I closed it halfway through, I’d never know how the story ended. I realize there are still surprises, there is still the potential to find personal peace and happiness, so maybe I should just finish the story and find out. Besides, who’s to say, but me, whether or not I'm worthy of even obtaining that peace and happiness? I suppose this could be considered love of self.
Thanks so much again for the dialogue; this back-and-forth allows me to better organize and communicate my thoughts. Aside from my responses to your specific questions, I’ll think on all that you’ve written. Work s*** out.
(07-15-2020, 08:44 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Being aware at all times, to act based on your own experience and your judgment of what feels appropriate. However (and there's always a however, right?), how do you cope with the fact that you're limited; that the best of your judgment, your reason, the most sincere and honest intentions sometimes won't just do it?
In my earlier years, I coped by placing blame on everyone and everything else but myself. This resulted in unwanted feelings of anxiety, frustration, shame, regret, and judgement of myself and others, which seemed to go hand in hand with a repeating of what I saw as unwanted patterns at the time. Finally, I was exhausted feeling all those negative emotions, so after long analysis (what I call to “work s*** out” in my head,) I realized wasn’t addressing the one constant in every scenario: me. I can’t control others, but I can control what I do and how I respond to things.
Additionally, I realized while I understood others made mistakes and that was really okay, I’m easy to forgive: I know nobody’s perfect, and everyone’s just doing what they think is right. However, I found I had a hard time forgiving and accepting one of the most important people in my life: myself. When I made a mistake, it was unacceptable, unforgivable even. I strived for perfection of self and the admiration of others in everything I did, and each time I stumbled I was harder on myself. I don’t know the exact chain of events, but at some point as I was working s*** out, I felt a warm wave of relief wash over me (this what I would consider a “level up” as I mentioned earlier.) I’m really no different from anyone else. Why should I do my best to forgive everyone else in my life and not myself? Why I am not allowed to make mistakes and still be accepted just like I do for others? I really couldn’t come up with an answer, so my logic dictated that I can only do my best to forgive, understand and accept (love, even) myself along with everyone else.
Currently, the best I can say is I cope is with the forgiveness, acceptance and understanding (love) of myself and others combined with my internal engine to make choices in any given scenario. If my choices ended up with a result I didn’t intend, for better or worse, I’m still here. And by being here, I’m allowed the opportunity to analyze the whole situation, including what lead up to it as best I can so that I can apply what I learned in the future should I want to avoid a similar situation, or find myself in a similar situation, or if someone asks my advice on a similar situation. It definitely took some time to get to this point, and I still make choices that result in what appears to be undesired outcomes (at the time) but I find it helps every now and then when I feel like I’ve stumbled to remind myself, “It’s okay. You’re doing fine. What did you learn?”
(07-15-2020, 08:44 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Among these "what ifs" that you put: 'what if' you misjudge or simply fail in your attempt to serve? How do you deal with the fact that fallibility is intrinsic to the human nature, and that no matter what density you're originally from, how many millions of years you have in your spiritual curriculum, you're still prone to failure, to unbalanced acts, to blunders and equivoques?
For this question, I’m going to have to refer back to my response above this one.
(07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: How do you cope with your own fallibility? How do you assimilate that, sometimes, the desire to "help" others is simply a projection from within, a desire to express your feelings and let them be echoed back to you?
I’m sorry, but I don’t think I understand what you’re saying here, as I really don’t know how to answer this. Maybe rephrase it?
(07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Do you rely solely on your own instincts to discern what is good and what is not?
Along with my first response, I suppose I just rely on the tools I feel I have available to me, as all of them have gotten me to where I’m at, and I’m still around to keep experiencing/learning and help others, if they wish. The tools I have are what I describe as my internal engine: experience, logic, reason and emotion.
Using personal experience, I have in the past, as I suppose a lot of young kids have, both been a bully and have been bullied. By being on both sides of the coin, I learned that while I gained really nothing for myself by being a bully aside from a moment of feeling “power” over another. However, when I was bullied, I felt small, weak, unimportant and insignificant. Those experiences taught me that whatever temporary experience of “power” I felt as a bully (or tyrant,) my sympathy, empathy (or love) of others tells me those negative feelings I’ve personally experienced isn’t right to be imposed on others against their wishes.
Using logic, I apply that same feeling to every situation whether I have personally been on both sides of coin or not. For example, while I have never kidnapped and tortured a person or personally been kidnapped and tortured, I still don’t believe it’s the right way for me to act, as those are still tyrannical acts of power, as I see them. If I can empathize with what can be considered a much lesser act of power imposed on me by being bullied in a schoolyard, I most definitely don’t want to inflict those same acts of imposing power at much more severe degree as I see it.
Using reason, I understand I may find myself in a scenario where I decide it is the right answer to play the role of a tyrant. For example, by stopping a small child who chases a ball into a busy street not yet knowing the potential consequences of doing so, that child and his friends may see me as a tyrant, as I’ve imposed unwanted (at the time) power over him and stopped him from doing what he wanted to do. I imposed my will on another person, which is something I find much discomfort in doing, as I believe in free will; however, my sense of reason in this scenario dictates to me that this act of tyranny was the right thing to do. Additionally, the child’s parents may view that act of “tyranny” as acceptable or even desired, if they decide it was of assistance to them.
Using emotion, in this same scenario, I find can still “act a tyrant” without anger and malice, but with love and understanding. And through this focused understanding that the child is simply being a child, I’m better able to communicate the reasoning for my actions with the child and others who may perceived me as a tyrant at the time. I find I’m able to communicate substantially better when I don't feel distracted by emotions like anger, irritation and annoyance.
(07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: From the aforementioned premise, of human fallibility, you should also take into account your own limits. Sometimes your very best capability won't just do it. What do you do, then? Shall the burdens of life become too great for you to bear — what do you do?
The best I can answer this is to refer back to my original response.
(07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: How often do you turn yourself towards The Source?
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Could you describe what you call The Source?
(07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: Absolutely. Would you mind sharing more examples of such a display?
I generally experience uneasiness or discomfort in interjecting myself in others’ lives, unsolicited. I feel like the guy in the truck showing up uninvited to a vegan’s front door hawking vacuum-sealed T-bones. So, aside from polite greetings, I generally don’t initiate engagement with others aside those few close to me. If I do decide to engage someone I don’t know, this is typically when my internal engine has signaled me to do so: I know when it feels right to reach out, as I have a feeling or get a sort of internal nag. If I choose ignore that feeling, I tend to feel uneasy about it, not right with myself. Off balance. This is when I would go back to analyzing what led up to that feeling and how I could do things differently in the future to avoid that uneasy feeling. I find I experience this most when I feel someone wants my help, but I’ve decided I’m too busy with myself. On the flip side, if I choose engage unsolicited, discussions seem contrived and forced, and few leave me with a positive feelings afterwards. After analysis of those encounters, I typically find that I felt like I was forcing unwanted interaction.
In open forums such as this, I feel comfortable openly and actively engaging, as the very existence of an open forum logically tells me that any and all dialog (within the parameters of the forum) are welcomed.
I also feel actively engaging those few I am luckily enough to consider friends. Throughout the years (even decades,) we’ve come to an understanding that any form of directly engaging one another on any topic they wish to speak about is not only appropriate, but desired. I reach out to them whenever it feels right, and them to me. Maybe I haven’t heard from someone in a while and it just feels right to send them a meme or joke I think they’d enjoy. For better or worse, I have a very take-it-or-leave-it approach to who I am as a person and very few have taken it, most have left it. I cherish those few to still choose to be my friend.
For anyone else who directly engages me, either online, in the face, etc., this is when I rely on my internal engine as to how to respond. One example could be a senior citizen vet, who, after a simple “good morning” during a chance encounter while out walking my dog, spontaneously engaged me in conversation. I had many opportunities to choose to disengage and get on with my own day, but my internal engine told me that this person seemed to really need an ear at this point in time, and it felt right to lend it. For 45 minutes, he provided his views on topics such as dogs, current events, his service to the country, and racial matters among other things. I interacted as best I could with my own perspective, even though it varied somewhat from his, especially on the race topic. There was no argument, but simple sharing of two perspectives, and we both went own our ways having learned something from the interaction.
This may seem an odd example, but it stands out in my mind at this time: a crow or similar looking bird landed on my leg in my back yard. When I looked at him (or her) it appeared his wing was injured. He didn’t attack or peck at me, he didn’t chirp, he just jumped to ground and then up on a short fence a little ways from me and stood there. My internal engine told me this crow seemed to asking for some sort of assistance with its wing and it felt right to try and help him as best I can. I live a block from a vet, so the crow allowed me to scoop him up into my hand, place him in a loose bag and take him to the vet. At the vet, I placed the bird in the palm of my hand to show the vet his wing and the bird just stood there waiting. The vet eventually told me they wanted nothing to do with the bird as they didn’t treat wild animals, so they suggested I call the wildlife department. Outside, I made the call while the bird stood next to me on the curb in the parking lot. They said if the bird wasn’t attacking anyone, there was nothing they would do. Kind of at a loss, I allowed the crow to get back into the palm of my hand and headed home. While walking, I considered other things I could do for him to help, such as rinse his wing off and clean it, but it didn’t make sense to take it inside, as I have cats. Eventually, the thought went through my mind of, “man, what am I gonna do with this guy?” and as soon as I finished the thought, the bird flew off from the palm of my hand on his own and landed in a distant tree and didn’t come back. When I told this story to my friends and family, the main consensus was that firstly, they almost wouldn't have believed it had I not taken a picture of the bird in my hand. And second, the whole thing was borderline ridiculous to them because I went so far out of my way in attempt to help some random bird. All, I could say is that since that bird seemed to be in dire enough straits to come to someone like me, it just felt like the right thing to do.
(07-14-2020, 07:50 AM)meadow-foreigner Wrote: I'd like you, Elle, to respond based on your accumulated feelings and perceptions about the world you've lived in so far. After going through so much hassle, so much trouble, so much oscillation; after being mistreated by human society as a whole, why would you bother to help the old lady at the grocery store; why would you bother to share anything; why wouldn't you simply recrudesce instead of growing? Why do you insist in getting up even though you've fallen again and again and again?
I’ve asked myself this question at different points in my life: “Why go on? Why not just end yourself?” I’ve asked myself this in my darkest states, during my time of numbness and even during my times of contentment. And each time, I end up with the same logical outcome: if I’m here, but I don’t know for what purpose, then my purpose is simply to be here. To experience this life as my internal engine drives me and do what I feel is right. In my darkest times, what felt right was to not inflict upon those few who still chose to be in my life, the trauma and fallout of dealing with my suicide. I saw that I could still bring them happiness just by being me, and I saw to end myself is to end that happiness I still could provide for them, and everyone else I chance to meet in the future. I suppose this could be considered love of others.
Once I got past that step, I had to consider what if I no longer had those people, or anyone, in my life and it was just me? My logic told me that if chose to end myself, what new experiences would I unknowingly miss out on that could eventually result in personal peace and happiness for myself? Like I was reading a book and if I closed it halfway through, I’d never know how the story ended. I realize there are still surprises, there is still the potential to find personal peace and happiness, so maybe I should just finish the story and find out. Besides, who’s to say, but me, whether or not I'm worthy of even obtaining that peace and happiness? I suppose this could be considered love of self.
Thanks so much again for the dialogue; this back-and-forth allows me to better organize and communicate my thoughts. Aside from my responses to your specific questions, I’ll think on all that you’ve written. Work s*** out.